[The Wiry Irishman]

I'm pondering my firearm want list, and near the top of the list is an inexpensive over/under to shoot skeet with. I know there's a few models out there for under 500, but I don't know anything about them.

I order of priority I want:

1) Reliability. Goes bang every time, won't break under normal shooting conditions. Its not going to be kicking around the back of a pickup or anything, it'll live in its case.

2) Long barrel. Any recommendations for ideal length?

3) I don't know the technical term, but an ejector that when you fire one shell and crack open the gun to reload, it only ejects the spent shell.

One or two triggers doesn't matter, and I'm not particularly concerned with removable/replaceable chokes. This will be purely a fun gun, and I'm not expecting much out of it other that reliability. I don't need or want a gun to go hunting quail with Lord Percy Fancypantserton out on the shire, but if anyone can give some good reasons to look at a gun over 500 bucks, feel free to recommend one. I'm just starting my search, so I'm open to suggestion, and not adverse to saving for a while longer if it gets me a significant jump in quality.

EDITED TO ADD: I'd be using the gun just for skeet shooting, so how easy it is to carry in the field or how effective it would be for hunting isn't much of a concern.

[jesse485]

I love my Stoeger Condor, but only extractors, no ejectors. It was my first gun almost 9 years ago, and it is still running strong.

[birdbustr]

I know this isn't what you are looking for, but to me all O/U are overpriced.

When you compare them to a semi-auto or even a pump you have to consider that 1) you are not going to have that 3rd shot, or even more if unplugged 2) The only advantage to having 2 barrels is that you can have two different chokes at your disposal. 3) you are probably going to pay twice as much for an O/U, and why? 4) A shotgun is something that you do not need to be super accurate (like bolt rifles compared to semi-auto rifles).

There must be something with all of the "world-class" trapshooters that you see on TV with their O/U shotguns, but to me, when I weigh the pros and cons of O/U vs a semi-auto or pump it just doesn't add up.

[ArmedBear]

you are probably going to pay twice as much for an O/U, and why?

LOL Shoot a few good ones.:)

A decent O/U has wonderful handling characteristics. A shotgun is not just a tube that throws lead out one end. Well, my 870 Express is. Never again will I try to hunt birds with a very short shot window with that slug.

An O/U is much, much quicker and easier to clean than a semiauto. Well, Benellis don't take much cleaning, but they are priced like field O/U's.

It's easy and quick to unload and reload, no fumbling, no shoving in shells backwards. Yes I have done that, and it's cost me a bird.

That second choke is worth more than that third shot, if you hunt quail here, and we have to hunt with plugged guns regardless of what we're hunting. Even deer.

Everyone likes something different, but an O/U has its merits that aren't obvious from watching it on TV.

That said, SKB makes reasonably-priced, reliable O/U's. I have one I bought well-used; it's 30 years old. It still works like a champ. Nice balance, excellent function and durability. The similar current model 505 $1100 new, or so. These are "forever guns."

For a new gun, $1100 IS reasonably priced. $500 might just be "cheap."

I'm not sure that an O/U for $500 new is going to be the best choice over time. I've known people who regretted not saving a bit more or buying used. YMMV

[Dave McCracken]

Cheap O/Us are rarely good, good O/Us are rarely cheap.

With all due respect to those who differ, cheap O/Us seem to be money traps.

Durability is suspect. Reliability, well, look at the old threads about Condors and Silver Reserves.

Once you get up to the level of Rugers and SKBs, durability and reliability greatly improve.

As for barrel length, 30" is the minimum I'd go on a gamer gun. My B-gun has 32" tubes and handles as fast as I need it to. Maybe faster.

Selective ejectors are nice. Most skeet fans relaod their hulls, so extractors will work also.

And AB, pop a Light Contour barrel on that 870 and watch your Clydesdale shotgun turn into a cutting horse.4-6 oz less weight in the front end will do that....

[Pete409]

To the Wiry Irishman,

No offense intended, but it's pretty clear that you don't really know what you are looking for. Therefore, I'll make some suggestions that will likely save you considerable money and grief (over the long haul).

If you intend to use your gun for more than just an occasional round of skeet every few months, forget about guns under $500 (new). Decent quality O/U's start at about $1,200 minimum. If you go on up to about $1,600 then you'll do even better as far as reliability, serviceability, availability of replacement parts, and resaleability. Also, don't overlook the possibility of a good used Browning, Beretta, or Weatherby. You can get some excellent buys on these guns, use them for several years, and then resell them for what you paid for them. Buying a good quality used O/U is not like buying a used car. The guns are far more reliable, have less problems, and hold their value much better. In fact, you might even make money on the used gun deal if you buy wisely.

You do NOT want double triggers on a skeet gun. Completely banish that idea from your mind.

The most popular barrel length and easiest to resell (on an O/U) is 30" barrels. If it's strictly for skeet use, 28" barrels work well too, but they are less popular as far as resale is concerned.

You DO want to get a gun with selective ejectors.

Welcome to the world of shotgun shooting sports. :)

[The Wiry Irishman]

No offense intended, but it's pretty clear that you don't really know what you are looking for.

None taken. You're exactly right.


If you intend to use your gun for more than just an occasional round of skeet every few months, forget about guns under $500 (new).

Forgot to put that in my original post. Used is definitely an option too. In all likelihood, the gun will only get used once a month tops, as I'm currently in college and the nearest public range is over an hour away. From everyone's replies and my thread searching, it seems like my best bet might be pick up an inexpensive HD pump now (which was next on my list after the O/U) and shoot skeet with that while I save for a worthwhile O/U. (Yeah, you can break skeet with a 590, you just gotta be quick)

More feedback would be appreciated.

[oletymer]

Who make reasonably priced reliable O/Us? Beretta and Browning.

[MCgunner]

When you compare them to a semi-auto or even a pump you have to consider that 1) you are not going to have that 3rd shot, or even more if unplugged 2) The only advantage to having 2 barrels is that you can have two different chokes at your disposal. 3) you are probably going to pay twice as much for an O/U, and why? 4) A shotgun is something that you do not need to be super accurate (like bolt rifles compared to semi-auto rifles).

Like the harley guys say, if you yu have to ask, you don't understand. Of course, I've ridden harleys and still don't understand, but this is a gun board.:D

Me, I don't own an OU. I was favorably impressed with the $400 Yildiz that Academy sells, but i bought a coach gun, instead, fits what I needed more and I like double trigger side by sides, not a skeet shooter, never fired a round of skeet in my life. I hunt, that's what I do, and that double trigger comes in handy bird hunting, instant choke choice.

Now, I have no idea how many rounds a $400 Yildiz could stand up to vs a Browning Citori or Ruger Red Label, but I'd be willing to wager in MY hands, it'd out-last ME. I might fire 6 boxes through it a year if I really get into it. LOL I shoot other guns for waterfowl, have several other guns. That Yildiz sure felt good to swing, has a single trigger (selective), but makes up for that with auto ejectors. I might get one. I want an OU and don't have a hollywood income. I'm not a world class skeet shooting superstar, either, just an old bird hunter. I don't need no stinkin' superposed.

[TrapperReady]

Just to play the Devil's Advocate...

1) you are not going to have that 3rd shot, or even more if unplugged

It's rare that I see good hits with the third shot (or beyond). Most birds are felled with the first or second shot. Oftentimes, the third shot is just expensive noise, with the possibility of a weak hit at a bird already out of range.

2) The only advantage to having 2 barrels is that you can have two different chokes at your disposal.

That's one advantage. Another is that I prefer the balance of a well-made O/U over that of most repeaters. Other factors to consider are: ease of cleaning, ease of reloading, durability, and not having to hunt around for your shells (or leave them littering the landscape).

3) you are probably going to pay twice as much for an O/U, and why?

It's more complicated to manufacture a well-regulated gun with two barrels. However, if you prefer the way that they handle and operate, then it may well be worth it. Depending upon what games you want to play, an O/U can be fitted with sub-gauge tubes, or even extra barrel-sets to allow you to shoot in a wider range of events. My Kolar has 12ga main barrels, with a set of carrier barrels and tubes in .410, 28ga and 20ga. The weights are carefully matched and there is no change in how the gun handles between the four gauges. If you were to do the same thing with four different 1100s (as some skeet shooters often do), the handling from gun to gun will be different.

4) A shotgun is something that you do not need to be super accurate (like bolt rifles compared to semi-auto rifles).

True. However, they do perform better when manufactured to higher standards and tolerances. For example, mirror-smooth bores and gentle forcing cones are often a good thing. I've seen poorly made guns throw patterns widely divergent from where they should. This can be the result of crooked choke tubes, off-center bores or a number of other issues. I've seen ribs on brand-new Remington 870s that looked like someone glued a Twizzler on top of the barrel.

At the most basic level, shotguns need to do two things: shoot where you point them and not fall apart. The first is why fit is so important. With an ill-fitting rifle, you can still line up the sights and get on target. With an ill-fitting shotgun, you can have perfect form, perfect target focus and still miss by a wide margin.

In terms of not falling apart, shotguns tend to be used a lot more than rifles. For example, when I was shooting service-rifle matches, I'd run through a couple thousand rounds in a year. Shooting sporting clays, I shoot a couple thousand shells a month for most of the year. At some competitions, I may shoot nearly a thousand in under a week. In terms of durability, my O/U has a truly massive action, and doesn't show any sign of wear. However, its balance and handling is ideal for clay target shooting. I've used autos in the past, and they just plain don't work as well for me.

BTW, when shooting in sporting clays tournaments, it is remarkable how often you'll see people having trouble with autos. It is just as remarkable how few problems you see with O/Us.

Now, all that being said, I don't like cheap O/Us. I've handled a lot and shot a few, and I'm just not impressed. I think for an O/U, you realistically need to be in the $1500 range and up for new, and $1000 and up for used. I like Berettas and Brownings at that end, with Guerini being a very nice option at a little higher price.

Compared to some of the prices for foreign-made autos these days... that's not a huge jump. Compared to an 870 Express, it is.

IMO, if someone is looking to buy a gun for $500 or less, then they should look closely at new pumps (or used Wingmasters). For $1000 or less, then a used Browning or Beretta O/U can be found. Otherwise, a tough to beat gun would be the Beretta 391 Urika. At $1500 or a little more, there are a bunch of options.

[selinoid44]

Check out my thread about the SPR310. I've gotten pretty good feedback on this overunder. I'm going to look at them this weekend.

[ArmedBear]

Check out my thread about the SPR310. I've gotten pretty good feedback on this overunder. I'm going to look at them this weekend.

We have them in rental service at the club where I'm on the board.

Not only are they the ugliest O/U's I've ever seen, but let's just say they are not without their reliability problems.

IMO, a reasonably-priced, reliable O/U can be bought from SKB, Browning, Winchester, Beretta. I've seen the new Model 101 on sale here for $1499 and they throw in a case of AA's: http://www.turners.com/engage/displayad2.php?H=1&m1=January&m2=January&d1=25&d2=31&img=ads/1-25-08/winchmodel101.gif

"Reasonable" starts just over a grand, with the SKB 505, an excellent gun, well-balanced, no frills but very well built. I have the nearly-identical Ithaca/SKB 500; it's doing well after 30 years.

Under a grand new, and you're probably buying something cheap, not getting a good value.

(Beretta used to market a no-frills 686 field gun, same underlying gun design and quality as a White Onyx but with matte blue and plain walnut. Unfortunately, they quit selling it. For a good, functional gun, where you didn't pay any extra for fancy appearance, it was probably the best thing out there.)

[The Wiry Irishman]

When I first starting to get into guns, I wanted a Beretta 92/96 because I loved shooting my friend's, but that went out the window when I fell in love with 1911s. Saving up for a decent over/under could have the fringe benefit of being able to say I own a Beretta...

[Barr]

Look at the CZ series of shotguns. They are much better than the baseline shotguns and do not cost as much as a Browning. They run 550-1000 dollars.

[MCgunner]

No problems with my Spartan side by side. It ain't real pretty, but it works just fine. I'd sure look at the 310 if you want a down and dirty field gun.

[The Wiry Irishman]

Look at the CZ series of shotguns. They are much better than the baseline shotguns and do not cost as much as a Browning. They run 550-1000 dollars.

Anyone else have anything to say about the CZs? Their pistols and rifles seem to have quality above their price point, is the same true of their shotguns?

[kentucky_smith]

CDNN is blowing out a bunch of Fausti's right now, might look there.

yankeeartifacts.com has a few used guns right now that are interesting.

[ArmedBear]

CZ does not make shotguns. The quality and longevity of their shotguns has no relation to what we've learned to expect from their rifles and pistols.

They badge and sell Huglu shotguns from Turkey. Fit and finish is pretty, especially on the upgraded models.

Some people have had good luck with them. They haven't been out very long in CZ trim. Huglus, like other Turkish mass production guns, have had a reputation for a lot of breakdowns in the past. The shotgunners I know who know machine work and dabble in gunsmithing wouldn't consider buying a Turkish gun, because they've seen them over the years and universally just mutter, "Junk" when you ask about a Huglu.

Rumor has it that Turkish manufacturers are making much better guns now (as opposed to two years ago). Also, a company like CZ will often go through a "sourced" gun and insist on spec changes if there are problems they see.

That said, I'm not too thrilled to put down my cash on a gun that supposedly is a lot better than it used to be, when I can buy a gun that has been proven over several decades and millions of rounds, like, say, an SKB, which isn't that much more than the CZ's.

Then again, if the guns really are a lot better than they used to be, you might get a genuine bargain. Note how much more a CZ rifle or pistol goes for, now that the word is out. I guess, in the words of Clint, "you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

I do keep thinking about getting a CZ SxS, because they are much less expensive than other nice-looking, well-balanced doubles. They are both pretty and balanced. But one reason is that I wouldn't anticipate putting as many rounds through a SxS anyway. It would be strictly an upland hunting gun, carried much, shot quickly but not that often.

They seem well-made enough that I wouldn't anticipate any problems if I'm putting no more than a few hundred rounds per year through them. Range use, though, quickly adds up to thousands, then tens of thousands, even for a casual shooter.:)

[The Wiry Irishman]

ArmedBear - Good to know, thanks. Chancing quality to save a little money isn't really my thing.

[JohnBT]

"I like Berettas and Brownings at that end, with Guerini being a very nice option at a little higher price."

I wish you hadn't said that word. For 2 days I've been trying to forget that I know where there's a very lightly used Guerini Summit Limited with 34" barrels for $2500. I wonder if they'd knock another hundred or two off? Probably not at that price. Hmmm.

FWIW, I don't know a thing about the under-$1000 O/Us.

John

[Joe the Redneck]

I'll take the othere POV.

You won't know what you need until you start. Look for one of those Ruskie imports, see if you can get a used one.

Use the gun for awhile, see what you like about it, what you don't. And see if you want to keep with the sport.

Then sell it off and drop the real money. the grim reality of any "proper" double barreled weapon is that they cost big bucks. Anything under a grand gets real iffy. This way, you will no if you really want to invest that much money in the gun.

I remember once, years ago, I held a titanium O/U from Weatherby. Ahhhhh, it was something. You really could tell where the money went.

Joe

[redneck2]

For a couple of years I shot sporting clays with an 870. After all, I used it all the time. How much better could two barrels be than one? Typical scores in the mid 40's to maybe mid 50's.

Then I shot a round with a guy that had a Browning O/U. He let me borrow his gun for 2 stations and I cleaned 20 straight.

I now have a Weatherby Orion II (made by SKB). Even shooting occasionally, I can break mid 80's or better.

I suspect that guys here that tell you a pump or auto is just as good haven't used a good double that fit well.

[glockster157]

I bought a Yildiz 20 ga O/U from Academy Sports a couple of months ago and I love it. It is light, tight but most important, it has very nice fit and finish. Does'nt hurt that it has pretty wood and a 3 year warranty from Briley. I have shot it quite a bit, about 400 rounds, since I got it and it has not missed a beat.

[Ed/Pa]

Had to jump in .........Have both ....cheap and not so cheap.

IMO , it all depends on what you want to use the gun for and how much it will be shot.

Cheap
Example: Mossberg silver reserve....very limited use on the skeet range and maybe a bird hunt once a year. I've put maybe 1500 rounds through it in 2 yrs and it wont see that many in another 2 yrs. After 1000 rounds one broken firing pin (repaired cheap). Conclusion a cheap gun ok for limited use and used as such will last a relatively long time.

Not so Cheap
Example : Browning Citori ....Used mostly for Trap and occassional sporting clays. Moderate-Heavy use .probably put 6000 rounds through it over the past year. Built like a tank. The gun was built in 1991 no idea how many rounds have cycled through it. No problems with the gun what so ever and the action is still tight. Will probably out live me.

So there's a little in-sight. If your gonna shoot the h-ll out of it you'll need to spend alot more than 500. On the other hand if your gonna shoot it a couple times a year or very light use than the other route might fit your needs.

[ArmedBear]

And AB, pop a Light Contour barrel on that 870 and watch your Clydesdale shotgun turn into a cutting horse.4-6 oz less weight in the front end will do that....

Oh, I know. I have an old 1100 with a 28" fixed Modified plain barrel (no rib). That thing, despite its hefty overall weight, actually works well on quail.

I just have to use a padded sling to carry it all day, or the little muscles in my arms get fatigued from the thing and my shooting suffers. But the gun handles quite well.

A friend has a Wingmaster with the LC barrel and it is a whole different feel from my Express, but I now have other guns, and the LC barrel costs as much as the whole Express did.:)

I think it's going to be relegated to HD and waterfowl duty (and if I see a Wingmaster LC for a good price, I'll get it).

All of that said, the Express actually works quite well for trap.

[RNB65]

Browning, Beretta, and Ruger.
-

[TX1911fan]

Another vote for Yildiz. For once or twice a month to the range, and maybe once or twice in the field, you can't beat $400. They look good, carry well, shoot well. I've had mine for two years and have had no problems.

[Dave McCracken]

Understood, AB. The cut down Express barrel (To 21") that was Frankenstein's first here weighs within an oz of what the 30" trap barrel on the TB does.

Best guess, the uncut weight was a good half lb heavier. That's a lot hanging on the front of a quail gun.

After some use, the 26" LC barrel here feels a touch whippy. Maybe I shoulda gotten a 28" instead.

[arflattop]

Wiry, I learned to shoot skeet and trap with an 870 Remington. It's tougher than an O/U, but it's almost more rewarding when you go straight. When I could afford it, I bought a 20ga Ruger Red Label O/U and have been very pleased with the firearm. I recently bought a 12ga for $1378 -- but I've seen the stainless models with synthetic stocks for much less. Enjoy what you buy -- good luck!

[The Wiry Irishman]

Wiry, I learned to shoot skeet and trap with an 870 Remington. It's tougher than an O/U, but it's almost more rewarding when you go straight.

I can definitely relate. The vast majority of my skeet shooting has been done with either a Mossberg 590 or an 18" coach gun. It sure teaches you to be fast.

I guess I'll just have to try to shoot a few of the guns mentioned here and see what I like. If it takes $1200 to get a quality enjoyable gun, so be it, I'll save for a while longer. I was planning this purchase for several months in the future anyway. I appreciate the advice everyone's given me.

[graybeard321]

I would recommend a Stoeger Condor (combo). It comes with a 12 and 20 ga barrel. Mine come with 28 inch barrel. I know they now make one with the 30 inch Barrel. I have used mine for over 3 years and hav fired about 10000 rounds and have never had a problem. My Wife purchased a Weatherby O/U for me at about 3 times the price and it may look better and have ejectors, but I don't hit any more birds with it then my stoeger. My next shoot gun purchase with be the Condor combo with the 30 inch barrels.

[Kimber1911_06238]

+1 to what dave mccracken said. I have a winchester 101 (hardly a top shelf over/under), but not a cheapo either. that gun handles amazingly. far better than my bps.

if you're gonna get an o/u, spend the money on at least a mid-grade gun. you won't be disappointed

[Red Label]

Still got my Red Label and I still love it! You can check my threads back over the years and not find one time I have not been happy with it! 30" Sporting model 12ga. I am still in love with it after 6 years! No it wasn't a cheapo but it wasn't expensive either. It also wasn't made in China! It was made in the good old USA!:cool::cool::cool:

[GeezerwithGuns]

I just purchased a Browning Citori GTS in 12ga. I was looking for a dual-purpose gun that I could shoot clay and hunt with. The GTS fills that bill. For example, I wanted 30" non-ported barrels. I could only get the Browning 525 with porting. I also like the stock dimensions of the GTS better as well. In addition, it is chambered for 3" shells if the need ever presents itself. I picked it up as a year end close-out at $1550. MSRP is $2210. I feel like I got an outstanding "deal." :D

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c355/geezer99/GTS.jpg