[Dollar An Hour]

I'm considering a Colt DS 3rd generation blue, shrouded barrel in a trade deal for my pre-lock 442. What do I need to know about these guns?

Are they ok with +P loads? Mellower shooter than a J-Frame I presume?

Is good leather still easy to find? Probably would like a high OWB such as Kramer.

Is the trigger pull similar to a J-frame? I remember hearing that Colt lockwork produces a different 'feeling' trigger pull than S&W.

Is having a Colt in the collection a good idea?

What else? Thanks guys. :D

[Matt Almeda]

Hi,
I think the Detective Specials are nice little revolvers.
I've worked on a few and they were both in fine shape.
If I owned one, I would probably not feed it a steady diet of +p loads but perhaps as a carry load they would be fine.
As for leather, I would recommend a custom creation over something off the shelf. The price difference is not much more. We had Ted Blocker make holsters for many of our customers and so far everone has been happy with them.
Grips and speedloaders are usually available as well.

Having a Colt revolver in any collection is a great idea.

[Cosmoline]

A third gen DS is AOK with +P .38 Specials but probably not +P+ "LEO only" loads designed for the magnum frames. Obviously the hotter the ammo the sooner it will shoot loose but it will still take a long time. I fire LSWCHP +p .38's in mine for practice along with the milder standard 158 grain LRN

Good leather is pretty easy to find, with most major outfits and virtually all the custom shops. I don't believe the third gen changed the shape enough to require a new holster type, but you will need to make sure to get the right generation grips if you want to change those. I use a simple Galco pocket holster for mine most of the time, with a KL Null Seventrees holster for deep concealment. Both work great.

Trigger pull is awesome on my DS from the 1950's. I believe the pull was still excellent with the Mark III DS's. It can be a little different from a S&W pull and that may throw you off until you get used to it. Though IIRC the Mark III internals in a third gen DS would be closer to a Smith than the older Colts. Fewer hand-fitted parts and more durability in the design. Like the Python.

I prefer the older look of the first and second gen DS's, but as a general matter it's one of the best CCW pieces ever designed. In many ways it is the original modern CCW piece and it still hasn't been bested. The J frames are cheaper but carry one less round.

[Haywood]

Don't get rid of your 442. Detective Specials are nice guns. If you like it buy it. Colt said you could use +P back in the day but, use in moderation. If you get rid of the 442 you will regret it till you buy another one. Borrow the money or work overtime or a side job, I'm telling you think about it.

[cmidkiff]

I love mine :)

http://www.midkiff.us/gunpics/ColtDS.jpg

In DA, the trigger is long, smooth, and stiff... as I expect a quality DA revolver to be. In SA, it's a trifle heavier than I thought it should be, but very clean. I'm happy enough with it that I'm not willing to have it worked on.

I shoot mainly mild rounds through it (125g LRN over W231). I have put some fairly stout rounds through it. For a little snubby, it's pretty heavy. Recoil isn't bad at all (but then again, I enjoy shooting big bore revolvers) It's good solid steel construction, I wouldn't hesitate to put +P rounds through it, but probably wouldn't make a steady diet of them. Why beat it up unnecessarily?

The holster pictured above came from UBG (http://www.ubgholsters.com/), it's Iguana skin, and fits perfectly. Couldn't be happier with it, and the price was right. Nate's a great guy to deal with.

I now have 2 ponies in the stable... Liked this one so well I picked up a 4" Lawman MkIII. Great quality revolvers, it's a real crime that Colt isn't producing double action revolvers anymore. I keep half expecting them to wake up and notice what Det. Spl's and their snake guns are selling for used, and start producing them again. From the rumor mill, I hear they let the old machinery rust away, and new ones are very unlikely.

[cherryriver]

If you want an outside the waistband holster, you'd be hard pressed to better Rob Leahy's Simply Rugged Silver Dollar Pancake (www.simplyrugged.com).
If you're looking for IWB, there's AKJ Concealco.
Speedloaders, Safariland, Comp I for carry, Comp III with the long handle for sporting use. The Comp III is the one for Smith Ks, but it works fine with Colt Ds and Vs.
None of mine have ever loosened or gone out of time with any ammunition, and I practice with hard stuff.
The one in the picture is wearing Hogue handles; if they are appropriate, they're the fastest, nicest thing to use. Otherwise, Hogue wood and Eagle Secret Service are far better than the originals.
Traditional Colt trigger action is indeed different than Smith's. I have both kinds, and I can't say one is better than the other. If I had to guess, I'd say the Smith's "broken neck" break is better for target work, and the Colt "stack" is better for fast work. The technique is different- with the Colt, you don't stage and must make a smooth sweep all the way through.
After shooting Colts, the Smith feels funny, but then I'm a brand fan.
Bill
http://www.fishertransmission.com/images/DSrub.jpg

[Cosmoline]

We need to have a DS/PPS club. I got a shiny new brass trigger shoe and grip extender on order from Tyler for my DS and will want to share photos.

[Dollar An Hour]

Don't get rid of your 442. Detective Specials are nice guns. If you like it buy it. Colt said you could use +P back in the day but, use in moderation. If you get rid of the 442 you will regret it till you buy another one.

My 442 has been surpassed as my EDC by my S&W M&P 340. I had the internals polished & deburred by a gunsmith friend and now the M&P has a smoother trigger, more durable finish, lighter weight, tritium sight and .357 capability. With Hogue Monogrips the M&P is even more comfortable to shoot than the 442 wearing stock grips firing the same load.

In short, there's nothing the 442 does better than the 340, except be lock-free.

[spwenger]

1. The S&W J-frame revolvers use a coil main spring on a strut in the grip frame. While those actions are typically not quite as smooth as those of the larger-frame S&W, which use a leaf spring, they still give a trigger stroke that is consistent through the range of the stroke. Older Colt double-action revolvers are powered by a V-spring, which produces "stacking" or an increase in resistance as you near the end of the stroke. This stacking can be lessened by introducing a slight bow into the spring but it will never be completely eliminated. Target shooters who may prefer a two-stage trigger stroke may prefer this stacking while those who are oriented toward a straight-through trigger "pull" may find it disconcerting.

2. The cylinder release on a S&W double-action revolver is pushed forward. This is fine when the gun is operated in the right hand. On A Colt it is pulled to the rear. This is an advantage if you are left-handed or are forced to reload one-handed (with the left hand) after your right hand or arm has been injured. One instructor in New England actually carries a Colt DS on the left side and a 2" S&W M-10 on the right side, presumably for this reason.

3. Cylinders on S&W revolvers rotate counter-clockwise while those on Colts rotate clockwise. Personally, if I have to reload in the middle of a fight and only have time to get two or three new rounds into the chambers, I don't want to have to figure out if I need to get the live rounds on the left or the right side of the firing pin in order for the gun to fire as soon as I close the action. For this reason, even though I own a DS, I carry S&W Centennials behind both hips - that way I know that I always need to keep the live rounds to the right of the firing pin. As my former teaching partner used to say, "It's your gunfight."

[Old Fuff]

This stacking can be lessened by introducing a slight bow into the spring but it will never be completely eliminated.

And it you have an older revolver you will likely break, rather then bend the spring. :eek:

It is a lot better to modify the rebound lever so that the upper leaf of the mainspring isn't forced to bend further after it contacts the lower leaf. This will eliminate the stacking you refer to. Mainspring stacking should not be confused with the brakeing action caused by the cylinder bolt pressing against the cylinder just before it pops in to the cylinder's slot.

[Jumpin4Joy]

I like mine. Very good carry gun and I hardly notice its there. Its also a joy to shoot.

Jeff

[spwenger]

And it you have an older revolver you will likely break, rather then bend the spring.
...of "an older revolver"? This thread was about a third series DS.

I'm not trying to dispute your point, merely seeking clarification. While Kuhnhausen's advice may be flawed, I have personally done this on one third series DS, one Diamondback and one second-series DS with no problem. Each time I have done it in small increments rather than attempting to make a large change at once.

[Old Fuff]

While the original post indicated interest in a 3rd. generation Detective Special, I didn't feel that the subject was restricted to 3rd. generation revolvers alone.

The post that recommended bowing (bending) the mainspring offered no details on how too do this, nor the potential hazards that might be involved. Unfortunately the Internet is populated with individuals that think that they can modify their guns, although they have no particular knowledge or experience in doing so. When the result is a damaged part finding a replacement can be difficult, sometimes to the point of being next to impossible, and expensive to boot. Therefore I posted a warning. If it stopped one person from breaking a mainspring in an "older" Colt it was worth it.

In addition, if you over-bend one of the newer mainsprings there is no going back. The action becomes mushy, and the only answer is to get a new spring. You can't "unbend" one. In my view when do-it-yourself gunsmithing is recommended or even suggested there should be full disclosure on how-to, and what-never-to-do.

[spwenger]

In my view when do-it-yourself gunsmithing is recommended or even suggested there should be full disclosure on how-to, and what-never-to-do.
...specific instructions are available on page 121, fig. 174, of Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Double Action Revolvers: A Shop Manual, Vol. I, Updated Second Editilon. My recollection is that Brother Fluff disagrees with Kuhnhausen's method but at least I have attempted to correct my sin of omission. :)

[Old Fuff]

Your good intentions are noted, but be aware that in my limited experience the worst offenders seldom are willing to spend the bucks to buy a manual. Books are not necessary if you read it on the 'net... just a screwdriver and hammer... :banghead:

[Cosmoline]

I think the bottom line is do not buy a vintage Colt if your goal is to make it more like a Smith & Wesson. A lot of us *PREFER* the Colt stacked trigger and lord knows there are enough old S&W's out there if you prefer those triggers. Like Pink Floyd said, "Hey, bubba, leave them Colts alone!"

[Dollar An Hour]

Okay... So would you guys trade a pre-lock J-frame for an early '70's DS 3rd Gen? Condition of these two is very close. S&W has had an action job but retains stock springs for reliability. Bluing on the Colt is in slightly better shape.

I don't NEED the DS by any means, and I'm more likely to carry my 340 anyway, which is why I was considering selling the 442. But I think a Colt would be nice to have.

[Cosmoline]

Yes, though I'd prefer a 2nd gen DS like the one I have because I don't like the ejector rod shroud. The 3rd gen are great revolvers. The bottom line is the DS is worth more and there are a lot fewer of them--assuming we're not talking about a very early chief's special or something. To give you an idea, I've owned about seven J frames over the years and never had too much trouble finding them. I've only ever seen one functional DS for sale in the flesh for a halfway sane price and I snagged it.

[Old Fuff]

A lot depends on your intentions. If you plan to use the revolver it offers 6 shots over 5, and has better sights (wider and more visible) then those on a J-frame, and one with a tight lock-up and concentric chambers & bore will do the job out to 100 yards... The earlier non-shrouded guns were what defined the word “snubby,” and set the benchmark for all others that followed.

From an investment point of view, ones in very good to mint shape are going up in value, and will likely out-price most J-frame Smith & Wesson's in similar condition based on availability alone.

On the negative side, they are all-steel guns and a bit large and heavy for pocket carry - especially for folks that like the Styrofoam-weight kind put out by S&W.

Parts and qualified gunsmiths are harder to find, and their numbers are decreasing. Holsters and accessories are out there, but the selection isn't as wide as what's offered for J-frames. Third generation guns weren't made in stainless, although some later ones were - but those are few and far between, and usually very expensive.

It comes down to what you want, and why you want it.

[Cougfan2]

J frames, and Dick spec's, and bears, OH MY! J frames, and Dick spec's and bears, OH MY!

Heck, I'm lookin' for a snubbie at the gun show this weekend...........or maybe a new 1911.........or maybe HMMMMMMMMMM :neener:

[gaucho1]

Cobra

[Jack2427]

Listen to Old Fluff. I have both D frame Colts and J frame Smiths. Like em both. My go to BUG is a S&W 940, but I regularly carry a 3" DS. sometimes I even carry my short Diamondback, I just like the 6 shots in a small package. There are some Coltsmiths out there who can transform a D frames into a wonderful thing, but it is not for the casual gun guy no matter what he has read. Colts are unlike Smiths in that you can almost always find a new part for the Smith, but not necessarily the COlt.

[Cosmoline]

Didn't the third gen Colts have a completely new lockwork? I seem to remember that Colt upgraded all their iron for the "Mk. III" issue and the new internals rely far less on weird hand-fitted 19th century style parts.

I just received the T-Grip for my shiny:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/coltcorona.jpg

[Old Fuff]

Didn't the third gen Colts have a completely new lockwork?

No, the 3rd generation revolvers has the short-butt frame and heavy barrel with an underlug. However the lockwork was still the old style with a slightly modified hand and cylinder ratchet designed for easier fitting.

The new-style lockwork with a transfer bar safety came after the 3rd. generation.

[Rover 'n Rugers]

The upgraded lockwork came not on the 3rd Generation but the later SF VI and DS II models which were stainless in the late 1990's. Not many of these were made.

[WVleo]

Hi, Would 1 of the DS II models made in the latter 90's be more able to handle a steady diet of +P ? I have a DS II I carry daily . It shoots better than I do. ...........WVleo

[Old Fuff]

The DS-II was rated for Plus +P but it depends on how you define "steady diet."

That could mean 600 rounds a year (50 rounds/month) or less, or it could mean 6000 rounds a year (500 rounds/month) - or it could mean whatever.

While the revolver isn't fragile, gunsmiths that are qualified to work on it are scarce, and spare parts are not always easy to find. Sometimes they are impossible to find.

The term, "Plus-P" can mean loads that are only slightly over regular .38 Special specification, or they can be in the junior .357 Magnum class.

Considering the ever increasing value of the gun I would stick to lighter loads for practice (if you do a lot of practicing) and carry the hotter stuff.

Personally I worry more about finding a load that will shoot to point of aim, then I do about if it is or isn't rated at Plus P. I don't believe that whoever or whatever gets hit will know the difference.