Are all anti's really closet classists?


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Wedge
January 24, 2008, 11:22 AM
In the Eighties I would have been considered a yuppie. Young, wife and I are well educated, DINKs (for now), live pretty comfortably. This is just to set the tone and why I get annoyed at statements people make.

I swear, everytime gun control comes up (usually after talking about target shooting or possibly hunting) it usually starts with someone saying to me "Now, I don't mind YOU owning a gun...", with a very clear meaning of what YOU really means. I am talking about the extreme anti's but have no problems with me owning firearms or carrying for protection, with their neighbors being able to protect themselves and I am actually a little surprised that they don't own a shotgun for HD to protect what is there's and in some cases even do. But arming the general population is a recipe for disaster and a reason that there is crime :scrutiny:

The worst is when they try to say how open and diverse they are but when it comes down to it they INSTANTLY drive a wedge of us vs. them (haves vs. have nots) right through their thought process.

Is this attitude that I have noticed similar to that other members have experienced?

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highorder
January 24, 2008, 11:29 AM
anti's dont trust anyone, especially themselves. They are scared of the possibilities if they were to have a loaded gun in their hands, so no one should have them.

NG VI
January 24, 2008, 11:30 AM
seems about dead on

tpelle
January 24, 2008, 11:38 AM
In my experience, most antis don't want ANYONE (outside of the police and military) to have guns. They really and truly are "sheep", in that they subscribe to the "herd" mentality, and would rather put all "bad" thoughts out of their minds, and rely on the police to protect them.

As a side issue, I'm also a bicyclist. I visit a lot of bicycling forums, and surprisingly this issue comes up quite frequently there. I lot of bicyclists worry about self defense, and a surprising number that you pass on the road or one the MUP (Multi-Use Path) probably have a pistol tucked into their jersey pocket or in their handlebar bag. But whenever a thread on the subject is opened (e.g. "What's The Best Way To Carry My Glock When Riding") the discussion quickly degenerates into name-calling, and people expressing horror at the "barbaric and lawless U.S., etc.

It's really kind of a riot. Almost as much fun as the "leg shaving" debate (I usually respond with "enough about the legs - I want to know about my back!").

RoadkingLarry
January 24, 2008, 11:40 AM
Some are elitists/classists.
Some are just uninformed/ignorant.
And there are a whole bunch of them that are just plain stupid.

jackstinson
January 24, 2008, 11:45 AM
Nothing personal, but this reminds me that I get annoyed at the term "anti's" being bandied about constantly. That term INSTANTLY drives a wedge of us vs. them right through OUR thought process. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
Exactly who are these "anti" people? Are they them? Are we them? Are they us? All I read is "anti's". Now I know for certain that every one of us is anti-something. We aren't pro-everything. The discussions here at THR show that all of us don't even agree on every gun issue. There are pro and anti viewpoints on many gun issues here. I'm personally 'anti" many things and pro many things....even gun related things. Does that make me "them"? Should I hand in my CCW?
Why is it always "us vs them"? Who are them anyway? Should I be looking over my shoulder for them? :uhoh:
Jack

Joe Demko
January 24, 2008, 11:45 AM
Maybe a few are and those would most likely be the ones in high profile positions whose names are familiar to you. Most antis are people who believe that guns make killing easier and that, if we eliminate guns, there will be fewer people killed. I don't necessarily agree.
Threads like this one, however, are mainly an invitation for us to pat ourselves on the bum over how much better we are than they are, in ways too numerous to list.:rolleyes:

average_shooter
January 24, 2008, 11:48 AM
Are anti's "classist?" In a word; Yes.

And there's even some "gun owners" who are. I'm sure we've all heard the "I'm a gun owner and I think there needs to be more restrictions" line, VPC loves those folks. And think of all the talk about "cheap" firearms that even some gun owners say should be illegal or banned because they aren't reliable or made by "big-name" manufacturers. "Why, that's just pot-metal, you need to get yerself a real gun!" Well, not everyone can afford a Sig or Kimber Custom right off the bat.

Intrepid Dad
January 24, 2008, 11:51 AM
Some are elitists/classists.
Some are just uninformed/ignorant.
And there are a whole bunch of them that are just plain stupid.

That pretty much sums it up.

divemedic
January 24, 2008, 05:07 PM
There are a few people I know who wanted or did own guns, until their wives ordered them (the guns) out of the house. One of my coworkers is currently selling is guns because his wife is pregnant and doesn't want guns around the baby.

Meanwhile my mother and g/f both CCW.

41magsnub
January 24, 2008, 05:10 PM
I would say a large portion are folks that have never been exposed to firearms except for on TV. They can't see a need for a gun in their life therefore why should anybody need one?

ArmedBear
January 24, 2008, 05:10 PM
One of my coworkers is currently selling is guns because his wife is pregnant and doesn't want guns around the baby.

Great. Another child will grow up without a man in the house.

Standing Wolf
January 24, 2008, 05:28 PM
But arming the general population is a recipe for disaster and a reason that there is crime

It's really all about non-Caucasians having guns.

RKBABob
January 24, 2008, 05:33 PM
As a side issue, I'm also a bicyclist. I visit a lot of bicycling forums, and surprisingly this issue comes up quite frequently there. I lot of bicyclists worry about self defense, and a surprising number that you pass on the road or one the MUP (Multi-Use Path) probably have a pistol tucked into their jersey pocket or in their handlebar bag. But whenever a thread on the subject is opened (e.g. "What's The Best Way To Carry My Glock When Riding") the discussion quickly degenerates into name-calling, and people expressing horror at the "barbaric and lawless U.S., etc.

I've seen the same thing on the cycling forums... Usually some European complaining that a barbaric American would dare to shoot a motorist who ran them him the road, fracturing both of the cyclist's legs, then attempted to rob him. Why don't American cyclists fight fair?

Their rants can be defused by pointing out that a cyclist might carry a firearm for dangerous animal encounters, such as with mountain lions, bears, coyotes, and geese. Europeans apparently don't place as high a value on the life of a goose as they do the life of someone trying to kill them... so shooting an animal justifies firearms possesion, in their minds.

Also, Europeans in long-settled areas may be used to criminals, but not to wild animals like mountain lions and geese... so they tend to especially frightened of the dangers.

OK, let our European members start flaming! :fire: :neener:


I believe that cyclists are more likely to carry simply because they spend more time alone outdoors, and in remote places. They're much more likely to have encountered a few crazy people than someone who spends his weekends in the house. Same goes for campers, hikers, fishermen, hunters, rock climbers, etc.

iamkris
January 24, 2008, 05:34 PM
I believe many antis feel that the vast majority of people are completely unable to control any emotion or urge that comes to mind, thus the government must control it for them.

They project their own pathetic belief that unseen forces and inanimate objects will "cause" them to do bad things to other people. This projection of their own shortcomings then means that no one should have guns.

In the end, we are reaping the victim/me/instant gratification/me-me-me/whatever-feels-good seeds that have been sown since the 1960's in popular culture.

TrapperReady
January 24, 2008, 05:42 PM
Are all anti's really closet classists?


Of course not. Sweeping generalizations about a large group of people are almost never accurate.

However, in my experience many people who would be described as "antis" share a few common traits:

1) Little to no actual experience with firearms.
2) Live in areas with relatively restrictive gun laws.
3) Have not personally experienced violent crime.
4) Often have an inflated idea of what "911" can do.
5) Don't "plan ahead" for emergencies.*

* For example, I've had discussions with quite a few people who have anti-gun opinions. At some point, I will often ask them the following two questions:

1) Do you keep fire extinguishers in your house?
2) Do you have an emergency kit in your car?

With rare exception, they have not.

ArmedBear
January 24, 2008, 05:44 PM
Generalizations are all wrong.:D

Nitrogen
January 24, 2008, 05:48 PM
As a former anti, I think you're about half to two thirds right, but I think you're focusing on the wrong point.

Most antis are the way they are out of ignorance, not out of being classist rectums. Their arguments seem classist out of fear and ignorance. Let me explain.

If you're a urban or suburban dweller that has never handled a gun, you assume lots of things that just arent' so. If you've never experienced a gun as a shooter, then the VPC or Brady's stances make sense. Guns are scary if you don't know the truth about them. The mythos around them currently makes them seem like some complicated tool, like an F-16 fighter aircraft, that takes years and years of heavy police or millitary training to master.

We all know that just isn't so, but your average ignorant anti can believe that, just out of ignorance. As soon as you get a gun in their hands, and they realise that even without ANY training, they can manage to hit a B-27 at 5 meters, the veeneer starts to crumble.

You also have to realise that most ignorant anti's exposure to guns is on the news. "Two killed in gunfire in carjacking gone wrong." "Family gunned down in home invasion." so this makes guns seem like a tool only for evil.

The main problem is ignorance. As a former anti, I believed these things, until my personal experience proved them wrong. I've talked quite a few former antis into seeing various shades of the light, from supporting the idea of the 2nd amendment; but forgoing personal gun ownership, to people who were so entranced by it, that they own more guns than I do, and shoot them far more than I ever could hope to.

We need to take a page from the Evangalical christians here, and become gun rights evangelists; getting as many people to see the light as possible; at every opportunity. It's your best bet for protecting your second amendment rights.

"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
--Hanlon's Razor

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity."
-- MLK

jakeswensonmt
January 24, 2008, 06:13 PM
The anti-RKBA-ers that I meet tend to be younger and have gone to public schools and been indoctrinated there with Brady propaganda. A lifetime of hysterical sensational leftist news coverage has left them terrified by incidents like Columbine et al, and recently Virginia Tech. Many have gone on to college and had this propaganda reinforced. They tend to be from affluent families, have never lived in a rough neighborhood, or been the victim of a violent crime. More often than not they're female.

They've been told that love, understanding, diversity, and gun-grabbing will stop all crimes, and they are true believers in an almost religious sense. Their programmers in the schools have tolerated no dissent on the gun issue, and they're not used to disagreement with their viewpoint. Our failure to agree will often perplex them to the point of tears and anger.

Despite the fact that they are so convinced of the veracity of their position, often it is not a well-thought out position, having been accepted whole from their peers and teachers lock-stock-and-barrel (pun intended.) They usually haven't done any research on the subject, and have never heard about the "successful results" of their counterparts in countries like the UK.

Soybomb
January 24, 2008, 06:21 PM
I'm with Nitrogen, most are just ignorant. They've grown up in families without guns and don't really know much about them other than what they see in the media. Assault weapon? Well that does sound scary, they're right that should be banned. If we quit calling them comminists for a few minutes and talk real statistics with them and take them to the range I think there are actually very few that won't drop the anti feelings.

Zundfolge
January 24, 2008, 06:23 PM
Are all anti's really closet classists?
No, most of them are right out in the open about their classism/elitism


Classism and elitism are the cornerstones of the anti gun movement. They don't want to eliminate all firearms from the face of the earth, they just want them removed from the hands of certain classes of people, most still support an armed police and military.


I would go so far as to define anti-gun beliefs as a form of classism.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
January 24, 2008, 06:28 PM
They were abused children and sexually disfunctional according to Freud.:neener:

rickomatic
January 24, 2008, 08:18 PM
One of my coworkers is currently selling is guns because his wife is pregnant and doesn't want guns around the baby.
How come? Is the baby a convicted felon?

catfish101
January 24, 2008, 11:23 PM
Most of the "don't like guns" people are different in many ways. They aren't "my" kind of people. The area I am from is half working class. Farmers, mechanics, truck drivers. The other half, now, are "city" people that have moved out to the rural areas. Not that they don't work but they don't sweat will doing it.

Now don't flame me because I made the impression that people that don't get dirty at work are anti-gun ect...That isn't what I am saying.... BUT. I would bet that most of the "clean" working, suit wearing people on this forum are down to earth and wouldn't look down on a person that does get dirty for a living. We just have a difference in jobs not overall attitude.


The ones here are just weird all the way around for the most part.

AndyC
January 25, 2008, 12:30 AM
Lack of exposure - they've never had the opportunity to handle one safely and have fun doing so, all they ever see on the news (or heard through their windows) is negative so they have purely negative perceptions.

Take people shooting, people.

Ragnar Danneskjold
January 25, 2008, 12:49 AM
anti's dont trust anyone, especially themselves. They are scared of the possibilities if they were to have a loaded gun in their hands, so no one should have them.

I think that sums it up. They don't see guns as machines with function and use. They project their emotions onto guns and imagine them to embody danger, evil, violence and fear. They equate a gun sitting on a table to a bomb about to go off. By proxy, they feel(key word feel) that gun owners, since we like guns, must also be full of violence and anger.


We can talk about rights and the Constitution all day long. But until the majority of America sees guns as no different from a table saw in the garage, or a pair of scissors in the drawer, we won't get anywhere. Tools to be used responsibly and with much caution, but tools none the less.


Now as for the topic of the post, I do think that those at the top; the Feinsteins, Boxers, Schumers, and Giuliani of the world do believe that guns should be reserved for certain people: IE them and the people that protect them. But the average anti, liberal and college know it all hippie, I think it is more of an issues of fear and projecting emotions.

That side of the political spectrum is totally dominated be feelings and emotions. To the exclusion of fact and reason. Separate the feelings from the gun issue, and it stops being an issue. No one feels anything about table saws, though people still cut their fingers off with them all the time. There is no anti-table saw lobby.

Vermont
January 25, 2008, 08:25 AM
No.

They are often idealists who hope we can get all guns out of the hands of criminals by banning them. They would rather face a criminal who has a knife than a gun. So would I. I just believe that the benefits of allowing guns outweigh the drawbacks.

For most gun control advocates, it is not about economic class. It is about keeping guns out of the hands of people who would commit violent crimes with them. Since they don't know who will commit violent crimes, they want to make sure no one has guns. If they were classists they would want to take guns away from poor people. By the way, there are poor people who are in favor of gun control.

This "holier than thou" bull is not helping our cause.

Wedge
January 25, 2008, 09:59 AM
Of course the answer to the question posed is, no. Many may be elitists/classists, but more are just ignorant and scared. The question is also severely loaded because the first gun laws that came to be were exactly to disarm certain groups. ..many times in the name of "public safety".

I will reiterate that from the anti's I deal with, some of them violently opposed to firearms, when the discussion comes up they finally say, "I don't mind YOU owning guns." This comes from both rich and poor, with the YOU certainly referring to more than just good ol' Wedge. This repsonse is nearly universal as well. The worst part, in my mind, is that this response is not a "you are my friend so I'll just say that", but they really mean it. The beliefs are alive and well.

I will use a fictional example that I have seen in reality: A lot out of ignorance and fear and even more out of not wanting the "riff raff" to be able to cause too much trouble. Who would be the first people to buy a Rem. 870 if their very nice neighborhood was experiencing break-ins, they would. And who would still believe that the "riff raff" shouldn't have guns, that registration and permits prevent illegal guns from happening and that their HD 870 would NEVER be confiscated from them...they would.

For everyone saying this a holier than thou, I want to feel better about myself and bash the anti's; FWIW, everytime gun control comes up I extend a range trip. The only ones that have ever accepted were my wife (who goes 3x a year with me when it is nice out) and her sister (who has come I think twice). Everytime, I will say, "let's go to the range" in hopes of at least planting a seed.

Deanimator
January 25, 2008, 10:39 AM
A lot of them are elitists. They fear and mistrust the lower classes.

A lot of them are racists as well. They're not afraid of guns; they're afraid of Black people with guns. The open racism I've seen expressed in usenet by anti-gunners is astonishing in alleged "liberals".

Cannonball888
January 25, 2008, 10:48 AM
^Yep. Even Obama was quoted as saying he understands how rural americans need firearms for providing food and protection but that people in inner cities do not need firearms. It's obvious what two groups of people he was referring to.

highlander 5
January 25, 2008, 11:05 AM
Wm F Buckley had C. Heston on his show talking about 2nd amendment and firearm ownership when Mr Heston related a tale of getting a call from a vip movie producer. seems that there were some serious riots going on in the LA area and he wanted to borrow a shotgun and get a "quick lessons" on how to use it. He did not name names but said VIP was liberal and very anti gun.
Most of these folks have loads of personal bodyguards.
2 cases I can remember of "do as I say,not as I do' Ted "fatboy" Kennedy and his machine gun toting BGs and Jane Fonda/Ted Turner racing down stairs
in their home armed with handguns when they thought someone broke into their home

Werewolf
January 25, 2008, 12:31 PM
There are a few people I know who wanted or did own guns, until their wives ordered them (the guns) out of the house. One of my coworkers is currently selling is guns because his wife is pregnant and doesn't want guns around the baby.

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American Female: Shut up and stop squirming... <snip, snip> <evil laugh - muhahaha!>

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