AR-15 in 7.62x39?


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tmajors
January 24, 2008, 04:07 PM
So I'm shopping around DPMS's web store while getting ready to purchase an AR-15. First time I noticed that they are available in 7.62X39.

I already have an SKS and AK using 7.62 so plus would be I don't have to change or buy different ammo.

Negative I'm still out a .223.

1) Good idea or just get the .223?

2) Anyone have any problems feeding a 7.62 AR with Wolf or other surplus ammo or do I gotta use the more expensive name brands?

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rcmodel
January 24, 2008, 04:13 PM
The AR uses a straight magazine section where it goes up through the lower receiver. It gets away with it because the .223 case doesn't have very much body taper.

The AK magazines are curved full length due to the much more tapered 7.62x39 case design. They have to be curved that much to match the case taper of the 7.62x39.
Without the curve, they would rattle, and most likely would not feed reliably.

All this is not to say a 7.62x39 AR won't work.
But you see the problem of case design you have to deal with?

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

rbernie
January 24, 2008, 04:27 PM
I've had good luck with 7.62x39 ARs using the MGW 10rd magazines. But don't expect anything good in terms of mags over 10rd.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41166&d=1150376185

blackhawk2000
January 24, 2008, 04:40 PM
Nice hog.

Like RB said mags are the issue. I would get the .223/5.56.

Chipperman
January 24, 2008, 05:00 PM
I have a friend with a 7.62x39 upper he runs on his M16. He uses 30 round Frankenmags to feed it. The upper portion of the mag is straight, and it's welded to a normal AK lower mag part. I don't know who made the mags, but they work fine.

He let me run a couple of mags through it full-auto and it ran without any hiccups.

rbernie
January 24, 2008, 05:02 PM
He uses 30 round Frankenmags to feed itFYI - there is no current manufacturer of such a mag. You can occasionally find 'em for sale in the online auctions, but not often.

Chipperman
January 24, 2008, 05:46 PM
Yeah, these were Pre-ban mags. He said he had to pay a fair amount for each mag (I have no idea how much). They ran well, though.

Number 6
January 24, 2008, 06:16 PM
CProducts is coming out with 30 round 7.62x39 mags for the AR platform. Rumor is that they will be releasing them at the Shot Show. CProducts has delayed these release of these mags numerous times however.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=359161
http://www.cproductsllc.com/

MMcfpd
January 24, 2008, 06:58 PM
I paid $30 for a 20 round Frankenmag and $35 for a 40 round at gunshows this past fall. They do work just fine, but as noted they are not that readily available. C Products does have new production 10 rounders and their 30s are anticipated "soon."

I like this particular platform a lot, and you can have a 7.62x39 upper and a 5.56 upper that you can use on the same lower.

Tarvis
January 24, 2008, 07:17 PM
I wouldn't get a 7.62x39 just because it uses the same ammo as your other rifles. If you are buying it anyway, what does it matter? If you had a Dillon 1050 (hard/expensive to swap calibers) setup for 7.62x39 and you liked the cartridge, go nuts. I would go with the .223, .308 or even 6.8SPC. Dunno about the 6.8 ammo as I don't have one, but its probably more expensive than the other 2.

On another note, why wolf ammo? I thought the stuff was great until the last batch I shot.... talk about fouling, not just in the bore either; frickin everywhere, scope to magazine and everything inbetween. I detail stripped my mini 14 and scrubbed her raw, still stinks like Russia.

TimboKhan
January 24, 2008, 07:21 PM
I was gonna say, get a .223 and just buy the upper when more money presents itself! Thats my plan, because much like you, I shoot a lot of 7.62x39, although I did not know that there were mag issues for "hi-cap" mags.

In general, thats one of the reasons why I love the AR. They have become so modular over the last few years. The other nice thing is that theoretically, if you change from upper to upper, you won't lose your zero if you mount optics. I wouldn't put tons of trust in that, but thats the theory.

isuace
January 24, 2008, 07:29 PM
My dad and I were talking about this same topic last week. Who makes the 7.62x39 AR's, and where can you get them?

yotesmoker
January 24, 2008, 07:46 PM
I have a colt in 7.62 and I love it.With just iron sights it shoots rings around my mini-30.I have a couple frankin mags and 2 colt mags all work fine.I recently purchased 2 c products mags in 5 and 10 rounds and they also work fine.If I could only have 1 semi it would be my ar in 7.62

MMcfpd
January 24, 2008, 08:15 PM
Del-Ton (http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Conversion_Kits_7_62X39_s/104.htm), DPMS (http://www.dpmsinc.com/search/?s=7.62), Model 1 Sales (http://www.model1sales.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=UCE167&storeid=1&image=u16carpre7.gif) and Olympic Arms (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=107&category_id=12&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37) currently offer standard 7.62x39 uppers. Colts are out of production, but are available used. I've seen mention of DoubleStar (http://www.star15.com/home.html) offering them as well, but they don't list them on their website.

AR uppers with optics zeroed don't typically lose their zero when removed from the lower.

.308 won't work in a standard AR lower.

KC&97TA
January 24, 2008, 08:32 PM
An AR upper will not loose it's zero when removed from the lower reciever... for example the USN & USMC SR-25, is broke down and put into a 1700 pelican case when not being employed, a rifle that usally holds sub MOA. As long as the optic is not removed from the upper it will not loose it's zero. There is actually a method that if you mount your optics, pull to the rear or push forward on them, then tighten the screws or quick release they will retain thier zero's... I've have exceptional performance with this method.

As far as the 7.62x39 AR's go, 10 round mags or franken mags... that's the only limiting factor. Since you already have 2 rifles in 7.62x39, I'd say go with it, I have the same prefference to keep similar calibers with pistols.

For those thinking of .308 AR's; get ready to PAY, I'm working on building one right now, part wise they cost more, it's not just the ammo.

Tom Krein
January 24, 2008, 08:44 PM
VERY cool thread! I actually am building a 7.62 X 39 upper in the hope of suppressing it.

THANKS for the mag info!

Tom

Full Clip
January 25, 2008, 12:00 AM
C-Products has their 7.62 mags in stock. I just got two 10-rounders and a 5-rounder for my Colt Sporter upper. I have not got them to the range yet, but they are well-made and seem to feed reliably. I'm sure they will offfer high-cap mags in the future.

http://www.cproductsllc.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=cp&Category_Code=7_62

rbernie
January 25, 2008, 12:07 AM
I actually am building a 7.62 X 39 upper in the hope of suppressing it.I have had good luck using the Hornady 174gr RN in my 7.62x39 AR15. Full house loads push it out to around 1900fps (using H322 powder in Rem brass). You'll want to use a heavy carrier to add mass to da pushin' when stripping the round out of the mag; the round nose will drag on the feed ramps some and you'll need the extra momentum to keep things chugging along reliably. You can also use a heavier spring, but that can lead to short-stroking if you try to get things subsonic via lighter loads.

Tarvis
January 25, 2008, 01:29 AM
I guess I still don't really understand how it all works: a suppressor slows the expanding gasses so the muzzle "blast" is almost zero. That is a supressor, not a silencer.... right? Some bozo told me that silencers were illegal and what he had on his rifle he called a "can" which must be 1337 speak for suppressor. But at the same time, I've been told that you can't reduce the report of a super sonic bullet to near nothing because of the sonic boom. Is this correct?

Geronimo45
January 25, 2008, 02:00 AM
I guess I still don't really understand how it all works: a suppressor slows the expanding gasses so the muzzle "blast" is almost zero. That is a supressor, not a silencer.... right?
A flash suppressor just reduces the flash. The sound from the thing going off is the same as a non-flash-suppressored gun... though it could be slightly louder, depending on which way the gases are vented. The silencer slows the gases down. I don't think the flash suppressor does.

Silencers are often called suppressors, and I'm pretty sure they're legal in ID. Just a lot of paperwork that the Federales require.

I've been told that you can't reduce the report of a super sonic bullet to near nothing because of the sonic boom. Is this correct?
You can reduce the sound considerably, be it supersonic or no. Just easier to make it extremely quiet when it's a small caliber, low velocity round. The supersonic crack is, IIRC, just a tiny bit of the overall racket a gunshot creates.

Suppressors chop a good bit of the sound out of the gunshot, supersonic or no. In some cases, it's enough to where you could possibly forego hearing protection. In all cases, it helps reduce potential hearing damage to yourself - your muffs/plugs can only do so much (20-30 decibels, I'm thinking). Suppressors can cut another 20 decibels off that sound, if not more.

Gingerbreadman
January 25, 2008, 02:02 AM
Anything that reduces the sound of a gunshot=illegal without tax stamp and such.
And yes, supersonic bullets have a sonic boom. It isn't necessarily window shaking like an aircraft's sonic boom, but it is still noisy.

CypherNinja
January 25, 2008, 02:12 AM
Suppressor and Silencer are interchangeable, same thing.

Silencers/suppressors/moderators/"cans" are controlled under the NFA, meaning they must be registered. State laws may vary.

They work by giving room for the gasses to expand/cool somewhat before leaving the can. They also include clever baffles or wipes(old school) to delay the gasses as much as possible in their hasty exit. ;)

In reality they are not as quiet as the movies. They only reduce the report 20-40 decibels (from ~150ish). They do, however, have a tendency to change the sound somewhat. Instead of BANG! you get something like: "was that a (friggin loud) nail gun?". :D

Presence or absence of a sonic crack(/boom) from the bullet is a separate issue/sound than the muzzle blast.

Tarvis
January 25, 2008, 12:23 PM
Ok, all that makes sense. I know about the fed stamps for suppressors and have a handle on how they work, just wasnt sure what that guy was bs'ing about; silencers illegal, supressors not illegal. Guess it was a buncha mumbo jumbo.

How, if at all, are external ballistics changed with a silencer?

KingTiger
January 25, 2008, 12:53 PM
I've got a pre-ban Colt Sporter in 7.62x39 that I wanted to suppress. It's threaded 1/2-36 however, which makes it difficult to find a .30 cal suppressor with that thread pattern. This is a good round to suppress, especially since you end up using a suppressor that can handle .308. My AR in .223 sounds like a .22 rifle when suppressed. A suppressor will change the point of impact of the bullet, however, they don't degrade accuracy and may actually help tighten up groups.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x119/KingTiger_photo/002.jpg

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