Oops, wrong school (in Israel)


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esq_stu
January 25, 2008, 02:02 PM
In Israel, a school, including a religious seminary, is just not a TFZ (terrorist friendly zone). Especially the teachers' lounge. In this case, two staff members were armed and shot the intruders.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201070788290&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


Two terrorists were killed after they infiltrated the Mekor Hayim High School Yeshiva in Kfar Etzion, south of Jerusalem.

The terrorists, armed with knives and a pistol, infiltrated the kibbutz - in the Gush Etzion settlement bloc - and snuck into a building used by the high school, run by Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz.

The kibbutz is surrounded by a fence which contains an alert system when a part of it Has been breached, but the terrorists managed to disable the alert and cut a hole through the fence undetected, a paramedic in Hatzollah Judea and Samaria told The Jerusalem Post.

They entered a classroom where tutors were holding a meeting, and stabbed two of them. The wounded suffered non-threatening injuries, one to the head and the other to the shoulder, and were evacuated to Hadassah Hosptial in Jerusalem.

Two of the tutors were armed and managed to overpower and kill the terrorists, without them having had a chance to use their pistol, a spokesman for Hatzollah Judea and Samaria told the Post.

I hope some of our state legislators in the U.S. read this.

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sixgunner455
January 25, 2008, 03:57 PM
Perfect response to the threat.

CountGlockula
January 25, 2008, 04:02 PM
I had to look up Isreal's gun laws: http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9909/17/israel.gun.control/index.html

3-month waiting period??!!!

230RN
January 25, 2008, 05:29 PM
"It is not a human right. It is not one of the inalienable rights that I should have a gun capable of defending myself," says Rabbi David Hartman.

I will never understand how a member of a group of people (and this is not limited to the Jews) which has been persecuted for ages can possibly think anything like that.

Mind boggling.

Utterly mind boggling.

El Tejon
January 25, 2008, 05:42 PM
230, come now, it's the power of self-deception. Remember there were Jews telling other Jews to go along to get along during the Holocaust. Don't upset the Nazis, they may hurt us.

Heck, you've seen the SS photos from WWII of the round ups of the Jews. The Germans rounded them up with unloaded weapons.

It's a mental self-defense mechanism. Some cannot accept that others want them dead and so they create alternate realities in which to live. Problem is that they want you to live there as well.:uhoh:

BTW, can someone please post the article? I hate it when you guys tease me with only part of the article. I cannot access it without being kicked off.

Bazooka Joe71
January 25, 2008, 05:55 PM
Here you go El T,

A border police officer was killed and another female officer was seriously wounded Thursday night in a shooting attack near the entrance to the Shuafat refugee camp in northern Jerusalem.


The scene of Thursday night's shooting attack at a Shuafat refugee camp checkpoint in east Jerusalem in which Rami Zoari, 20, a border policeman from Beersheba was killed.
Photo: Channel 2
Both were wounded in the shooting but Rami Zoari, 20 from Beersheba, died after resuscitation attempts failed.

IDF sources said the terrorists approached the entrance to Shuafat on foot, opened fire at a group of Israelis nearby and fled the scene. Military forces and border policemen, assisted by a helicopter, immediately dispatched search parties to apprehend the gunmen.

The Battalions of Struggle and Return, a previously anonymous offshoot of Fatah's Aksa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack, Israel Radio reported. The group added that the attackers managed to flee the scene.

Police Chief Insp.-Gen. David Cohen and Jerusalem District Head Ilan Franco arrived at the scene.

Roadblocks all around Jerusalem separating camps like Shuafat from the central part of the capital were opened following a ruling by the High Court of Justice. Citing this fact, Franco said that "if it were up to me, the roadblocks would stay closed."


Students at the Mekor Chaim High School Yeshiva in Kfar Etzion after Thursday's incident in which two terrorists infiltrated the yeshiva and were killed by counselors.
Photo: Channel 2
Franco said that roadblock such as the one near Shuafat were "weak points" around the city.

Cohen said that his forces would not rest until they caught the perpetrators of the attack.

"We will do everything in order to apprehend the murderers," the police chief said. "To the best of my understanding, the officers acted according to the current protocol. I would like to point out that the policemen work here year round, performing high-level operational work, and they deserve the highest superlatives for preventing previous terror attacks."

ZAKA paramedic Yisrael Wertheimer, who was first on the scene, was forced to attend to the wounded female officer under fire. "I had to operate under fire. There was still shooting in the background. We worked on the ground, very close to her, to avoid being hit by crossfire," he told Army Radio.

In every attack in the West Bank in recent months, a previously unknown Fatah offshoot claimed responsibility. Police said many attacks had been averted by security forces' work inside Palestinian towns.

Meanwhile, in another incident that occurred at about the same time, two terrorists were killed after infiltrating the Mekor Hayim High School Yeshiva in Kfar Etzion, south of Jerusalem.

The terrorists, armed with knives and a pistol, infiltrated the kibbutz - in the Gush Etzion settlement bloc - and sneaked into a building used by the high school, run by Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz.

The kibbutz is surrounded by a fence which contains an alert system when a part of it
had been breached, enabling the terrorists to disable the alert and cut a hole through the fence undetected, a paramedic in Hatzallah Judea and Samaria told The Jerusalem Post.

They entered a classroom where counselors were holding a meeting, and stabbed two of them. Two of the counselors were armed and managed to overpower and kill the terrorists, without giving them a chance to fire their pistol, a Hatzallah spokesman said.

The wounded suffered non-life-threatening injuries, one to the head and the other to the shoulder, and were evacuated to Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem.

No group claimed responsibility for the attack, which was carried out by two youths, around 17 years old. They were wearing green outfits, apparently in an attempt to masquerade as IDF soldiers.

However, they were not in military uniform, the Hatzallah's spokesman told the Post.

IDF sources hailed the counselors' quick response. "This could have ended much worse," a source in the Central Command said.

Kadima MK Ze'ev Elkin called on Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to postpone his meeting, scheduled for Sunday, with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas following the attack, Israel Radio reported.

jaholder1971
January 25, 2008, 07:00 PM
I will never understand how a member of a group of people (and this is not limited to the Jews) which has been persecuted for ages can possibly think anything like that.

Pity play for free land, perhaps?

230, come now, it's the power of self-deception. Remember there were Jews telling other Jews to go along to get along during the Holocaust. Don't upset the Nazis, they may hurt us.


Let's not forget the Zionist terror groups in Palestine who were secretly corroborating with the Nazis in order to obtain a Jewish state in that area.

keeleon
January 25, 2008, 07:36 PM
The counselors should not have taken the law into their own hands. They should have called the police, and complied with the terrorists' desire for them to be stabbed to death, waiting for the proper authorities to come and handle the situation appropriately. Why were they armed in the first place? Were they planning on committing some mass murder at the school? They should be fired for bringing weapons onto a campus. Won't someone think of the children for once??

JKimball
January 25, 2008, 09:10 PM
I spent a year in Jerusalem when I was in High School. In addition to frequently seeing armed soldiers around the city, I also remember seeing civilians (or in any case, people dressed like civilians) carrying pistols in their waistbands. I even remember seeing a teacher with an M16 slung on her shoulder as she led the school children around a site, apparently on a field trip. It may as well have been invisible considering the way they were acting, just going about their business having a fun time, and really paying no attention to it. But it was there and surely wasn't invisible to anybody who may have intended any harm.

The Israeli's have dealt with the "war on terrorism" much longer and much more intensely than we have and I'm surprised that people and politicians aren't more open to following their example when it comes to making schools more safe.

chris in va
January 26, 2008, 03:12 AM
I even remember seeing a teacher with an M16 slung on her shoulder as she led the school children around a site, apparently on a field trip

That just warms my heart. Mama duck and the ducklings. Except mama has teeth.

230RN
January 26, 2008, 06:58 AM
230RN lamented,

I will never understand how a member of a group of people (and this is not limited to the Jews) which has been persecuted for ages can possibly think anything like that.


El Tejon responded,
230, come now, it's the power of self-deception. Remember there were Jews telling other Jews to go along to get along during the Holocaust. Don't upset the Nazis, they may hurt us.


But.... that's not "thinking."

(Emphasis added in both quotes.)

El Tejon
January 26, 2008, 10:25 AM
230, it's very zen, the thinking of not thinking.:p

IME
January 26, 2008, 11:55 AM
Let's not forget the Zionist terror groups in Palestine who were secretly corroborating with the Nazis in order to obtain a Jewish state in that area.

Could you please provide some documentation or source for this claim. I consider myself to be a well read individual but I have never heard of such before.

jaholder1971
January 27, 2008, 05:57 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_gang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Stern

The notes below the articles are extensive and credible.

george29
January 27, 2008, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by jaholder1971
Let's not forget the Zionist terror groups in Palestine who were secretly corroborating with the Nazis in order to obtain a Jewish state in that area.

Could you please provide some documentation or source for this claim. I consider myself to be a well read individual but I have never heard of such before.

I beg of you guys, take it elsewhere, puleeese!!!

ieszu
January 27, 2008, 06:38 PM
I beg of you guys, take it elsewhere, puleeese!!!


Agreed!

The relative merits of Israeli gun laws are one thing, questioning mentalities is another, but but leading people down the prim-rose path of possible discrimination (and quoting wikipedia, which is a unverifiable source to begin with) is just plane wrong and not THR way.

Who is or is not a terrorist or had those things in their past is not what we are here for... please don't be stupid and cause what could have been a good thread (and on topic) to be locked by the moderators.

230RN
January 28, 2008, 04:03 AM
Aummmmmmmmm.... Aummmmmmmm. Aummmmmmm....

Oh, now I see the error of my ways, El Tejon!

Aummmmm... Aummmmm... Aummmmm...

Gee, not thinking is sooo comfortable and rewarding....

denfoote
January 28, 2008, 05:06 AM
Israel officially stopped screwing around with animalstinians right after the 1972 Olympics.
They need to reelect Bebe Netanyahu.

Notch
January 28, 2008, 01:59 PM
"Originally Posted by jaholder1971
Let's not forget the Zionist terror groups in Palestine who were secretly corroborating with the Nazis in order to obtain a Jewish state in that area. "


Oh god... here we go again... thinly veiled anti semitism. Pathetic.

Dorryn
January 28, 2008, 02:29 PM
Some cannot accept that others want them dead

I accept that most people want me dead. Sometimes they tell me! :D

IME
January 28, 2008, 03:38 PM
I beg of you guys, take it elsewhere, puleeese!!!

Agreed!

The relative merits of Israeli gun laws are one thing, questioning mentalities is another, but but leading people down the prim-rose path of possible discrimination (and quoting wikipedia, which is a unverifiable source to begin with) is just plane wrong and not THR way.

Who is or is not a terrorist or had those things in their past is not what we are here for... please don't be stupid and cause what could have been a good thread (and on topic) to be locked by the moderators.

My post was intended to challenge and NOT legitimize the assertion. If the wording of my post made that unclear, I offer my sincere apologies to those who were offended.

Thernlund
January 28, 2008, 04:04 PM
I've seen pictures of Isreali students just going about their business fully armed with M-16s slung over thier shoulders.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Israel_8_Young_israelic_settler_with_rifle.jpg/397px-Israel_8_Young_israelic_settler_with_rifle.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/MSimon6808/IsraeliGirls.jpg

They don't screw around.


-T.

george29
January 30, 2008, 04:15 PM
"Originally Posted by jaholder1971
Let's not forget the Zionist terror groups in Palestine who were secretly corroborating with the Nazis in order to obtain a Jewish state in that area. "

"Originally Posted by Notch
Oh god... here we go again... thinly veiled anti semitism. Pathetic."


Actually, there is an ultra orthodox Israeli Rabbi called Amnon Yitzchak that has said the same thing, it is well documented in Israeli archives that the early zionists or revisionists did collaborate to a certain degree with the nazi's. Facts are not to be confused with politics but I hate when certain type throw the anti semetic card everytime they hear something they don't like. PM me if you want my sources but don't be so quick to use the old antisemite card just because the facts may be hard for you to swallow.


Thernlund. The top photo is of a Hesder Yeshiva student, photo taken in either Jerusalem or Hebron, probably Hebron because the law states that in Israel proper (inside the green line) weapons must be cleared of magazines and in any case even with an iserted magazine, the weapon is still kept in condition three. The bottom photo is not students but female soldiers off duty probably attending a seminar or training course. Students in Israel who are after their conscript years are not issued military weapons on a personal basis.

I love all the well intentioned misconceptions of those that believe that Israel has all the answers to our security needs. Israel has no constitution, does not even follow the Torah, is a socialist country vigorously controlled by an inept (see the Winograd report that came out today) corrupt government. The only ones they have fooled are the Zionist Christians and their Jewish Cheerleaders. There is a reason the very ultra orthodox very Jewish Neturei Karta are not on speaking terms with the State of Israel.

ieszu
January 30, 2008, 05:31 PM
George29 -

I agree with you on what R. Amnon Yitzchak has said, and you depiction of the the Israeli government is highly accurate.

However, Neturei Karta are not "Ultra-Orthodox Jews"... there is documented evidence of them violating the Sabbath (when they were in Iran meeting with Mahmoud Ahmedinejad). They are a small sect and disliked by all Ultra-Orthodox Jews for claiming the Holocaust did not happen, that Jews who live in Israel should be killed and for giving aid and comfort to terrorists.

There is a difference between not supporting a country because you disagree with its fundamental underpinnings and calling for the citizens death and destruction. Their view point is no different than Islamo-fascists terrorists everywhere.

george29
January 30, 2008, 09:01 PM
Thats why I dislike these kind of threads, too much dissention and far too much history and the subject always veers. The only thing we need to learn from and about Israel is how a good idea can easily go wrong and how the Unites States is doomed to repeat Israels mistakes if we do not safeguard the Constitution. Even so, it has been so eroded that we in the U.S no longer remember that we were born as a republic, not the quasi-socialistic nation we have become. Israelis are not true citizens, they are subjects to whomever is currently in power and how they determine to follow the law.

ieszu
January 30, 2008, 09:14 PM
George29 -

AMEN!

Jordan85
January 31, 2008, 01:26 AM
WOW! Quick recap fellas:
First post: Praising Israeli teachers for neutralizing terrorist threat to children
Second post: Agreement
Third post: CountGlockula doesn't think Israel is handing out guns quick enough to its citizens
and by the fourth post we are on to the anti-semitic, Israel-hating, Jews control the media blah blah blah from a few rednecks who, well, lets not get into that.....

First off, why is everyone talking about Israel's problems??? Has Israel killed any of your friends or family, bombed our country....??? It seems to me like there's about 4 or 5 other countries surrounding Israel that you should be concerned about if your worried about your own safety and not just bitching some anti-semitic rhetoric thats been preached a 1000 different times a 1000 different ways and still sounds about as ignorant and well thought-out as it did on its first run.

Second off, for members of our great country which was founded on the shoulders of people looking for a place to live and practice religion free of persecution, this thread seems to show a serious lack of empathy.

Then you have 230 who just can't believe ONE RABBI said that NOT EVERYONE is qualified to own a gun. What was it 230?? Mind boggling. Utterly mind boggling?? Who would ever think that a clergyman might say that wife abusers and drug-users aren't qualified to own a gun?? Just utterly mind-boggling. Your ignorance, 230, that is.....
Put that into perspective for you, 230, because I'm sure I need to break it down to you: that would basically be the equivalent of me being able to find ONE preacher who renounced guns (because I'm sure that would be so hard) and then saying I can't believe Christian people think like this, seeing as they've been through ___(pick your background's strife)_____.

Not to be outdone, El Tejon adds his two cents that it is amazing that a group of peaceful civilians could be taken over by and organized army so easily.

Still, Ja manages to take the cake by bringing the zionist conspiracy theory to the discussion.

I mean guys....REALLY??

Come on, let's get real. And to think all this discussion started as PRAISE for Israeli teachers being well trained and knowing how to handle the situation.

Like I said, if you are worried about the Middle-East, I think you should be looking elsewhere. I remember a certain two towers and pentagon being attacked a while ago. And oddly enough, while all of the attackers were from that region, none of them were Israeli Jews. Thats strange, because we all know the Jews did it......:scrutiny:

george29
January 31, 2008, 01:23 PM
Actually Jordan, my pet peeve about someone posting what could be a pure shooting experience and how the Israeli's handle it (which is so far OK) is that without fail, and as you already mentioned, the OP veers from a shooting post to a neo-political rant. IT ALWAYS HAPPENS. Israel, whether one likes them or not, is in the worlds bullseye. There is no other people or country that exudes such emotions from all sides of the religious and political specter, somehow, we all have an opinion on Israel.
I groan inwardly each time someone has this need to show US how THEY do things with the INTENT that WE need to EMULATE THEM in order to make our society work.
Having worked in Military Politics including working with Armed and Unarmed UN observation groups in that area, including a close relationship with their law enforcement community, I know that the Israeli way harms its own citizens as much as it harms its enemies. I'm not Israel bashing when they are fighting for their survival, on the other hand, what does one expect of a people that are fenced in three sides by barbed wire and the sea as a fourth to do, not be offensive in nature?
My other pet peeve is the complete inaccuracies and fallacies posted in the name of the Israelis. portrayed as Supermen and women when they are just regular people who chose to return to their land where the hostilities and animosities have been alive for the past 4000 years if one is to believe the bible (probably closer to 5000 years). If we call the Palestinians Philistines and we call Israelis Israelites, the only difference is that they now scalp each other with jet propelled Tomahawks. Bringing an Israeli solution to anywhere but Israel is therefore an act of futility on numerous plains.
The first is as previously stated; the historical aspect.
The second is that neither the Arab nations, NOR ISRAEL have any type of Constitution, Israel in fact calls itself The Closest Thing to Democracy in the Middle-East, it does not even call itself a Democracy. Well, taking into account their neighbors, that in itself is no boost to being a Democracy. If Israel were to state this and its neighbors were France, Germany and Holland, that would be a feat.
The third reason is that any attack Israelis fend off are presumed to be homocide attacks by suicidal people. This is not our first assumption here, not yet anyway.
The fourth is that there are certain individuals who are issued military owned weapons for self defense, here, all the weapons are privately owned.
Fifth, all shootings between Israelis and Palestinians committed over the green line are investigated by the special Shai unit over the green line and then a MILITARY prosecuter decides whether to prosecute the Israeli citizen.
Last; Israels system of law cannot in anyway be compared to 50 seperate systems in the US and that does not count all the thousands of divergent counties.
I figure though, some yahoo will make another post about Israel in a week or so, and I will do my best to grit my teeth and ignore it. All I know is that America is falling into an abyss of world socialism, Israel is a quasi-socialistic country without many of the benefits of true socialism nor true democracy, and we cannot take lesson from the Israelis because here we still have a written constitution that Israel does not.
H*ll, the Serbians had a way of dealing with their problem too, yet I don't see them mentioned at least once a week.

El Tejon
January 31, 2008, 01:31 PM
Jordan, deep breath. I come not to criticize anyone or blame them for all the trouble in the world, just making a historical observation which crosses many cultures. I'm not meshugana.:p

Try the zen thing like 230.:D

Thernlund
January 31, 2008, 01:42 PM
Thread-drift irreversible. Threadlock imminent.

george29
January 31, 2008, 02:43 PM
Threadlock imminent

We can only hope.

Autolycus
January 31, 2008, 03:13 PM
Actually Thernlund they are students however they are members of the armed forces in the country.

Israeli gun laws are very restrictive. Many gunowners have this idealistic belief that Israel is a very highly armed populace but they are not. The military has guns there, not the average citizen.

ArfinGreebly
January 31, 2008, 04:18 PM
This thread showed some promise.

There's very little I can do to clean it up at this point.

Too much cellular damage.

Sorry, guys.

Kudos for teachers defending themselves and their school against bad guys.

Wish we could do that here.

Thread-drift irreversible. Threadlock imminent.

Yup.

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