Loads Anemic?


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Rustynuts
January 25, 2008, 07:28 PM
I loaded some 45 XTP loads at around 4.9 gr of 231, CCI primers, new brass. OAL was on the short side, 1.22-1.23, some even in the 1.21 range. The felt recoil and sound were very anemic. Hardly any recoil at all compared to other target loads I've used. They shot and cycled the gun fine, and very accurate. Question is, when I loaded I was actually worried about them being too hot with a short OAL. What would an overpressure load feel like (not to a KB!)? Are they like hot loads, or does the pressure just build, then release with the bullet without any obvious recoil or noise? I looked at the brass a bit, but didn't see any case bulging or anything. I need to check the primers more closely to see if they expanded into the hole.

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Crimp
January 25, 2008, 07:48 PM
I loaded some 45 XTP loads at around 4.9 gr of 231, CCI primers, new brass. OAL was on the short side, 1.22-1.23, some even in the 1.21 range.

Which XTP, Rusty?

I normally load the 200 grainers to 6.3gr of 231 with Hornady's recommended OAL of 1.23". Hornady shows 6.4gr at 900 fps and 6.8gr (max) at 950 fps in a 5" bbl.

4.9gr of 231 would even be light with a 230gr XTP according to Hornady as their start load is 5.0gr of 231 for 700 fps.

Rustynuts
January 25, 2008, 07:54 PM
It's the 230gr JHP. I must have not checked Hornady! I was using some other recipe which had the typical 4.3-5.5 grains of 231, so I thought I was pushing it at a hair under 5.0. Where do you find the load data on Hornady's site?

hotwheelz
January 25, 2008, 08:00 PM
Well dont feel bad I loaded some .45 200rn with 3.6 of bullseye and I shot one of those plastic 50 gallon barrells in went in and rattled around never came out. We had a good laugh :D

Rustynuts
January 25, 2008, 08:34 PM
It was almost embarrasing. My 45 was sounding like a 32 or something. The guy next to me popping off a 357 sig didn't help either!

TEDDY
January 25, 2008, 09:05 PM
the experiance I have had is that a load that blowes out does not make much noise.I have been near a S&W 38 that blew the cylinder and top strap and did not make as much noise as normal load.damn exciting tho wondering where the top strap and site went..:uhoh:---:confused:--:rolleyes:

rcmodel
January 25, 2008, 09:15 PM
I know this is blasphemy, and against all known Internet reloading theory & gospel, but:

A change in Seating Depth that still looks like a loaded round should look, is not going to blow up your gun with any sane published load.
Period!

Safe published load data has to factor in bullet set-back should it happen, and still be safe.

Unless you are already pushing the ragged edge in some hot Magnum caliber or center-fire rifle, a 1/10" of an inch one way or the other is meaningless.

By all means, follow the published load data.
But if you need to seat .025" deeper to get them to feed in your gun, nothing bad is going to happen.

Bottom line is, don't worry about it so much.
There are many other mistakes you can make that will really have a noticeably bad result.

Like a double-charged light load, or grabbing the wrong powder can, or dumping the powder measure full of Bullseye in the 2400 can you left setting on the bench, or a few other things like that!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Walkalong
January 25, 2008, 09:33 PM
Ditto on what rcmodel said, especially with the low pressure .45 ACP.

As you found out, 4.9 grains of W-231 with a jacketed 230 grain pill is weak. Better to start there than to high though. Has anyone shown you this link to Hodgdon Powder Companys data (http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp)?

Data copied and pasted from there:

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 Longshot .451" 1.200" 6.3 848 14,100 CUP 6.8 908 17,200 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 HS-6 .451" 1.200" 8.0 790 14,400 CUP 8.2 825 15,400 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 Universal .451" 1.200" 5.1 716 11,800 CUP 5.6 844 16,800 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 HP-38 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 Titegroup .451" 1.200" 4.4 744 15,000 CUP 4.8 818 16,700 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 Clays .451" 1.200" 3.7 670 15,900 CUP 4.0 732 17,000 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 231 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP

And it's a bit conservative.

Crimp
January 25, 2008, 09:44 PM
Where do you find the load data on Hornady's site?
~ Rustynuts

Rusty, the data was out of Hornady's relaoding handbook. They don't have load data on line that I'm aware of.

By all means, follow the published load data.
But if you need to seat .025" deeper to get them to feed in your gun, nothing bad is going to happen.
~rcmodel

Nothing personal, but just for safety's sake, I gotta' say, I wouldn't do that. Maybe in a weak moment with a .45, but especially not with small, high-pressure rounds like a 9mm, max-loaded with one of the typical fast powders that many use. Isn't there a sacred rule, change a component, rework the load? ;)

SlamFire1
January 25, 2008, 10:29 PM
I developed some very mild loads with W231, but they are with lead 230 bullets. These loads shoot fine, they are accurate and function a M1911 Kimber Custom Classic 100% reliably. A jacketed bullet at the same charge level will be slower.

I do have a 230 FMJ load with W231 that works just excellently in a number of M1911s, and the average velocity is right at 800 fps, depending on day and pistol. Data below.

As for overpressure loads, obviously a blown case head will be proof positive. There is a lot of unsupported case head in a 45ACP and people have blown them. However well before you get there your cases will ejecting violently. The M1911 is designed to unlock and cycle with standard ammunition. High pressures will open that action too soon, the barrel pressure will be high as the slide cycles, the cases will be ejected fast and hard.

In time your frame will experience peening.


230 LRN 4.6 grs W231 Mixed Brass WLP
4-Sep-05 T = 92 F

Ave Vel = 732.5
Std Dev = 10.72
ES 40.15
High 752.1
Low 712
N = 32

230 LRN 4.8 grs W231 Mixed brass WLP
10-Jul-05 T = 84 F
OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"
Ave Vel = 767.3
Std Dev = 14.03
ES= 52.69
High = 793.4
Low = 740.7
N= 32

230 FMJ (GI) 5.5 grs W231 Mixed Brass WLP
18-Mar-07 T = 62 F OAL 1.265" taper crimp .469"
Ave Vel = 780.5
Std Dev = 14.17
ES = 51.66
High = 798.7
Low = 747
N = 23

Tarvis
January 25, 2008, 11:01 PM
Well dont feel bad I loaded some .45 200rn with 3.6 of bullseye and I shot one of those plastic 50 gallon barrells in went in and rattled around never came out. We had a good laugh

Plastic 55gal drums are bullet eaters. When they have them on a practical pistol stage and you see one move, you either get a miss or you shoot the target again. You'd think bullets would fly right through them but the initial impact is enough to kill most of the energy.

I was loading 4.9 gr of bullseye behind a 230 gr 45acp for a competition load to barely make the major caliber power factor (minimum is 750 fps for 230gr 45). If youre shooting for accuracy and your load is accurate with no obvious signs of high pressure, you're doing good. Most accurate loads aren't full power loads anyhow. If its sound you're embarrased about, yell "BANG" after you pull the trigger :D.

Rustynuts
January 26, 2008, 09:35 AM
Walkalong, I was using Hodgden as a source, but notice it's all FMJ or LRN and I had JHP. Their range was 4.3-5.3 at 1.20, so I assumed I was getting into the yellow zone too with JHP at ~5.0. I only have the Lyman, Lee, Accurate Powder, and Midway Loadmap data right now. MidwayUSA sent me the wrong powder loading data when I bought my 231 So I don't have Winchester's (which is Hodgden anyway now)

Galil5.56
January 26, 2008, 09:58 AM
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 HP-38 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP

Maybe outa a carbine... I know it's published data, just the same I would like to see what a few shooters with chronographs would actually discover. Wouldn't be surprised if mid-to-hi 500's was what the 4.2 gr got, and very low 700's for 5.3 gr in a 1911. Geez, I can remember when 5.6 grains of WW231/HP38 and a 230 jacketed bullet was a starting load, and that's not even from the Speer "blow-up" manual.

evan price
January 26, 2008, 10:09 AM
Try again at 5.3 grains of 231. The max load includes a safety factor, which has another safety factor included, plus it's lower than it was years ago.

jfh
January 26, 2008, 11:08 AM
Evan has it right, and Galil.556 recalls data I consider normal.

I just tried a 'new' Hodgdon recipe in another powder, and I was astounded at how downgraded it was. (SR-4756 and 38/357--the load range currently published feels about like 148 DEWC bullseye loads in my 340 feel.)

One theory for the reason these kind of recipes have shown up is that Hodgdon is trying to kill off the 'other brands' of powders they have bought up. Another is that they are parsing data from a 10" pressure barrel too carefully, and there is always the popular CYA liability theory.

Whatever it is, it is mis-guiding new reloaders, as this opening post and thread clearly shows.

Jim H.

Galil5.56
January 26, 2008, 11:53 AM
Galil.556 recalls data I consider normal.

And I still load 230 grain Gold Dots over 6.1 grain max WW231 (they use a 225 gr JHP) in a P220, and 1911A1 with no pressure problems at all. This max is from Speer #10, and IMO their data for many calibers seems reasonable, and in line with my chronographing experience.

5.7 grains WW231/HP38, and a .451 230 grain FMJ will get you 825-ish fps from a 1911. Personally I use AA#5 for stout 45 auto loads, and they chronograph well above std ball with good accuracy and no pressure problems I can see.

jfh
January 26, 2008, 07:37 PM
The only 'problem' I have found with 231 is some case expansion at the web when I am shooting near max; for my barrels, it can make resizing a task needing to be completely done. (That, and the combusion-efficiency / dirtiness issue, but that's usually solved by further adjustment.)

At the same time, there are NO other overpressure signs--but I do treat it as a powder best suited to low-medium loads.

Try it at 5.3 - 5.6 gr., Rustynuts, and see what you think.

Jim H.

Walkalong
January 26, 2008, 10:33 PM
W-231 is a bit fast for full power 230 Gr loads in the .45 ACP, for my taste anyway. It starts getting "snappy".

I agree with Galil.556. I like AA #5 if I want to push a 230 grain JHP or FP at top velocities. I have shot 6.1 Grs of W-231 and it is nowhere near as comfortable as a full charge of AA #5.

WSF is another good one for full power .45 loads.

People worry way to much about O.A.L. and pressures with the .45 ACP. Like rcmodel said, if it is a reasonable enough O.A.L. to look right, it's no problem.

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