[Cellar Dweller]

Discuss, please, the merits of 9mm vs. .45 vs. 5.56 vs. .308 etc etc...

:confused:

















loaded to 10,000 CUP.:scrutiny:
Thought so.:p
If you can still justify one over the other, lather rinse and repeat at 5000 CUP :what:

[Mike Irwin]

At 5,000 CUP it's doubtful whether the rifle bullets would leave the barrel.

Iffy on the pistol rounds.

10K CUP it's still iffy if the rifle bullets will leave the barrel.

The 9mm and .45 should, but you'll be able to throw them with more force.

[Andrew Wyatt]

well, at 10K cup, your glock will only KB half as much! :)

[jsalcedo]

My 45acp loads are loaded to 17000 cup 230 grain at about 750.

I have accidentally loaded down to 10,000 cup or less with my .45

It sounded quieter than a .22 and the bullet hit the target sideways
tearing ripping a big hole in the paper instead of punching through it.

The gun did not cycle.


The only thing I could think of would be 10,000 cup loads in black powder
revolvers.

[Skunkabilly]

What's a cup? Isn't that something you put on when doing Simunitions? :confused:

[jsalcedo]

Copper units of pressure.


If you practice with simunitions they don't make a cup big enough

[Justin]

lol @ Skunk.

The CUP is a standard way of measuring pressure. But I forget what it stands for.

As I recall, the original intent for the S&W .500 was that it would be loaded at 70,000-75,000 CUPs, but apparently at that sort of pressure the brass will flow too much for it to be a viable case material.

I have no idea if the above information is true or not, so take it with a grain o' salt.

[MountainPeak]

CUP=Can't Understand Pressure or Cellar understands pressure or, CAN"T U PLEASE leave caliber wars alone.

[Dave R]

To translate Cellar Dweller's post for non-reloaders...

If you handload these various calibers to pretty light levels, which comes out on top.

I think.

[Mannlicher]

Do a little research, read some. There are demerits as well, ya know.

And for 'caliber wars', no one in the history of firearms magazines, or BBS, has EVER changed another's mind. It is always a big, dumb waste of time and bandwidth.

[Old Fuff]

I think "C.D.'s" idea is great! Now I can use all of my top-break revolvers again, and I won't have too worry about "punishing" recoil.

[Skunkabilly]

I couldn't find a cup big enough at Walmart so I showed up to training with a shirt stuffed in my pants...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=405805

"Simunitions--The pain is only temporary. But the chicks dig the scars."

[10-Ring]

chicks dig the scars

Yeah, but what do female Korean snipers think?

[Cellar Dweller]

Mike Irwin almost but not quite got where I was going with this, or perhaps it's too obvious. (?)

10K CUP it's still iffy if the rifle bullets will leave the barrel.

The 9mm and .45 should, but you'll be able to throw them with more force.

Example: 380 is underpowered as everyone knows...lengthen the case for more powder and it goes faster and you get 9mm (better). Now you can use a longer, heavier bullet (say 9mm/125gr)...enlarge the case diameter for MORE powder and you get 357SIG.

But a .357SIG cartridge, loaded with a 95 grain bullet and roughly the same powder as a 380 is NO MORE POWERFUL than a standard 380 round. If you could pack the same energy (somehow) into a 380 cartridge and use a 125 grain bullet, it'd be NO MORE POWERFUL than 357SIG.

What I'm trying to get at is there is no right answer, it's all compromise. When you download to 5000 CUP, caliber doesn't matter. If you could upload to, say, 100,000 CUP (without worry of kB) then it wouldn't matter either.

Different calibers exist for a reason, be it marketing, efficiency, tradition, etc. It just isn't worth stressing out over.

[Mike Irwin]

Oh yeah, one other thing...

Now days CUP, and LUP (Lead Units of Pressure, mainly used for shotgun shells), is pretty much a thing of the past.

Actual chamber pressure measured with pizo-electric strain gauges is what's going now.

[blades67]

What if we try loading them to 5000 PSI?:neener:

[Don Gwinn]

I'm not sure I understand. It seems like you're saying that there's not really any difference between .380 and .357 SIG because "if you could somehow pack the same powder/energy into .380 with the same bullet you use in a .357 SIG, then it would be the same power as .357 SIG."

I don't follow you. .357 SIG and .380 are, in reality, different. The fact that you can pretend that a .380 can be pushed at the same level with the same bullet as a .357 does not mean that it actually can. Thus the calibers ARE different. In the real world, .357 SIG is more powerful than .380. No ifs, ands, or buts.


So, folks, which is the great American sports car--the Cobra, the Corvette, or the Viper?
OK, quick now! Which is the best if you fill all their tanks with diesel?!?

[blades67]

So, folks, which is the great American sports car--the Cobra, the Corvette, or the Viper?
OK, quick now! Which is the best if you fill all their tanks with diesel?!?


The one with the Cummins turbo diesel. Like that was hard.:scrutiny:


:D

[seeker_two]

I couldn't find a cup big enough at Walmart so I showed up to training with a shirt stuffed in my pants...

Skunk, you worry me sometimes...:what:

My answer: .45LC loaded to the brim w/ black powder. Worked for the US Cavalry...:D

[themic]

yeah, it seems like you're trying to make a point by eliminating all the points of contention, the trade-offs between diameter, weight, density, power, capacity, recoil, etc... so basically you've made no point at all. "if you made no trade-offs, there'd be no difference." well, yeah.

[themic]

btw, in all the years of caliber wars, I've become tolerant of 9mm and 380 and 38 special and even of mouseguns where appropriate. does that count as a conversion? i now carry a 9mm. i want a mousegun, though. a tiny mousegun.

[Cellar Dweller]

OK, Cor-Bon .40 or Federal Personal Defense 10mm?
Cor-Bon .38spl +P or a .357mag loaded to 38spl levels?

I used .380/9mm/357SIG only as an example because they could use the same weight and diameter bullet. The larger chamber and brass size allow for:
1. longer, heavier bullet (same diameter) = more energy
2. more powder = more velocity=more energy
3. NOTHING else (OK, bottlenecks are allegedly more reliable feeding, the tradeoff is they are more of a PITA to reload)

In other words, what's on the headstamp doesn't make it automatically magic. If it throws the SAME bullet at the SAME velocity it doesn't matter!:banghead: A real-world example:
124/125-grain .355/.356" diameter bullet at 1200fps from 9mm, 38 Super, 357SIG, or 357 Magnum. Other than the launching platform, what's the difference? If you fired them from a Thompson Contender, there WOULD BE NO DIFFERENCE.


Mouseguns: I'd like one of those Russian 5.45mm thingies. :evil:

[Mike Irwin]

"What's the difference?"

Well, quite frankly, often times is the makeup of the bullet itself, which can mean a HUGE difference.

In order for it to really be the same, the bullet would have to have the same design, and I'm not talking about a hollow point vs an FMJ.

I'm talking about if you're comparing a Speer Gold Dot in 9mm to a .357 Mag., it ALSO has to be a Speer Gold Dot.

[New_comer]

10K CUP it's still iffy if the rifle bullets will leave the barrel.

The 9mm and .45 should, but you'll be able to throw them with more force. I won't rush into that conclusion just yet, Mike...

Theoretically, at 10k CUP, the blast would give a 9mm about a thousand pounds of push, around 1600 lbs for the 45...

Let's just say even Mariano Rivera can't bean a man quite as hard as what's being proposed...

I'd guess a 9mm would be propelled at a still dangerous speed, more so with the 45, though both won't stay afloat as far....

[New_comer]

Come to think of it, shotguns are loaded at a measly 11Kpsi, but that doesn't stop it from being the meanest fighting tool for HD. ;)