most accurate semi-auto 308


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futureranger
January 25, 2008, 10:53 PM
i was wondering what your guy's thoughts were on the most accurate semi-auto 308. some people say a NM M1A, but i have also heard about the HK PSG-1 and DPMS 308 Ar's, im sure there are others but i was hoping you all could help with that.

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taliv
January 25, 2008, 11:00 PM
something to look at: http://www.knightarmco.com/images/sr25.html

disclaimer: i've had mine for quite some time, but sadly have not had the opportunity to fire it. (waiting for suppressor and glass) I have VERY high expectations.

Will Learn
January 25, 2008, 11:06 PM
I shot a sub-moa (5 shot)group today with my DPMS LR-308 using hand loads. It usually shoots around 1 1/2inch groups consistently. I'm working on loads to keep it at a consistent MOA or better, which I know the rifle is capable of. The thing weighs a ton though.

MarshallDodge
January 26, 2008, 01:27 AM
I agree with taliv, Stoner makes a nice rifle but out of my price range. I got to shoot one about 10 years ago and was amazed.

I opted for the DPMS LR308 instead. For the money (~$1000) I don't think they can be beat for semi-auto accuracy. Mine has shot half MOA groups at 200 yards.

Javelin
January 26, 2008, 01:39 AM
DPMS LR308 instead

DPMS is up and coming in the AR world it seems. Which ones are the folks at Camp Perry using these days? Last I checked it was RRA builds with custom barrels, but that was some time ago.

:)

General Geoff
January 26, 2008, 01:44 AM
I'd say the HK PSG-1 is up there, but good luck actually finding one.


Otherwise I'd say some kind of AR-10.

Rifleman 173
January 26, 2008, 02:48 AM
I'm partial to the M1As. Great rifles!! I've owned two in my day and plan on getting another soon. I've shot both the AR-10 type rifles and the M1As. The AR-10s are good out of the box and if you're new to long range shooting they are a good thing to go with and use. If you know things about the M1As then they're apt to be better for some shooters. If I were going to get an AR-10 type rifle, I would look for a slightly used, not abused or shot out, Bushmaster rifle. The Bushmaster AR-10 type rifles use the FN/FAL magazines which are a ton cheaper than other magazines for either the M1A or other AR-10 rifles.

MachIVshooter
January 26, 2008, 03:08 AM
Knights SR-25 and Armalite AR-10(T)/SASS are pretty much top of the heap for production stuff.

bogie
January 26, 2008, 03:49 AM
Please don't use the words "accurate" and "semi-auto" in the same sentence.

If you want to learn to shoot, and shoot accurately, get a good bolt action Remington 700, with a .308-size bolt face, and get it rebarreled with a select match heavy barrel, and put one of Arnold Jewell's triggers on it.

Or you can stay with the tacticool spray and pray crowd.

Kind of Blued
January 26, 2008, 04:21 AM
Or you can stay with the tacticool spray and pray crowd.

That whole post was a little harsh and unhelpful, not that I disagree with the message. I'll give my two cents however.

LONG ANSWER: I've been having an AR dilemma, trying to decide how many and what kind I should get. What I keep reminding myself of is that I need to buy the guns that I KNOW will give me the results that I want.

I love emptying a 30-round AK mag on an inanimate target as much as the other guy, and the AK is great for that.

The AR is a compromise, and there is no way to make it NOT a compromise. It is the best at, perhaps, nothing.

So instead of a DPMS LR 204, I am planning on buying a Remington XR100 Rangemaster, etc, etc, etc.

Basically, what it comes down to is that I want the DPMS SASS in .308 with a fantastic scope and a rail-tastic M4 with stuff all over it because you can't make any other firearm LOOK that cool. They are, of course, still wonderful firearms for many situations.

Short Answer: I haven't shot them all.

JWarren
January 26, 2008, 07:27 AM
Please don't use the words "accurate" and "semi-auto" in the same sentence.

BS. Is that why we see so many sub-MOA AR varmit rifles?

I've fired Bolt actions all my life, and I know the accuracy of a quality one. But I also know what is going on in world today.

Or you can stay with the tacticool spray and pray crowd.

Sounds like Hillary and Obama's message is getting to you, Bogie.


-- John

Grunt
January 26, 2008, 08:05 AM
Please don't use the words "accurate" and "semi-auto" in the same sentence.

If you want to learn to shoot, and shoot accurately, get a good bolt action Remington 700, with a .308-size bolt face, and get it rebarreled with a select match heavy barrel, and put one of Arnold Jewell's triggers on it.

Or you can stay with the tacticool spray and pray crowd.


Thank you Jim Zumbo for your insight.:rolleyes: My M1A DMR clone will go into 3/4" groups any given day and into 1/2 inch groups on a good day when I have my poop together. Not too bad for some inaccurate spray and pray semi-auto buzz gun! While I don't have one yet, lets look at the AR-10, many other shooters that do own one also claim excellent groups that will give any boltguna run for it's money as well. So based on my personal experiences as well as the results I've heard from other shooters with accurate semi-autos, I believe that the best course of action is to take you with a grain of salt and ignore you.

JWarren
January 26, 2008, 08:06 AM
From a DMPS LR-308 Stainless Steel 24" heavy barrel using commercial Winchester Ballistic Silvertips @ 100 yards:


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=71825&d=1201349136



-- John

stubbicatt
January 26, 2008, 08:26 AM
Now that is shooting well for you JWarren. I get about an inch out of my PTR91 with most any ammo.

JWarren
January 26, 2008, 08:30 AM
Now that is shooting well for you JWarren.


Thanks.... but fair is fair-- It's not my shooting, and not my rifle. That is from another poster that I know in another forum.

Stay tuned though... I have a project rifle in mind that will start with a DPMS LR-308. I've seen enough to know that the rifle can do what I need it to do. It remains to be seen if I'll do my part. :)


-- John

gcrookston
January 26, 2008, 08:37 AM
My M1a is sub MOA. The Psg1, although claiming to be MOA has, in my experience, never got better than 1.5 - 2.0. The Cobb MCR was on my hit list to get a .338 semi, with demonstrated 0.5 moa accuracy, but I think they sold out late last year, and I've not been able to find them again.

my m1a 3/3 shot groups during sight-in @ 100 yrds:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4961/dsc00133sv2.jpg
Shot with CYBERSHOT (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=CYBERSHOT&make=SONY) at 2006-07-24

Baba Louie
January 26, 2008, 10:01 AM
Please don't use the words "accurate" and "semi-auto" in the same sentence.
Muahahahahaha

Bogie, Please... tell that to this man... arguably a world class rifleman, with a straight face. :D

http://www.davidtubb.com/about_david.html

Now maybe he's not using a "production run" rifle straight off the shelves of his local gunshop, or your average run o' the mill ammunition bought at WallyWorld, but the man (and the man's rifles) can shoot a little, wouldn't you agree?

JWarren
January 26, 2008, 11:32 AM
I was thinking....

Before someone comes on the thread and talks about "out-of-the-box" or "standard configuration" accuracy, I thought I'd address it.

Some people will say that you CAN make a Semi-auto accurate, but it takes a great deal of "customization" and that this makes it an apples-to-oranges comparison to a "standard" bolt action. They will say that a CUSTOM Semi-auto can approach the accuracy of a STANDARD bolt action.


"Out-of-the-box" and "standard" configuration are meaningless terms in this day and age.

Firearms are basically customized on the fly now. Even in bolt actions, there are numerous options that range from stocks to barrels. As anyone every paid attention to how many Remington 700 models have been made?

In building a AR platform, the buyer typically selects from a list of options that may include Stainless barrels, competition triggers, etc.

Same principle.


If I were to order an Armalite AR-10(T), I am certain I'd receive it in a "box." Should I then consider this a "Standard" Configuration for the AR-10(T)?

If I ordered a Remington 40X, would I consider that the standard for a bolt action rifle if it were shipped in a box?

Or Should I consider a Remington 700 PSS Tactical in the same terms? I don't know...after all, it is fitted into a pillar bedded HS Custom Stock.

The fact is that to find out what "original" or "Out-of-the-box" configuration even IS for many rifles, you'd probably have to do some research.

The best we can do is compare rifles build for certain roles. It would not be fair to compare a LW-308 with a 16' M4 profile barrel to a Remington Sendaro with a heavy profile stainless 26" barrel.

Nor would it be fair to compare the above mentioned AR-10(T) to a Mosin Nagant.


The Bolt Action platform IS probably the most rigid and best-suited platform for building an accurate rifle. But that-- IN NO WAY-- negates the reality that a Semi-auto can be configured to hold competion-level accuracy. We have FAR too many people proving that every day.




My 2 cents.



-- John

General Geoff
January 26, 2008, 12:37 PM
The bottom line is that bolt actions are inherently more accurate, but semi autos can certainly overcome that built-in deficit if built properly.

Grunt
January 26, 2008, 02:36 PM
I think that is one more trueism that is going the way of the dodo the way we always said that the revolver was inherently more reliable than the auto. That may have been true back in the day when we were looking at the 1911, Hi-Power, S&W Model 39, the P38 and PP were about the only offerings in the auto world. However, today we see Glock, H&K, Sig, Beretta and a host of others that have been proving themselves as being extremely reliable. Reliable enough say that while in theory the revolver is more reliable, in practice there really isn't much of a difference anymore. I think the addage of bolt rifles being more accurate than autos still holds true for the time being but is being erroded away to a point where it's really going to be nothing more than accademics in the near future. Already it's been proven over and over again that a lot of semi-autos are NOT the inaccurate spray and pray weapons that the anti-gunners and Fudds make them out to be.

MarshallDodge
January 26, 2008, 07:46 PM
Please don't use the words "accurate" and "semi-auto" in the same sentence.

If you want to learn to shoot, and shoot accurately, get a good bolt action Remington 700, with a .308-size bolt face, and get it rebarreled with a select match heavy barrel, and put one of Arnold Jewell's triggers on it.

Or you can stay with the tacticool spray and pray crowd.


When I bought my first bolt action, a Remington 700, the guy at the gun shop told me the same thing. I had it for about a year and it shot tight little groups at 100 yards. My buddy had built an AR-15 as a target rifle and wanted to sell it. He was upgrading to an AR-10 and let me borrow the AR-15 one day to take to the range.

Here are my groups from both guns, the one on the left is a five-shot from the AR and the one on the right is from the Rem 700:
http://home.comcast.net/~bdkirk11/guns/artarget.jpg

After that I was sold on the accuracy of AR based rifles.

browningguy
January 26, 2008, 07:59 PM
Quote:
Or you can stay with the tacticool spray and pray crowd.

That whole post was a little harsh and unhelpful, not that I disagree with the message.

Not only is it harsh and unhelpful, it's just plain wrong. The fact is my most absolute accurate rifle is a bolt action, not a Remington in need of a trigger job though, it's a Savage 12FV with the accutrigger. Since I settled on a handload it's averaged in the high.3"'s. My next most accurate rifle is a AR15, DPMS 16" bull barreled upper with free float tube, and it only averages about .1" bigger groups at 100 yards. At 300 and 600 yards the Savage wins by more, but I think if I had equivalent glass and a 24" barrel on the AR it would stay close.

I also am considering a DPMS in either .243 or .260, they can take the heavy bullets in both calibers and I am confident it will keep up with most sporter weight bolts out to 600.

futureranger
January 26, 2008, 08:02 PM
Thanks for the feedback, but the question was what is the most accurate SEMI-AUTO, not lets compare a semi-auto and a bolt-action accuracy, but the semi auto feedback was helpful thanks.:)

GunTech
January 26, 2008, 11:26 PM
I've owned an SR-25, two AT-10(T)s and am now shooting an M1A.

The SR-25 was nice, but KAC has horrible customer service and the gun is not really worth the price. I had both my AR-10s built with custom barrels, and either would shoot 1/2 MOA or better all day long. I printed many 5 round groups under 1/4 inch.

I bought the M1As mostly for nostalgia. Despite lots of work on my first M1A, it would never do better than 1/2 MOA, and was more like 3/4 MOA with handloads and the JAE-100 stock. It's a pain to scope an M1A, and no decent mount is what you would call 'reasonably' priced. I've heard people claim to have 1/4 M1As, but I've never seen one at the range or at a match. I love my M1As, but they are not sub MOA guns.

If I wanted a super-accurate semi, I'd get an AR-10 (these are usually a little more reliable than the DPMS, YMMV) and send it off to someone like GA precision.

Finally, the PSG-1 has this killer reputation, because almost no one has seen one. I had a chance to shoot one that belongs to a class III collector I know. He paid something like $13,000 for it a while ago. I don't think many made it into the US. It is a 1 MOA rifle. A tuned AR-10 will kick it's a**.

rangerruck
January 27, 2008, 04:29 AM
saiga...

Peter M. Eick
January 27, 2008, 10:33 AM
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/sm_targets2.jpg
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/nm_target.jpg


Here is the true test of a rifle. Put a bunch or rounds down it and see how it does. The top is my Supermatch with 50 shots in each target off the bench at 100 yrds. The bottom is the NationalMatch with the same setup. Also both were shot quickly, meaning a reasonable pace, but not take a shot and let the gun cool. All 50 were expended in under 20 minutes because that would be a target change.

When I see groups of just a few shots like some above, I say they were lucky. Get some mag changes in there, get some hot barrels etc.

This is where the M1A shows its capability over conventional rifles in my opinion.

YMMV.

sturmgewehr
January 27, 2008, 11:07 AM
Having owned a PSG1 I can say they are accurate but not worth the money they command. They won't out shoot more modern offerings for a fraction of the price.

H2O MAN
January 27, 2008, 11:15 AM
futureranger


most accurate semi-auto 308 was wondering what your guy's thoughts were on the most accurate semi-auto 308.

The AR-10/SR-25 can be very accurate for the first few shots, but if you want a gas gun that is
both accurate and reliable ... look no further than a well massaged example of the M14 platform.

I recently sold my ArmaLite AR-10 SPR to help fund another M14 build :cool:

My Crazy Horse MK14 SEI Mod 0 tactical scout shoots sub-MOA with Portuguese surplus ball ammo.
The barrel: Unlined 18.0" medium heavy, 4 groove, 1:10 ROT with M80HT.
The SAGE EBR stock tension beds the action, semi free-floats the barrel and unitizes the gas system.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/TBCS-C.jpg

SlamFire1
January 27, 2008, 01:48 PM
Please don't use the words "accurate" and "semi-auto" in the same sentence.

If you want to learn to shoot, and shoot accurately, get a good bolt action Remington 700, with a .308-size bolt face, and get it rebarreled with a select match heavy barrel, and put one of Arnold Jewell's triggers on it.

Or you can stay with the tacticool spray and pray crowd.

Great post because it allows rants.

The most common rifle on the line at Camp Perry is the Space gun. I have witnessed National records set with these rifles. The second most common rifle is the bolt operated Tubb rifle.

For the last couple of years someone using the Tubb rifle has placed first at Camp Perry. Considering that David Tubb has been the dominant shooter at the Nationals, it should be no surprise that most of the wins with the Tubb rifle were by David Tubb. Most of the "Top Dogs" use a Tubb.

However this year, Carl Bernosky won with a rifle based on the AR. I met the designer in the pits. The cartridge was the 6 mm Hagar. http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2007/10/25/bernosky-sets-new-nation-high-power-record/ David Tubb, with a Tubb rifle placed second.

The great bolt guns, such as the M700 and M70, are still as accurate as ever, and the bolt dominates the long range crowd. I shot my M70 yesterday in a 1000 yard match, but after shooting my own semi autos, and having witnessed the groups fired by World class shooters, at some level the human error error is still the greatest source of inaccuracy.

H2O MAN
January 27, 2008, 02:51 PM
Semi-Auto... no bolt guns allowed :neener:

Cesiumsponge
January 27, 2008, 07:58 PM
This is my opinion, but I would say bolt-actions are the simplest and most repeatable firearm platforms, hence giving the most consistency and repeatability which is crucial for achieving the smallest groups. Semi-autos have a lot more moving parts that will not repeat as well round-to-round. They get dirty faster, and are more picky because they need to cycle rounds to function properly. I plan on aquiring a Sako TRG series or the AW series from AI eventually.

That said, semi-automatic firearms have advanced a lot and they're quickly gaining ground in reliability and shrinking their group sizes. The AR rifles appear to be leading the pack on accurized semi-automatics. The M1A's have a loyal following as well.

Personally, I feel the PSG-1 is a fairly old rifle. And there is very little information on it, so its difficult to tell if it lives up to the mystique it has created. I've only handled one briefly so I can't speak to it's actual performance. The same applies to other rare firearms like the Walther WA2000. Rare doesn't mean top performing. If that were so, it's very probable world class competitors would be using these, despite their premium price because accuracy is final and price is secondary when they have gobs of money from their own pockets and sponsors.

I've read good things on the AR-10 from Armalite and the DPMS LR-308. Many people are getting 3/4MOA, even around the .5MOA mark. I have a DPMS LR-308 on order right now and it's going to be a long (but worthwhile) wait. I have heard that the SR-25s are overpriced by about a factor of 2-3x and you can build something similar at less than half the cost from DPMS or Armalite. I briefly handled one at a local show and it was impressive, but didn't seem special enough for the sticker price. You just don't get their cool crest logo and bragging rights of having an actual SR-25.

I suppose its the same animosity felt towards other AR15 rifle "clones" by Colt fans.

homers
January 27, 2008, 08:02 PM
What's the purpose of the gun? If hunting, then a semi-auto 308 would be killer in the woods. IF shooting at 1000yd targets from a bench, then I'd look for something else. In either situation, the gun is probably more accurate than most shooters, especially if you are in the field and not shooting from a bench.

H2O MAN
January 27, 2008, 08:15 PM
Well said :cool:

Cesiumsponge


This is my opinion, but I would say bolt-actions are the simplest and most repeatable firearm platforms, hence giving the most consistency and repeatability which is crucial for achieving the smallest groups. Semi-autos have a lot more moving parts that will not repeat as well round-to-round. They get dirty faster, and are more picky because they need to cycle rounds to function properly. I plan on aquiring a Sako TRG series or the AW series from AI eventually.

That said, semi-automatic firearms have advanced a lot and they're quickly gaining ground in reliability and shrinking their group sizes. The AR rifles appear to be leading the pack on accurized semi-automatics. The M1A's have a loyal following as well.

Personally, I feel the PSG-1 is a fairly old rifle. And there is very little information on it, so its difficult to tell if it lives up to the mystique it has created. I've only handled one briefly so I can't speak to it's actual performance. The same applies to other rare firearms like the Walther WA2000. Rare doesn't mean top performing. If that were so, it's very probable world class competitors would be using these, despite their premium price because accuracy is final and price is secondary when they have gobs of money from their own pockets and sponsors.

I've read good things on the AR-10 from Armalite and the DPMS LR-308. Many people are getting 3/4MOA, even around the .5MOA mark. I have a DPMS LR-308 on order right now and it's going to be a long (but worthwhile) wait. I have heard that the SR-25s are overpriced by about a factor of 2-3x and you can build something similar at less than half the cost from DPMS or Armalite. I briefly handled one at a local show and it was impressive, but didn't seem special enough for the sticker price. You just don't get their cool crest logo and bragging rights of having an actual SR-25.

I suppose its the same animosity felt towards other AR15 rifle "clones" by Colt fans.

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