[Chinaski]

Hi folks, it's my first post, would like to say that THR is a great source for information!

I have an 870 wingmaster that is about a year old now. I've only used it to shoot skeet and trap, have not had the resources to organize a hunt yet. I've patterned it a few different times (when I first got it to recently) with a setup similar to what is described on the faq on this forum. However, I don't see a significant difference between the patterns using the 3 different chokes that came with the gun. My intuition says that the different types of ammo I have been using (Rottweil, remington skeet/trap loads) is made to only throw one pattern. Is this possible, or do you think it could be a problem with the chokes themselves? My dad's old mossberg 20 ga. has a huge difference in patterns with different barrels with different chokes.

Kind of long winded, I guess my question is why isn't there a bigger difference between patterns using different chokes?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

[sm]

Welcome to THR !
I highly recommend Shotgunning: The Art and The Science -Bob Brister
You'll probably need to check with Amazon.com, it's an older book , chocked full of serious information.

"Patterns are a matter of bore-not choke"-Brister.
Pattern boards can be tricky to learn, but follow me. One can take a .410 full choke and a 12 ga full choke--lets use skeet loads. Shoot a 30" circle and the pattern appears the same--fills up the circle--right? The difference is the density of the pattern. Using #9 shot you have ~ 290 pellets (1/2 oz for .410) vs ~ 585 pellets (1 oz for 12 ga). These do NOT arrive at the target at the same time either btw.

This is why a .410 is less effective past say 20-25 yds, the pattern of the 12 bore is much more effective because of bore, payload , and the ability to have density.

Extreme example using the 410 vs the 12, but the principle is the same.

Pattern at various distances will show better the difference in chokes. Take your IC choke and pattern at 40 yds, then do the same load with FC and shoot at 40 yds.

The only contant in shotgunning is--NO absolutes exist. ;)

There are some weird quirks though:
The payload to bore of a 28 ga is very effective (short shot strings).
The "pigeon load" 1 1/4 oz of # 7 1/2 hard shot and the "old rabbit load" of 1 1/4 oz of #6 hard shot..seems to pattern well out of most 12 bores regardless of choke. I believe this has to do with the hard shot myself more than anything else-IMO

The important thing is your using a pattern board, and asking questions...with some fun mixed in with good folks.

There are many that can help you here, if my suggestions do not agree with the 'big boys' here...toss my ideas and listen to them.

HTH

[Dave McCracken]

Good work, you're doing your own research.

73 covered things well, but let me add a little...

It's quite possible that your chokes are not quite as specified. Remingtons of late have had some QC issues, and it's possible that there's less difference in the constriction than there should be.

IC is SUPPOSED to be about .010" below bore diameter. With Remington barrels made to a .729" standard, that would mean an IC choke would run .719".

Mod,in theory would go.709" and Full .699".

But, often choke tube makers figure .005" is close enough, and non spec stuff does slip through. You may have off spec tubes, only miking will tell.

Also, try those three chokes at 15 yards(use eye and ear protection always but especially here) and note extreme spread. Bet it differs greatly.

HTH...

[Chinaski]

Thank you both, much more than I had hoped for. I ordered the Brister book this afternoon from the bookstore down the street, should be here in a week or so. I never really thought about the pattern densities, but I'm still a bit confused, once again thanks for your help. Planning another trip to the range this weekend, which should help a lot too :D

Re1973, I think I understand what you mean, but it is something I am new to, so let me see if I have this straight;
-The patterns thrown by the 12 gauge appear to vary less than the ones thrown by the 20 ga. because the 20 has less pellets to go around...
and maybe
-The relative distribution of the pellets on whatever two dimensional surface that I am shooting may look about the same for different chokes, but when they are flying through the air they spread out front to back as well as sideways, and pellets from the 12 gauge go faster than those from smaller gauges ...

lol...I think I need to read the book or look at some graphs or something :)

Dave McCracken,
Looking up close at my chokes they they don't look that much different .. what really strikes me though is that they don't look perfectly round. I'll measure them more scientifically tomorrow, but I'll probably look into getting some new ones. I'll make sure to include a 15 yard test, have not measured the distance in the past.

Thanks.

[sm]

Hey if you figure this stuff out -let me know would you :D

Get your garden hose, take off the nozzle dealie, and turn the water on full blast. Now put the nozzle on and go from as "open" to as "tight", as you can. The "string" is the spray of water--it does not all reach the side of the house at the same time, as it is getting there area is being "filled-up"...but different loads, chokes, hardness of shot affect the string and pattern.

That help? The Book, and testing will be a great help...and when you figure it out....'plain it to me...I do have a list of excuses...maybe I need to print them and make money...one cannot have too many excuses IMO :D

Keep us posted and share your findings, we are all still learning...I am anyway.

Best