Virginia open carry quesiton (VCDL)


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chris in va
January 28, 2008, 03:01 AM
This is a totally neutral concern, and I hope people will be mature enough to answer likewise.

I understand that there is technically no law against or for open carry in VA save for ABC licensed establishments.

I've tried OC a few times and half the time I either get interesting looks or verbal comments.

The VCDL is a great organization and I wholeheartedly appreciate their efforts. However...

Cutting to the chase, I'm concerned that groups of open carry folks might get a law put on the books rather than make people aware of the allowance.

There have been a few instances of people complaining about "a group of armed men" sitting down for dinner or crowding a gov't office. WTOP even had a news comment on the subject. I understand a few states have some sort of regulation against 'distressing the public' or somesuch, and I just don't want to see that verbage tacked on to the already massive pile of restrictions in the Commonwealth.

Believe me, I'd *much* rather open carry freely such as in AZ than have to tuck this thing under a jacket or shirt. But as I see it, open carry is more for the times when your shirt rides up and exposes your handle than it is to make everyone's eyes pop out and start fidgeting.

Comments?

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skidmark
January 28, 2008, 07:24 AM
Believe me, I'd *much* rather open carry freely such as in AZ than have to tuck this thing under a jacket or shirt. But as I see it, open carry is more for the times when your shirt rides up and exposes your handle than it is to make everyone's eyes pop out and start fidgeting.

So - Arizona has some special aura that makes folks not fidget at the sight of an openly-carried sidearm?

Sorry, Chris, that was a cheap shot. Intentional, but cheap.

I invite you to peruse www.opencarry.org and the Virginia page especially to get some ideas of why folks in the Old Dominion open carry. A lot of it has to do with your concern that "everyone's eyes [will] pop out and [they] start fidgeting."

Open carry is not restricted by any law in Virginia - as opposed to having been "made legal" by legislation. If you are going to carry in an establishment that serves alcohol for on-site consumption you must open carry. (Virginia's "restaurant ban" law :banghead::cuss::banghead:)

Many folks feel that in order to prevent the easily-scared people from getting a law enacted that prohibits open carry, the right to do so needs to be exercised. If enough people openly carry, folks might just get used to the idea that open carry is not threatening/dangerous/bad/evil. Maybe like what happened in Arizona? :evil:

While you are looking at the Virginia page at www.opencarry.org , look for the OCDO lunches & dinners in the NoVa area. You do not have to open carry to attend, but you will meet so fine folks who do.

BTW - as I understand it VCDL has no opinion one way or another regarding open carry. Their purpose is to protect all gun rights for all. Members of www.opencarry.org do support and encourage open carry.

stay safe.

skidmark

tinygnat219
January 28, 2008, 07:31 AM
Personally, I am against Open Carry. I think it's a silly practice that tends to draw unwanted attention. I only Open Carry when I work a gunshow for the VCDL (even then, it's an 1895 Nagant Revolver), when I dress up as a Cowboy for Cowboy Action Shooting, or I am hunting with my .44 Magnum Revolver. I also feel that there are some folks out there who like to push the envelope on this whole Open Carry thing.

You raise some good points regarding Open Carry. From what I have seen, the after effects of Open Carry are showing to be both positive and negative. Positive in the light that people just didn't know it before and are aware of it ESPECIALLY in the case of law enforcement, and negative in the light that it gives the antis ammunition about the perception of their "Wild West" predictions coming true. I also think that over time, more and more people will just get used to it and the antis' cries will simply be one more thing that they were whining about that didn't happen. I am seeing more positive than negative effects at this time.

Open Carry simply is what it is. While I personally don't agree with the practice, for a variety of reasons: identification as a potential danger by criminals, target of harassment by law enforcement, etc. I might change my mind in a few years and if I do, I want that right to be there. So, while I don't exercise this right, I will support those activists that are out there being the pioneers.

ZeSpectre
January 28, 2008, 08:36 AM
The reasons people do (or don't) open carry in VA are as widely varied as the reasons people choose different cars.

In general I don't have an issue with folks choosing to open carry as I don't believe that there is anything illegal or shameful about the ownership of firearms and it's important to fight the notion that bigotry against people who like/own firearms -simply for owning them- is anything less than prejudice. Good folks don't do bad things and carry (open or concealed) isn't going to change that at all.

On the other hand, I personally dislike "tipping my hand" and generally have a strong bias towards discrete carry. The relatively rare times I do open carry are usually because I'm making a point (or because I'm eating in an establishment that serves alcohol <sigh>).

RNB65
January 28, 2008, 09:24 AM
Cutting to the chase, I'm concerned that groups of open carry folks might get a law put on the books rather than make people aware of the allowance.

That's exactly what's going to happen. If enough folks complain about OC, then the General Assembly will eventually pass a law banning it. Or at least banning it in cities.
.

ZeSpectre
January 28, 2008, 09:40 AM
That's exactly what's going to happen. If enough folks complain about OC, then the General Assembly will eventually pass a law banning it. Or at least banning it in cities.

Which is why it's so great that 400+ WELL MANNERED folks showed up at "Lobby Day" in Richmond to air our viewpoint.

John4me05
January 28, 2008, 09:57 AM
I was on the open carry site a couple months back... But i chose to leave.. Some of what i read alarmed me... It seemed some were doing it for the shock and awe factor alone... Granted there were the fellers (and possibly ladies) that did it cause they can and it was no different than wearing a tank top in the summer but others seemed like they wanted to be the ones decked out in a tux with a cane at a beach party... While i would (and have) OCd a couple times i am with Tiny that it just isnt for me.. Im glad you an i can but its not a right i feel comfortable exercising... I draw enough attention as it is (6'8" and 380) so its hard enough for me to put people at ease as it stands now...

I applaud those of you and them that do it and act as if its nothing more than a comfy pair of slippers.... But i oppose those who feel they are in grade school and received a new pair of Air Jordans and seem to make it a point to show it off to as many people they can and are always wondering if others are jealous (in this instance scared) of them

RP88
January 28, 2008, 11:20 AM
I've seen people open-carry a few times. It doesnt bother me, but I usually dont see the point unless you work or pass through crime-ridden areas (I live in a relatively safe city, and I saw all three OCers at Wal-mart or the mall)

I also see no reason to carry just because its a right. Just because its your right doesnt mean that you should (even though you could) blatantly make it clear to others. In my opinion, doing such a thing--whether you're gay, atheist, religious, etc.--draws unnecessary trivial attention to something that nobody really cares about in the first place. It can also come off as annoying or rude, at least to me.

Of course, as said...thats just my opinion, and I can be a tad judgemental

ZeSpectre
January 28, 2008, 11:40 AM
I also see no reason to carry just because its a right. Just because its your right doesn't mean that you should

Now there we'll have to agree to disagree. A right unexercised has an awful tendency to go away.

Sage of Seattle
January 28, 2008, 12:07 PM
I also see no reason to carry just because its a right. Just because its your right doesnt mean that you should (even though you could) blatantly make it clear to others. In my opinion, doing such a thing--whether you're gay, atheist, religious, etc.--draws unnecessary trivial attention to something that nobody really cares about in the first place.

What an ill-conceived statement and highly insulting, caveat notwithstanding.

If enough folks complain about OC, then the General Assembly will eventually pass a law banning it.

So what do you care? You apparently find it useless anyway and it wouldn't touch your precious license to CC.

tinygnat219
January 28, 2008, 01:01 PM
Interesting posts regarding OC today. Looking forward to seeing what else is going on.

novaDAK
January 28, 2008, 02:54 PM
banning OC would then take away the right of self defense to those ineligible for a CC license.

Yes, there are non-criminals that can't get a CHP in VA.

RP88
January 28, 2008, 05:07 PM
What an ill-conceived statement and highly insulting, caveat notwithstanding.

thats why I said it was an opinion, not a fact or a good idea.

John4me05
January 28, 2008, 07:06 PM
If you click on the vid you will see why it wouldnt be good for me to OC... It shows how my size is a diadvantage to making people comfortable

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/john4me05/shooting/th_MVI_1492.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/john4me05/shooting/?action=view&current=MVI_1492.flv)

Sans Authoritas
January 28, 2008, 09:44 PM
As a person posted previously, why are you worried about people who open carry suddenly being prohibited from open carry, if you don't think people should open carry? As it is, you will gain nothing from being afraid to exercise a right. Personally, the more people I see carrying firearms in public, the better I feel.

The more people who are exposed to the fact that someone who is not a policeman is standing 5 feet away and carrying a firearm is not going to suddenly open fire when he gets upset about some trivial thing, the better.

As for cops hassling people? The cops are the problem: not the people being hassled.

-Sans Authoritas

chris in va
January 29, 2008, 12:41 AM
So - Arizona has some special aura that makes folks not fidget at the sight of an openly-carried sidearm?

Sorry, Chris, that was a cheap shot. Intentional, but cheap.

No no, not trying to make a cheap shot here. Heck you know me, I've shot with you guys and had a couple OC dinners.

But I'm basing the AZ thing on what I've read. It's much more OC friendly than VA. Totally different world out there.

EDIT: As you can see, I'm not the only one concerned about the issue.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum7/6041.html

Sage of Seattle
January 29, 2008, 01:39 AM
banning OC would then take away the right of self defense to those ineligible for a CC license.

Yes, there are non-criminals that can't get a CHP in VA.

Yes, there are non-criminals that can't get a CHP in every other state that issues permits as well as Virginia.

But you see it's kind of a catch-22 then, isn't it? If one open carries, well then, that's just gonna scare people into passing laws against open carry. But for those who have no choice but to carry openly, they will scare people into passing laws against carrying openly.

So, I guess for those who cannot lawfully conceal carry, they'll just have to leave their pistol at home, otherwise they'll lose the lawful ability to carry a pistol openly. Yeah. That makes sense.

I guess since either way, some people are going to be disarmed, I say force the legislature to grow a pair and try to pass that kind of law. After all, they don't have to do any work if they just cow you into submission, right?

skidmark
January 29, 2008, 05:02 AM
Quote:
So - Arizona has some special aura that makes folks not fidget at the sight of an openly-carried sidearm?

Sorry, Chris, that was a cheap shot. Intentional, but cheap.

No no, not trying to make a cheap shot here. Heck you know me, I've shot with you guys and had a couple OC dinners.

But I'm basing the AZ thing on what I've read. It's much more OC friendly than VA. Totally different world out there.

MY guess is that Arizona folks have seen more open carry that Virginia folks, and through that experience know that it is not implicitly a threat to their peace and safety.

That is what some folks in Virginia are trying to accomplish by openly carrying.

Then again, there are some other folks who have spent an inordinant amount of money tricking out their guns with fancy doodads and dressing them up in expensive leather holsters, and want everybody to see their "goodies".

Personally, I fall into the third camp - it's just so much easier to OC than to do everything necessary to CC. No need to worry about tucking or untucking, buying pants a size bigger, etc. It goes on the belt & I'm out the door. My experiences have been that most people don't notice it anyway. Those that do are more curious why Santa Claus is out & about before/after Christmas than why he is carrying. (OK, my disguise is revealed. Be nice or no presents for you.)

I don't want to convert you to OC if that's not your thing. I would appreciate it if you would stop fidgetting about it.

stay safe.

skidmark

Standing Wolf
January 29, 2008, 05:48 AM
People who are afraid to exercise their civil rights don't still have them.

Mainsail
January 29, 2008, 01:20 PM
Open carry has some advantages I havenít seen mentioned in this thread yet. I got my permit to carry concealed here in WA and noticed two things, I was always nervous about printing or revealing, and I was shopping for a tiny little peashooter for summer carry. Then I found out OC was legal in WA and began to carry that way. I carry my Sig 1911 comfortably on a belt holster. If itís cold the pistol is concealed by my jacket, if itís warm it is not. I donít have to worry when I stoop or reach, and if I enter a business like a restaurant or retail store, I can remove my jacket and not worry about being arrested for exposing my pistol.

The other advantage for me was that I became very knowledgeable about my other rights, especially my privacy rights. Privacy rights in WA are actually stricter than the US Constitution. A police officer cannot (legally) detain me for mere open carry. While there were some bumps in the road along the way, open carry is now recognized and (begrudgingly in some cases) accepted by LE. I have not yet experienced any panic or disdain from the general public, in fact, as a rule Iíve experienced either indifference or even enthusiasm instead.

hirundo82
January 29, 2008, 01:41 PM
I also see no reason to carry just because its a right. Just because its your right doesnt mean that you should (even though you could) blatantly make it clear to others.Is this the only right you feel we shouldn't exercise because it may offend someone? If not, I'm sure we would all love to hear which other rights you think we shouldn't exercise.

Smurfslayer
January 29, 2008, 02:16 PM
The only tecnically illegal act of open carrying in VA is anything fitting the requiremnts of 18.2-287.4 and ONLY if you DON'T have a permit.

Oh, and a full auto if you are carrying it for an aggressive purpose, but I digress... :neener:

The people who are predisposed to alarm are going to be alarmed IF THEY NOTICE whether you're carrying a gun or a 12 ounce can of coca cola. There is no brandishing, disturbing the peace, or common law breach of the peace by carrying a holstered handgun in VA. You *can* brandish without unholstering under certain conditions like moving your coat aside and accompanying the gesture with a threat, but again that's different from carrying for personal protection & excercising your right to bear arms.

I've lost count of the number of restaurants I've eaten at while open carrying. Yes, I've had trouble once, but it won't be repeated in that venue again. Can there be problems? Sure, just like any other demographic we have our good representatives and our bad ones. But my overwhelming experience has been restaurant managers and wait staff saying 'come back again'.

longwatch
January 29, 2008, 02:21 PM
I think the argument that if people open carry they will ban it, just isn't reflecting reality. The local prohibitions against the practice were preempted in 2004. Yet there is no hue and cry for a ban on OC.

Most people just don't care if you carry a gun or not here in NOVA or if they do they rarely do anything about it. At least in my experience. So I'll keep on open carrying, thank you.

Deacon Blues
January 29, 2008, 03:42 PM
Cutting to the chase, I'm concerned that groups of open carry folks might get a law put on the books rather than make people aware of the allowance.I suppose it all depends on how these groups of people behave. From what I know, VA has plenty of well-mannered, responsible people who choose to OC. Is the public really scared to death of them? If such was the climate in VA, I really don't think that the laws pertaining to OC or CC would be as they are today.

chris in va
January 30, 2008, 02:52 AM
Is the public really scared to death of them?

From the reactions I've seen out here, quite a few people are startled by it. I really wish they weren't.

Another dilemma. I bowl on a regular basis, and the alley of course serves beer. Now I could either leave the gun in the car, or OC and possibly get on the management's bad side. "There's kids in here. You don't need to be doing that." Or I could ask management if it's ok, but I already know the answer to that one.

I've lived out here for 2.5 years and not ONCE seen anyone OC or spotted a CC.

oda226
February 19, 2008, 01:35 PM
I am former LE and just got my CCW. (I've been out of the country for 15 years.)

I couldn't believe it when I was informed of the Resturant prohibition for CCW. This law is absurd and needs to be revoked!

I do not like to OC anywhere, but if I go to a local eatery that serves alcohol, I ask for a booth and sit with my weapon towards the wall and ask the waitress if the establishment serves alcohol. When she says yes, I take off my coat and OC but I remain discreet.

I keep my coat off until I pay my bill and then put my coat back on as I exit the establishment, but before I get up from the table. I don't want or need any attention from the owner or the local PD.

tinygnat219
February 19, 2008, 02:01 PM
Hmmm, discreet OC. How interesting.

Good on you for finding something that works!

oda226
February 19, 2008, 03:30 PM
Maybe we just discovered a new term: "Discrete OC"! LOL!.

The reason I do this is two-fold:1. I want to comply with all Virginia laws about CCW and 2. I do not want to draw obvious attention to myself from the bad guys, the good guys or from those that are on the political left.

There will be those that would say, "The moment you carry concealed in a restaurant you have violated the law." That would be true if an ABC license was clearly posted at the entrance, but how many restaurants post their ABC licenses at the front door? Not many.

I cannot confirm that the establishment has an ABC license until I ask a member of the staff. The moment he or she confirms the ABC status of the establishment, I immediately remove my coat (remember I sit weapon side to the wall) and now I am in "Discreet Open Carry".

Everytime I return to the place, once seated, I ask if the establishment still has an ABC License (ABC status CAN CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE IN VIRGINIA) and if the answer is in the affirmative, I immediately take off my coat and now I am in Discreet OC. Totally legal.

If I'm confronted as I'm walking towards the door with my coat on, I say that I've been openly carrying a weapon for the past X number of minutes/ hours and I put my coat on because I am leaving and it is cold/ raining/ too sunny outside. Again totally legal and more importantly: DEFENSIBLE IN COURT.

I think that it is absurd that good-honest citizens (and in my case former LE) have to find legal technicalities to be in a position to defend themselves in the gravest extreme and at the same time use these technicalities to NOT ALARM the SHEEPLE that may be in the same room with us! This law needs to be recinded! All Virginia CCW's get out and get politically active! Tell your State House Representative to vote to repaeal this law!

chris in va
February 20, 2008, 05:25 PM
Oda, they did 'modify' the law. If Gov Kaine approves, you can conceal but now have to notify management you're carrying.

Blackfork
February 20, 2008, 05:29 PM
..and folks who are willing to take a stand. We need open carry in Texas as well.

oda226
February 21, 2008, 08:23 AM
Chris,
I know that it has passed the State Congress, but I doubt that Caine will sign it into law. If he does, it is interesting to note that there are no criminal penalties for NOT notifying restaurant management...only for drinking in that establishment while carrying a weapon. (I think the penalties should be stricter and made a Class 1 Misdemeanor for carrying a weapon under the influence of any intoxicant).

So... if there are no criminal penalties for NOT declaring you are CCW, all the management of the establishment can do is ask you to leave, which I will gladly do.

longwatch
February 26, 2008, 12:18 AM
I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that there is no penalty for not informing. It may well be a class 1 misdemeanor, not abiding by the conditions of the permit nullifies it.

marshaul
February 26, 2008, 05:45 AM
Believe me, I'd *much* rather open carry freely such as in AZ than have to tuck this thing under a jacket or shirt. But as I see it, open carry is more for the times when your shirt rides up and exposes your handle than it is to make everyone's eyes pop out and start fidgeting.As someone who OCs every day, I can assure you that open carry is a great way to exercise your rights without having to submit to being licensed to do so. For me it is the norm.

I think what you might find most surprising is what a "normal" thing it can be. I've carried in malls, in movie theaters, I carry to the bank; I carry literally everywhere I go (unless I plan to drink alcohol :D). I even wore my gun while having a cavity filled a couple weeks back. People don't stare and fidget; if I get any reaction at all it's more along the lines of employees going out of their way to be helpful and people being extremely polite to me (of course I am always extremely friendly & polite myself when I am OCing). I've had many people ask me about my license--of course I have none--or the law in Virginia, and when I take the time to explain the way things are I invariably get a positive reaction. I have also had people approach to to tell me that they like my 1911, or that they support OC, or even just say "cool gun!" I've had numerous such positive encounters.

In fact, just the other day I went into a bar (nightclub?) where I had "left" my debit card two nights before, and since it was early on a Monday evening and the place was mostly empty I didn't bother to leave my gun in the car. As I stood at the bar waiting for the bartender to locate my forgotten card, a young lady approached me. I think our conversation went something like this:

"Hey, excuse me...."
"Yes?"
"Is that a gun?"
"....."
"That is so awesome. Can I see it?"
"I'm sorry miss, but I'm afraid I can't let you handle it. At least, not in public. You can look all you want, though." :D
"Oh, OK. Well, I just wanted to say how cool that is that you have a gun! Do you carry it everywhere?"

At which point I explained that, while I certainly hadn't carried that Saturday night when I left my card (due to the crowd and minor inebriation on my part), under normal circumstances I do carry everywhere--the biggest exceptions being musical performances and crowded bars, or if I plan to be drinking. As it happened, I was on my way to meet a lady friend of my own, so I didn't stay to continue the conversation once the bartender located my card and I had paid up. ;) But I think the story serves to illustrate that OC is not automatically going to generate negative attention, even in a place that serves alcohol. And as cheesy as the conversation may have been, in my own defense I can say I wasn't the one to initiate it. :p

Truth be told, I never bring up the fact that I'm carrying; others bring it up to make positive comments of their own volition. If anything, when I first started carrying, and I was still a bit nervous about what kind of reactions I would get, I was actually really encouraged by my fellow citizens, mostly by complete strangers. Suffice it to say that OCing reinforces my convictions on a daily basis.

With all that said, if you do OC to a place that serves alcohol (I would assume you would do so for the food), it's probably a good idea to sit at a table. :)

Oh, and I might as well say something about the "negative" reactions I've received. There have been two occasions (maybe three) where I've received a lingering "evil eye" (women each time). I, of course, merely smile and tip my hat.

Deanimator
February 26, 2008, 09:14 AM
As I recall, Virginia REQUIRES open carry in an establishment which serves liquor. That means if you CCW in Virginia, you don't get a choice whether you open carry in a restaurant with a liquor license. That of course doesn't stop cops from trying to entice people into violating the law by telling them to conceal their firearms in liquor dispensing establishments.

No matter WHAT you do, it's going to rub SOME anti-gun idiot the wrong way. Accept it.

WayneConrad
February 26, 2008, 09:32 AM
I'm starting to wonder if I'd generate less revulsion... with some gun rights activists... if I were to go down the street holding hands with a man and smooching than if I were to carry openly.

RE: Arizona being some kind of a special place for open carry. Open carry is not so common here, anymore, at least in the big city. Since CCW went into law, open carry has become not so common. If law enforcement is used to open carry, the people--many of them recently moved in from other states--certainly aren't. Still haven't had anyone faint, or hide their kids, or etc.

Had a few ask what caliber.

Those most prejudiced against me carrying openly seem to be my own side.

I'm wondering if what they're really wanting is for me to put on white face and straighten my hair before I go to town so I don't scare the town folk.

In the history of civil rights battles, is that a winning strategy?

Buttermilk
February 26, 2008, 01:47 PM
Do you like people who don't have any authority exerting control over you? Are you looking for a reason to cave in to their demands? Are you having trouble with a law that requires you to open carry? Why do officers wear guns? One reason is as a deterrent. Do you think BG's are just going to come charging at you and steal your gun? They are stupid but not that stupid. Does that make you a target? Or does it make you someone for BG's to avoid? Are you making a mountain out of a molehill? Are you looking for a reason not to open carry?
Just as with many other things in life, the more people see of something, the more they get used to it. So, use that right/privilige and help others to see that BG's don't like to be around people that are carrying and they will vacate an area that has people carrying and therefore people who are not carrying are safer around those who are. There will always be those who want to get there nose out of joint/be offended and all that is is someone trying to control you. Or, they are wanting to look down their nose at you and judge you. Don't let them run your life. I carry a 1911 all the time at about the 4 o'clock position in a Galco Summer Special holster that keeps the gun up real close and it is amazing how many people don't even know that I have it on. So, how and what you carry in may solve your problem. One of the ladies at work says it looks like my gun is peeking around from behind me. Maybe you would feel better if you address your problem that way.
Please don't stir up enough stink on a public forum that you create a problem for others and your state takes action and stops this right/privilige. Those of us who are trying to get open carry allowed in Texas want all the help we can get and not a recently passed law against open carry that someone can use as an example.
Thanks

chris in va
February 27, 2008, 03:46 AM
Please don't stir up enough stink on a public forum that you create a problem for others and your state takes action and stops this right/privilige

Hey, goosfrabah. Relax.

I know a few guys from the VCDL, shoot with them on occasion and have been to 'open carry' dinners a couple times (when I lived in N. VA).

It was a neutral question. Just worried that aspect of carry might gain more negative light than we intend. Apparently it's not the case, as evidenced by Marshaul. Maybe I'll get the nerve to OC again soon.

oda226
February 27, 2008, 09:11 AM
Longwatch,
I think that while your concerns are valid, this could be challenged in court and won. The proposed statute as is poorly written, ie: Who is the "designated" employee to declare CCW to? When must you declare that you are CCW?

I'm not advocating breaking the law. All I'm saying is that firstly, the current law is ludicrous and needs to be overturned. Hopefully the governor will sign the new statue into law.

Secondly, the requirement to "notify" is so poorly written that it could be used against legal CCW permit holders. Assuming you are correct about " not abiding by the conditions of the permit nullifies it", (we need to get a legal reading on this) a CCW holder who does not declare PRIOR to entry of the establishement could be prosecuted if his weapon was spotted by a member of law enforcement BEFORE he had the chance to declare that he was armed. As a former LEO, I can attest that there are those that are less benevolent than me and would gladly arrest an otherwise law abiding citizen.

These are some of the challenges I see here and I'm sure the Brady Bunch will attempt to exploit these weaknesses.

cassandrasdaddy
February 27, 2008, 10:07 AM
my only problem is with the minute group who do it for the "shock and awe". but i can't figure a way to legislate that jerks can't carry so i guess we gotta put up with em till they do something stupid enough to be actionable. i had a friend who fit in that category fortunatly i'll be in my 70's before he gets out

oda226
February 27, 2008, 12:05 PM
Cassandrasdaddy,
I personally, prefer to carry concealed for personal reasons, but we must support the rights of all gun owners to exersize their right to openly carry firearms if their state permits it. Fractionalizing gun owners into different camps is exactly what the Brady Bunch wants and anyone who supports 2A and RKBA cannot allow this to happen.

ODA226

mmike87
February 27, 2008, 12:17 PM
I'm for open carry when it's appropriate. It's not appropriate eveywhere. OC for the sole purpose of drawing attention is just silly and does no one any good.

Just as it's not appropriate to wear a T-Shirt and jeans to a funeral, it's not appropriate to open carry everywhere, either.

THAT SAID - Virginia FORCES me to open carry whenever I go out to eat. Or, leave my gun in the car which just is not going to happen.

mmike87
February 27, 2008, 12:22 PM
oda226 - what you say reminds me of how Ohio was originally with CCW. You could not open carry, but you could only open carry when in your car. It was impossible to transition to and from your vehicle without violating the law.

I struggled with this during two trips since I have family in Indiana right across the Ohio border, and I drove through there and went to various activities in Ohio while visiting.

The proposed VA restaurant law is WORSE than the current situtation of just open carrying, IMO. To comply, you'd have to open carry to walk in, notify someone (who is naturally going to be shocked) and then transition back to concealed after everyone has already seen your weapon (defeating the purpose of concealed carry in the first place.)

I could care less if that law passes - I'll still open carry in restaurants until they stop treating me like a second class citizen. This law is NOT a "step in the right direction" it's a PITA that is essentially useless.

oda226
February 27, 2008, 12:38 PM
I'm for open carry when it's appropriate. It's not appropriate eveywhere. OC for the sole purpose of drawing attention is just silly and does no one any good.

MMike87,
I absolutely agree with you on this, but disagree that the proposed restaurant law is worse than the current situation. I would much rather notify management that I'm CCW than to let EVERYONE SEE that I'm carrying a weapon.

mmike87
February 27, 2008, 12:46 PM
But if the designated person is the manager, what if you have to wait 10 minutes to see him or her? You're still going to stand out in the open, waiting, open carrying, for all to see.

Plus, this makes it EASIER for the manager to say "NO". Managers are less likely to approach you on their own and say "get out with that gun" then they are to say "No, I'd rather you not have that in here" when you have to explicitly as for permission.

No, this law is so impractical that it's a win for the anti-gun folks. It's akin to being treated like a sex offender - you have to "check in" whereever you go.

Plus - do you have to check in every time? Can the manager say "yes" once and you're covered forever? If so, are they required to keep records of their approval? Are you? What if the designated person is your server, and they change shifts while you're eating? Now there is no one there whom you received approval from? Are they going to arrest me now - I suddenly became a criminal because my server or the assistant manager went home at the end of their shift?

oda226
February 27, 2008, 01:04 PM
MMike87,
We ARE on the same sheet of music afterall! :neener: These were my initial concerns also, but after reading the (poorly) written rider to this law, it NOWHERE states that a CCW MUST enter the establishment in OC, nor does it state that you must go OC at any time.

I think we should take this conversation off-line because I know there must be anti's here that would love to point out the holes in this bill and kill it. This won't serve anyone here justice. Drop me a PM!

226

Smurfslayer
February 28, 2008, 08:03 AM
I'd like to shuffle this offline as well. There's already been a couple of less than truthful assertions put forth about the effect of the bill's language. It's definitely not worse than what we have now.

sohmc
March 17, 2008, 04:15 PM
marshaul: I think what you might find most surprising is what a "normal" thing it can be. I've carried in malls, in movie theaters, I carry to the bank; I carry literally everywhere I go.

I think this is a wording thing. I'd love to open-carry in a mall; Tyson's Corner (in VA) does not allow guns unless your a police officer.

I kind think a mall is a public place, even though it's private property.

Does anyone have any references to this?

Thanks!

mmike87
March 17, 2008, 08:51 PM
Tyson's Corner does not allow guns?

I carry anywhere that it is not AGAINST THE LAW to carry.

Tyson's Corner is not on the list.

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