[Combat-wombat]

C'mon people, this anti-French stuff has gone too far. It is disgusting to me how we hate France and make the French out to be weak ninnies. So, they have different political views. We don't have to hate a group of people for their political views! Haven't we seen intolerance before? Prehaps with gay-bashing? What about anti-Semitism? This is the same! Come on, let's stop this silly French-hating thing and learn to respect people, even if we don't agree with them. Sheesh!

[Wildalaska]

Bet the Brits are real happy with the French as they desecrate British war graves again..

WildouiouiAlaska

[Mike Irwin]

Uh, what brought this on?

As far as I can tell, there hasn't been a lot of French bashing going on for quite some time.

The biggest problem with the French that I see is their lack of memory, and their constant desire to see the United States as the new enemy.

As for respect, it's a two way street. You have to earn it to get it. The French haven't earned it, in my estimation.

:cuss: the French.

[PATH]

What Mike said!

[Combat-wombat]

What brought this on was I saw yet another anti-French t-shirt, and I've thought we should leave the French alone for a long time.

[Mike Irwin]

Define "letting alone."

The French have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they're nationally unreliable, ungrateful, and absolutely unrepentant about that fact.

French international relations over the past 50 years have largely been reactionary -- find out what the US is doing, and react against it. Doesn't matter if it's good, bad, or indifferent, it's pretty much a given that the French will decry it.

Yes, the French have the right to act as a national entity. But you'd think that they would occasionally find it to be in their best interests internationally to act in concert, instead of continually in opposition. The French had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the first Persian Gulf War, and for nearly 13 years did everything that they could to get international sanctions against Iraq lifted, even when the Iraqis were far out of compliance.

I believe it was Chiraq who, a few months ago, made it very clear that he viewed France's role in the European Union as a mission of forging a bloc against the United States, which was quickly followed by his admonition to the Baltic states that they should "just shut up" if they supported US actions in Iraq.

The only thing I can figure is that France's problem is largely a national sense of penis envy towards the US. France hasn't been a serious player on the international scene since Napoleon made his final bid for world domination.

Since then virtually everything they've laid their hand at internationally has gone badly.

I've been to France a number of times, and have traveled fairly extensively.

Beautiful nation, and I've met some lovely people there, but I've also met some real :cuss:holes, too. In fairness, I can say that about every nation I've been to, with the exception of Switzerland.

As far as I'm concerned, the French have brought it on themselves. Why should anyone be surprised when they catch grief?

[rrader]

Re: France: what can you say about an industrial nation that can't produce a decent motorcycle. France: A nation of men who throw like a girl and women with hairy armpits.

[agricola]

Uh, what brought this on?

As far as I can tell, there hasn't been a lot of French bashing going on for quite some time.


true enough, this has been brit-bashing season.

One should point out that people do seem to forget that you owe them for your very existence.

[Orthonym]

Actually, I think it was Louis XVI's cynical power-politicking to help us, and the extra taxes he extorted therefor, which were the precipitating proximate causes of the French Revolution.

[Orthonym]

The French gave us one thing unheard of in English-speaking countries until about 1830 - POLICEMEN !:fire:

[Thumper]

One should point out that people do seem to forget that you owe them for your very existence.

Was that a self-deprecating attempt at irony, Ag?

Sie macht Deutsch sprechen??

[Thumper]

Oh...almost forgot...

:cuss: the french.

[Khornet]

Seems to me I've been hearing for some time how America is imperialist, how our president = Hitler, how we torture innocents in Guantanmo, etc. Yanqui go home is now an old, old expression. There are people who make careers of hating McDonald's. Europe thinks we're all murderers. Canadian government officials call us bastards. I could go on all day....

So get over it. Either learn to take it yourself, or stop dishing it out.

[fallingblock]

Even if it might have taken longer without the French.:D

Besides, perverse as the French are...they only helped the U.S. because they hated the Brits so much;)

[HankB]

It is disgusting to me how we hate France and make the French out to be weak ninnies.Well, it's not like they're exactly a tough people, now, is it? So, they have different political views. We don't have to hate a group of people for their political views!It's not exactly hate . . . it's more like contempt and disgust. Haven't we seen intolerance before? Prehaps with gay-bashing? What about anti-Semitism?Nobody has advocated beating up any Frenchmen they encounter. (What fun is there in beating up someone who runs at the sound of German music? ;) )And as for anti-Semitism, it's seen a sharp increase lately . . . in France This is the same! Come on, let's stop this silly French-hating thing and learn to respect people, even if we don't agree with them. Sheesh!Respect has to be earned. Just about the ONLY modern French who have earned respect are those who were ACTIVE in the WWII French Resistance prior to the D-Day invasions. And there are fewer every day. (An awful lot of the frogs joined "The Resistance" only after they saw the landings were successful.)

Good news: American tourism in France is down at least 30% - that's what they admit to officially - and French wine imports to the US are down by more than half. As Yanks discover California, Australia, and other wines, the reduced sales in French wines will probably persist for a long time. This has got to be hurting them. :D

[seeker_two]

It is disgusting to me how we hate France and make the French out to be weak ninnies.

The truth is sometimes not pleasant...:rolleyes:

The biggest problem with the French that I see is their lack of memory, and their constant desire to see the United States as the new enemy

And they got their wish, didn't they? :cuss:

As far as I can tell, there hasn't been a lot of French bashing going on for quite some time.

And THAT is an outrage! Something should be done...

French Leaders Abandon Paris, May Grovel For Help (http://www.satiresearch.com/go.asp?sid=22501)

Germany Invades France, Weapons of Mass Deodorant Fired (http://www.satiresearch.com/go.asp?sid=22501)

:cuss: the Frenchies...

[bogie]

A few weeks ago, I was in a gas station restroom, and I looked up, and HAD to buy a...

...Freedom Tickler.

This is just STRANGE!

[Carlos Cabeza]

YOU WANT THE TRUTH,.............YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH !!!!!!

It is the truth that causes so much pain.

[Drjones]

Combat:

If you wanna make friends with someone who stabbed you in the back, as well as your dead relatives who died fighting for said back-stabber, you go right ahead.

Its that simple.

[Mike Irwin]

"One should point out that people do seem to forget that you owe them for your very existence."

There's a big difference between the US and the French in that regard, Agricola.

We remember the French contributions to American idependence, celebrate it, and are GRATEFUL for it.

The French, though?

Four times in the 20th century the United States came to France's aid with military and economic aid, and the response every time has been the equivilent of ":cuss: you, America, :cuss: you, Americans!"

[rrader]

Agricola:

true enough, this has been brit-bashing season.

Some cheese with that whine? <BG>

One should point out that people do seem to forget that you owe them for your very existence

No, all the French did in blockading the mouth of the Chesapeake was save Cornwallis the effort at a Dunkirk-style evac under fire. He would have lost all of his cannon, powder, and around 1/3-1/2 of his men even if the Royal Navy had been able to get through.

Washington had Cornwallis surrounded (on the land side) and outnumbered 2:1 at Yorktown. Without the French Conwallis would merely have suffered a massive defeat instead of a Singapore-style surrender.

The French shortened the war by a year or so. Nothing more. What little help they offered was appreciated up to the post WWII era. The France of the late 1700's isn't the France of today.

Your theory that the USA owes it existence to the French in the same way that the UK owes it existence as an independent, English-speaking nation to us Americans is inaccurate.

[Deepdiver]

As far as I can tell, there hasn't been a lot of French bashing going on for quite some time.

then we have obiviously fallen down on the job.....

By all means, Let The French Bashing Begin!!!

[OF]

...learn to respect people, even if we don't agree with them.Uhhh, no thanks. You have to earn my respect. And while I will not condemn an individual for his nationality, I will condemn a culture for its values.

- Gabe

[Duncan Idaho]

What brought this on was I saw yet another anti-French t-shirt, and I've thought we should leave the French alone for a long time. If it makes ooh feewl any bettooh, I plan to leave all of the E.U. trash alone for the rest of my life.

Let them rot in their own filth for all I care.

Hey Pierre! How does having 80% of your tourist dollars dry up feel?


Ptuii...:fire: If you wanna make friends with someone who stabbed you in the back, as well as your dead relatives who died fighting for said back-stabber, you go right ahead.Game then we have obiviously fallen down on the job.....By all means, Let The French Bashing Begin!!!Set Uhhh, no thanks. You have to earn my respect. And while I will not condemn an individual for his nationality, I will condemn a culture for its values.Match



AKA

Americains 1 Francais 0

[Drjones]

You know, its really funny that this thread was started by an anti-french t-shirt...I was just looking at them yesterday and thinking I need to get one (as well as some of Oleg's shirts!!!) for the upcoming school year so that I may more easily piss off the liberals on campus!!!

:D :D :D

What did the shirt say? I like the ones from protestwarrior.com that say "Hey FRANCE: YOU shut the hell up! WE'LL protect civilization!"

And I saw one that had a french flag and said on top of the flag: "I HATE FRANCE."

I actually love France; it is a gorgeous country, and Paris is probably the most beautiful city in the world.

Its the french PEOPLE I hate... Any shirts that say "I HATE THE FRENCH"?

[Mike Irwin]

Rader,

Sorry, I disagree with your assessment of the effect of the French on America's quest for independence.

The French WERE instrumental in the US winning recognition from Britain -- they didn't simply shorten the war by a year or two, they preserved the ability of the United States to make war at all, most importantly by providing credit and, perhaps even more importantly, firearms and powder.

"No, all the French did in blockading the mouth of the Chesapeake was save Cornwallis the effort at a Dunkirk-style evac under fire. He would have lost all of his cannon, powder, and around 1/3-1/2 of his men even if the Royal Navy had been able to get through."

I'm not certain why you think this, but it's incorrect. Had the French not been at Yorktown, their artillery wouldn't have been, either. About 80 percent of the artillery at Yorktown had been provided by the French, having landed in Rhode Island in 1780. And that was just light artillery, the kind with which you can't make an effective siege.

Here's the REALLY important factor in this scenario, however.

Cornwallis went into Yorktown in September. The Battle of the Capes, which kept the British fleet from rescuing Cornwallis, happened in the first few days of September, September 5-10, BEFORE Washington's troops were even remotely in place. Up until the last few weeks of September, only a few thousand American troops, at best, opposed Cornwallis' nearly 10,000 men in Yorktown.

Had the British punched through the French fleet, Corwallis and his men and supplies would have been out of Virginia LONG before the combined American/French army got there in numbers.

In fact, it was nearly 3 weeks after the Battle of the Virginia Capes that the combined Army arrived in any numbers until, at last, on September 26, the American and French have a force that outnumbered Cornwallis.

What they still didn't have, however, was any means of pursuing the siege -- in other words, heavy artillery.

In order to do that, heavy siege guns had to be landed from the French fleet and carted overland to positions outside of Corwallis fortifications. If the British had defeated the French fleet, though, those siege guns wouldn't have been available, and breaking through the Yorktown fortifications would have been virtually impossible.

No serious artillery bombardment of British positions began until the afternoon of October 9, now nearly a MONTH after Cornwallis took up residency in the area.

So you see, the activity of the French fleet in the Battle of the Capes was absolutely CRITICAL in pinning Cornwallis into an ultimately indefensible position.

Without the French fleet as the anvil, there was no expectation that Cornwallis would even still be in Yorktown, which is the biggest reason why it took three weeks for Washington to gather the combined army to lay the siege in the first place.


As for Cornwallis losing his cannon, shot, and powder, again, I'm not sure why you think this.

The Royal Navy had proven itself, time and time again, caple of moving large amounts of heavy artillery either to or from shipboard very quickly, and as you can see from the information above, the British would have had weeks in which to move their supplies with little to no serious opposition from the American army.

Given the types of ships that were headed to Yorktown, and the rather limited amount of artillery that Corwallis had, it's unlikely that he would have lost much of his artillery at all.

As well, by this time, British armies in America had quite a bit of experience in moving artillery by sea in numerous hops around the Eastern seaboard.

[KMKeller]

One should point out that people do seem to forget that you owe them for your very existence.


And here I thought that we owed that to the greed and treachery of the British monarchy...

Silly me.

[Mike Irwin]

Yes, silly you, Kirk.

It could be as easily said, and very effectively argued, that American independence is due to AMERICAN greed and treachery as much as it was due to British greed and treachery.

[KMKeller]

Mike - True, us wanting to keep what was ours and all...

[Mike Irwin]

"Paris is probably the most beautiful city in the world."

Christ no. Paris is pretty from a distance, but filthy, ugly, and disgusting up close.

I can think of a dozen other cities that are more beautiful than Paris, among them Luzern, Switzerland, Quebec, Canada, and Salzburg, Austria.

In fact, if I had to live anywhere outside of North America, it would be Salzburg.

[Mike Irwin]

"Wanting to keep what was ours and all..."

What, you mean as British subjects? After all, America had been settled by the British, as British colonies, protected by British troops and the British navy.

Funny how "our" (I guess you mean American Americans) sense of keeping what was "ours" is so much nobeler than the British keeping what was theirs. After all, at the time we were they, they were us, and we were the same.

So yes, I guess in that sense, the British were nothing more than horrific colonial bastards, keeping good Americans (or were they British?) from keeping what was theirs (or was it ours?).

Or do you mean the crushing burnden of taxes, which were, incidentally, roughly 1/4 to 1/3rd of those that were paid by an individual of the same status in Britain?

Skip it, Kirk. Under that thin veneer of noble and righteous indignation, the Founders, in many ways, simply weren't all that very much different from their kith and kin in Britain.

The causes of the American Revolution, and the quest for independence, at least those that we were taught in school, largely fantasies and half-truths generated after the fact by the winning side.

The real truth, however, is a lot more interesting, a lot more convoluted, and in many, many ways, a LOT more sinister.

[BigG]

Well, not exactly everything. I seem to remember a couple years ago they sunk that Greenpeace boat down in Polynesia... Rainbow warrior or sompin like dat... :evil:

You can look it up: Rainbow Warrior Sunk! (http://www.aucklandcitypolice.govt.nz/History/warrior.htm) :neener:

[KMKeller]

Good points all Mike..

Rats, hosed by public education again!

(My previous posts were made very tongue in cheek)

[Mike Irwin]

Uhm...

I had a public education too, Kirk.

[agricola]

mike,

and a damn fine one it seems to have been.

[Combat-wombat]

I see. You all have made good arguments. I understand now why we don't like the French. Still, that "freedom fries" and "freedom toast" stuff is a little too much.

[Mike Irwin]

Yeah, I do in some ways agree that Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast are just a little too far out there, but you have to admit, Freedom Tickler is just FUNNY! :D

[10-Ring]

I haven't said anything negative about the French in a while. Not even after major combat was declared over & they wanted to play a big role in the rebuilding of Iraq.
I can disagree w/ anyone I choose & I can choose the people/companies/countries I want to do business with.

[Waitone]

BTW, the French government says US tourism is down 30%. US travel agents say US tourism is down 80%.

In other posts I've drawn a distinction between normal French and those who live in Paris or work for the French government. I've got no problem with real French citizens. They remember and remember well what the US and its allies did in WWII. Parisians have a different attitude. The French government gnomes are out orbiting their own planets.

I'll not bash real French. I will engage in good humor poking at Parisians and gnomes simply because it is fun and there is no challenge to it. Sorta like clubbing baby seals.

[Jeff Timm]

What brought this on was I saw yet another anti-French t-shirt, and I've thought we should leave the French alone for a long time. Said Combat Wombat.

I wish I could remember what magazine I saw that cartoon in...the Combat Wombat was a fictional Australian Fighter of WWII vintage.

But, we are leaving the French alone. Many US Citizens aren't going to France ever again.

Geoff
Who was in France...once....too many times.

[KMKeller]

Dang Mike! Kicking me around in public. And here I thought you were my friend.:(

Oh and Ag, not a single thing Mike has said in any way shape or form supports your theory that I owe the brits my existence. I'm still waiting for the proof of that one.

[Alan Smithiee]

Mike, you had better be carefull telling the truth like that! someone may not like it! might accuse you of being a Revisonist!!!

as for the French, well, I have my own reasons for hating them, but a friend asked me not to long ago "why does everyone hate the french" (he was refering to all around the world), my reply: "there French, isin't that enough?"

and yes, no fan of Greenpeace I, but bombing there boat.. who's next? doesn't that act make them a terrorist govt?

"As Yanks discover California, Australia, and other wines, the reduced sales in French wines will probably persist for a long time. This has got to be hurting them.

"might I also point out that Washington and North Idaho have some VERY nice vineyards as well. (Yes, Idaho Wines.. quite good, and Camas Honey Mead is exellent!)

http://www.camaswinery.com/

(honey meads are wonderfull presents for honeymoons, shiped in a nice small wooden crate, custom labels avalable)

[Phyphor]

..but bombing that Greenpeace boat *IS* an act of terrorism, for all practical purposes.

Why do I say that, you might ask?

1 - The boat wasn't even in French territory when it was bombed and scuttled.

2 - The method of destruction used against the boat was one in which the victims on board had no warning, so they didn't have too much of a chance to escape. It would have been better if they could have forced the GP'ers off the boat, THEN scuttled it.

3 - The sudden series of denials/admissions/resignations tends to point to them knowing that they knowingly instigated this.


Hell, if the GPers were a real threat like Al Qiada(sp?), I'd be all for blowing them up in such a manner, but being a bunch of aggravating tree-hugging hippies isn't a crime....

[HBK]

I think the fact that the US saved the collective ??? of Europe twice in one century justifies any indignation toward the French and British for not being supportive or for being anti american. WWI made us even, WWII means they owe us. The British are a damn, fine people, they just have a ridiculous legal system/gun laws. The French are a cowardly lot, not trustworthy to take out the garbage,

[Mike Irwin]

I AM your friend, Kirk.

Friends don't let friends get too far on the dark side of reason...

As for us owing our very existence to the British, well, that one needs some more input from Agricola before it can be rationally discussed. There are MANY meanings that could be ascribed to that statement.


The more I study the causes and effects of the Revolutionary War, the more I realize that while yes, there were legitimate grievances, and the British on many occasions did the Charlie Foxtrot shuffle in handling colonial affairs, much of what was used as justification for the separation was, largely, propaganda and loudly trumped up propaganda, at that.

[kentucky bucky]

:cuss: France. Thanks for starting this thread and reminding me how bad I loathe the modern French. What a bunch of ungrateful :cuss: The only good news I've seen come out of France lately, is that some in their travel industry say that American tourism is down by as much as 80%:D Even their lying government says 30%:D


HEY, parlez vous this:neener:

[Iain]

vast generalisations about an entire nation -

how about these?
Americans are all overweight
Americans are all stupid
Americans all want to be on Jerry Springer.

Not nice huh? To call an entire nation cowardly because they didn't support our war in Iraq?

Don't want to appear belligerent, but these generalisations are a little silly.

[grampster]

Yeah, and don't forget, St. Johns, "Most Americans are armed!"

We may be fat, stupid and want to be on tv with a baaad talkin, big boobed skanky slut, but we are absolutely dangerous to screw around with.

grampster:D

[Iain]

you made me laugh :D

[Bruce H]

With the likes of Shumer, Feinstein, Daschle, Kennedy, and a multitude of others of the same ilk I really don't have time to worry about foreign countries. When they become a threat to our lifestyle that the afore mentioned ones are I'll worry and bash.

[clem]

France is a enemy of my country, America. They, France, made their bed...now they can sleep in it!
:cuss: France!

[Duncan Idaho]

To call an entire nation cowardly because they didn't support our war in Iraq?One word...Vichy

[KMKeller]

Mike - So you're saying that I should fire up BOTH brain cells?!?

[Mike Irwin]

"vast generalisations about an entire nation"

French actions over the past 50 years speak for themselves, St. John.

The recent actions of the French government, as the face of its people, proved that the actions of the previous 50 years are by no means isolated incidents, or even out of national character.

When talking about a nation's actions/character, a nation comprising some 60 million people, generalizations are the norm, not the exception.

Not every statement is going to fit every individual. But the statements themselves are truer than they are false.

[Mal H]

Let me get this straight ... Combat-wombat saw an anti-French t-shirt somewhere, not on THR I assume, and now we have a 3 page thread almost entirely made up of French bashing?

Looks like a plan that went 180° out of kilter.

Don't look at me like that, Mike! I'm not closing it. Sure sounds like a Legal and Political topic to me.

[Mike Irwin]

:scrutiny:

A'hm watchin yew, Moderator Man!

[Mal H]

Ah doan live heah, Ah'm jes visitin'. Doan be souprized if the ownah retuns and kicks ya'll out though.

[Mike Irwin]

"Mike - So you're saying that I should fire up BOTH brain cells?!?"

No, there's no need to go and do something crazy...

[Mike Irwin]

Can't see why...

This is actually a pretty good thread regarding the issues surrounding much of our dissatisfaction with France, but also recognizing some of the French actions that have been admirable.

[10-Ring]

The French gov't never acknowledged how wrong they were even after major combat was over, they were just after regaining their economic status...:rolleyes:

[HankB]

Washington and North Idaho have some VERY nice vineyards Ahh, yes, I'll have to go and pick up a bottle of famous Spud Wine, with the convenient resealable screw-on cap. :neener:

[Oleg Volk]

Doan be souprized if the ownah retuns and kicks ya'll out though.

Rethorical question: how does inessantly talking about French national faults further civil liberties, including gun ownership rights? Further, commentary about amount of armpit hair isn't even on the topic of specifically French political or historic events...it is plain irrelevant and rude in the bargain.

Oleg Volk