[Harpo]

First of all, I'm very impressed with Mr. Miculek's accomplishments, and really appreciate his contributions in keeping revolvers alive and well.

I recently read (in an unverified source) that Mr. Miculek uses a rather light load: 148gr WC over 2.7gr Bullseye. By my reckoning, this would result in about 700fps, and be almost without recoil in a 43oz 625 S&W. It's even lighter than the cowboy loads in my manuals...

Can anyone verify what loads McGivern and Miculek use?

Harpo

[MCgunner]

MY GOD, he uses MY handload? Why can't I shoot like that???? Uh, well, never mind......:rolleyes:

[crebralfix]

I'm checking McGivern's book...just a sec.

--------------

Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting

1) p435: McGivern remarks that he had no contract with any maker. He purchased products off the shelf and tested them. He did experiments for a particular purpose and would present his findings accordingly.

2) p437-438: No very light triggers on guns where a shooter is performing for a crowd. Triggers for guns used in aerial shooting should hold the weight of the gun. Increasing the weight of the trigger pull is not detrimental to the shooter's performance! McGivern recommended full weight standard factory adjusted triggers for fast work of any sort.

3) p438:

Before 1914: mid-range 38 Special loads "with heavier bullets and better loads of powder" using wad cutter bullets.

Context: McGivern mentions "mid-range", "short range" and "gallery" loads. "Gallery loads" are mentioned in the National Firearms Museum. They were used at those mechanical shooting galleries. Apparently, they're very light loads shooting fragmenting bullets. "Short range" and "mid-range" loads are undefined.

Around 1915: Worked with several companies for "mid-range blunt-end and square shoulder hollow base bullets for 38 Special cartridges".

Page 439 shows several cartridges. Included are 148 grain bullet that he helped develop. Included in the list are several full power cartridges.

Page 442 describes using a 158 grain bullet "with a full load of powder behind it" for 50 yard target shooting. It was used in many tests and performances (fanning, two gun tests against time, etc) in order to reduce ""chatter" relative to using "sub" or reduced loads, and similar former criticism."

He recommends either a mid range or full load for general revolver shooting "and particularly for fast and fancy exhibition shooting, where the spectators have a desire to see the bullet holes on the targets or else watch something "bust" with a decided smack."

NOTE: apparently, he designed and constructed the first reloading machine for 38 Special cartridges. He gave it to the Ideal Manufacturing Company in 1919 (page 441).

In summary, it appears that McGivern was sensitive to any criticism regarding the power of his loads. He goes on at length regarding the cartridges he used.

[rcmodel]

I'm almost certain he isn't using 148/2.7 .38 Spl. wad-cutter target loads in his .45 ACP 625 revolver.

I believe he did use wad-cutter .38 Spl. in the Model 64's he used to set the 60 round in 17.12 speed record.
That is the same load McGivern used.

When he shoots for speed with a reload, he uses the 625 .45ACP with RN ball ammo in moon clips.
No way he can shoot 6, reload, and shoot 6 more in 2.99 seconds with wad-cutters!

http://www.jerrymiculek.com/titles.html

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[crebralfix]

Additionally:

P157: Picture of a target showing a 2/5 of a second 5 shot group dated Jan 23, 1934. On it:

Smith + Wesson gun #640792
Peters Cartridges 38 spl.
Full loads 158 grain wad cutter bullets

That should clarify any ambiguities from my previous post.

Also note that McGivern used guns with longer barrels. Page 155 shows a revolver he used to shoot 5 shots in 2/5 second with what looks like a six inch or possibly 7.5 inch barrel.

[Round Gun Shooter]

I don't know if it has taken place yet but I talked to Jerry and to Roy Jinks a couple years ago at S&W. Jerry was going to make the attempt with McGivern's gun but was waiting for PACT to make him a special timer.

It will be the closest he can get to the actual conditions of the McGivern records.

I have seen Jerry shoot, what he does is simply amazing. Some of his records were set with factory Mag Tech ammo. No special reloads. The multi gun record was set with the Mag tech.

[Harpo]

Many thanks to all for the info - I've ordered the McGivern book. Nice to hear that he did use full power loads in most circumstances.

[crebralfix]

Harpo,

Just be aware that the writing style is very, very old and can be difficult to read. You will need to dig through the text to find various procedures. Read the entire book, enjoy it, and put Post-Its where you find procedures on shooting.

After that, type it all out into a computer so it's in one spot. You'll find this book to be very, very good when used at the range.