Can someone give me the data for a 50gr Vmax in 223 for Varget and RL7


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John4me05
February 2, 2008, 06:16 PM
Dont have it in my manual

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R.W.Dale
February 2, 2008, 07:04 PM
Varget is going to be a poor performer velocity wise with bullets lighter than 55grns. The max load of 27.5grs for a 55g sp is literally a good deal MORE varget than a winchester case can hold, so basically you'll be loading 50grn bullets to 55grn velocities.

That being said Hodgon's online reloading center has quickly all but replaced my load manuals for Hodgon powders.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

John4me05
February 2, 2008, 07:14 PM
Yeah but Varget works great for me... Not worried about velocities but accuracy...
There is no listing for the 50 Vmax on Hodgdon... Not for 223.. I checked there before i posted

R.W.Dale
February 2, 2008, 07:31 PM
There is for the 50grn Speer sp, That's why we start low and work up

John4me05
February 2, 2008, 08:04 PM
Yeah but.......
I am still a rook... I dont feel safe using load data for another tip yet... I just need to top and bottom powder charge... Ill work the gaps between my tests out from there

crux
February 3, 2008, 12:10 AM
Following Sierra AR data: 20.2 to 23gr Of Reloder-7 with a Rem 7.5 primer. I use Rx-7 with 55 bullets and 52gr SMKs with excellent results. Sierra's accuracy load for 55gr bullets is 21.5gr (Max book load) and it works extremely well with a wide range of 52 - 55gr bullets.

No help with Varget, you can't reasonably get enough in the case. If you must, use data for heavier bullets to start with.

R.W.Dale
February 3, 2008, 12:13 AM
I dont feel safe using load data for another tip yet.

Yet you DO feel safe using data(not listed in your books)that some complete stranger on the interweb just GAVE you?

redneck2
February 3, 2008, 05:34 AM
I use 26.0 Varget with 50 gr Nosler BT's. Mag length, WW cases and Fed Match Primers. These groups are at 268 yards lasered.

http://141.photobucket.com/albums/e283/Indianaoutdoorsman/Gunpix-1.jpg
Not trying to be hard on you personally, but I don't understand why you just don't go to the Hodgden website. I just went there. They've got a crap loads of listings. Several hundred for .223. Seems like every week we get 2-3 threads "I need a load and don't have a manual".

Get the free pamphlets where you get your powder. You need written stuff at your bench, not something you remember off the error-net. I make 3x5 index cards with everything written on them and leave them out when I'm loading.

KFDiesel
February 3, 2008, 07:48 AM
http://forums.handloads.com/
This site seems to be an OK starting point for working up loads if you cant seem to find anything else.

John4me05
February 3, 2008, 08:44 AM
Yet you DO feel safe using data(not listed in your books)that some complete stranger on the interweb just GAVE you?
Yes... I figure someone would just glance in their manual and say
Varget bottom is 23 top is 27.5 (or whatever it is)
RL7 is 16 and 19.5

Excuse me for not having the most up to date stuff...

John4me05
February 3, 2008, 08:50 AM
Not trying to be hard on you personally, but I don't understand why you just don't go to the Hodgden website. I just went there. They've got a crap loads of listings. Several hundred for .223. Seems like every week we get 2-3 threads "I need a load and don't have a manual".

Get the free pamphlets where you get your powder. You need written stuff at your bench, not something you remember off the error-net. I make 3x5 index cards with everything written on them and leave them out when I'm loading.


Yes Hodgdon has loads of listings for .223... But can you show me a 50grn Vmax listing in .223.... I sure must have missed it....
I add the load data i get elsewhere into my books and my binder... Its not something i remember... But i dont go trying to get load data for every posssible tip out there... Just the one i need that my 2 manuals dont have cause they are older... I am trying to be as macho and great and holy and upstanding and have as much reloading equipment and 500 manuals at my disposal that just came out each year and have progressive presses that open new boxes of bullets and automatically fills the tubes and adds new primers on its own an all... But i dont have it... I cant get it locally.. And i dont know what manual to order that will cover every powder and every tip for every gun... I would ask that but i might look stupid

John4me05
February 3, 2008, 08:51 AM
http://forums.handloads.com/
This site seems to be an OK starting point for working up loads if you cant seem to find anything else.
I was there before i was here.... Alot of good guys over there

R.W.Dale
February 3, 2008, 11:12 AM
Unless you're matching exactly the primer and case used in the manuals you've already stepped outside the bounds. I have reloading manuals that don't even bother to list the bullet used. In my opinion you will get into trouble faster using case of a different make than you will bullets.

I worry about matching PRIMER, POWDER and BRASS not so much jacketed bullets.

YodaVader
February 3, 2008, 11:23 AM
There is no listing for the 50 Vmax on Hodgdon... Not for 223

I have a 6th Edition Hornady manual and for the 50 grain bullets in the .223 they do not have a load listed using Varget or RL-7 either.

John4me05
February 3, 2008, 11:39 AM
Unless you're matching exactly the primer and case used in the manuals you've already stepped outside the bounds. I have reloading manuals that don't even bother to list the bullet used. In my opinion you will get into trouble faster using case of a different make than you will bullets.

I worry about matching PRIMER, POWDER and BRASS not so much jacketed bullets.

Yes and no.. Primers are primers right... Yes i know pistol and small and large and magnum and such but a basic primer is a basic primer

Ok now i was shooting 40gr Vmaxs in the 223.. Got a box of 52 Amax... Figured OK heavier bullet atleast the same powder charge... Ehhhhhh wrong answer... My middle weight of powder charge for the 40 was OVER max charge for the 52... So what happens if say they call for 50gr Sierra ballistic tips to use 28.5 grains min charge of Varget and the Max charge for the 50 Vmax is 25.5 or so... Hmmm 3 grains over charge.. Thats safe right... Now i could understand if i used a magnum primer where it called for a regular primer... But a small rifle primer is a small rifle primer... They will build basically the same pressure and speed wether it be a CCI or Win or whomever else is used... It wont create a unsafe condition...

I dunno... I guess i am a dumb ass for even wanting to be remotely safe at something i dont really know alot about... Yeah i know to make rounds and build test loads and track down accuracy.. But i dont know safe deviation cause i never have tried or even asked a question such as "How many grains over Max listed can i go".. Min and Max to me are there for a reason.. Dont go over or under...

R.W.Dale
February 3, 2008, 01:17 PM
Ok now i was shooting 40gr Vmaxs in the 223.. Got a box of 52 Amax... Figured OK heavier bullet atleast the same powder charge... Ehhhhhh wrong answer...

Well you probelm was you went the wrong direction. heavier bullets always use a LIGHTER charge vs lightweight bullets.

A charge listed for a 52 grn bullet under a 40grn bullet would be slow but OK. But vise versa is a serious NO NO. When no data is avalible the manual usually tells you to use data for the next heavier bullet for this reason.

Yes and no.. Primers are primers right...

NO diffrent brand primers can vary WILDLY in their bruisance (power) causing dramatic changes in chamber pressure.

Somewhere if I can find it is a set of pictures taken in a dark room showing the difference in flame produced when various brands of primers are set off.

John4me05
February 3, 2008, 03:50 PM
Again... It prooves i am a rook at this and aint just gonna go by another bullets reccomendation...

I figured a heavier bullet needed atleast as much powder...

Ol` Joe
February 3, 2008, 07:45 PM
Again... It prooves i am a rook at this and aint just gonna go by another bullets reccomendation...

Something you have to concider is if the Hornady book gave a recommendation for a powder charge of either powder and the 50 gr V-Max bullet it would be no more cut and dried then the data from Speer, Nosler or anyother book as to the maximum allowed. The data in all the bullet manufactures manuals is capped at the charge that gave max pressure with any of the bullets tested at that wgt. Hornady lists 3 different style 50 gr bullets in their data, which is the max valid for?
The "start low and work up" instruction is due to the fact there are variations in more then just the bullet, although it is a major one. The lot of powder, primer and case brand used can make a big difference in the result of your load. The books reflect this when you compare the velocities they list for similar loads and where their loads max out.
If data is available for the bullet you want to use in the makers manual, use it! If the data isn`t available there, use data from another major bullet/powder manufacture for a LIKE wgt/style bullet and start with their bottom load. Better yet take the average of a couple manuals data for the same wgt bullet and work from a reduce point based on their max. Work up slowly watching for problems and stop when you hit either the listed velocity or max charge.
Don`t "shop around" in all your manuals for the data with the highest powder charge when you do this. Stay with lower charges and try to keep as many components the same as the book uses.
You are not IMO being unreasonable in wanting data for the specific bullet you are useing. The data though from other sources is very close to being just as valid though, and shouldn`t be ignored if it is all that is available. Here is a sample of various manuals data on the 50 gr bullet in a 223 Rem with Varget and how I would work with it.
Hodgdon 2008 - 27.5gr Varget
Speer #14 - 27.5 gr Varget
Nosler # 6 - 26.0 gr Varget
Lyman # 48 - 28.3 gr Varget (with Sierra 50 gr Blitz)
Sierra # 5 - 26.8 gr Varget (notice the difference between the Lyman and Sierra data with the same bullet. This is the result of primer, brass, ect variation)
Now that I have some max loads to work with, I`d find the average of them (27.2 gr) and reduce by 10% (24.5 gr). Work up from this charge and stay under the lowest max, - 26 gr according to Nosler- or stop once Noslers velocity was reached.
Good luck with your load and stay safe! :)

John4me05
February 4, 2008, 08:52 AM
Thanks for the info Joe... I just havent been around others making loads and researched the given proceedures of using other data to see whats safe before... When i searched for data for the 52 Amax it was suggested using other bullets data but i just wasnt comfortable with it... I have a wife and kids and dont want to do anything that may be dangerous or lead to a problem they would have to deal with the results of... I dont know the velocity that the bullets will begin to do bad things....

sublimaze41
February 4, 2008, 03:07 PM
I love Varget in .223 in ANY weight. Shoots very accurately! If you are trying to maximize your FPS with the lighter weights then I would guess there are better powders. Many of my best loads are FAR from the Maximum load.

The only time I ever sacrificed accuracy for speed was in my .06 for an African hunt. For this particular instance 2 MOA was just fine for me.

redneck2
February 4, 2008, 05:02 PM
Yes and no.. Primers are primers right... Yes i know pistol and small and large and magnum and such but a basic primer is a basic primer

As noted above, there can be significant differences in primers. I read once that just changing primer brands can raise shot shell pressure by 7k psi. Since shotguns operate at 12-14k normally, this could obviously be a significant issue.

Dilemma with reloading is that you probably won't have the exact combination listed. For .223 you've got dozens of different bullets, maybe 12-15 powders, probably 10-15 primers, and probably 6-8 brands of common brass. I don't remember enough from Statistics to figure out how many possibilities this is, but when you figure out chamber dimensions and throat length, it's impossible to truly figure out what's exact for each firearm.

I try to keep loads in the mid-range area and use about the slowest powder I can use. Your chance of running into problems should be greatly diminished. Guys that love to "load hot" are on a fool's errand and looking for problems. There's enough safety built into a firearm that, if you keep within reason you should be fine.

HTH.

Big44mag
February 5, 2008, 12:16 PM
Ol' Joe has really good recommendations about working up a load. You definitely don’t want to break any records in velocity or the amount of powder you can cram into a casing.

If you do have critical questions you can always try to contact the powder or bullet manufacturer, although I have run into issues that they cannot give reloading advice over the phone etc for fear of a lawsuit if you blow yourself up.

I'll go ahead and throw some different things at you though, some things to consider.

You do have to be careful about some slugs, if you check Alliant's site they have data for 458 Win Mag and to use a MAX charge of 35gr of 2400 using a 300gr HP. BUT, they also recommend the same MAX powder charge for a 500gr slug. Its not always that there going to be less powder for a heavier bullet, but in most cases that is true.
There are also a few rarities that you can come across where MORE of the same powder is listed for a heavier slug. This is again in the case of a 458 Win Mag using 73gr of Winchester 748 powder and a 500gr slug compared to 75gr of 748 for a 510gr slug.
There is also a difference in powder charge compared to the bullet's coefficient, a 180gr spitz for a 300 Wby has a max charge 2.5gr higher than a 180gr Nosler Partition using Alliant RL22.

Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester loading data is available on their site, but they don't seem to be as nice to inform you if a powder is or is not recommended for use in semi-autos like Alliant's site. And not all loadbooks have this information as well.

It's also a good idea to check the manufacturer's data direct from their site or book because not all loadbooks will have the same data. I have a couple that actually list higher MAX powder charges than the manufacturer suggests on their site. If you consult the books, manufacturer's sites, reloading sites etc, find the lowest MAX charge and stay below it.

If you enjoyed reading about "Can someone give me the data for a 50gr Vmax in 223 for Varget and RL7" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!