Loading Black Talons


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bullseye308
February 2, 2008, 10:11 PM
I was fortunate enough to find a quantity of 147gr .355 Black Talon bullets at a local "toy store" for little of nothing and can't find load data for them. I will be loading them in 1x nickel 9mm cases using Bulseye powder. These will be carry loads, so they will have to be as close to original specs as possible I think to ensure proper expansion and penetration if they are ever used(most likely not, but we stock up for the zombie invasion, don't we?). Would it be detrimental to load these in a 357? I have loaded .355 bullets in my 38 with satisfactory results in the past, so......


Thanks in advance, this looks like a great place to hang out. :)

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CBS220
February 2, 2008, 10:14 PM
I had no idea the BTs were ever sold as components. I've got a box of the 9mms laying around, but I figure maybe one day they'll have collector value.

You would be better served buying Winchester SXT, I think, though, than loading carry ammo.

ArchAngelCD
February 2, 2008, 11:55 PM
Alliant has load data for a 147gr Hornady XTP bullet and Bullseye. They list a charge of 4.2gr Bullseye for 1,010 fps from a 4" barrel with 32.900 PSI of pressure. The Min OLA is 1.14".

I agree with CBS220, if you want to carry Black Talon ammo but Winchester Ranger SXT ammo. If you want the black color paint the bullet but in every other way it's the same.

Roccobro
February 3, 2008, 02:49 AM
The black is moly coating, so you can tumble your SXT's for the same look.

I just picked up a few boxes of .357 Talons from my Dept's range as they were labeled "practice ammo". They don't use the black bullets anymore so they are of no use for carry/SD to them. :D

The SXT is the latest evolution in a fine bullet design. Load up your BT's and put them aside for the Zombies. Carry the SXT's for the goblins in the here and now nightmares. Might save your butt in court some day too.

Justin

bullseye308
February 3, 2008, 03:30 PM
The reason I want to use these is not for the look, but for the reason they were pulled from the market, they work, and they work well. In my eyes, if I ever have to use a weapon in self defense, I want the meanest nastiest bullet I can get to do the most damage possible to put down the threat ASAP. I believe the black talon to be one of the meanest and nastiest bullets available and the odds of me ever having to use them are slim to none. I don't work, don't get out much, and this will just be carried at home, so I am allright with the legal ramifications should they arise. I guess I'll just load them up and put them away for a rainy day and use the Win silvertips that I have. I have loaded 9mm 115gr FMJ in the past and they grouped tight but low, will these heavier bullets hit higher or lower at the same velocity?

Thanks again.

rcmodel
February 3, 2008, 03:36 PM
Heavier & slower bullets should hit higher with the same sight setting.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

bullseye308
February 3, 2008, 03:48 PM
Great, my rear sight is only adjustable for windage. It is an Astra A-100 and shoots 115gr FMJ or JHP very well, but I am wanting to use a heavier bullet. More often than not I can hit a piece of 7.62x54 brass at 65' by holding off 3" high and was hoping with a heavier bullet that it might be dead on. We'll have to see if I can make it happen.

Thanks for the help.

nitesite
February 3, 2008, 05:37 PM
If you have Accurate #7 then 7.0-gr under a 147 BT with a WSP primer would be almost exactly "on" to replicate the factory load. I think Bullseye is way too fast for 9mm. Accurate #7 is pretty good at flash suppression as well.

If you want to try Accurate #7 then start around 6.4-gr and then work up toward the 7.0-gr I suggested. That should get you 1,000-fps with a nice pressure curve.

"I'm nitesite and I approved this message."

basicblur
February 3, 2008, 06:03 PM
The reason I want to use these is not for the look, but for the reason they were pulled from the market, they work, and they work well.
Black Talons are still with us in the form of Ranger "Law Enforcement Only" ammunition. They're not black any more, and they're much improved, performance-wise...

Might wanna do some research on the reason they were pulled from the market, as well as how good they really were. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=335295

Don't remember where I read it (either Stopping Power or one o' Ayoob's books/articles), but I remember it being said that Black Talon penetrated too far before expansion, and as such really wasn't that good. The redesigned (and renamed) replacement supposedly expands more quickly.

'Course, I'm sure a lot of folks won't like the new ammo because of the name!

Odd Job
February 3, 2008, 06:45 PM
These will be carry loads, so they will have to be as close to original specs as possible

The reason I want to use these is not for the look, but for the reason they were pulled from the market, they work, and they work well. In my eyes, if I ever have to use a weapon in self defense, I want the meanest nastiest bullet I can get to do the most damage possible to put down the threat ASAP.

In the early 90s the Black Talon was that round, but not now. It suffers from core-jacket separation and you would be better off using Gold Dots or any of the newer Ranger ammunition.

jameslovesjammie
February 15, 2008, 07:18 PM
The Ranger SXT bullet IS the Black Talon without the Lubalox coating (which was just black molybendum disulfate). For a couple of years, I heard people say that SXT stood for Same eXact Thing.

I agree with the recommendation of Gold Dots. Or XTP's.

bigcim
February 15, 2008, 08:36 PM
I do not think they are the same the black talons seem to have a little ninja star looking thing inside the hollow point cut out
If some wants to post a pic of a ranger bullet 45acp. Ill post a picture of the black talon

Roccobro
February 16, 2008, 12:20 AM
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i18/nielsenjt/IMG_8242.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i18/nielsenjt/IMG_8241.jpg

I have seen Winchester display boards with every caliber SXT full expanded, and another that showed the amount of expansion through different amounts of clothing. NONE of them had the "talons". From the outside, these two look identical except for the color. HS is "WINCHESTER 45 ACP" for the SXT, and "W-W 45 ACP" for the black talon. I didn't photo my .357 or .44 mag BT's. They *could* look different but that isn't what we are comparing.

Justin

pruav
February 16, 2008, 12:58 AM
I wouldn't carry black talon reloads for SD unless you are buddies with a good lawyer. Some prosecutor might have a field day with you in court in the event you used them on some one.

Here is a pic of a fired factory .45 BT that I recovered. I have gone to Gold dots as my carry load.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/pruav/balcktalon.jpg

highorder
February 16, 2008, 01:06 AM
I believe the black talon to be one of the meanest and nastiest bullets available

I believe you may want to consider some of the good advice in this thread.

buy and carry factory ammunition. Shot placement is more important than the meanest nastiest bullet that misses a vital organ.

pruav
February 16, 2008, 01:23 AM
Here are some more pics of recovered .45 hollow points fired into water

Gold Dot & Black talons
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/pruav/guns/02_15_1.jpg

the GD expanded to @.7, the BT @.75

Older Hydra shock & Hornady XTP
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/pruav/guns/02_15_2.jpg

HS @.65 with jacket seperation : Xtp @.61

bullseye308
February 17, 2008, 12:10 AM
Pruav, that first pic you posted is what I remember and the reason I like them. Look at those talons. :) On the others, how much water were they fired into? I will look into factory ammo for carry, have no worries, even after many discussions on many forums about carrying your loads for self defence and finding no case where it was an issue. My only concern was the issue of possible over-penetration, not the separation problem. Highorder, I will definitely consider the advice, that is why I asked for it. As for "Shot placement is more important than the meanest nastiest bullet that misses a vital organ.", I think I got that covered. :) I've been needing a reason to try out some gold dots, looks like this will do. Thanks for the info guys. Not bad for 20 rounds if I might say so.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i151/mikesstuff_2006/100_4402.jpg
Couldn't get the pic uploaded. :(

Sunray
February 17, 2008, 03:58 AM
Please reduce the size of your pictures. A dial up poster will be loading this page until Tuesday.
"...can't find load data..." Load for the bullet weight. Who made them doesn't matter. Alliant says 4.2 grains of Bullseye is the max load. Reduce by 10% for a starting load.
Hodgdon's site has a bunch of loads with several powders for a 147 grain jacketed bullet. http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
Mind you, it's pointless working up a load for bullets that you won't be able to get regularly. You should always practice with the ammo you intend using.

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