AR-15 accuracy


PDA






Bartkowski
February 3, 2008, 11:11 PM
Search feature is not working for me at the moment so I will just ask. What kind of accuracy should be expected from a standard ar-15 with a 16" barrel? Bushmaster vs. RRA vs. Stag?

RRA says that their "entry tactical" will shoot MOA at 100yards which is plenty accurate for me. But then I hear stories of a standard bushmaster shooting 4-5 MOA at 100yards. All insight is welcome.

If you enjoyed reading about "AR-15 accuracy" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Bartholomew Roberts
February 3, 2008, 11:24 PM
First, in measuring accuracy by MOA, you need to know:

Distance
Number of rounds in the group (5 minimum, 10 preferable)
Type of ammunition (most cheap FMJ ammo is only 3-4MOA from a top notch barrel)
Shooting position
What the shooter can do at their best

Pretty much any of the rifles you mention has more inherent mechanical accuracy than most shooters are capable of appreciating. I suspect all of them are capable of 1-1.5MOA five round groups at 100yds with match-grade ammo that they like (you may have to try a few to find what it likes best).

cracked butt
February 3, 2008, 11:33 PM
There's a poster on another board that I visit that was complaining about only getting 4 moa out of his Bushmaster M4gery. He admitted that he's only shot Wolf ammo through it and didn't want to spring for some premium match ammo to get a better idea of what his rifle was capable of.

My analogy about buying a high end sports car then being too cheap to put anything but the lowest grade gasoline in the tank comes into play...

Fast Frank
February 4, 2008, 12:22 AM
My M4gery (Smith and Wesson) doesn't have sights that tend to give great bench rest groups.

It's setup for getting fast hits on moving targets.

With the EOTECH, from the bench, It's done just under an inch at 50 yards with Remington 55gr soft points.

Call that 2MOA and get on with it.

Good enough for a combat rifle.

W.E.G.
February 4, 2008, 12:41 AM
ammo selection is very important

see http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2127260#post2127260

A 2 MOA gun can go to 5 MOA with just a change of ammo

Ridgerunner665
February 4, 2008, 12:48 AM
From my Smith & Wesson M&P 15...

10 shots at 100 yards...iron sights...with a scope this group would shrink. These were handloads using 55 grain FMJ-BT bullets

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/121_2174.jpg

10 shots at 200 yards...

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/121_2176.jpg

10 shots at 600 yards, iron sights...4 missed the paper, the wind was blowing pretty hard that day...the quarter is roughly the center of the group. The paper was taped to a Cadillac hood...which was my POA...I cant see a sheet of paper at 600 yards. I fired 1 shot, then my son placed the paper over the bullet hole, then I shot the group using the same sight picture...

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/121_2173.jpg

garrettej8
February 4, 2008, 03:01 AM
that's pretty damn accurate for using just iron sights, nice job. I'm picking up my stag tomorrow so hopefully it's close to that accuracy. unfortunately I won't be able to go to the range for maybe a week.

trigga
February 6, 2008, 12:03 AM
wow if i could shoot like that at 100 yards i wouldn't need optics... very impressive.

Ridgerunner665
February 6, 2008, 12:52 AM
You can...it just takes a few years of practice. I grew up shooting iron sights (couldn't afford a scope)...by necessity I learned to use them. Its all about sight picture and being familiar with your ammo's trajectory. (not really that simple...but to put it in a nutshell)

lencac
February 6, 2008, 01:35 AM
Colt Match H-Bar with it's favorite handloads and this rifles has literally thousands of rds. through it. I have shot Colt 16 in. barreled rifles and very accurate too. I would expect nothing less no matter what the brand.
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7215/ar15hz8.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9714/artargetyx9.jpg

Don't Tread On Me
February 6, 2008, 08:45 AM
Wow....I have 20/15 vision and cannot even see that at 100 yards.

That group, made with a S&W MP (non-match grade barrel) rivals the performance of match-grade barrels, but was also shot iron sights?

I'd have to be there to believe it.

cracked butt
February 6, 2008, 08:54 AM
Wow....I have 20/15 vision and cannot even see that at 100 yards.

That group, made with a S&W MP (non-match grade barrel) rivals the performance of match-grade barrels, but was also shot iron sights?

I'd have to be there to believe it.

You mean that you don't take everything you read on the internetz at face value either.

gcpd
February 6, 2008, 10:03 AM
I have the RRA Entry Tactical. You won't be dissapointed if using quality ammo.

HJ857
February 6, 2008, 10:48 AM
I have a Bushmaster M4. I've only shot my own loads, which are slightly lighter than max with a 55g soft point. With a cheap Leapers 6x scope I can shoot an average 1.25" groups at 100yds. I was originally hoping for 2.5" or better, so I'm plenty happy with this upper.

Mine is not chrome lined, does not have M4 ramps and the ramps are not polished, I only use PMags, and it's absolutely reliable.

Ridgerunner665
February 6, 2008, 11:23 AM
Dont Tread On Me...if you were here I'd gladly prove it to you. I'm not your "average Joe" shooter...but since you don't believe me I wont explain any further.

lencac
February 6, 2008, 11:48 AM
Not to make this thread take a fork in the road, however, ridgerunner is to be congratulated for a job well done. I have seen and I have done with iron sights groups that others can't do with scopes. So don't kid yourselves into thinking that just because you can't shoot iron sights that everyone else is likewise unable. As stated it's all about sight picture, knowing your set-up and repeatability. Having a trained eye to focus at the correct spot at the correct time is somewhat the trick. It takes practice. Picking an arbitrary spot that allows visual cues can help also.
This is a pic of a group I shot at 100 yrds. off the bench with my national match Swede, CG63, and iron sights, 6 rds. Also some iron sights are better than others. These iron sights are like optics without the optics.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3098/img2456qa4.jpg
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/4954/cg63nationalmatchswedebs2.jpg
Is ridgerunner's pictured group his best? Perhaps. I know I don't take the time to photograph crappy groups.

Dave P
February 6, 2008, 11:56 AM
"then my son placed the paper over the bullet hole"


Hold real still now, son!

Ridgerunner665
February 6, 2008, 11:57 AM
LMAO...he taped it there.

Ridgerunner665
February 6, 2008, 12:00 PM
Is ridgerunner's pictured group his best?

So far, with this rifle it is...I've only had it a few weeks.

briansmithwins
February 6, 2008, 12:41 PM
I checked a friend's DPMS 16" upper with 2 types of ammo he's interested in on Monday. Target was at 50 yards, 2 groups on left were 62gr PPU, 2 groups on right were 75gr OTM from PPU. Point of aim was the center bottom edge of the 3" post-it, grid is 1". Rifle had YHM iron sights and I wasn't real happy with the light, but if you shoot in OR in the winter you take what you can get. BSW

edited to add: Carbine was sandbagged and has a 1/7 barrel. Perma-mounted FH and the crown looks like 7 miles of bad road. BSW

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/16inchcarbineat50yards.jpg

Guitargod1985
February 6, 2008, 01:19 PM
briansmithwins, what twist rate is that barrel that you used?

lencac
February 6, 2008, 02:26 PM
As brainsmithwins stated it is a 1 in 7 inch twist. That is also what my AR is. I have literally tens of thousands of rds. through it and can confidently say the heavier the bullet the better it shoots. 75 gr. Hornady and especially Sierra 80 gr match kings work the best. It will shoot 55 and 62 gr. ok but nothing to write on THR about.
Where about you at in Or brainsmithwins? I shoot at the JCSA range by Merlin. It is the best range ever!

Bartkowski
February 6, 2008, 03:31 PM
Not to change the topic, but if I were to build an AR-15 from a rifle kit like the one here http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt101.htm and a stag lower, would the gun be any less accurate?

dm1333
February 6, 2008, 03:40 PM
I would believe Ridgerunners groups. At 200 yards with iron sights and Wolf Ammo I was able to shoot 6 inch groups on a windless day. My groups tightened up to 4 inches with 75 gr. Hornady. With a 1 in 8 twist those Hornadys may have been a little too heavy for my rifle. The only other round I have put through that gun was a box of 45 gr Winchesters and I had a pretty nice pattern going!

wcwhitey
February 6, 2008, 05:21 PM
No reason to not believe Ridgerunner, that is good shooting. Good quality practice done often can do that. I only have one gun that is scoped, my DPMS LowPro 16" Bull. It will leave them touching if I load the 52 SMKs right. I have yet to find a load that will get my Bushmaster to do the same. It has A1 sights and will shoot 1-2" with the same 52 SMK handloads. Most surplus and FMJ handloads will do on the better side of 2" and 3-4" with Wolf. Find a load they like and either buy a truck load of it or warm up the press.

green-grizzly
February 6, 2008, 05:29 PM
Most of my fairly stock ARs can get 3-4" groups with milsurp ammo, or about half that with handloads or match ammo.

Nhsport
February 6, 2008, 06:21 PM
To the original question . The average AR 15 is a pretty accurate general purpose rifle . Looking at several of my rifles and quite a few that belong to friends I will claim the average 16" standard chrome lined barrel will shoot around 2" (say 1 3/4 to 2 1/2") on the average with decent ball ammo . (fed Xm193 or similar). Most guys will need to use a scope to beat that ,a red dot might be slightly bigger (but faster) and pretty much only the real skillfull shooters will beat that with regular iron sights. A match barrel ,a 20" upper or match iron sights which would be a slimer front post with a smaller apeture rear sight could all help shrink groups if the shooter has the skills to use them . Ball ammo is only going to shoot so tight , match ammo will again help the skilled shooter .
The wonderfull groups posted by Ridgerunner are something to strive for but most of us would be disapointed if we expected a stock gun with stock irons to shoot that nice .

Ridgerunner665
February 7, 2008, 12:04 AM
Maybe I did get a fluke gun...if so, I'll take it.

Those groups are nothing to write home about to me...my 308 and my 300 Win mag will both shoot less than 1/2 moa at 100 yards...but they are customs with Lilja barrels. I have a 270 Improved thats the tackdriver. On a good day it will print groups to tell about at 300 yards and beyond.

17footter
February 7, 2008, 07:31 PM
+1 "Wow....I have 20/15 vision and cannot even see that at 100 yards"
I wish I could seen that one square inch box at 100 yards open sight.

feedthehogs
February 7, 2008, 08:39 PM
I have 6 different Bushmaster configurations, shorty ak, dcm, 20" target, 2 m4 style with different configs, and a varmit style.

All shoot dime size groups at 100 yards with 62 grain green tip. 55 grain spreads the group to nickel size

The dcm and target with handloaded will shoot one hole at 100 yds and dime size at 200 with no to lite wind.

They all have 2 stage triggers which helped with the accuracy.

Ridgerunner665
February 7, 2008, 11:20 PM
17footter,
When you're shooting with open sights at a distance...you're not aiming for the 1 inch square.
As I said before, you remember the "sight picture" which is what you see when aiming at the 8"x10" sheet of paper or the 5'x7' car hood, pull the trigger when everything looks EXACTLY the same as it did when you pulled the trigger for the previous shot. I don't know how else to explain it, I wish I knew how to put it so you guys could understand it....in a word...its FUNDAMENTALS

CraigC
March 12, 2008, 10:03 AM
When you're shooting with open sights at a distance...you're not aiming for the 1 inch square.
As I said before, you remember the "sight picture" which is what you see when aiming at the 8"x10" sheet of paper or the 5'x7' car hood, pull the trigger when everything looks EXACTLY the same as it did when you pulled the trigger for the previous shot. I don't know how else to explain it, I wish I knew how to put it so you guys could understand it....in a word...its FUNDAMENTALS

Exactly! When you're shooting for groups with open sights, you have to match your target to your sights. You don't need to be able to see a tiny target to shoot tiny groups, you need a target that you can get a consistent sight picture with. When I'm shooting with open sights at 100yds, I use either an 8" solid black square, or an 8" solid black bullseye, depending on the type of front sight. That allows me to replicate my sight picture more easily from shot to shot. I've shot sub-MOA groups with everything from target peeps to the semi-buckhorn rear sights on my Winchester 1895 .405WCF. Matching your target to your front sight allows you to find the identical sight picture every shot. That consistency combined with an accurate rifle loaded with a load it likes results in small groups. Not your ability to see a quarter sized target at 100yds.

Sorry to tune in late, I was searching for info on the S&W M&P15 and .22LR conversions.

Doug Kennedy
March 12, 2008, 10:25 AM
I know of 2 Les Baer AR15 that will shoot .175-.250 with 1-9 twist 26gr H335 55 nosler 55 gr bt. 20" barrel and a leupold 45X scope. These are not my ARs..............I wish They were!

skinewmexico
March 12, 2008, 11:21 AM
My Bushmaster shot under 2 MOA at 100 yards with iron sights, about 1 moa with a scope. If one won't, it should go back to the factory. It's not like there is a quality difference when you're talking Bushmaster/RR/DPMS/S&W.

BAT1
March 12, 2008, 01:39 PM
My Bushy M4A3 carbine is getting 1" groups at 100 yds with SS 109. Sightron 3x9x42 scope on top. 15 minute trigger job.

rklessdriver
March 12, 2008, 04:14 PM
Ridge Runner
There should be absolulty no reason to doubt your groups. IMO congrats thats good shooting!

I have seen many groups that size or smaller during my time as a competitive marksman in the Marine Corps at Intrumural and Division level Matches. All of them shot with worn out standard old service M-16A2's.

I personally have and have seen other really good shooters hit the shot spotter (6") numerouse times during regular rifle qualifications at 500yrds.

Considering the condition of the barrel crown on some of the M-16's I have seen (due to the way Marines are taught in Boot Camp to scrape the carbon off it with the sharp edge of a cleaning rod...), its not hard to believe a new 16" CAR would be capable of similar or better accuracy.

I know my presonal 16" CAR I built from a Bushmaster lower and a Model One kit about 9yrs ago will shoot less than 1" from a rest @ 100yrds.
Will

rino451
March 12, 2008, 06:42 PM
I believe you Ridge...

More people need to take their AR's to an appleseed shoot and see what it'll do.

collateral
March 12, 2008, 07:39 PM
my bushy m4 will do 1 inch groups or less with 62 grain black hills fmj at 100 yards if I do my part.

ny32182
March 12, 2008, 09:05 PM
Mine have done 3-4" with milspec ammo.

My first set of handloads, shot through a 20" CMMG milspec upper, the best load did a 10 shot 1.3" group. (68gr Hornady BTHP, 23.7gr Varget).

I'm not a perfect shooter, but I think the ammo is a major component. Assuming an average rifle and shooter, the biggest component.

I have loaded more of the load above, and hope to attempt to duplicate the performance soon.

brentn
March 12, 2008, 09:30 PM
jeez.. how do you get groups like that with just irons? your 600 yard shots look like my 50 yard shots with irons! lmao,

tell me the trick.

NC-Mike
March 12, 2008, 10:34 PM
My 20" Bushmaster will do 2 MOA with Remington UMC 55GR ammo.

By 2 MOA I mean under 3 MOA. The groups may measure 2.5 or 2.75 inch. I don't shoot match ammo but I imagine it would do better with match ammo.

If you enjoyed reading about "AR-15 accuracy" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!