Dealing W/ Anti-Gun Cops


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Treo
February 4, 2008, 03:41 AM
The police in my area are NOTORIUSLY anti-gun.While I make it a rule never to dislose my CHP status unless asked. I'm not sure what to do ( I am positive its only a matter of time) when a cop who I just informed ( because he asked) wants to know "What makes you think YOU need a gun? Somehow I don't think this is the proper time for me to get on my 2A soapbox, and remember this isn't some random anti I ran into at Wal-Mart , this is someone who has all the authority they need to make my night a real bummer. Can I get away with a polite variation on " I'm sorry officer, but this isn't really a conversation I'm comfortable haveing right now? " or do I start singing the praises of Ron Paul? Help me out.

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Ridgerunner665
February 4, 2008, 03:47 AM
Its the perfect time to get on your 2nd Amendment soapbox...if he asked me that question I'd answer... "Because this is the Land of the Free and I have just as much of a need for a weapon as you do, Sir.

ArfinGreebly
February 4, 2008, 03:55 AM
"Well, officer, pretty much the same reason as you. Because with the world like it is today, you just never know."


"Well, officer, honestly I hope I never do. Thing is, if I ever do need it, there won't be anything that can substitute."


"Well, officer, I owe it to my family not to wind up dead just because I didn't take basic precautions."

Feud
February 4, 2008, 04:08 AM
"I hope that never NEED a gun, officer. But like yourself, should anyone ever decide to start shooting at me I'll be very glad that I have one."

"For the same reason I keep a First Aid kit and jumper cables in my vehicle, because bad things sometimes happen to good people."

"It makes me look cool" (This one might not work so well.)

W.E.G.
February 4, 2008, 04:10 AM
first to say:

"because its too heavy to carry a cop"

Nnobby45
February 4, 2008, 04:35 AM
"Because the violent people you deal with every day usually prey on law abiding folks like me. If they weren't still out on the street, you wouldn't be needed and would be employed elsewhere."

" Well, officer, when you get a call to a violent crime in progress, what percentage of the time do you get there in time to prevent injury to the victim? That's what I thought."

"For the same reason you pray that a loved one of yours won't meet up with some of the people you deal with everyday because you haven't taken them off the street yet--as far as I know."

"What are the chances I might actually need a gun, officer? About the same as for all the people who needed theirs when the odds were they wouldn't."

Actually, every anti-gun officer already knows why you have a gun.

Don't really think it's his/her place to admonish you in a non professional manner based on personal opinion, but should, instead, save such admonishing for wrongdoers.

Maybe a complaint to his superior would be in order, unless that's the attitude from the top down.

granuale
February 4, 2008, 04:57 AM
"Because history proves that government agents are not to be trusted with the defense of life and liberty"

"Because people like you have them"

"Because I'm a citizen, not a subject"

Probably the best one is

"I'm not interested in conversing with you on any topic. Please tell me what I am legally required to do to be on my way."

Warren
February 4, 2008, 05:07 AM
I don't understand the question. Why wouldn't I have a gun?

TAB
February 4, 2008, 05:19 AM
Not sure if this would help you or not...but I would feel good saying it to them.

"why don't you ask your boss, he was the one that issusd it to me"

Fallowed by a trip to the watch officer to express my feelings about the question I was asked by his officer.

Mannix
February 4, 2008, 05:21 AM
Castle Rock v. Gonzales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales)

Deanimator
February 4, 2008, 08:23 AM
"Because if I don't defend my own life, nobody else will either. You've got no legal duty to protect me."

Master Blaster
February 4, 2008, 09:00 AM
Ask him when the last time was when he showed up before a crime and prevented it from happening.

SDC
February 4, 2008, 09:23 AM
"Because when seconds count, the police are only a few minutes away."

CryingWolf
February 4, 2008, 09:28 AM
"What makes you think YOU need a gun?" Start laughing out loud and say "That is one of the stupidest question I have ever heard!"

ZeSpectre
February 4, 2008, 09:43 AM
What makes you think YOU need a gun?
When did a right have anything to do with need?

But seriously if a police officer asks you that question, get his/her name and badge number and contact their supervisor later (remember, NOBODY wins an argument on the spot with an officer and being smartassed with them is simply BEGGING to be introduced to the "nuisance laws" every jurisdiction has to enable officers). If you are right in the law, the officer's concern ends there and if they don't let it go they need retraining but don't try to win the case on the street.

JWarren
February 4, 2008, 09:54 AM
But seriously if a police officer asks you that question, get his/her name and badge number and contact their supervisor later (remember, NOBODY wins an argument on the spot with an officer and being smartassed with them is simply BEGGING to be introduced to the "nuisance laws" every jurisdiction has to enable officers). If you are right in the law, the officer's concern ends there and if they don't let it go they need retraining but don't try to win the case on the street.


Best advice yet.


-- John

frankie_the_yankee
February 4, 2008, 10:02 AM
I'd just say sometihng like, "Officer, I don't believe this is the proper time or place for this conversation."

CryingWolf
February 4, 2008, 10:09 AM
"I have four ex-wives, and three of them know how to shoot"

One of the best advice I had ever heard was from a comedian. If you can make them laugh it might make their whole day. I know some just don't have a sense of humor but it might be worth a try.

Also, this question might come out a little different when a male officer is talking to a female. I wonder how many LEOs would pose this question to a lone female. I am sure my wife would remind the officer of a few tragic events that happen to women being kidnapped, raped and killed.

Kingcreek
February 4, 2008, 10:20 AM
What are you doing that leads to LE encounters/interviews and questions?
Low profile, law abiding citizens are almost never drawn into that situation in the first place.
Instead of debating responses, might want to take a hard objective look at WHY ARE YOU BEING ASKED?

ZeSpectre
February 4, 2008, 10:31 AM
might want to take a hard objective look at WHY ARE YOU BEING ASKED?

While I agree with the general principal (i.e. keep a low profile), let's be careful to avoid the "if you were stopped you MUST have done something wrong" mentality because that's dangerously close to blaming the victim for the crime.

I worked in LE, believe me when I tell you that folks in that profession do stop people for no really good reason just to "shake the tree and see what falls out". I'm not going to argue about the rightness or wrongness of that, I'm just stating that it does happen.

ArmedBear
February 4, 2008, 10:36 AM
"Why are you stopping me here? Am I under arrest?"

"I am going to go about my business, then. And may I have your badge number, please?"

An uninvited conversation with a cop you didn't call is like a confrontation with a criminal. Do what it takes to exit the situation immediately.

If you're concerned, find out what your state's laws and precedent are regarding police harassment of law-abiding citizens.

K3
February 4, 2008, 10:43 AM
What are you doing that leads to LE encounters/interviews and questions?
Low profile, law abiding citizens are almost never drawn into that situation in the first place.
Instead of debating responses, might want to take a hard objective look at WHY ARE YOU BEING ASKED?

Speeding comes to mind. I occasionally get stopped for it on the highway. If I get stopped and get a ticket, well, them's the breaks. It's not a big deal really, and you ought to get off of your high and mighty, holier-than-thou soapbox.

And as for being asked, cops go 'fishing' a lot. It's part of their job. I don't begrudge them that at all. What you have to do is be a smarter fish and not take the bait as presented.

mbt2001
February 4, 2008, 10:56 AM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8371604453952068587&q=cop+threatens&total=117&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Nobody wins an argument with a cop. What they CAN do and what they ACTUALLY DO are two totally seperate realities. Cops want to be right. They want you to KNOW they are right. They want to be Alpha and they want you to pee yourself under their steely gaze. People that don't do that are "criminals" in their opinion.

Get out of the conversation with the eyes averted, head down manuever (Yessah boss, whatever you say boss) and then write your Police Cheif, Town council and everyone else.

I got outraged onetime that a cop pulled me over, this was like the 4th time that week. I was in college and had a very obvious red truck. On the 4th time I was irritated and started acting that way. I was handcuffed and knocked around they then found and old beer can and wrote an MIP for me. The beer can had been picked up on the side of the road. No one believed me. That was that.

Treo
February 4, 2008, 11:17 AM
I have had exactly 2 interactions W/ the local police in 5 years, I am NOT what you'd call a high profile criminal. That said the CSPD likes their "sobriety checkpoints" ( before someone misconstrues my intent I haven't had a drop of alcohol in over 25 years) when you get caught in one they DO go out of their way to find PC to search the vehicle. And should you turn down a side street to avoid the whole mess you make your self a prime suspect The 2 cops I've dealt W/ were OBVIOUSLY fishing for something bigger than a speeding ticket. I have no reason to trust the good will of any police officer I meet. If they're are any good pro 2A pro citizens rights cops out there reading this my apologies, but you have your brother officers to thank for my attitude.

El Tejon
February 4, 2008, 11:35 AM
What have I told you guys about talking to cops?:eek:

No, do not have debates with the police. Do not talk yourself into being described as "argumentative" or "combative" in the police report for your Disorderly Conduct or Resisting Law Enforcement arrest.

Remember this phrase, "Officer, am I free to go?"

No smart looks, no back talk, we can save all of that for later.:D

Once again: AM I FREE TO GO?

Byron Quick
February 4, 2008, 11:36 AM
Low profile, law abiding citizens are almost never drawn into that situation in the first place.
Instead of debating responses, might want to take a hard objective look at WHY ARE YOU BEING ASKED?


Why was the contact made? Basically because I have a lead foot and get stopped for having one. But consider the proverb: two wrongs do not make a right, my friend.

I'll share an anecdote of a recent stop I had by the only anti cop I've ever run into in my home state of Georgia. I've had more than my share of stop by officers...always with firearms in the vehicle and often with stacks of firearms in the vehicle. This was the only Georgia officer that has ever batted an eye.

I was on my way to Knoxville, Tennessee to visit Tamara, hso, the folks at Coal Creek Armory and other denizens of this board. I got off of I-20 onto I-285 in Atlanta at 9:30PM. I got off of I-285 onto I-75 North at 11:30 PM. Major wreck, two hour bumper to bumper crawl, I was ragged out. At an Acworth exit I saw a sign for a Waffle House and took the offramp to get a bite to eat. I missed the sign directing me to turn left at the bottom of the off ramp and guessed wrong...I turned right. Virtually no traffic, the area looked to be almost semi rural. A few convenience stores interspersed with residences. After a mile or so, I figured I had made the wrong guess and began looking to turn around. Came to a five way intersection with no other vehicles in sight. Took a chance and made a U turn...just as a police car crested the hill behind me. I figured I'd be pulled over. Sure, enough, here comes the blue lights. I applied the brakes, turned on my turn signal and pulled over. Got my license out and put my hands in plain view at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock on the steering wheel of my 4Runner.

The officer walked up to my window and asked for my license. I handed it to him. About that time he looked into the rear seat and freaked out.
"What in the world are you doing with an AR-15 on the rear seat?" he screeched.

I didn't know what to say to him. Somehow, I didn't think that telling him that having an AR-15 lying on the seat in Georgia in open view is completely in compliance with the law was something that he would accept with good grace. I also didn't think that telling him that I would be shooting the firearm in Knoxville and if it wasn't in the vehicle then it wouldn't be available when I got to Knoxville would go over well either.

Then he screeched,"And it's LOADED!"

Once again, I didn't feel that stating that the AR-15 being loaded in the vehicle was completely legal in the state of Georgia would have a calming effect on the gentleman. I also didn't feel that stating that an unloaded firearm is useless would go over very well with the man.

Then he asked me if I had any other weapons in the vehicle. Heh.

I replied,"There is a Kel-Tec P3AT in my right front pocket, a Springfield 1911 in a holster on my right hip, and a Glock 29 10mm in a holster under the seat." All legal in Georgia with a carry permit that was in my wallet. In the heat of the moment, I forgot to mention the Spyderco clipped to my left front pocket or the Kim Breed Damascus tanto in the crossdraw scabbard on my belt.

About this time, he called for backup...thank God.

Then he screeched again,"Do you always carry a gun on your right hip?"

Finally, a question I could answer! "Only when I leave my house, sir."

About that time, the backup officer arrived and I was directed to exit the vehicle. I did so, and the officer removed my 1911 from the holster and laid it on the roof of my 4Runner as well as the P3AT from my right front pocket. He also saw the Kim Breed tanto in the crossdraw scabbard and removed it. It was legal as I position the scabbard so it is in open view in line with my navel. No comment was made about the knife. He missed seeing the Spyderco in my left front pocket.

The backup officer asked my if I was from rural Georgia. When I told him I was he relaxed greatly. He asked if I had any outstanding warrants. I told him no and told him I am a registered nurse. He told me that while the area appeared to be a middle class neighborhood that it was a crack and meth area where the local businesses were robbed on a regular basis.

In the meantime, the officer who stopped me was running a check on the firearms' serial numbers. He got to the 1911 and noticed something he hadn't noticed before: it was cocked and locked.

He screeched again,"What do you mean carrying this gun like this???"

I'd had about enough of him at this point. "Officer that pistol was designed by John Moses Browning to be carried exactly like that. Anyone with the proper training and experience with that pistol will tell you that is the proper way to carry it."

The backup officer told him,"He's correct. I used to carry one and carried it like that."

That was the last word out of the officer who stopped me.

A couple of minutes later, the serial numbers had all been checked. None of them were listed as stolen. The check on me had not turned up any outstanding warrants. My weapons were placed on the passenger seat unloaded and I was requested to ride down to a parking lot before I loaded them and reholstered them. I complied. Nothing was ever said about the U-turn that initiated the stop and no citation was written.

Some people I've told this tale to have assumed the officer was ignorant of Georgia law. They are incorrect. They weren't there and did not observe the officer's tone of voice and demeanor. He was outraged at my armament. If he had been ignorant of the applicable laws, he would have arrested me. He knew the law. He didn't like the law he was sworn to uphold.

zxcvbob
February 4, 2008, 12:00 PM
The best answer I've ever heard is "In case you ever need assistance", or something like that. (the original was worded a little better but I can't remember it.)

Nicky Santoro
February 4, 2008, 12:12 PM
"What makes you think YOU need a gun?"

Officer, you DO understand that your chief will be informed by letter of this harassment?
May we kindly get on with the business at hand and your reason for stopping me?

ZeSpectre
February 4, 2008, 12:16 PM
I give up. Some folks just don't get the concept of "be respectful, say as little as possible, and deal with superiors later"

armoredman
February 4, 2008, 12:21 PM
I have never been asked that question by any AZ law enforcement officer. I have been asked by PD about my ammo preferance, and sidearm choice. The last time I was pulled over, (about 8 or 9 years ago, I think, haven't had a speeding ticket in 16 years.), I informed the two Pima County deputies I was armed, and where it was located. They didn't ask me to exit, or remove it, or anything but "Please keep your hands on the steering wheel." One watched me as the other took care of paperwork. I got a citation for expired registration, but called thier boss to compliment thier professionalism.

langenc
February 4, 2008, 12:22 PM
As ElTegon pointed out "Am I free to go?"

That was an article in the Wall Street Journal about 7-8 yrs ago.

That is the response they recommend to give when the LEO hands back your license/papers and asks "may I look around", referring of course to your vehicle.

That is when you ask "am I free to leave" and at other times when you feel appropriate. That cuts off the 'tree shaking' and 'fishing expeditions'. We all should discuss This with other drivers esp younger ones in our circle of friends/families.

Mainsail
February 4, 2008, 12:24 PM
Remember this phrase, "Officer, am I free to go?"

Good advice! I don't know why you would intentionally choose to debate with anyone who is obviously closed minded, even more so a cop. You are not under any obligation to answer questions like:
“Where are you coming from tonight?”
“Where are you going?”
“Why do you need a gun?”

As far as I can tell, open carry is legal in Colorado. If some ‘officer of the law’ spots your concealed firearm and starts giving you grief over it, just say, “Fine, I’ll carry openly then.” and then tuck your covering garment behind the grip and go on your way.

Treo
February 4, 2008, 12:24 PM
Telling a cop that you intend to file ANY type of complaint against them, is one of the WORST possible options you could come up W/ definetely a time to be a good witness

Thumper
February 4, 2008, 12:26 PM
Listen to El T.

On the other hand, I've never dealt with a cop that wasn't relieved to be dealing with a CHL holder.

ArmedBear
February 4, 2008, 12:27 PM
The policeman is not your friend.

El Tejon
February 4, 2008, 12:35 PM
No debates, no "I'll sue", no "this is the United States of America", no "what's your badge number?" (we'll get it later).

AM I FREE TO GO?

Bet this into your kids' head.:D

Mike OTDP
February 4, 2008, 12:43 PM
You wear a sidearm for the same reason you wear your seat belt.

Because simetimes, bad things happen to good people.

Treo
February 4, 2008, 12:49 PM
In Colorado Springs the cop is required to give you a business card if he doesn't cite you. If he does cite you , have his ID information any way

highlander 5
February 4, 2008, 12:51 PM
Bit of advice given to a younger cousin on dealing with a LEO
" Don't argue with a man who has a badge,night stick and a gun,because you'll lose the argument every time."

romma
February 4, 2008, 01:31 PM
What makes me think I need a gun?

Because 100,000,000 people were murdered by their own governments in the 20th century... That and criminals, but mostly the first reason...

ctdonath
February 4, 2008, 01:38 PM
WHY ARE YOU BEING ASKED?

Corrolary/Answer:
He is asking you the question precisely to acquire a viable reason to arrest you.

3fgburner
February 4, 2008, 02:59 PM
The last time I got a speeding ticket, and was carrying, the reaction was different. The Deputy wrote me the ticket, I signed it, and he asked me to please slow down going through his town. Because it was 0130 on a Sunday morning, by the time he came up to the car I had my Makarov out on the passenger seat, mag out / chamber clear / slide locked open. I had license, registration, and CHP fanned out in my hand like playing cards.

After he'd handed me my copy of the ticket, pointed to the Mak, and asked,

"What IS that thing? can I see it?"

Ticket, 4-5 minutes. Discussion of gun juju and exotic (to him) firearms, 15 minutes.

Treo
February 4, 2008, 03:35 PM
I'm happy to hear that there ARE some pro-gun cops ( more corecctly pro-2A cops). But those responses don't really fit the scenario I'm asking questions about. In Colorado I'm NOT REQUIRED to disclose my CHP to a cop UNLESS HE ASKS ME. also the cops in my Colorado don't have access to a CHP database, (IOW) unless I open my mouth OR THE COP ASKS ME they aren't going to know I'm carrying. I'm not trying to revisit that debate , my mind is made up I don't disclose. What I'm looking for are some viable options & strategies for politely ( one should always be courteous to a cop) refusing to engage in the debate W/ him.

jeepmor
February 4, 2008, 03:54 PM
I'm with ZeSpectre, shut up and save your arguments for the right venue. On the street dealing with what may be an underinformed officer with the authority to whomp your smart azz should you decide to formulate a heated debate is not wise and will only hurt any case you wish to bring forward to his superiors.

In my CHL class, which a retired officer taught, he suggested showing it to the officer to relax them a bit. They know you've been through a big background check and wouldn't have one if you had a history crime.

Sure, it's a risk, but my reception has been good thus far in the one time I was pulled over speeding on the freeway. I think it actually got me out of the ticket to be honest. That said, the state cops in Oregon, particularly rural Oregon, are pretty decent folk in my experience.

Kingcreek
February 4, 2008, 03:57 PM
Y'all can flame me or accuse me of being holier than thou, but I just don't quite see the problem the same as some of you. El T and a couple others gave good advice.
In 35 years of driving, I have never had to have a gun discussion with an anti cop. Gee lets see, I've had 2 traffic tickets (most recent one was over 26 years ago!) and I've had maybe 6 total encounters with on-duty LEOs. ONE time, and ONE time only, was I involved in an incident with a trooper with an attitude (Illinois state police). I had been run off the road and was the only vehicle in the median when the trooper happened by. After some of what I consider moderate harrasment, questions, etc, I informed the trooper that I would not be answering any questions and asked if I was free to go. I was, and that was the end of that story.
I've had more encounters with game/conservation officers. (No citations but one warning on a boat registration tag.) They stopped or checked me because I was hunting or fishing, not because I was doing anything wrong. I have never been stopped by a LEO just because I was driving.

damien
February 4, 2008, 04:43 PM
I'm not sure the cops are as anti-gun as you think. I was buying a (real) H&K model 91 from the Gander Mountain in Joliet, IL a few days ago. A person who identified himself as a cop talked to me and the salesman for a bit. He didn't have a problem with my buying the H&K 91, he praised it for a bit. He talked about his personal guns, introduced his wife who was also a shooter, and even said something positive about concealed carry in other states. Joliet's politicians are anti-gun, the rank and file officers aren't necessarily anti gun.

dcal
February 4, 2008, 05:03 PM
Being in NJ, by default most LEOs would be considered anti-2A.

I'm terrified of being detained for no good reason (e.g. that guy from SLC, UT that spent 5 days in prison for obeying the law).

I'm always confused about when to say "Am I free to go?"

In one of the examples provided in this thread, it was mentioned to ask, "Am I free to go?" after you have had your paperwork returned to you and the LEO starts fishing. But what happens if the LEO engages you in a probing dialog prior to returning your paper work.

For instance, if a LEO asks, "Where are you going? Where are you coming from?" while still holding that paper work in his hand. Do you stare at him blankly and remain silent? Or is this the perfect time for the response, "Am I free to go?".

Thumper
February 4, 2008, 05:07 PM
I'm not sure the cops are as anti-gun as you think.

Depends on the cop in question, of course.

damien
February 4, 2008, 05:08 PM
I'm not sure the cops are as anti-gun as you think.

Depends on the cop in question, of course.

Totally agree. I am talking the odds, not about any particular person. The particular guy could end up being the biggest jerk in the world

MASTEROFMALICE
February 4, 2008, 05:25 PM
Speaking as a cop, I think most of the answers are too lengthy and convoluted. If you want to say something a cop would understand and sympathize with, the simplest answer is something like,

"Because, Officer, some people out there a god-damn crazy."

You'll NEVER meet one who would answer back, "No they're not! They're all sane!"

Im283
February 4, 2008, 05:27 PM
Byron Quick, did you intend to stop and unload that rifle before you entered Tennessee? Now you probably know better than me but I thought it was illegal to have a loaded long-gun in the passenger area of a vehicle in TN.
Maybe it being in the backseat made it legal.

Bob_P
February 4, 2008, 05:40 PM
Some good information in this book: You & The Police! (http://www.javelinpress.com/you_and_the_police.html)

El Tejon
February 4, 2008, 06:18 PM
dcal, anytime and all the time is a good time for "am I free to go?" Other than "am I free to go?", your response should be silence.

You cannot help yourself. Anything you say will be used against you (the cops are asking you 20 questions to see if they can catch a confused answer)? Now is not the time to be clever or sarcastic, be quiet (man, does it ever hurt me to shut up).

He wants your DL and registration. O.K., give it to him. "Am I free to go?"

He gives it back. "Am I free to go?" [traffic stop is over, this is all bonus time for him now]

He want you out of your car. O.K., get out of the car, but lock it up after exiting. "Am I free to go?"

He wants to search your car. "No, am I free to go?"

If you do not let him search, he will call the dog. "Am I free to go?"

If you do not let him search, he will call the prosecutor and the judge at home. "Am I free to go?"

You are under arrest. O.K., go along peacefully and we'll sort it out later.

Do not fight, do not argue. Eddie Haskell up and remember . . . wait for it . . . "Am I free to go?"

ASIDE: My paralegal was pulled over recently in rural Carroll County, Indiana. He remembered the "am I free to go" bird routine. The officer became so angry that he threw his DL back at my guy, stomped off and peeled out onto the highway! "Gravel was flying everywhere.":D

wheelgunslinger
February 4, 2008, 06:25 PM
Great post, El T. :D

Vader
February 4, 2008, 06:46 PM
Because my dear officer, its not your duty to protect me 24 hours a day

dcal
February 4, 2008, 06:57 PM
El T, excellent response! :D This has cleared it all up for me. Thanks!

Rachen
February 4, 2008, 07:08 PM
I live in NYC. All the cops are antis, along with the mayor.
So my reply would be:

"It's all right if I don't carry a gun. But if something happens to me or someone I love, you will be held accountable for not showing up on time. And the mayor will also be responsible for the crime being committed because he was the one who banned guns from law-abiding citizens. If he had followed the footsteps of Florida, this crime would have been stopped. Since the mayor has denied citizens the right to defend themselves, I therefore think that in the case of ANY crime, the mayor is the highest criminal and therefore should have charges filed against him and possibly prosecuted as such. And officer, if you failed to show up in time and stop the crime from being committed, you will have charges pressed against you as an accomplice of the criminal. Fair enough??? I think it is. When you take away the citizen's right to defense, you will have the FOREFATHERS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION TO ANSWER TO."

I would probably be tazed to the ground or beaten up really bad before I even have the chance to finish the sentence, but hey, I will write even a longer statement when I am in the hospital or in court.
I am not recommending anyone else to answer like that, just giving you guys MY personal choice.

Many of you would read this and probably say ***??? BUT, let me tell you something. Everybody takes advantage of other people when they show fear, even if it is just a slight inkling of fear. In reality, there is nothing to fear in any situation. But the oppressor is afraid of political INCORRECTNESS. Ever wonder why any oppressor is afraid of the intellectual and want to stamp him out? Because the intellectual holds real power. He holds the power of KNOWLEDGE and HISTORY, things that every tyrant despises and wouldn't want the masses under their control to learn. We should learn some more philosophy from the great old men of ages past. We can learn a lot from them.

zxcvbob
February 4, 2008, 07:22 PM
Rachen, you know police have killed people for less than that in NYC? Not saying they are all bad, but...

Rachen
February 4, 2008, 07:30 PM
I know man, but they can't always go around and kill people and terrorize them can't they? They can't cover up brutality at all when it happens. No matter how hard they try to cover up whatever happened in the past decades, it will always come out and everybody will know. Do we really want "1984" to be reality?

BY GOD, what would Jefferson and Madison and Washington think of NYC now? These great men can't even rest in peace because their decendants are being trampled and bayoneted against.

beemerphile
February 4, 2008, 07:44 PM
You might find out (like 'tater salad) that you have the right to remain silent, but not the ability.

Owens
February 4, 2008, 07:49 PM
"Am I free to go?" sounds like th ebest advice, but it would sure be tempting to say "because you won't fit in my pocket". There's that ol ability to exercise the right to remain silent.

ETA: As of yet, have not had a bad encounter along the lines of what the OP says.

Byron Quick
February 4, 2008, 08:56 PM
Byron Quick, did you intend to stop and unload that rifle before you entered Tennessee?

Intended to do so and did.

Deanimator
February 4, 2008, 09:47 PM
ASIDE: My paralegal was pulled over recently in rural Carroll County, Indiana. He remembered the "am I free to go" bird routine. The officer became so angry that he threw his DL back at my guy, stomped off and peeled out onto the highway! "Gravel was flying everywhere."
My next stop would be the police station to swear out a formal complaint. I used to write all of the trainee discharge paperwork for my company commander at Ft. Knox. I could write a formal complaint that would have that officer wet his pants. And I'd pursue it to the bitter end, with a copy to EVERYBODY in his chain of command and city and county government as well.

I don't go looking for trouble. Nor do I run from it. I don't hassle the police needlessly. NeedFULLY is another story. You don't want to do me wrong because my milk of human kindness soured in the womb.

1. I despise bullies.
2. I hold grudges.
3. I have absolutely no sense of proportion.

If you act outside of the scope of your duties, there's simply NOTHING I won't do to mangle your career. And I quite literally don't care what it costs.

budiceman
February 4, 2008, 10:03 PM
Rachen, You are right! ***??? Why would any one want to live in that place? I'd be gone in a heart beat saying "am I free to go!!

Grizfire
February 4, 2008, 11:32 PM
Keep your mouth shut as much as possible, you can only incriminate yourself. Anything you say can and most likely will be used against you. Ask if you are free to go.

Here is a good video on how to deal with the police. A bit long but definitely worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

BigBadJohn
February 5, 2008, 01:13 AM
Never argue with the police,Keep quiet, they're just doing their job. If you're not doing anything illegal it's just an inconvenience.

yhtomit
February 5, 2008, 01:13 AM
I've been stopped by cops (as far as I can recall, and I think I can ;)) in 15 years of driving a total of three times: once for exceeding the posted speed limit near Nashville, TN, and twice (on the same night, in the Big Bend country of Texas) for having a headlight out.

As it happens, the TN trooper was rude and a bully; the Texas cops were friendly, polite, and respectful -- doesn't prove that the same is true of any or all of their fellow troopers in either state. There are bad apples and good eggs in most areas of life.

I'm amused by many of the above responses, but would say that discretion is the greater part of valor; lines like "Because people like you have guns," or "Because there are a lot of crazies about!" definitely would not have helped me in the speed-trap stop in Tennessee, but might have gotten a chuckle in Texas.

Also, though I understand that there are fishing expeditions for Probable Cause, there are also normal human interactions, and sometimes -- even if it's just sometimes -- it's worth assuming other than the worst. "Where are you headed?", when I'm headed for the Terlingua Chili Fest and looking forward to it, is a question I don't mind answering, or at least I didn't in the context when it was asked. The PC-quest does exist, sure, but cops also seek to defuse the tension inherent in an arrest by their manner and by asking casual questions (even if the purpose isn't casual), in the hopes that people do not do tense, stupid things -- enlightened self-interest if nothing else.

My other contacts with police have been mostly positive; the negative ones underscore that the good ones suffer from the bad ones, too.

timothy

mbt2001
February 5, 2008, 11:40 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

Chris Rock always has excellent advice on this matter...

Mainsail
February 5, 2008, 05:21 PM
This WA case (http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/index.cfm?fa=opinions.showOpinion&filename=257967MAJ)is fresh off the presses:

Sweeney, C.J. -- One of the "jealously guarded" exceptions to the general requirement of a search warrant is the search incident to arrest. The state Supreme Court established what has been called a "bright line rule" in State v. Stroud.1 The rule is that police can search a vehicle incident to arrest without the authority of a search warrant.

Here, a deputy sheriff stopped a pickup. The driver left the truck, locked it, and sat on a curb. He refused to give the deputy the keys to the truck. The deputy arrested him, seized the keys, searched the truck, and found drugs under a seat. The question here is whether the act of leaving the truck and locking it precludes the search incident to arrest authorized by the court in Stroud. We conclude that it does. And we reverse the conviction here for possession of methamphetamine.

FACTS:
A Grant County sheriff's deputy stopped Willis Quinlivan because Mr. Quinlivan was not wearing a seat belt and because he was driving with a suspended driver's license. Mr. Quinlivan gave the deputy his driver's license and registration. He did not have proof of insurance. The deputy returned to his motorcycle. Mr. Quinlivan asked if his truck was going to be towed. The deputy told him it would be towed. Mr. Quinlivan got out of the truck, locked it, put the keys in his pocket, and sat on the curb. The deputy then arrested him and asked for the keys to the truck. Mr. Quinlivan refused. He told the deputy he would not give him the keys without a search warrant. The deputy responded that he needed the keys to have the truck towed and impounded. Mr. Quinlivan again refused and said he would not hand over the keys without a warrant. The deputy handcuffed Mr. Quinlivan and patted him down. The deputy retrieved the keys from Mr. Quinlivan's pocket, opened the locked truck, and searched it. He found methamphetamine under the driver's seat. The State charged Mr. Quinlivan with possession of methamphetamine and third degree driving with a suspended license. Mr. Quinlivan moved to suppress the drug evidence seized from his truck. The court refused to suppress the evidence.

Zundfolge
February 5, 2008, 05:32 PM
I live in NYC. All the cops are antis, along with the mayor.
So my reply would be:

"It's all right if I don't carry a gun. But if something happens to me or someone I love, you will be held accountable for not showing up on time. And the mayor will also be responsible for the crime being committed because he was the one who banned guns from law-abiding citizens. If he had followed the footsteps of Florida, this crime would have been stopped. Since the mayor has denied citizens the right to defend themselves, I therefore think that in the case of ANY crime, the mayor is the highest criminal and therefore should have charges filed against him and possibly prosecuted as such. And officer, if you failed to show up in time and stop the crime from being committed, you will have charges pressed against you as an accomplice of the criminal. Fair enough??? I think it is. When you take away the citizen's right to defense, you will have the FOREFATHERS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION TO ANSWER TO."
Sounds fun, but you'd still be dead wrong.

Supreme court has already ruled that officers and/or police departments or any other government agency are NOT going to be held liable for not protecting you.

Castle Rock Colorado vs. Gonzales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales)



The Badger is right (as usual) (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4158577&postcount=53) ... you don't argue the finer points of constitutional law with an officer at the side of the road, you argue it in court with your lawyer present (at least if winning is your goal).

MASTEROFMALICE
February 6, 2008, 08:09 PM
In real life Rachen's exchange would go like this:


"It's all right if I don't carry a gun. But if something happens to me or someone I love, you will be held accountable for not showing up on time. And the mayor will also be responsible..."

"Sir, that's utterly fascinating. I'll think it over in my car while I'm writing your summons. Signal me when you're done rambling.

macadore
February 6, 2008, 11:42 PM
What are you doing that leads to LE encounters/interviews and questions?
Low profile, law abiding citizens are almost never drawn into that situation in the first place.
Instead of debating responses, might want to take a hard objective look at WHY ARE YOU BEING ASKED?


You are really naive. There are communities in rural America where being unfamiliar is enough to get you pulled over. It gives the bored good ole boys something to do and they get away with this because it is usually cheaper to pay the fine than it is to hire a lawyer and fight it.

Zedicus
February 6, 2008, 11:53 PM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1

wow, that cop needs a serious talking to from his superiors & or Suspended w/o Pay.

kurtmax
February 7, 2008, 12:33 AM
Unless you personally know the police officer, they aren't just chit-chatting with you. They are looking for something to nail you with. Best to say as little as possible....

I find witty replies to be, well, pointless. The only 'witty' replies that I'd make are ones for my own self-amusement like:

"Do you have a permit for that?"
"Do you have a permit to ask stupid questions?"

I'm not out to educate everyone on the finer points of firearms rights. If I'm 'out' somewhere I'm probably in a bad mood anyways. I hate shopping and such. I prefer it to be shipped to my doorstep :) (Gotta find a way to get groceries delivered...)

ilbob
February 7, 2008, 12:39 AM
Also, though I understand that there are fishing expeditions for Probable Cause, there are also normal human interactions, and sometimes -- even if it's just sometimes -- it's worth assuming other than the worst. "Where are you headed?", when I'm headed for the Terlingua Chili Fest and looking forward to it, is a question I don't mind answering, or at least I didn't in the context when it was asked. The PC-quest does exist, sure, but cops also seek to defuse the tension inherent in an arrest by their manner and by asking casual questions (even if the purpose isn't casual), in the hopes that people do not do tense, stupid things -- enlightened self-interest if nothing else.
Problem most people have is they have no idea how extraordinarily low the bar has been set for PC.

Most people think it is pretty high, because there is a lot of LE propaganda to that effect. All the stories about crooks getting off on so-called technicalities. Those kind of incidents are very rare. Thats why they get in the news. Most of the time when evidence is disallowed it is because of a gross abuse of the process, not some minor error.

yhtomit
February 7, 2008, 04:52 PM
Mainsail -- thanks for the link to that Quinlivan case! Further evidence (none was needed) that Washington is a great state. Are you a lawyer there? (Or how did that case cross your radar?)

timothy

yhtomit
February 7, 2008, 04:57 PM
ilbob: "Problem most people have is they have no idea how extraordinarily low the bar has been set for PC."

You're right about that, I didn't mean to belittle it. My point was just that responding flexibly (or "nicely" if that word works better here) might sometimes be the smarter option. I wonder if there's PC to be found in a teeth-clenched string of "AM I FREE TO GO?" responses ;)

Maybe that could be the new cop-on-the-stand cliche, replacing "bloodshot, glassy eyes, and with a strong odor of alcohol about his person."

"The subject repeatedly asked me if he was free to go. At that point I decided he must have had something to hide."

timothy

Mainsail
February 7, 2008, 05:57 PM
Mainsail -- thanks for the link to that Quinlivan case! Further evidence (none was needed) that Washington is a great state. Are you a lawyer there? (Or how did that case cross your radar?)

No, not a lawyer. When I started carrying my pistol openly I really wanted to educate myself on WA’s firearms laws and our privacy laws. I found it fascinating how strongly the courts here protect the privacy rights, often using the phrase “jealously guarded” when describing them.

Further reading that demonstrates the strength of our privacy rights:

State v Day (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=905)

and

State v Moore (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=906)

My personal favorite, as it relates to open cary and privacy, is State v Casad (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=910)

buzz_knox
February 7, 2008, 06:14 PM
Low profile, law abiding citizens are almost never drawn into that situation in the first place.
Instead of debating responses, might want to take a hard objective look at WHY ARE YOU BEING ASKED?

Outside of speeding, it's easy enough to get that question when 1) you are at a range and some decides your AR-15 is a machinegun and calls the cops (happened to some on this board if I recall), 2) you are at your job which involves cops (i.e. court) and the subject comes up (that's how I learned a cop I know doesn't like civilians having weapons at all), 3) cops at a training course ask why civilians need "X", etc.

There's plenty of opportunities for law abiding citizens to have "interaction" with cops, without ever bending, folding or otherwise mutilating a law.

El Tejon
February 7, 2008, 06:22 PM
Too follow up, members of this board have had "interaction" with police by:

1. committing minor traffic infractions;
2. getting coffee in Wheatfield, Indiana (no, really that was the name of the town);
3. walking down the street;
4. being misidentified as a criminal suspect and almost being shot with THR member's own gun from police office trying to unload it (a P99);
5. walking back from range to their vehicles;
6. working in their businesses and having a misinformed individual claim that the business had "terrorist weapons".

Plenty of others as well. We own guns, we are all suspects.

ilbob
February 7, 2008, 06:45 PM
We own guns, we are all suspects.
Don't have to own guns to be a suspect, or even do anything suspicious these days.

Macmac
February 7, 2008, 06:56 PM
Getting stopped I am all for "Am I free to leave?"

I have no love for cops... I take people as I find them.

If asked why I have a gun, which has never been asked of me, I would just say
"Easter 99 my inlaws were murdered, not 3 city blocks from the cop shop, and after 3 hours time, the SWAT arrived to supervise the Fire Dept washing the street gutters clean" .

I rode the country from coast to coast and back on a Nomad motorcycle and didn't get stopped once, but back in NH I got stopped 3 times in the first month. All fishing trips.

First one was my sticker was out of date, and I had 9 days left to get it. Instead of being let go there was a fishing trip...

Next one was so called speeding and I got no ticket. I was driving a sin bin, the most hated vehical in NH. A van here = drugs.

Last was classic. It was dusk and I stopped so my wife could buy water, and turned my headlamps to parking, and forgot, since the dash lights were still on, when I pulled out under street lamps.

I was driving that van and the rei was locked in a Brinks Box with other papers. That was fun because the officer got to peek over my shoulder, while I hunted the regi down, which I never found, because he called it in.

I got a lecture from a kid cop all about bears, deer and moose, as if I didn't have these critters eatting at my window, like you guys have birds.

I don't do anything illegal so the fishing trips are ok by me..

I had a cop waste 45 minutes of my time in Mass because i was eatting in a private eattery wea buck skins. I was on my way home from southern Pa, and had a horse in a trailer.

After 45 min went by I told him to arrest me and ge the SPCA to deal wityh the horse which he would pay for one way or another, and then when they found nothing, he would be lucky to get a job a micky D's.

When i asked why he pulled me over just entering the road, he said I looked suspisious.. Oh yeah lots of Buck Skinners in full blown rendevous gear commit all sorts of wiild crimes... LOL

He wuz sum real impressed with my muskets, long rifles, flinter pistol, and the BOWIE... So impressed he was diggin in the junk on the seat leaving me behind him and free, right next to his side arm!

I mentioned that too.. Ya know officer next time you stop someone, IF he is a bad guy you just might not want him next to that side arm..

RandomMan
February 7, 2008, 06:57 PM
I have been stopped for minor traffic infractions before and never had a problem. If I had an office ask me, "Why do YOU need a gun?!" I would reply as follows:

"I have a license to carry. Am I free to go?"

I don't need to get into a debate with officers, I just want to go to where I am going and be left alone as much as possible. Just tell 'em the truth, "I have a license. Am I free to go?"

I can tell you that I have first hand seen the above line work. My father, a CHL holder and 1911 carrier was stopped by a rude, "anti-gun" officer, who after writing him a citation for speeding (my father has a notorious lead foot), asked him, "Why do YOU need a gun?!" My father said the above, "I am licensed to carry it, sir. Am I free to go?" Officer's response, "You are free to go."

That was the end of that incident.

-Rob

teknoid
February 7, 2008, 07:27 PM
I watched somebody try the "Am I free to leave?" routine once. This was right after he ran into my car head-on. I was stopped in the turning lane at the time. Since my vehicle is rather large, the officer was kind of perplexed at the situation anyway.

He wasn't amused with the repeated question, and "cuffed and stuffed" the gentleman.

On the topic, I'd just say "because shiite happens".

mis-spelling intentional

wingmaster1
February 7, 2008, 08:47 PM
When dealing with a anti gun policeman, as much as it hurts, don't start an altercation. You will be playing right into their hands. If it really bother's you, take His or Her name & badge # and have a little chat with their superiors. That's really good advice from THR's Seniors. Keep a low profile.

Nnobby45
February 8, 2008, 12:19 AM
They make small digital tape recorders these days that work quite well, and could prove usefull when being abused by "authority".

DJAteOhAte
February 8, 2008, 08:44 AM
I was on my way to Knoxville, Tennessee to visit Tamara, hso, the folks at Coal Creek Armory and other denizens of this board. I got off of I-20 onto I-285 in Atlanta at 9:30PM. I got off of I-285 onto I-75 North at 11:30 PM. Major wreck, two hour bumper to bumper crawl, I was ragged out. At an Acworth exit I saw a sign for a Waffle House and took the offramp to get a bite to eat. I missed the sign directing me to turn left at the bottom of the off ramp and guessed wrong...I turned right. Virtually no traffic, the area looked to be almost semi rural. A few convenience stores interspersed with residences. After a mile or so, I figured I had made the wrong guess and began looking to turn around. Came to a five way intersection with no other vehicles in sight. Took a chance and made a U turn...just as a police car crested the hill behind me. I figured I'd be pulled over. Sure, enough, here comes the blue lights. I applied the brakes, turned on my turn signal and pulled over. Got my license out and put my hands in plain view at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock on the steering wheel of my 4Runner…

How long ago was this? I’m assuming the officers where Bartow County deputies.

I live right around the corner from where you describe this happening. I hope I don’t run into the same guy you did.

El Tejon
February 8, 2008, 08:48 AM
Be careful about taping your police encounters as some states may consider this "wiretapping", inter alia.

wheelgunslinger
February 8, 2008, 08:54 AM
What about video/audio, El T?

Deanimator
February 8, 2008, 09:59 AM
Be careful about taping your police encounters as some states may consider this "wiretapping", inter alia.

In Ohio, you're allowed to tape any conversation to which you yourself are a party, without any other party's permission. You can't tape third party communications without the parties' permission.

I keep a voice activated recorder in the car.

SWMAN
February 8, 2008, 10:22 AM
"Same reason you carry one, for self-defense".

DJAteOhAte
February 8, 2008, 10:32 AM
In Ohio, you're allowed to tape any conversation to which you yourself are a party, without any other party's permission. You can't tape third party communications without the parties' permission.

I keep a voice activated recorder in the car.

Some states have separate laws against recording law enforcement, too. FYI

RKBABob
February 8, 2008, 10:45 AM
MASTEROFMALICE wrote: "Because, Officer, some people out there a god-damn crazy."

You'll NEVER meet one who would answer back, "No they're not! They're all sane!"
Best response yet.

ShadowHunter1
February 8, 2008, 10:59 AM
For those that don't know Texas law REQUIRES CHL holders to tell the officer as soon as the officer approaches the vehicle if there is a gun present and that they have a valid CHL. You may still be treated like a felon and be cuffed and the gun secured for the both parties safety. I was told this during my CHL class and by several officer friends.

I was also told that if asked why I have a gun that my response should be something to the effect that "You time and duties are are very precious to everyone, police however can not be everywhere 100% of the time and for that 1% of the time which I may get into a situation the local police officer might be busy with another crime in progress when seconds might count and minutes would be to late so I would have to rely on myself a bit more". DO NOT DEBATE OR ARGUE!!! If asked a question answer it honestly and only the answer the question asked, police have been trained and have fine tuned BS meters.

Zundfolge
February 8, 2008, 11:57 AM
I was also told that if asked why I have a gun that my response should be something to the effect that "You time and duties are are very precious to everyone, police however can not be everywhere 100% of the time and for that 1% of the time which I may get into a situation the local police officer might be busy with another crime in progress when seconds might count and minutes would be to late so I would have to rely on myself a bit more". DO NOT DEBATE OR ARGUE!!!
I would argue that your long rambling response will be seen as an argument :p

Pithy comments, well thought out debates, etc while they may make you feel good aren't going to get you through the encounter with Officer Friendly any faster and you're certainly not going to convince some elitist cop that you deserve to carry a gun like he does. So I'd stick with RandomMan's response; "I have a license to carry. Am I free to go?"

Zundfolge
February 8, 2008, 12:02 PM
Wow, a double tap ... been a while since I got one of these :neener:

ilbob
February 8, 2008, 12:38 PM
Pithy comments, well thought out debates, etc while they may make you feel good aren't going to get you through the encounter with Officer Friendly any faster and you're certainly not going to convince some elitist cop that you deserve to carry a gun like he does. Its really none of their business why you do anything that is legal. Its only their business if you do something illegal. tell them myob. :)

wheelgunslinger
February 8, 2008, 01:11 PM
I hate it when I agree with Ilbob. It's much more fun to argue.
But, there it is.

Its really none of their business why you do anything that is legal. Its only their business if you do something illegal.

vikz
February 8, 2008, 02:08 PM
I've been asked this question one time and i just said"for my personal protection"..The cool thing is after he told me why he stopped me we ended up talking about guns becs he ask me what do i carry I said "1911 in 45acp" he said "oh good knocking down power"..I forgot to add as soon as he ask for my DL I also gave him my ccw permit becs i think once they run your dl they will know anyways and you'll never know if he/she is a rookie or what not..

Old Dog
February 8, 2008, 03:01 PM
This thread really seems to have wandered away from the original topic and entered the political realm, with folks just using the thread as an opportunity to keep repeating their opinions about the current state of affairs, to wit:
Don't have to own guns to be a suspect, or even do anything suspicious these days.

Again, it strikes me as curious that folks would ask for advice on a situation that is seemingly legal in nature, anonymously, on the internet. I really expect that a more sensible course might just be to get legal advice from a reputable practicing attorney in one's own state. Of course, that doesn't generate an endless opportunity for cop-bashing and spewing vitriol on the horrific state of law enforcement in this country.

After reading through all the posts, I do know one thing: I'm sure glad I live in this state. Never heard of a cop around here hassling CPL-holders (caveat: who haven't done anything stupid) in this, the original shall-issue state. (Waiting for Mainsail to chime in with negative accounts of the open carry issue up here.)

I remain rather curious about all the input from the state of Illinois (with its draconian firearms restrictions) ... no personal experience seems to have been related ...

Deanimator
February 8, 2008, 03:12 PM
I remain rather curious about all the input from the state of Illinois (with its draconian firearms restrictions) ... no personal experience seems to have been related ...

My comments regarding the Chicago PD are based either on personal observation or documented news stories and or court cases. Go to the Chicago Tribune or Sun Times websites and do a search on "Weems", "Pleasance", "Abbate", "Burge", etc. You'll find links, links to links and links to links to links.

Old Dog
February 8, 2008, 03:42 PM
Entrenched, big-city police department corruption still doesn't (to me) have a bearing on this particular thread, nor how one, as gun-carrying individual, deals with a law enforcement officer, who at the beginning of a citizen-cop encounter, seems to declare himself (or herself) of the opinion that a citizen shouldn't be packing ... I'm thinking that personal accounts of how members have dealt with this sort of situation in the past are much more germane to this thread.

High Planes Drifter
February 8, 2008, 03:56 PM
" Well, officer, when you get a call to a violent crime in progress, what percentage of the time do you get there in time to prevent injury to the victim? That's what I thought."


I like that one Nnobby

Deanimator
February 8, 2008, 04:08 PM
Entrenched, big-city police department corruption still doesn't (to me) have a bearing on this particular thread, nor how one, as gun-carrying individual, deals with a law enforcement officer, who at the beginning of a citizen-cop encounter, seems to declare himself (or herself) of the opinion that a citizen shouldn't be packing ... I'm thinking that personal accounts of how members have dealt with this sort of situation in the past are much more germane to this thread.

Actually, I imagine that you're as likely to get hassled there as any place else, if not more so, even NOT carrying. I wear an NRA ballcap pretty much everywhere I go. I almost ALWAYS have a gun book or a copy of Smallarms Review with me, whether in my own car or driving my mother's. If you don't think those things can trigger harassment in themselve, you're not paying attention.

Old Dog
February 8, 2008, 04:15 PM
I wear an NRA ballcap pretty much everywhere I go. I almost ALWAYS have a gun book or a copy of Smallarms Review with me, whether in my own car or driving my mother's.And to think, I thought those Midwestern cops had more important things to worry about rather than hassling citizens sporting NRA ballcaps with a copy of G&A on the car seat ... um, really, isn't this just grasping at straws now, and not really concerned with the real issue?
If you don't think those things can trigger harassment in themselve, you're not paying attention.Au contraire, old chap. I am paying attention (and I get paid to), but thanks nonetheless for that subtle slapdown.

ilbob
February 8, 2008, 04:23 PM
I remain rather curious about all the input from the state of Illinois (with its draconian firearms restrictions) ... no personal experience seems to have been related
Geographically, most of Illinois is OK. The cops here outside of a few jurisdictions are mostly decent human beings doing their jobs pretty much as most of us would want them to, probably like most areas.

The real problem is that most of the population lives in Daleyistan, where it is not that simple. Chicago PD is about on par with NO, DC, and NYC as far as abusing the citizenry. It seems there is a new outrage every day.

Some of the outrages are not quite what they appear to be, but enough of them are that the CPD has well earned its bad rep.

Oddly enough, Daley has selected a retired FBI Mr Clean type to head the CPD. I can't even imagine what possessed him to do that. Supposedly, the first thing Mr Clean did was have his office swept for bugs.

Treo
February 8, 2008, 05:15 PM
Again, it strikes me as curious that folks would ask for advice on a situation that is seemingly legal in nature, anonymously, on the internet. I really expect that a more sensible course might just be to get legal advice from a reputable practicing attorney in one's own state. Of course, that doesn't generate an endless opportunity for cop-bashing and spewing vitriol on the horrific state of law enforcement in this country.

Actually, the cop bashing (I refuse to use the self aggrandizing term “LEO”) and vitriol spewing is what makes these debates fun!

In all seriousness I view any official interaction I have with any member of any police department, as a terrifying event. If you don’t like that term I’m terribly sorry but that is the best word I can find to describe my feelings when the lights go on behind me.

In 1991 at Fort Lewis (in the original shall issue state) Washington, I was arrested because someone called my barracks and told the C.Q. that there was a bomb somewhere in the building, the battalion dispatch clerk (who didn’t like me) told CID that I did it. Up to this point this is the story of a fairly minor inconvenience. The cop that arrested me refused to tell me what I was being charged (remember that fact because its going to figure back into the story) W/. He also felt that it would be a good idea to make a public spectacle of me by dragging me through the barracks twice in handcuffs.

When I was taken to CID headquarters I was left alone in a room for about an hour still in cuffs. (This is probably when I developed my pathologic fear of being mechanically restrained in any way), then taken to an interrogation room where I was handcuffed to a chair. And then the fun really began. The investigating officer told me that he knew that I was innocent (remember this is the same guy who has now left me hand cuffed for going on three hours) and that I had an excellent service record. (I didn’t know it at the time but my military career ended that night) He then asked me to do him just a little favor, if I would confess to the crime (they still hadn’t told me exactly what I was being charged with.) it would really help him out. In return for my assistance he would release me to my battalion commander with a recommendation that I receive no punishment.

When I refused to confess to a crime that I hadn’t committed, the real interrogation started, I wasn’t physically mistreated. Unless you count the fact that I was handcuffed for a total of 4 hours (and this by a cop who had already told me he knew I was innocent)

When golden boy was done with the mind games he (while I was still cuffed to his chair, probably for my own safety) typed up a transcript of our interview. Oddly enough the part where he professed my innocence disappeared, and a section in which I made a full confession was magically added. When the confes- I mean transcript was handed to me I refused to sign it and finally had enough sense to tell the cop that I wasn’t saying another word until I spoke to a lawyer.

The near term end of the story is that a month or so later after taking two lie detector tests all charges (which I still hadn’t been informed of) were dropped.

Now I’ve drawn attention to the fact that they never told me what the (according to the cop) relatively minor charges they filed against me were, honestly once they were dropped I didn’t care… until I tried to get a security clearance in 2002 and found out that they had been attempting to get me to confess to communication of a terrorist threat against the United States during a time of war. The “relatively minor charge” was still on my record 11 years after all charges were dropped.
There you go Old Dog there is a personal experience for ya’

I don’t start conversations w/ cops. I don’t say one more word than I am absolutely required to, to a cop. If I ever get pulled over and the question gets asked the only answer the cop is going to get is “Sir I am licensed to carry, am I free to go” if the conversation goes any farther I’m going to say “Sir I wish to speak to my lawyer.

You wanna tell me again why I should trust you just because you’re a cop?

Deanimator
February 8, 2008, 05:31 PM
And to think, I thought those Midwestern cops had more important things to worry about rather than hassling citizens sporting NRA ballcaps with a copy of G&A on the car seat ... um, really, isn't this just grasping at straws now, and not really concerned with the real issue?
Have you done a Google search on "Burge", "Weems", or "Abbate" and "Chicago Police" yet?

The Chicago PD seems to have endless amounts of time on its hands, certainly enough to have stayed in the news for over a year, by virtue of their physical attacks on citizens, home invasion rings, etc.

ilbob
February 8, 2008, 05:37 PM
The Chicago PD seems to have endless amounts of time on its hands, certainly enough to have stayed in the news for over a year, by virtue of their physical attacks on citizens, home invasion rings, etc.
Don't forget the chief of detectives who was running a burglary ring out of his office.

I have some sympathy for the decent cops in CPD. There are bound to be a lot of them who don't like things the way they are, but they have no way to improve things.

Some people would argue they should fight the evil that is within their department. But, I would ask just how would you have them do so? There are very few Serpicos out there with the moral fortitude to go against his brothers in blue. It is very rare.

Deanimator
February 8, 2008, 05:49 PM
I have some sympathy for the decent cops in CPD. There are bound to be a lot of them who don't like things the way they are, but they have no way to improve things.

The problem is that the ORGANIZATION is fundamentally corrupt. Individual officers are now effectively irrelevant. Three examples:

1. The Weems case. Weems got a ***30 day suspension*** for a killing that AT THE VERY BEST could be construed as negligent homicide, and more likely 2nd degree murder. Superintendent Cline overruled a recommendation that Weems be fired, imposing instead the suspension. Cline and Weems are friends.

2. The officer who savagely beat a man handcuffed to a wheelchair is COMING OFF OF a 2 year suspension. Exactly what about him would the Chicago PD be the lesser for were he not a member?

3. At every step of the way, Officer Abbate was shown deferential treatment after his bestial battering of the barmaid, from refusal to arrest him in rehab, to arrest without handcuffs, to shielding him from the media.

Discipline is simply nonexistant in the Chicago PD, and as a fundamental policy of that organization.

ilbob
February 8, 2008, 06:49 PM
The problem is that the ORGANIZATION is fundamentally corrupt.
I think that is a fair statement. And the only guy that can really fix it is himself fundamentally corrupt.

Maybe Mr. Clean can fix things, but I am betting that part of the deal for his $300k a year is that he makes few waves.

Secondcitycop.blogspot.com has a lot of interesting stuff. One thing they have pointed out several times is that according to their count there are only about 9500 sworn officers, while the city budget says there are 13,500. The salaries and benefits for 4000 cops is a big chunk of money.

jeep-2
February 8, 2008, 06:55 PM
"Because history proves that government agents are not to be trusted with the defense of life and liberty"

"Because people like you have them"

"Because I'm a citizen, not a subject"

Probably the best one is

"I'm not interested in conversing with you on any topic. Please tell me what I am legally required to do to be on my way."

that's the way i would answer..and if i've done anything wrong, lets go to court.

El Tejon
February 8, 2008, 07:12 PM
Old Dog,

Don't forget that CPD has supplied firearms, ammo and suppressors to criminals. CPD gives lessons to Boston, NYC, New Orleans, inter alia in corruption. Theft, Bribery, Robbery, Burglary, Ghost Employment, Drug Dealing, I cannot think of a crime that CPD is not involved in. Perhaps Securities Fraud, but I had better call people at the CBoT first.

If there are any police officers inside CPD who do not approve of the systemic criminal activity of this department and city, then I am unaware of any such organization or even public comment by those officers. When I am away from the tourist areas of Chicago, I fear for my safety from CPD. I would much rather bump into BGD than CPD.

I had my experience with the Chicago Police Department in 1993.

In 2003 a police officer in Wheatfield, Indiana threatened to arrest me for following the law (open carry of pistol).

Plenty of experience of experience in rogue/bad police interactions here.

Macmac
February 8, 2008, 07:36 PM
treo , I hear that!

I was framed as a civilain for hit and run on a lamp post. I wasn't convited of anything, but it all had costs in time and money.

When the DA found I would not fall for his threats, he kept reducing charges to see if i would bite for lesser than nothing. I didn't bite.

In the public court room lobby he called my wife the "c" word! All because i wouldn't go into a room 1 on 1 with him. Looking back I wish I had.

I walked free, but that didn't quite turn out to be the end of the tale.

He, that DA got his a$$ BUSTED for 514 counts of tampering with boys.. That was reduced to 4 felonies, which he is STILL serving time for!

In court he was astonished when I asked the Judge to swear him in. The court asked why I would want such a thing, and my rely was "I know this man to be a liar." The Judge said "fair enough", so the DA was sworn in, but it didn't stop his lies.

The system? What system, if any it is, The Sytem of he who has the most dollars!, Or the system on in- justice.

To me cops are just other men.. You want to cuff me an you are going to have a fight on yer hands..

I used to know cops who dealt drugs and smoked pot. When I say drugs I don't mean pot. A day of reconing is forth coming, and if the cops don't weed out the bad ones themselves they can expect "We the people " will do it for them.

As I said before I have never been asked if I had a gun, or any weapon, but if I was I would be telling that cop about the Murders back in Easter 99' when the SWAT was afraid to protect 2 elderly folks, one a current lawyer and the other a x 30 years Army man , plus 30 more in Kodak, under classified.

I will never forgive it, never. The fact the Fire Dept got there first, and the distance was 3 city blocks and insight visually I just can't cut it..

Any cop pulling me over had better have a good story because if he don't, thar's no tellin who will go home that night.

This isn't all either, but if I run too long no one will read it.

MASTEROFMALICE
February 8, 2008, 07:56 PM
Any cop pulling me over had better have a good story because if he don't, thar's no tellin who will go home that night.

We have a term for guys like you, Macmac. Guys who make threats against other people. Guys who threaten others because they don't like their skin color, or ethnicity, or their jobs.

I'll subsitute that term for a nicer one, it's a Jewsish phrase I've always liked: SHMUCK.

Macmac
February 8, 2008, 08:13 PM
That just might be, but then it wasn't your SWAT team that failed my inlaws.

Like I said I take people as I find them.. What the color of their skin is means nothing, what ethnicity they have means nothing, nor what they do for a living, so long a it isn't pushing people around for no real reason.

The fact is you as a LEO will not act untill a crime has been commited.

The guy that Murdered my elderly in law was busted for stealing knives in a store, and your system bailed his tail end out. He then took one of these knives and hacked my in-laws to death, not 3 city blocks for the cop shop.

I will never for give this. You can call me anything you like, but I would prefer it face to face.

I don't fear you personally, and I don't fear others that do your job, but either do the job, or get out.

I happen to be a citizen of the USA, an that makes me top dawg, not a so called public servant.

Might be you are a good cop, but then it might be you are not.

You are correct in that this topic makes me hot. I no longer have fear of death, or man, because not one showed the sligest interests in my in-laws.

It was me who cleaned up the mess inside the house! it was me than cleaned the blood and guts from all the places 2 elderly folks ran. This gore was on everything as you can well imagine. It was in files on the file cabinets, in the sliders in the bathrooms, on the stairs and on a black leather chair where untill I stood up I didn't see BLOOD.

Just where was SWAT I have no idea.

I have seen this, I have shot a man in self defence after calling 4 times for help to be told "Police are not personal body guards".

That guy was wanted as well for drug related and violent crimes.. No police will help. So when a call for help and none comes, a private citizen learns who will do what when.

Call me what ever you like, it for sure won't change my mind. In fact it will just further seal the deal.

I am not the problem your brothers are, if you yourself are not.

Treo
February 8, 2008, 08:23 PM
I don't know what to say about all this mac mac except that W/ an attitude like yours, it is very likely that REGARDLESS of what happens to the cop you FOR SURE won't be going home. Not liking cops and going out of your way to antagonize them are two entirely different things, even I know that. I hate to say it but if you start a roadside pissing contest W/ a cop you will LOSE ten out of TEN times.

Macmac
February 8, 2008, 09:06 PM
On the roadside I give common courtisey I would give to anyone, but i don't cowtou, quivver and beg.. The worst they can do is kill me, and I have no fear of death...

In the instance of being given reasonable requests, I will abide, but I refuse to be pushed 1 inch. In the past I found one inch leads to a win, and that win leads to a mile, and I just don't do it that way anymore.

I might not get to go home, but that is the chances you take these days. There are bad guys, and then some are bad cops.

I am more like Patrick Henery.. Give me Liberty or Give me Death.. it's all the same thing to me.

I spent 10 months on a motorcycle in the USA armed with a Kimber .45 CD Pro II. I openly preformed civil disobeance in the form of ccw carry. I just don't care. I hit 40 states and was legal in about 18.

I was never stopped one time, but on the other hand I did stop several times to help stranded motorists, all but one I was able to get running again.

The one was on a new custom chopper and his ignition went dead. There were no parts in the Bad Lands National Park, and he did get a truck and trailer by the time we parted ways.

I have pulled cops and their cruisers from snow banks in my New Hampshire, so I am not all bad assed. I just don't take crap handed on a badge from anyone ever anymore.

As a citizen I expect to be treated accordingly, with courtisey. Respect is an earned thing as I see life. There is no uniform I just respect demanded or not.

If I was speeding which i haven't been caught for since 87' I will take the ticket no problem. If a lamp is out I will take that ticket too.

Ask me for an instant search for no reason as I don't do drugs and I don't drink and drive, then the answer is no.. If then I get bullied there will be trouble.

I am 56 and have seen more than my fair share of people in certain so called places in life bully others because they can.

I have been beaten by cops because I have long hair and they wanted that to mean I had drugs. At that time I was cuffed to a steel rail in the cops garage. I had done nothing other than have long hair.

I still have that long hair. Charlie Daniels with his long hair country boy tune sums me up pretty well other than I don't smoke pot.

Treated fairly, I behave the same way. Just don't push me. Note I didn't quote MASTEROFMALICE calling me a name, and I didn't respond calling him any name.

It takes a lot more than being called a name to set me off. Now recalling the blood and guts of my lovin' brides parents sets me off, and I get Hot..

Where there is a problem as I see things , is where MASTEROFMALICE will trust his brothers in blue, for no more reason than they are like him.

I am a Biker, and I don't allow other bikers I ride with to be less than courtieous to others. If they act that way i split, and that is the end of that.

If I was paid as a biker (i wish), I would excercise a little more than just split..

I would weed out the bad ones..

I also once did historical living events for children in schools, and was paid to present a character at certain years in the past history of the United States of America.

The last day I did one of those was the very day of Columbine.

By contract i was hired, and the school by contract was to inform the police way before hand. I found long before that last day the police will not confirm such things, so i would find from the police myself if they had infact been informed. At this event like all others the police had been informed.

When I arrived at the school I was met by 6 state police cars, and 12 troopers. They formed a circle around me, and one stepped up and said you can't do this event with any weapons, can you still do the event?

Unfortuantley, he was actting rather smuggly, and so not being pushed so easy i reached for a dress, and placed this over his chest lightly and smiled.

Oh you would be safe thinking I just made a enemy, because the other 11 burst into laughter. Had he just not been so smug, things would have worked out better, and his frail ego would not have been challanged.

Well, I gathered my things, other than bow drill, flint and steel, my Nor West gun and the hawks and we all entered that school.

As always I began with 30 kids, which soon turned to 90, and then the enitre school body, plus 12 state troopers LOL. We all ended up outdoors, and I did the entire deal less the muskets and the fires bits, but when I was done some 4 hours later, one of the state troopers asked if I would be willing to go ahead with the missing parts. Of course I said yes.

One trooper went with me to get the rest of my gear, and asked to see how and what would be done, and I showed him, explaining each step.

We then went back to the assembly and I repeated it live this time. I made fire with the bow drill, and the flint and steel, and made the musket "speak".

Since then I have always wondered about that 12th trooper in the dress :D

Old Dog
February 9, 2008, 03:31 AM
Uh, so, Treo, all your questioning threads regarding cops, and your absolute distrust of cops, are spawned from that horrible experience with MPs on a military base back in '91? ...

And Deanimator, illbob, El Tejon ... was not the original post asking about dealing when anti-gun cops and revealing, or not revealing, one's CHP/CHL/CPL/CCW license status? Although I find the sordid history of law enforcement in the greater Chicago area quite fascinating, I still can't seem to tie it in with the topic at hand ... which is, after all, packing a firearm (which one doesn't do in Illinois) and dealing with those recalcitrant SOB cops who don't support a citizen's right to keep and bear arms.

As far as our friend macmac is concerned, well, ya kinda seem to have a chip on your shoulder, bud. A good cop is not demanding, or even asking for, respect simply because he's got a badge, a gun, a uniform and the power to pull you over ... all he (or she) wants is the same common courtesy you'd extend the check-out girl at the supermarket, the guy who delivers your pizza, the nurse taking your vitals at the doctor's office ... for cryin' out loud, folks, some of you seem to instantly assume an adversarial stance toward law enforcement just based on g.p.

Macmac
February 9, 2008, 12:48 PM
Old Dog, I give police common courtisey, what they do next is what sets the basis of communications.

I learned to not call for assistance because when I did they told me, "Police are not personal body guards."

I called 4 times, then I shot the the x con, and never even got a ride down town. So why call ever again?

After the shooting I called the 5th time to say so, and was told the guy once they had him wounded, was wanted for 6 bench warrents, was an x con for who knows what, the ones he was wanted for were related to drugs and violent crimes, AND the cops had to break both this guys thumbs since he was caught in the act of choking some girls infant to death!


I was polite and courtious. Just not very impressed.

I was less than impressed the guy the stabbed my father in law and his wife to death was busted for stealing knives in a store, and in the process shot by the cops in the ankel. never the less he was out on bail in hours and preformed the deed.

It is amazing the Fire Dept got there before SWAT. To go 3 city blocks in 3 hours is unacceptable. Once again I find that calling didn't get a thing done. All the local neighbors called, as this mess ended in the street, where my elderly relitives died in the gutter, being stabbed in the teens of times.

My father in law was a 30 years Army man, and 30 more years at kodak under "classsified", so to me a man of merit.

As a teen I was beaten for the crime of long hair, cuffed to a railing in the cop shop garage, with the probable cause of being a drug dealer, except I wasn't.

I have a poor history with cops which I didn't build the cops did.

The tale abouve where I drapped a dress for a women over the state trooper because he was smug and I could. I know the game and have part to play.

I am a hard ass no doubt, but I don't start the game they do, not me.

I had once cop friends, and because I moved I don't see them, but they are no longer cops. But just the same I got a deal on a Remington Rand when the Govt dumped them for the Berretta, so I am not all that bad.

That deal was to buy any guns for the PD there had to be purchased of 3 minimum. With out asking me these 2 cops who wanted the deal asked he chief to buy one so there would be 3, but the chief didn't want one so authorised me instead with out anyone telling me.

I did buy one once informed, who wouldn't.

So what I do depends on what you do, and what anyone does, which just so happens to include cops.

To me cops are a bit to close to being Judge, Jury and Executioner, all wrapped in one. What happens to be their opinion is taken as the Truth in courts, and just maybe there is no other truth to th court.

I have been pushed to far and refuse to be pushed again, not easy anyway.

That above chief is now serving time for extorsion, and embezzelment.

In another tale above there is yet another Lt. actting as DA, who os also serving time for child molestation. he tried to fram me for a felony hit and run, and he knew he was just playing a game.

He called my wife the "c" word in front of me in th ourt room lobby.

I didn;t take so kindly to his threats and calling my wife that word.

I would ask how you would feel about all these things had it been you?

Me: I have been taught to avoid police at all costs.

Another was May 16th 06 when my motorcycle was stolen. That cop refused to take evidence. Evidence was plainly available, and he simple refused and told me to get lost to boot. That event was worth a total of $15,000.00 when all was said and done, and then he refused to give my insurance company a report and any other info...

Nope not me.. When I do a job, no matter what, even wash a dish or sweep a floor you can bet I do a bang up job, any job I do is worth doing right.

Oh yeah the system... Ho Ho Ho You should see the "Document" I was sent after the bike thief was caught. I recieved a summons to court, and that ourt document has my name wrong 6 times, my gender wrong once, and all sorts of open blank spaces illegal by the LAW.

A child in Kindergarten could have done a better job.

This resulted in more threats against me. The DA assistant called my wife while I was away at work and told my wife to decide in my place as to how i would travel. When my wife told that women she would have to at least relay the message, before anything could be determined sine I wasn't aware of anything that women told my wife "Ya'll better git yer man to be here!"

My wife told her she never tells me to "git" any place.

I was the victim of the crime and then I was the victim of the systyem.

I don't make a good victim.

As to the cops and gun I answered that long ago in this thread.

I consider the varioius state laws infringment of my rights.. So I just ignor these states and pass as I wish.

There is a Fedral Law that covers this.

So long as you are legal where ever you start a trip, and will be legal where ever the trip ends, you are legal to pass thru states that other wise you might not be legal.

In states like these I placed my firearm in a locking box, also locked in my hard saddle bags.. The only way to get my firearm then would be illgeal search.

I don't put on pants with out a gun on them, and most days I carry 2 guns...

To me there is very little difference between the bad guys and the cops..

I didn't make it this way.... I have been arrested before, but I have never been convicted of anything ever. I really don't like the game.

If we all thought like many do here on this thread we would still be Governed by ENGLAND. Unfortunately our own Govt is becoming much like ENGLAND was in 1773.

Treo
February 9, 2008, 01:25 PM
Uh, so, Treo, all your questioning threads regarding cops, and your absolute distrust of cops, are spawned from that horrible experience with MPs on a military base back in '91? ...

My Questioning threads are all very specific " how do I best legally protect myself in this situation" Why do you find it so offensive that I wish to so protect myself? My local P.D. , as I have repeatedly stated, is notoriously hostile to private gun ownership. They are also notorious for making up nonexistant gun laws on the spot, as well as their fishing trips. It is not the job of the police to "protect & serve " the job of the police is to make arrests & gather evidence that will help the D.A. sucessfully prosecute the case ( note I said nothing about actually catching the guilty party) I realize that citizens like me make your job harder ( I don't care but I DO realize it) but the last time I got asked to "make a cops job easier" I almost became a convicted felon. Question Old Dog,just how many times does that have to happen before I get to decide not to trust cops? when I was young I made the one time mistake of of playing W/ a gun I thought wasn't loaded & almost killed a friend . From that one experience I learned to treat ALL guns as loaded. I'm sure you can see the paralell. Long story short I didn't pick up my attitude on my own I learned it FROM A COP.

ETA P.S. I also want to point out that I am EXTRA courteous when dealing W/ cops. I don't go out of my way to antagonize people who have no problem leaving someone in handcuff for 4 hours. That said Hell would freeze SOLID before you get me to believe that cops just "making conversation" W/ me during a traffic stop. AFAIC he's looking for a reason to turn the traffic stop into a bust & it's NOT my duty to help him do it

ilbob
February 9, 2008, 01:35 PM
And Deanimator, illbob, El Tejon ... was not the original post asking about dealing when anti-gun cops and revealing, or not revealing, one's CHP/CHL/CPL/CCW license status? Although I find the sordid history of law enforcement in the greater Chicago area quite fascinating, I still can't seem to tie it in with the topic at hand ... which is, after all, packing a firearm (which one doesn't do in Illinois) and dealing with those recalcitrant SOB cops who don't support a citizen's right to keep and bear arms.
Not a bad point. However, you have to be careful when telling people to trust cops. Some of you have obviously never experienced living in an area with rogue cops running amok. Its not a bad bet in some areas. In other areas its not such a good bet.

Deanimator
February 9, 2008, 02:07 PM
or cryin' out loud, folks, some of you seem to instantly assume an adversarial stance toward law enforcement just based on g.p.
The Chicago Police Department took an "adversarial stance" toward the general population, especially the non-White population, long before either of my parents were born. It's a stance born of an attitude of entitlement and being above the law, in fact, if not in statute.

Do I trust the cops where I live? More or less. At least I don't EXPECT them to commit violent crimes on a routine basis. You make such an assumption regarding the Chicago PD at your own peril. And yes, I assume that ANY encounter with the Chicago PD is likely to be a bad one involving criminality or at best churlishness, on their part. But then I don't expect pleasant encounters with the Black Gangster Disciples either, and the difference between the two is vanishingly small.

grog18b
February 9, 2008, 02:16 PM
As was posted before... If you live in an area with "rogue cops" Move. If you live in a state that has oppressive gun laws, either vote for people who will change them, or live with them, or move. Simple solutions.

The best advice I can give for dealing with anti-gun anyone is... Don't do illegal stuff. Have a valid license, drive a car that everything works on, and don't go 100mph everywhere. How about trying to AVOID the stop in the first place? No stop=no hassle. If the cops know your car (and if they do, it's probably due to you not following the above advice already...) Buy a new car. (Different color and model preferably) Get a haircut. Clean up your act. Behave like a law abiding, responsible person.

I find it amazing that, any person I arrest for Meth, or any other drug violation, or for the 25th domestic disturbance at their house in a month, always claims the POLICE are hassling him. Boo hoo. Don't be a meth head dirt bag, stop beating your wife, kids, mom, drive a car that will pass inspection, and the hassle will go away. Has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment, or any other. Be a responsible citizen, and you won't have a problem. Be a jerk, and you will be treated accordingly. It's pretty simple really. People tend to get like they give. If you ain't happy with the police in your area... Move. Go somewhere that the police act, or don't act like you want. Best part of living in the US. If you ain't happy in (insert location here) there are plenty of other places to live.

Russ
February 9, 2008, 02:22 PM
W.E.G., Your reply makes me smile everytime I think about it.

El Tejon, You have it nailed. Better to just be polite and get out of there as soon as possible without pissing anyone off.

Art Eatman
February 9, 2008, 02:37 PM
Too much off-topic commentary and it looks like the original question has been pretty-well answered.

Art

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