[Okiecruffler]

Okay, I'm gonna get flamed on this, I can feel the temp going up already, but I just have to rant on this abit. Everytime someone post a question about "is such and such adaquate for HD?" Immediately they are beseiged with folks posting about how that was only adaquate in the 1200's when bad guys were polite and would faint at the sound of a harsh word. Then the bandwidth is flooded with pics of their HD gun, always a black 12ga pump or auto with attached light, laser, disco ball, GPS, anti-lock brakes and 5 inch LED screen. Then we hear about how their 27 round extended mag is loaded with depleted uranium laser guided heat seeking controled explosive slugs. Where do you people live?:rolleyes:
My father once gave me some good advice about buying cars. He said never pay for all the add on bells and whistles, they'll just fail when you start relying on them. K.I.S.S. I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.:scrutiny:

[2RCO]

Well said--doo dads fail sometimes a good proven pump or wheelie or the tried and true 1911 will do the job fine. That being said Surefire lights are pretty nifty and so are lasers. Throw em on the tried and true for some extra fun.

[Tarvis]

I saw an article somewhere on how a laser saved some dude's life, didn't read it but it may have had some merit. In any case, it seems to me that training and forethought are paramount. No one will ever rise to the occasion; the best you can do is default to your highest level of training.

[LT1coupe]

I did buy a used 20" barrel to make the gun easier to manuver in the house & a mag tube extension for a few rounds more. I kept the rest of the gun intact & I can still use it to hunt if I wish just by swaping barrels & tube caps. I really like the shorter barrel, the mag extension is probrably not necessary.

[Snarlingiron]

I think I saw it said best in the requirements for a gun course I saw on a website. It had all the usual stuff, hat, sunscreen, reliable gun, and finally, he said bring all of the original parts from your gun so that when all that ninja crap that you have added fails (and it almost always does), you can put it back to right and continue the course.

[sm]

Okiecruffler,

You and I did not get older, instead we keep getting a new crop of whippersnappers that have been indoctrinated , brainwashed, and are victims of Sensory Input Propaganda.

Awerbuck, uses a double barrel shotgun.
Clint Smith keeps a 20 ga single shot shotgun near his bedside.

The only shotgun I keep handy of only two I have left, is a Youth, H&R Topper 20 ga single shot.

My old SWAT buddy, now passed, the one that he and his partner were ambushed on their day off, his partner shot, since he was walking ahead, my buddy pulled him back [dead] and my buddy was shot in the leg, weak hand draw, he killed the first perp, and after literally bouncing off the pavement, fired and killed the second perp, with a J frame.

He kept a Stevens 311, in 20 bore, for his home shotgun.

John, as you know I walked off before The Great Equipment Race got wound up, and this Equipment Race to buy skill and targets has done nothing but pick up speed since.

Folks wonder where some of the folks are that used to post here on THR, and other forums, trainers, and those that have been there and done that.

New whippersnappers ran them off.
Pat Rogers, was told by some armchair idiot, he did not know crap from Shinola about the AR Carbine...

Shotgun knowledgeable folks have been run off as well, and pistol folks too.

I will not be at your gunfight - Awerbuck.

None of these whippersnappers have ever been in my situations when guns and gunfire come to be.

My take is, I don't like some folks breathing my air anyway and Darwin's natural selection works for good guys and bad guys.

All I gotta do is take care of me and my kind.
John, you are my kind and I will watch your back, and you can watch mine any time!

You have seen the results of serious situations and do so everyday.
I have my experiences and some include the medical setting too.

Give that boy of yours a hug for me John.

Regards,

Steve

[41magsnub]

Agreed, the farthest I could see taking a HD gun is putting a light on it.. maybe. Even that is too many buttons for me when I'm jerked awake by a noise and wondering what the hell is going on trying to wake up. None of this AR15 stock crap, pistol stocks and forends, and other "tactical" garbage. I don't even see a need for a mag extension. The closest either of my shotguns get to the word tactical is a butt cuff with 5 more rounds on it beyond what is in the tube and that is because I got one for free from somewhere. 4 or 5 rounds of 20 or 12 ga with 5 reloads in a pump is a lot. If the zombies invade with my luck I'll be one of the zombies so it all a moot point anyway.

[Okiecruffler]

Well, Steve, I'm only 37, I'm sure several on this board could call me a whippersnapper (don't worry I won't mention names), but I just think this tackticool is getting out of hand. It's completely run me off the rifle forum and for the most part the pistol forums. And now everytime I open the SG forums I see at least 80% of the new post are questions about pistol grips or the newest attachment. Like I said, maybe I'm just getting old, or maybe I listen to closely to my elders. I was raised to know that there are those who have done it and those who like to talk about it and they seldom sit in the same chair.
My father in law spent quite a bit of time in the pacific, traveling from island to island on Uncle Sam's dime. Wasn't quite the tourist paradise it is now apparently. He was an unnaturally short fellow, but in 1942 the military would stretch that tape measure a bit for a guy who was willing to play. (He told me he was the only American out there the Japanese could look down upon). He told me stories of marching thru jungle so thick you couldn't swing a Garand. Carbines and shotguns were well sought after. He prefered the shotgun. We have pictures, and the SG's he's seen with don't have lights or bells or whistles, but they worked, and worked everytime they were needed. My grandpappy told me once when as a youngin, who didn't know any better I asked him how many nazis he killed, that folks who had actually been there, in the thick, didn't count bodies, they counted days. You could see it in my father in law's eyes when he spoke of the war, he had counted days, alot of them.

Jeez, ain't I feeling all wordy tonight?:rolleyes:

And you should see that youngin of mine. He's turning into quite the interesting experiment. Proves to me that there is a God, and he finds me awful funny.:D

[Nnobby45]

......... maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.


I don't know how old you are, but you're already cranky.:D

[Seven©]

I have lots of guns. But an old beat up SxS hangs over my bed. An old Davis 16ga. that belonged to my grandfather. Barrels smithed to 18", front bead replaced. Loaded with #1B.

It's what I grab when I hear a "bump" in the night...

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6193/powershot131vu5.jpg

I was "coach gun" before "coach gun" was cool.

Do I qualify for the "Old School Shotty" club?

[ldp4570]

I too feel the same way. I'll soon be turning 50, and I come from a strong military background and upbringing. To put it plain batteries fail when you need them most. I'd rather have a good set of irons to look across. Funny, I went through 20+ years in the Army as a grunt and never needed a lazer, or aimpoint, and could always make perfect quals. About the only thing cool was the night vision. Hell I'd rather have my M2 compass and a map than a GPS.

[Fred Fuller]

Lordy, John, we're ALL gettin' old around here 8^).

As to the cranky part, I'd say it was more just a touch of cantankerousness more so than outright cranky. You got a ways to go yet before you hit cranky.

'Course, not long after cranky comes curmudgeonly. THAT'S the one you have to look out for... not the curmudgeonly part, but the old age that goes with it :D.

All that shotgun stuff? Just a fad, just one more fad. Something else will come along before long to distract all the wannabe zombie killers and things'll calm down again, from that quarter anyway. When that happens we'll probably be bored for a while...

lpl/nc

[Okiecruffler]

Okay, I got to say this, that Davis is absolutely beautiful. I can feel the history just looking at it.


And like my grandpappy says, "getting old is hard, but it beats the alternative."

[sm]

John,
You were raised right.

The deal is, Lee Lapin, Gordon, Dave Mc, and others have shared actual training for real work they did, with real trainers.
A search will pull up some of the reviews they wrote.

From memory, Awerbuck suggests : gun fit to shooter, and for serious situations the stock being a tad shorter in LOP, and a light.
That is Awerbucks only real two things he suggests, as far as equipment IIRC.

Just one example of one trainer, that grew up in South Afrika, with civil unrest, war, and now instructs.
Awerbuck prefers slugs by the way, as he admits he can't keep up if he has a buck or slug loading either...

It is my understanding, and I will default to those that have taken Awerbuck's classes...

His deal is the gun fitting the shooter, a tad shorter LOP on a full stock, a light, and no PG fore end or PGO,

He does care if 12 or 20 ga, what make, or type of action, as he knows them all, and shares all shotguns have Pro's and Con's.
He wants the gun reliable, and used with quality ammunition, that has been shot for reliability , patterned/ shot for slug groups for that gun.

He wants the person to be as one with the gun, the student to know how to keep the gun running and what to do if a problem happens.

He will remind folks, he will not be at their gunfight.


My Mentors & Elders include those that served in war, from Word Wars, Korea, and Vietnam.

I know what they run, my best bud run Ithaca 37 Riot, this one has the 20" bbl.

[benatilstate]

well i guess i can include my .02 as well....im only 21, and i totally agree about all the tactical crap...is it cool? most guys my age seem to think so....but honestly, if u cant hit anything with it b/c you dont know how to shoot, all the gadgets in the world wont save you. so why no go spend that money on ammo and actually shoot rather than dumping it on plastic stuff?

The most tactical stuff I have done is putting a synthetic stock on my WASR...or a scope and a bipod on my .308. But I'd rather be shooting than shopping.

[Okiecruffler]

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for fun. I had a PGO Mossy with a 20 inch barrel and mag extention that was hella fun to run birdshot thru. But did it ever serve as a bedside companion? Guess.

[possum]

i live by the kiss principle, my hd shotgun is a remington 870 with the only mods being an extended mag tube, and a single point sling attachment.

[bakert]

Damn I'm glad I read this post. KISS says it all. Although I do buy a new or new to me gun occasionally, I thought maybe I was one of the few here that still gets along right well with the stuff and ideas I've had for years. I've wondered at times if any of those beautiful shiny guns I see pictured here, especially those with all of the gadgets and doodads have ever been fired or carried!!:D

[slabsides]

Guess you can hang me up with the other cranks. I've got a hidey hole full of hardware, from blippers to blasters, accumulated not collected for sport, fun and only incidentally for Duty at the Wall. I own ONE shotgun. It's a Rem.
12, 1100 model, Special Field, stock. My idea of a perfect upland gun, and bought for that alone. holds four rounds full up (my highest capacity long gun is a tube magazine .22.) Is my shotgun Useful at the wall? I suppose so, I keep a handful (literally) of slugs and buck 'just in case'. Shotgun in a defensive position, wife beside or behind me, waiting for the guy. If I have to, and I've had to, investigate bumps in the night, a handgun and a Maglite have been what I grabbed to go have a look-see. Usually in .45. But sometimes a handy other that happened to be at hand. I don't figure on stopping hordes of goblins at the wall. Our bad guys aren't that organized up here in Maine. Most of our o-dark 30 intruders are raccoons anyway. Goblins, I can fall back to the redoubt where the heavy stuff is stored, where Ma'am is covering the door with her .38.
I'm tired of reading about 'shotguns for HD'. And I'm sick of AK/EBR talk on the rifle forum. And I'm not interested in discussions of 'the right magnum pistol for bears'. I KNOW what's right for bears, already, BTDT.
I read Dave McC, sm, et al, because their interest and focus seems to match mine. (There are others, Okiecruffler among them.) Sporting use of firearms that may in some rare instances be reluctantly utilized for more immediate and serious purposes. Handing forward. Preserving and conserving the best of the best so that some of the adolescents who run around now with their Rambo'd tactical crap may some day, when (if) they grow up, have something of value to enjoy, appreciate, and pass on in their turn. Yeah, we're getting old, and like all old things, we are getting thin on the ground. All that's left is to keep the faith, and hope the kids grow up better than we are.

[Titan6]

Time to raise the ire of the old folk.

Although I don't post pictures of my guns, nor do I really care what you use for your HD needs what I use bares a close resemblance to what has been aforementioned described. So I will answer these questions to the best of my ability to the understanding that I do not speak for the legions of the black gun shot gun crowd (I appreciate and own all kinds of guns) I do have some understanding about what is going on here.

Certainly there is some truth to the keeping up with the Jone's mentality and the movies and TV adds push in that direction but these things were invented for a reason. And if these guns and devices did not work, people would not use them.

Then the bandwidth is flooded with pics of their HD gun, always a black 12ga pump or auto with attached light, laser, disco ball, GPS, anti-lock brakes and 5 inch LED screen. Then we hear about how their 27 round extended mag is loaded with depleted uranium laser guided heat seeking controled explosive slugs. Where do you people live?

I live in Iraq. The working shot gun is a black plain jane 870 with no extra toys. The synthetic stock stands up to the elements and pace of operations out here quite well and much better than wood. The shottie is rarely used as it is not the best weapon to have for most circumstances. It has it uses and places but does not need any extras because it is not carried regularly.

The working rifle would have looked cool hanging from a Seal team member 15 years ago with half a dozen toys on it but now all military rifles look like that so maybe you are behind the times a little.

What we are talking about is incremental improvements that add up to a huge improvement overall. Lights, lasers, IR illuminators, and other doo-dads actually do improve your chances quite a bit and in certain circumstances make you darn near invincible. If I can see the bad guy and have his chest painted with an IR laser that is sighted in and he has no idea that I am even there... well you don't really have to ask who is going to win that fight now do you?

My father once gave me some good advice about buying cars. He said never pay for all the add on bells and whistles, they'll just fail when you start relying on them. K.I.S.S. I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.

I imagine your father was quite a wise man. He likely lived in a time when even the best made electronic products were very unreliable. When a car could be expected to give 50,000 miles of service. When a battery might have lasted a few hours. When calling someone in Alaska was very expensive and difficult and calling someone in Iraq impossible. It was maybe questionable if one could drive across the country in a brand new car and make it without a breakdown.

Certainly many of the cheaper items that people buy and slap on their guns that are made in China will fail when needed. But reliable products that are properly serviced will give much valuable service under even harsh circumstances. So before you disdain something because it is new.. try it.

Edit:
I sumarize that while you do not need any of these items for HD use some of them do wonders to increase your chances of everything working out okay.

[ugaarguy]

Steve, you know I generally agree with you on keeping things simple. However, Titan6 has brought up a good point. Some of the new stuff works. Had a couple in the shop a few weeks ago looking for a HD shotgun. She was five foot and just a few inches, he was six foot and several inches. Anything that fit him was way too long for her. I know a taller person can use a shorter stocked gun, but he was really uncomfortable handling anything short stocked enough to fit her. Their budget was for one gun now, another eventually. They wanted a pump gun, so two single shots (an adult stock for him, and a youth for her) were out. I found a solution though. We had a Mossberg 500 with the factory equipped AR style six position collapsible/telescoping stock. Stock fully extended the gun fit him great. Stock one or two clicks short of all the way in fit her great. I showed them that they could lean it butt up with the stock set where she liked it, and that he could still grab it by the stock lever and let it slide to full out as he swung the gun up to mount it. The gun was all black and looked very tactical (if a gun can actually look tactical this one did). It had the tele stock. But it worked. The adjustable stock allowed it to fit each equally well.

Keep it simple, but don't ignore new things that will do the job better in some cases.

[Rob96]

I would say that you should let the mission dictate the tools. My HD shotgun is a Mossy 500 with 20" barrel and 7 shot mag tube and attached white light. That is it. Face it, when things go bump in the night, it is nice to hit the target with some light to make sure it's not your kid trying to sneak back into the house.

[Titan6]

Ugaarguy. Exactly right.

I put a simliar AR style six position collapsible/telescoping stock on my son's 10/22. I could show him how to shoot it easily and switch it over for him. As he grows, we pull it out a notch. I can't wait to see him this summer and figure out where he is. Since we will move him up into AR stlye rifles when I feel he is ready this was perfect for him to learn on.

Of course he has been begging me for a laser to go on the bottom rail:D ....

[Robert Hairless]

If I am in a situation in which I have to defend my life I have far too much pride to do it with anything less than the latest, most tasteful equipment. I would not want the villains to think less of me.

I don't think I could hold my head up if they said "The guy in the last house we invaded had a Vang Comp rig and the guy before that had a nifty Scattergun Technologies two tone outfit."

[PJR]

I too have burst out laughing at some of the crap people hang on their shotguns but over the years I have incorporated some improvements to my HD shotgun. Each modification however was done for a reason and had to prove it's utility.

It started as an plain 870P with an 18.5" bead sighted cylinder choked barrel and wood stock. Perfectly adequate for the task but lacking in some areas.

First to go was the stock. Too slippery and I sometimes pinched my little finger between the back the forend and receiver. The Hogue overmolded replacement is a definite improvement. Easier to hold tight, reduces recoil and no more pinched fingers.

After some patterning and practice I discovered that I didn't care for the bead sights or the cylinder choke. I live in a rural area and distances are longer and the need to shoot slugs is more frequent. The original barrel was replaced with a rifled-sighted 20" barrel with a IC choke. The sights on it were replaced with Firesights. I'm not sold entirely on them because they seem a little fragile but they are very good in low light conditions. I might replace them with tritiums some day.

A side-saddle was added. And the Remington safety was swapped out initially for a Wilson Combat and eventually for a Vang. I'm not sold on the Vang and may go back to the Wilson.

My 870 does double duty as a hunting gun so the light mount fits over the mag tube and is easily detachable compared to the full forend versions. There is no extended magazine because it makes barrel changes less convenient. The plastic mag follower was swapped out for a steel version and I added a sling.

Each change was made to respond to a need and was tested before being put into general use. There were other items tested and rejected for various reason particularly folding and PGO stocks. If I need a more compact gun I install my 14" barrel with rifle-sights.

Paul

[JohnBT]

A 14" barrel, I don't even have a 20" barrel. All of my shotguns have 28" barrels. They seem like good tools for the job.

I've been meaning to get a 20" barrel for the 870 and/or the 1100, but keep thinking it won't matter when I'm barricaded on the second floor or in the attic. Or when I move from the attic to the roof through the trapdoor and start jumping house to house until I decide it's safe to come down by way of one of the neighbor's porches (front or back.) And yes, I've jumped house to house many times over the past 26 years - it's barely 3 feet from brick parapet to parapet. Once or twice a year I do metal roof painting, flashing maintenance and gutter cleaning for the exercise and the view (and the savings.)

My 81-year-old neighbor certainly isn't going up there. :)

John

[browningguy]

I'll have to disagree with most of the posts here, and yes you seem cranky this morning. :)

I'm as old as most on the boards, but I do appreciate some of the technology. Sure I'd be happy without the extended mag tube on my Mossberg 500, if it was just for the house. But it's also good for three gun where more is better. I also have a light attached to mine, makes a huge difference shooting at night (you do practice shooting in the dark don't you?). And I replaced the crappy little gold bead with a fiber optic front sight, amazing how much better these old eyes work with the fiber optics. And yes, a 20" barrel is much better inside the house than a 28", I can't believe anyone would even argue the point. It's not that a 28" won't work, it's just not ideal for moving around a house, as I recall all of our shotguns were 18-20" barrels in the USN of the 70's.

A lot of you seem to think that just because someone modifies their weapon they are ninja wannabes with no skill, I think that is a bad general assumption. Sure there are a lot of folks that don't have a clue and want to look cool, but some people change from stock to meet a specific need.

[okiewita40]

I'll ride with Okiecruffler. You know us okies have to stick together. My HD guns are as simple as they get. A mossy 500 loaded with 00 buck and an old stevens 16ga with only #6 bird shot. Now I would like to get an 18" bbl for the mossy. I figure with the very short distances that I have in my home anyone that catches a load from either shotgun is going to be hurting in a bad way.

I don't need any lights on my SG because the yard light is bright enough I can see in the house just fine in the middle of the night. It could be a bit problematic for someone not knowing the lay out of the house or just coming in from outside though. Just my $.02 worth

[proud2deviate]

I'll agree with the OP. When I bought my shotgun, it came with a tacticool stock and surefire forend. I shouldered it once, grimaced in disgust, and put on a new proper walnut stock and forend. Much better.

I now have a couple of tacticool bits with an original retail value roughly equal to what I paid for the gun sitting on my bookshelf, gathering dust. I also have a shotgun that's actually worth a damn.

I kept the extended mag tube, though. I like the thought of being able to put a half-pound of lead downrange without a reload. Also added a Wilson Combat follower, mostly on account of I'm fond of green.


I hate the perpetuation of the idea that you can't used a shotgun for defense unless it's all loaded down with crap. It seems most guns nowadays have at least three rails, two lights, a laser, a collapsing stock, three reloads worth of shells (don't forget the dragon's breath and flechettes,) a bipod, a tripod in case the bipod breaks, Ghost Ring sights, a red dot scope, and enough sling webbing to mummify a gorilla.

Ugh. Does it still shoot?

[Oldnamvet]

I love it. I am getting more laughs out of this thread than I have in a long time.

[ZeSpectre]

Hey you can find everything you need for REAL traditional home defense at this link (http://piratemonkeysinc.com/pirate/shop.htm) :neener:

In all seriousness though, I think a shotgun with a laser is probably the deadliest close range weapon you can have. Place the dot and pull the trigger. Other than that I don't buy into much of the other "swiss army knife" stuff you can put on a gun.

[Rshooter]

This is fun....

I do not agree with Awerbuck because I think a light is a beacon on a shotgun, or any gun for that matter. There might be more than one of em.

Gadgets, naw. Gadgets are great for the military and I am glad to see that the boys, and girls now, are finally getting good equipment. I do not see the need for a AGOG or whatever it is on the top of an AR. Whenever some elitist sniffs at my A2 I tell him I can still hit at 500 yards, even with these old eyes.

Now you want to see me make all of the old timers mad let me make a remark about the price of doubles......someone may have a stroke. :eek: Just kidding guys.

[stownsend]

This is a great thread. I also agree with the OP. My father liked to keep it simple in about every area of life and I followed in his footsteps. About the only parts that I add to guns are scopes and slings, and that's about it. The more stuff on there, the more stuff to go wrong. To me there is something beautiful about a nice wood stocked, blued rifle or shotgun.
Oh, and on the cars, I can't agree more. I had to drive 1000 miles to find a truck with a manual transmission, manual locks and windows. They don't even make cars any more that aren't optioned up the wazzoo. Its just more to break and maintain.
I am only 32 and glad that I haven't gotten swallowed by the tacticool monster. There will always be people that want the latest and greatest and look for an advantage so they can justify it. When it all comes down to it, knowing how to handle your weapon is the most important, not how many tricked out features it has added to it.

[Squidward]

Okiecruffler,

America has become the land of excess.. For some reason adding bells and whistles, accessories and/or farkles has become the norm. The term, 'supersize me' has reached the gun world.

To each his own. Yep, you are getting older; and perhaps wiser!

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

I like my 870s & AR-15s with 2-point slings as the only accessories, but I don't think a coach shotgun has any advantage to a 870/500/590/1300.

[KBintheSLC]

OKIECRUFFLER,

I don't anticipate much failing on my 12ga pump. Even if the light and laser quit working, it will still paint the walls red. You see, I don't NEED those things to be effective, they are just nice to have.

But I do see your point. I know a lady that CC's a 2 shot Derringer in .22 magnum. She says she only needs one of those shots. I believe her.

but I don't think a coach shotgun has any advantage to a 870/500/590/1300.

It does have one advantage... in a survival situation. You can put bird shot in one and a slug in another. Feed the family with anything that comes your way. My 870 can only have one type of round chambered at a time. Lets not mention that a coach has less moving parts to rust and break. I love my 870, but the DB is still alive and well.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Betting 95% of HD situations can be taken care of with a plain ol 870 and a mindset of being PO-ed they're in your place instead of being scared and the willingness to pull the trigger on a perp if need be.

Not old here---but not exactly young either.

[Okiecruffler]

Well, if nothing else I guess the folks buying all those gadgets are helping the economy. And I don't doubt that they're handy if you play those 3 gun games. But 90% of the new shotgun post sound like they were posted by a 14 y/o with alot more time pushing the button on the remote than pulling the trigger under his belt. My point is, gadgets fail. Murphy lives and he's a funy camper (in fact, from the sound of it he's living in my dryer right now). If you can't take a bone stock 870, throw it to your shoulder and hit what needs hitting, all the doodads in the world ain't gonna make a tinker's dam. And most people would have been better served taking the money they spent on that dohickey and spending it on shells and range time.


Geesh, and I thought a nap would help. Nope, still cranky this morning.

[sm]

IMO/IME one has to think to the lowest level, and keep in mind where something will be used and whom all might have to use it.

Ug,
Family lost all in a natural disaster, except the CCW handguns. Big dad, petite wife and teenage daughter. Immediate need and I took the shotgun out of his hand, and handed him a a lever action in .357.
Wife handled it, then teenage daughter. They stepped out back, and shot it and this was the first Home Gun and the fact one CCW was a .357 was a bonus.

Warehouse setting, two ladies.
I set them up with Bounty Hunters with one barrel being 12 ga and the other being 45-70.
To go with Lever action 30-30's
Now the "office" looks over the warehouse. Pallets, drums and typical warehouse needs.
Steel plates and brick as part of the cover up there , that will keep 30-06 and 12 ga slugs at bay.

You ain't lived until you let loose with a Bounty Hunter inside a Warehouse, to test this in the setting it will be used in. *Fun!*

1100 in .410 with slugs is used by one older lady with physical limits.
She used to shoot skeet and bird hunt back in the day, I mean the old gal can flat shoot this .410!

Here is something that gets me into trouble, and that is keeping things real simple, reliable, and worst case.

I grew up with Vets from previous Word Wars, Korea and such. Some had amputations, some lost an eye, others had limits due to scars, burns and all.

One has to have a gun they can shoot if they get down. - Period.

Vietnam hit, and again all the lessons from the Vets, applied to 'Nam Vets, and the same damn things apply to current Vets from current conflicts.

Add, We are a aging society, just the way it is with ages today.

Yes I know a shotgun, long gun, rifle is best - I also know a lot about detached retinas, neck, back, shoulder, hand, wrist and other surgeries.
I know about Osteo so back, a person steps out of bed and breaks a foot.

Doctor's Orders /Physical Therapist's Order of NO Recoil is serious!

Preacherman is one that has been in War, has a huge amount of hours of training, still with his back surgeries, he could not use anything but a .22, as Doc's orders and he has enough common sense to know more permanent damage will occur.


One fella, almost 30, slipped on his icy porch, broke both hands, and arms, and busted one knee, could not even feed himself. Forget guns, he could not even go to the bathroom.
One second 6'2" and stropping, next he is down.

He had no guns his wife or kid could use, none. This was a wake up call in many areas.
Not only for him, also for the wife and daughter that they too needed to get into gear - as husband/daddy was not always going to be able to protect them.

I can get someone up to speed fast with a 20 ga single shot, as I have for so many years.
That was the first gun , and the second was a Model 10 until I and mine could get the gals better prepared and lessons given.

Reality hits fast, and in the blink of an eye, simple has to be the answer!

[Ash]

I frankly have nothing attached to my shotguns.

Ash

[foghornl]

My HomeLand Security shotgun is a Maverick 88, darn near from-the-factory-box-stock. I did replace the 28" Mod Choke barrel with the 18-1/2" Cylinder bore, and added one of those butt-cuffs that holds 5 slugs.

Mrs. Foggy is much happier now, since I don't poke extra holes in the walls with that 28" barrel.....Long story about nuthin', except it finished with some dire and not so veiled threats about some gettin' whomped upside the head with that long barrel should another 12-Ga muzzle-sized ding appear.

[Robert Hairless]

If you can't take a bone stock 870, throw it to your shoulder and hit what needs hitting, all the doodads in the world ain't gonna make a tinker's dam. And most people would have been better served taking the money they spent on that dohickey and spending it on shells and range time.

But to be fair (not always in the spirit of these conversations), there's no necessary contradiction between the two.

I think it's just as much a mistake to interpret doodads (such as an extended magazine tube, sidesaddle, synthetic stock, and light) as meaning that the owner hasn't spent the time on shells and range time. Or that he or she can't take a bone stock 870 and hit with it.

I haven't seen Louis Awerbuck's favorite Old Betsy but I have benefitted from his showing me how and why the LED Surefire on his belt beat the hell out of the incandescent Surefire in my left hip pocket. Took a second, he was right, and I immediately switched technologies. I don't see Louis as a Luddite. Neither are Massad Ayoob, Randy Cain, or others as far as I can tell. Their point, I think, is that technology doesn't substitute for skill. That's a good point, and if it's your point too I'll ride with it comfortably and enjoy the ride.

When I see a grizzled old stranger show up at the range with a well used stock 870 my immediate reactions are different from when I see a younger stranger show up with a shiny new Scattergun Technologies version. From there on, though, I look to see whether they hit. I have seen grizzled old guys with old 870s who couldn't hit the side of a barn from inside. I've also seen some Wilson guys who could. Mostly, though, I don't see a lot of good defensive shotgun work from anyone on the ranges I inhabit. What I usually see is people standing still, blasting away at paper targets that also are standing still. The guns don't seem to make any difference and one is about as good for the purpose as another.

If you're saying that a tricked out shotgun can't substitute for years of hard time developing one's abilities, count me in on that. But I don't agree that a Surefire forend is the surefire sign of an incompetent and that the modifications pile up as increasing indications of incompetence.

I have some prejudices too but I know what they are and often why they are. Pistol-grip-only shotguns scare the hell out of me: when a young stranger shows up with one at the range I go offline and take a break, every time. Flashlights clamped to the barrel or magazine tube send me offline too: invariably the guy is going to spend time refastening that thing between shots, and often the muzzle waves around while he's doing it, and I have a hard time getting any work done while I'm shivering in fear. Anyone who says "Oh darn" or the equivalent after every few shots gets me going backwards fast, and I pack up to leave when I hear words that sound like "The ____ fell off again!" or "I wonder what this does." Show up with a bayonet on a shotgun and watch me throw my stuff into the trunk of my car and make a fast dash for the highway. Prejudices based on years of living, with a burning desire to remain so.

It's a strange feeling not being the crankiest guy in a discussion. :)

[KBintheSLC]

Hairless makes some good points. Just because you have a light on your 870 does not mean that you are trying to compensate for lack of competence (or lack of genitalia for that matter).
Come to think of it, I never practice with my mounted light or my laser... even when I shoot at night. Therefore, if I ever do need to use them, they will come as an added bonus, not a crutch that I count on.

[BryanP]

I have to admit that my HD shotgun is indeed black. When I was looking for one I came across pretty good deal on a Mossberg 590A1. That said, if I had found a smoking deal on a coach gun I might have that in the closet instead.

In short: whatever works for you. If what you can afford and/or what you're comfortable with is a single shot break action, then that's what you should use. If you want the Saiga 12 great.

[Okiecruffler]

I'm not saying that everyone who has a decked out SG is a closet ninja (just most of them). Ands I'll stand behind this statement. The best, and I mean BEST, shotgunner out there would benefit more by spending the money on range time over a laser.

[KBintheSLC]

The best, and I mean BEST, shotgunner out there would benefit more by spending the money on range time over a laser.

How do you know I cannot afford to do both? Also, what is this obsession with being "The best, and I mean BEST".

What are you compensating for?

We learned from the recent Super Bowl that "The Best" don't always win.

I'm not saying that everyone who has a decked out SG is a closet ninja (just most of them).

Since when does putting a light on a gun constitute "decked out". You seem to have some emotional issues that are subconsciously being redirected as hatred towards guns with lights. Tell me about your mother. ;)

[KBintheSLC]

Last comment, then I'll shut up.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE 'EM... DON'T USE 'EM.

[JohnBT]

"you do practice shooting in the dark don't you?). "

Not much, there's no dark in my neighborhood or my house between the front and back streetlights, 7-11 lights a half-block away, the parking lots lights on the other side of the alley and whatever lights the neighbors have lit up on their rowhouses.

I don't even turn a light on to wander around my house in the middle of the night. I can have all the light I want in the bedroom by opening one blind. I keep the bedroom dark and the hall/stairs well lit.

"it's just not ideal for moving around a house"

I don't want to move around. I just want to sit out of the way, behind cover, with a clear view of the top of the single flight of stairs. An extra 8 or 10 inches on my 2 second-floor shotguns isn't going to matter. Won't matter much if I need to haul one through the trapdoor in the hall closet to get to the attic to access the roof. I can get 8' stepladders up there and I'm 6', so a 50-odd-inch shotgun is a breeze. The attic has a 15' ceiling and trapdoor to the roof is a stepout.

FWIW, I'm doing a test as we speak and it will continue into the summer. I have an old cooler with some bagged ammo in the attic. I'll take it to the range long about August and see how it does.

John

[sm]

you do practice shooting in the dark don't you?

Not like I used to, still yes.
Oh I should mention, back in the day before lasers, lights and all the new offerings, we were doing lessons to replicate real world events.

Not only did I see a mentor shoot with a shotgun in low/no light a firebomb heading for a porch, I would later shoot one too.

I have been in the dark, when a disaster struck, and no 911, no cell phones, and evil is coming in , shooting, to scare off those so they could steal and loot.

My 20 bore slugs turned evil away, and I was young, either still in elementary school or just started Jr High (forget).

See, the deal is, history shows folks survived with simple guns they were one with.

WE, again w-a-y before 3 gun, and other things, really did have folks bring whatever they had, be it a single shot shotgun, lever action, hardware store 32 cal pistol - whatever, and actually set up situations and run through.
them.

From kids to grandparents. Situations that had happened, or could happen.

Escaped convicts from a jail down the way, or chain gang having some get loose, or pack of rabid dogs getting onto property in the evening with a cookout, hot dawg roast with a bonfire - whatever.

Various ways we signaled, and we come running to each others aid, and if that meant dark , in the bed of a moving truck, shooting threats, we did it.

Kids, running the bolts on .22 rifles at night to provide hits and cover fire to allow someone to get where they needed.

Don't tell me a six year old cannot run a bolt so an adult can get to where they need to be, at night - we taught kids this.

Mindset, SKill sets, and way before a lot of what is offered today, came to be.

FWIW they did not have lasers, or lights for handguns, when I was a kid and in the low/dark stopped 3 adults that busted down the front door and tripped trigger to stop that threat to me, and my sibs.

I used a .22 revolver, and my hits went where they were supposed to go!
I first shot that pistol at age 3.

Folks are welcome to do as they please, as Awerbuck says, I ain't gonna be at your gunfight.

None you folks were around when I had incoming...

Re: 28" barrels. I know better,I;ll just mention one shotgun - like the one I have put 300,000 rds through , and this 300k round count gun still works, and it has been in serious situations, and has been the go-to shotgun.

It has also been in a helluva lot of night shoot offs, too.
Including hitting a hand thrown live pigeon near dark worth $2,000.

I do not do AR stocks, nor lasers, as I have too many years, and know about moving targets, and I want to be pointing, not aiming when the firebomb or whatever is tossed my way.
I want to be mobile when in the back of a truck doing 40 mph and making hits too...

[Robert Hairless]

I'm not saying that everyone who has a decked out SG is a closet ninja (just most of them). Ands I'll stand behind this statement. The best, and I mean BEST, shotgunner out there would benefit more by spending the money on range time over a laser.

I'm not picking on you, OC, and I don't have a laser on any of my shotguns but I'm also not the best shotgunner out there. I'm everyone else's admiring audience, which makes me very popular and also gives me the opportunity to tell bad guys "Don't worry about me. I'm a lousy shot. Those are the guys you need to take out."

If you can't shoot, and you can't run, you need to be strategic. :)

[sm]

If you can't shoot, and you can't run, you need to be strategic.

Wise words worth being read again!

Physically limited folks, those expectant moms, the person at home after hip surgery,...

11 pound shotgun is difficult to move with , one better suited with less bolted on works better.

Like a double barrel, or 1100 in 20 ga, or 1400 in 20 ga, or ...

I hope some never get down, as their eyes will be opened.

[dewidmt]

All my guns are bone stock...and I do mean all of them. I shoot 3 gun with them just the way they are. The only thing I ever change are the springs, i.e. recoil, mag tube, magazine, firing pin, etc. I do not and never will hang lights and gadgets on them. I have a Surefire light and know how to use it with handguns and long guns. HD is an 870, plain and simple. If you wanna play with gadgets, more power to you, but some of us simply don't like them.....just my opinion, and everybody has a right to one of those.

[Okiecruffler]

If you're not striving to be the best, what's the point? If and when TSHTF, do you wanna come in second?

My biggest problem with guns with lights has to do with the fact that if you're using the light to identify a target, you've already made it a target.

If you can afford to spend plenty of range time and bolt crap on your gun, good for you. But if you're bolting a light or laser on there because you're having trouble hitting, you're missing more than the point.

Case in point, tho it doesn't involve SG's with doodads or without. Just the other day I was shooting beside a fellow who had a nice looking 300 wthby mag with a 6-24X target scope. When I first saw him I figured "Guy must know what he's doing." I was wrong. Turns out he missed a deer this year with his 30-30 and a 4X scope and he didn't want t it to happen again. I asked how far away the deer was, he states, "Don't know, wasn't that far." Rather than work on the fact that he can't judge distance or his mediocre shooting skills, he upgrades equipment. I believe too many people do the same thing. "I can only hit one out of three shots, logical solution I need more shots."
I don't what other ranges are like, but I shoot at 3 ranges locally. 9 times out of 10 the guy who shows up all tackticool will shoot 3 inch groups at 50 yrds from the bench with his AR15, can't keep a load of buckshot inside the black at 10 yrds and somehow manages to catch his thumb in the slide of his glock.

[CZguy]

I don't what other ranges are like, but I shoot at 3 ranges locally. 9 times out of 10 the guy who shows up all tackticool will shoot 3 inch groups at 50 yrds from the bench with his AR15, can't keep a load of buckshot inside the black at 10 yrds and somehow manages to catch his thumb in the slide of his glock.

I'm glad you shared that.

I thought I was the only one seeing that.

[browningguy]

As I already mentioned you need to forget the idea that guys with "gadgets" can't shoot. And I'm also older than a lot of you, so I remember what shooting was like in the 60's.

We're not allowed to practice on bad guys down here in Texas (in spite of what you might have heard), but we are allowed to hunt pigs at night. My rounds to pigs ratio is excellent with a 105 lumen light mounted on the .50 Beowulf, not so good without a light. We usually night hunt with a full moon, but trying to hit a running pig at 50 yards in the dark is tough for me. A lot easier with the light. It's not exactly the same as bad guys, but I can't come up with any better practice, and I get fresh bacon.

Lights and lasers are not gadgets, although I personally have never met anyone with a laser on a shotgun. I, and plenty of the guys I shoot with, do have a laser gripped pistol, definately not a gadget, unless shooting faster and more accurately is what gadgets do. There are so many real world advantages to lights and lasers I can't even believe people are still arguing about it. As an example they don't allow these in IDPA (which I do shoot) because THEY GIVE THE USER AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. And that's exactly what I want in an altercation, every advantage I can get. While lasers are of no advantage to me at 2-3 yards, at 10 and 20 yards I am significantly faster on follow up shots and on head shots. I guess if you guys are all grandmaster IPSC shooters it probably won't help you at all.

Who cares what they used 100 years ago, or 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago. I started shooting junior NRA competition in 1963, do you think anyone is competitive with that technology today? Learn to use the available tools and you'll be better off. Sure your battery might die one day, but does that keep you from driving a car? There are just as many guys with a plain old coach gun that can't shoot as there are with a Scattergun or Wilson. After all, many of the guys with the Wilsons happen to have enough money to buy good quality ammo and practice .

I know many of you don't think pig hunting, or shooting the games is real world. But what regular practice do most people have access too that's better. I'm a firm believer that if you can't do it on the range, you won't majically be able to do it when it counts.

[plateshooter]

Hey Browningguy, I'm an older guy too. Yours is the best post I have read in a long time. I agree with all you have said, I just couldn't word it as well as you.
My favorite quote is " You don't grow old, you get old when you stop growing"

[Dave McCracken]

Posit a dangerous situation.

Add sm, Lee, PJR, Yr Humble Scrivener, or any other shotgunner who has trained properly and/or glimpsed the Proverbial Pachyderm.

Add one reliable shotgun holding at least 2 shots of good quality buck with more nearby. It can be a 311, 97,12,37,870, 500,SX1, 1100, or whatever. Total modifications consist of fitting the stock and removing the mag plug(if applicable).

And wear marks.

Note that the situation is now dangerous only to the werewolves.

IOW, we OWN this.

No F/O sights, lazers or addons needed. The shotgun does not need to passed through the portals of Vangland or been inscribed with runes of dread by the wizards of Wilson.

It just needs to have been shot.

Lots.

[WildeKurt]

I myself am too cheap to add a bunch of crap to a gun. I shoot IPSC with a bone stock revolver where everyone else seems to show up with the latest wizbang. Hell, some of the guns look like they came off a Star Wars set.

Anyway, the money is better spent at the range. Practice is good. Good practice is better.

Did I mention I'm a wippersnapper?

[sm]

Tornadoes Hit tonight

Now one of my irks, is folks learning with a crutch.
NO.
If one learns with a crutch, and loses that crutch, they will fall down! Mentors.

I get angry about new folks learning to shoot with AR stocks and gadgets!

Learn the correct basic fundamentals of gun fit, pattern boards and everything, then , if your situation suggests, use accessories.

Dead Serious and I admit being a bit ticked.
History repeats itself and I know about having simple guns, for serious situations, and having these handy.

Too many times folks have come to the aid of neighbors, when Tornados hit, and more than once gun were lost in a tornado.

Some of my bunch have those they care about in areas hit tonight.
WE had simple shotguns and other equipment done up for them.

Tonight, with 18 wheelers and other vehicles being thrown into bean fields...

One of them single shot 20 ga shotguns and Used Model 10s with 158 gr LRN is being used by a neighbor of one we know.

His gun safe is gone! His shotgun with light, his AR, all his stuff is nowhere to be seen!

He and these others have to get through the night, and with simple tools by golly they will.
Mag-lites, Red Coleman lanterns, $2 plastic flashlights, Disposable Garrity lights, Single shot shot guns, Revolvers....

Do not LEARN on a frigging crutch! This has always pissed me and mine off.

Learn to shoot a frigging shotgun like you are supposed to, Learn to shoot a pistol , rifle like you are supposed to.

That way when your guns are gone due to tornado, fire, flood, with lasers, lights , night sights and all, you can still use a damn gun!

This fella is a nice fella, and real damn appreciative he was raised right, and learned to shoot right.
I assure you he is NOT talking down a single shot shotgun with only a bead or a Used Model 10 with LRN .

Screw all this gear BS! Some of us have BTDT and while good gear is fine and dandy, for some spending $100 on one Surefire is not as wise as using that $100 for another light and other gear.

$1200 for a shotgun? Fine, still for some $1200 buys a shotgun and other needed gear.

Oh yeah, you look at your wife, kids, tornado damage and really have need for stuff and then tell me how damn nice that $1200 shotgun feels at a time like that.

I've seen it more than once, tonight others are finding out the hard way.

Damn Internet, is a faster means of communication with others and it really pisses me off at times Armchair BS-ers get to post.

Screw 'em, feed 'em fish heads and rice.

I assure you, if I have to run into harm's way tonight, which I might, I am running whatever is tossed to me and I know I can do what needs doing as I have done it before.

Most likely a Win SX1, as I know that gun will run in all sorts of weather, and I can run it one handed. This one with slugs thru the factory slug barrel.
I have only put 300,000 thru a SX1 I have.

Sidearm will be a Gov't Model of 1911 with Gold bead front sight.
Model 10 or 19 for backup again with gold bead front sight.
I do not wear silly ass camo, as me an mine never owned any, still don't.
I don't do silly ass TEEM SEEL attire.
I know how to blend in, and move in the dark and black shows up too well in the dark.

One more thing, I and mine ran guns and supplies during Katrina....
Simple guns, simple ammo, and these worked.

You folks do what you want, I may be wrong, but I do have my convictions.

[Okiecruffler]

OKay, I went back over all my posts just to make sure. I never said a good shooter can't use all those gadgets, just that too many people are relying on them to make up for P-poor skills. And those are the same people who will pipe up to tell folks with less than science fiction guns that their choice isn't adaquate. They back this up with quotes from umpteen internet articles. Might as well use proof from the latest Terminator movie.

[Okiecruffler]

Steve, my thoughts are with you and yours. Got a couple of buddies I'm trying to get in touch with in the same area. Old school boys, no doubt they're alright as well as those with them.

[Titan6]

I never said a good shooter can't use all those gadgets, just that too many people are relying on them to make up for P-poor skills.

If they are than they will fail at the appropriate time and be faced with the results of that. I think serious shooters will learn to shoot and non-serious shooters will sell their shotgun to the pawn shop when the time is right.

Not practicing low light level shooting is foolish. To assume you will never have to defend yourself in the dark is the same assuming that you will never have to defend yourself. If in your entire life the light switch has turned lights on every time you have switched it than I wonder where you live?

[MCgunner]

I'm armed with a coach gun and don't feel I need 500 rounds from a drum magazine to kill an intruder. I'm with ya! The tacticool guys think I have a death wish, but really, I can hit what I point at and in low light, I find a rib/bead and the natural point of my hunting shotguns superior to open sights. I've killed a LOT of teal just after shooting time, 30 minutes before sun up on a cloudy morning when you can't see your watch, yet, without the flash light. You think a BG is going to stand a chance? He ain't even flying! This sort of low light practice is about the best confidence builder you can get! Go shoot your paper with your ghost ring sighted 870 and your tacticool flashlight and delude yourself that you can handle the gun well enough, instinctive enough, for that quick low light shot.

KISS is indeed a proven principle. :D I'll add I really prefer to use a weapon I have actually KILLED something with. I have more confidence in the gun. I hunt with that side by side, I have drawn blood with it. It is as natural as my arm when pointing. You say "hunting isn't combat, the birds ain't shootin' back." To this I say, shooting paper isn't combat and the paper ain't shootin' back and, add to this the ease at which the paper is to hit! It ain't even decent marksmanship practice! Go out and kill something. Get bloody. Learn to hit a bird on the wing. You'll lose some of that tacticool crap when you figure out it just gets in the way and ruins the natural point of the gun.

My heart goes out for the tornado victims. We don't get a lot of 'em down here except with a hurricane. Prayers are out for all those suffering in the aftermath.

[CZguy]

KISS is indeed a proven principle. I'll add I really prefer to use a weapon I have actually KILLED something with. I have more confidence in the gun. I hunt with that side by side, I have drawn blood with it. It is as natural as my arm when pointing.

Sort of reminds me of when as a young teenager, I could hit a running rabbit with my single shot .22. As I got older I saved up and bought a semi auto .22(this was tacticool back then) the first rabbit I shot at, I had seven near misses rather than one hit. :D

I learned something from that experience. ;)

No matter how many gee whiz futuristic doo dads you have on a gun, it just can't compare with a firearm that fits you and you have shot to the point where it's just an extension of your body.

[plumberroy]

unless you are weathy or famous a home intruder is not going to be a paramilitary type they are going to be some one looking for money to buy their next fix or a coward looking for an easy target, unarmed I am not an easy target.I know my house like the back of my hand I have basic pump guns but don't feel under gunned with a single shot shotgun if there are 2 intruders in your home do you really think that when bad guy #1 head explodes bad guy #2 is going to take time to see if you are armed with a tacticool gun or a single shot to decide weather to fight or run?.
Roy
Disclaimer : this is the opinion of a middle aged hillbilly plumber that has been down the road a time or two and are based on my personal knowledge and experiences offered to hopefully help you since we live in a free country you have the right to have a different opinion, Some one asked the question
I am just trying to help

[Blue02Formula]

You got me all wrong, I had a flashlight I liked and I mounted a 12ga. to it.

[Candiru]

Tacticality is a pet peeve of mine when not born of actual exigent need. I don't begrudge our soldiers or marines a single piece of gear because if they didn't gain some advantage from it, they wouldn't tolerate it hanging off their rifles. The question then becomes whether the rest of us benefit from similar accoutrements.

In general, I'm happy letting others decide for themselves. The proliferation of parts and aftermarket accessories lets everyone custom-tune a firearm for his or her own tastes, whether for ergonomics (new stocks or grips), usability (extended controls), shootability (different sights), durability (polymer or fiberglass stocks), flexibility (adjustable stocks for different users or layers of clothing), or just plain aesthetics. Everyone has different needs and tastes, and though it may be fun to tease people about their plastic pistols or aluminum poodle-shooters, at the end of the day it's their choice to make and they don't need to justify it on that basis.

However, the tactical crowd do need some justification when they start flinging accusations of insufficiency at "non-tactical" firearms. The general argument put forth is that the newer or augmented solutions are better and therefore offer an advantage over the older alternative. Assuming this is, in fact, the case (which is itself debatable), the superiority of one system has no relevance to how effective the less-tactical alternatives are. Sure, you could do it better, but if the way it's done now works fine, there is no advantage in upgrading.

But that's not how it works. Too often, someone's perceived best is set as the bar and everything short of it is summarily characterized as insufficient. Arguments advanced in defense of this position range from fair assessments that aren't necessarily applicable, to the wildest flights of juvenile fantasy. Almost inevitably, the arguments are put forth with astonishing amounts of fervor and bluster. It's as if the tactical crowd feel defensive about their choices or something.

To be fair, having one's firearms choices questioned put everyone on the defensive. But the gadget-oriented have another reason to be defensive: Whether they believe it to be the case or not, they're treating equipment and practice as fungible.

Every piece of gear purchased comes with the implicit assumption that this single piece of equipment will provide more of a boon than the same amount of money spent on practice ammo. Will a vertical foregrip costing $60 make someone a better shooter than 180 rounds' worth of practice? (I'm using .223 as the hypothetical ammo here, and further assuming that the expensive brass-cased stuff is being used.) How about a reflex sight costing $350--does it instantly grant the equivalent boost to skill that 1,000 rounds of practice would confer? The argument goes that one can buy both the gear and practice ammo, but this argument is patently untrue: You can't spend the same money twice. The tradeoff must always be made. So if a piece of gear doesn't give someone an edge, he's just wasted money that could have been put toward practice. Admitting that someone can do well without the gear has negative implications for his own judgement and skill; hence, the defensiveness.

The fact of the matter is that everything above a minimalist firearm is a crutch. It can be a useful or even necessary crutch (e.g. scopes for precision rifles, IR lasers for night-vision goggles, or foregrips for full-auto), but it's still only augmentation for the basics. Equipment breaks, runs out of batteries, or is left behind, but the basics go with one from firearm to firearm. So, to me, training myself to the minimum equipment I can expect to use is the best investment. I might not do as well as someone with the latest high-speed, low-drag NinjaGear (tm), but what I can do comes from me, not my gear.

[dasanii19]

I agree with you Okie!!!

I keep it simple..

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/dasanii19/edit1.jpg

[subierex]

I'm not that old (41), but I tend to agree with your sentiments. I like K.I.S.S. whether it be for cars, guns, or just a general mission statement for my life. :)

[41magsnub]

I agree with KISS also. My SHTF guns are bone stock with very little to possibly go wrong. I have two cars, one is the computerized monster of a recent Toyota, the other is an older American truck. Guess which one I would take if I had to bug out?

[boots]

i have owned 6 shotguns in my lifetime...first shotgun was a whinchester 1300 defender...bought it at a gunshop...worked perfectly and never malfunctioned once...then i discovered internet forums...

i read how winchesters were fragile and how the 870 was the way to go...i sold my 1300 and got a 870 express hd model...870 had problems ejecting spent shells and had problems feeding shells from the magazine tube...sold that one and got a marine magnum...marine magnum worked perfectly, but i still don't trust it because of the problem i had with the 870 express...for reasons unknown, i bought another 870 express and a 870 police magnum...the express model worked fine, so i gave it to my brother for hd...works to this day...the police magnum had a problem releasing shells from the mag tube..same problem as my first 870 express...my confidence in 870's were shot...and the police mag had not even been fired once!!!

i decided that the 870 was not for me..too many issues...i bought a ttn 1878 double...works perfectly...only two shots, but i know each barrel will fire when they need to...

lesson i learned was that i should use what works for me...internet is great for gathering info, but you need to test your own guns and trust should be earned from experience...

i still wish i had my winchester, and to hell with these remingtons...i know alot of people swear by the 870, but not me...

now i feel safest with an antiquated old double...go figure...when funds allow, i will get one for my brother also...

don't know why i posted this, but...

[kimberfan]

my HD shotgun is stock except for my shell holder and its gonna get a sling soon otherwise maybe a light anything else is just stupid.

[Todd A]

To each his own.

Way back when I first started shooting rifles,pistols and shotguns at the age of eight. I never thought that now,at almost 39, I'd have become a mall ninja with my side saddle equipped ,folding stocked, black 500A :eek: :scrutiny:

[MCgunner]

Hey, Boots, 870s don't do much for me, either, but they used to work well. Remington has been in a slump of late, though, saddens me. But, it's true, and the express models are the cheap ones, less attention to detail and rough finish.

I love the old Winchesters mainly because they do work better for me and they FIT me so danged well right out of the box. I have a 1400 auto and my son-in-law to be has a couple of 1300s I'd like to talk him out of. :D That 1400, though, is just a sweet shootin' machine. I don't really care for cross bolt safeties, but I put up with it on that gun.

Yeah, you read the boards and the only shotgun worth owning is a Remington. :rolleyes: Well, I'm not a Koolaid drinker and have shot other shotguns. I have preferences and they ain't spelled 870.

[boots]

amen brother...for being a peice of junk, the 1300 was one sweet shooter...

not one single problem...

[CZguy]

Way back when I first started shooting rifles,pistols and shotguns at the age of eight. I never thought that now,at almost 39, I'd have become a mall ninja with my side saddle equipped ,folding stocked, black 500A

They say that the first step to recovery is to admit that you have a problem. :D :D

[browningguy]

[QUOTE]No F/O sights, lazers or addons needed. The shotgun does not need to passed through the portals of Vangland or been inscribed with runes of dread by the wizards of Wilson.[QUOTE]

No, it doesn't. But it certainly won't hurt it to have been there.

I don't think anyone on this board ever said you "needed" this equipment. I think the discussions get out of hand because some people think anyone with modern gear must be a Ninja. I don't belittle anyone who wants to use their single shot shotgun as a HD weapon, good luck to them. Everyone can have an opinion, but just because you might prefer older and simpler equipment does not mean you know anything more than me.

Here's a pic of Browningguy the Ninja:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/axis1.jpg

Good gracious, he's wearing camo, must be a ninja. Well, I was stalking on a friends ranch, he also wears camo when hunting so it seemed ok at the time. And you'll note the entrance wound from leaning against a tree at about 140 yards.

Here's one of Browningguys Ninja guns, look out, it has a 6 position stock and a scope, Browningguy must be a Ninja.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/Rifles/DPMS223-1.jpg

I'm sure there is no obvious reason, like Mrs. Browningguy also shoots this rifle and likes a 1.5" shorter LOP. Nah, couldn't be anything like making sure the gun fits multiple users, must be a Ninja.

So you carry your model 10 and H&R single shot shotgun, I'll carry my Mossy 500 with extended mag tube and light, or an AR with optics/free float tube/tuned trigger, and one or two of my BHP's and we'll both be happy.

I almost forgot, here's one of my Ninja BHP's with a fiber optic front sight (and a tuned trigger). I know, it's very Ninja, but my splits went down by a tenth so it's staying.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/Pistols/browningfrontsight.jpg

[dasanii19]

Browningguy, thats not bad... It's only when you go overbored...

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/dasanii19/redneck_swiss_army_gun.jpg

[41magsnub]

I don't think anyone on this board ever said you "needed" this equipment. I think the discussions get out of hand because some people think anyone with modern gear must be a Ninja. I don't belittle anyone who wants to use their single shot shotgun as a HD weapon, good luck to them. Everyone can have an opinion, but just because you might prefer older and simpler equipment does not mean you know anything more than me.

You are getting a little over defensive there sparky, calm down.. this thread is not directed at you as much as you keep making it that way. The point that started this whole thing and is still valid is that when folks come on this board and ask about what shotgun to get for HD, invariably some jackass sends them towards some camo painted pistol gripped "tactical" conglomeration without mention of needed to focus on learning to shoot first. You want to know why the jackass does that? Because they bought all that stuff, have no idea what they are doing, and feel the need to validate their fancy gun that they can't shoot.

On top of that (and this is a truism with shooting, golf, and any other sport) is folks try to buy experience. If a person can't hit the broad side of a barn with a bone stock pump gun or coach gun or whatever what makes them think adding lasers, lights, adjustable stocks, and night vision is going to make it any better? Using golf as the example, if a person is new at golf are the hyper expensive golf clubs that promise an extra 25 yards per hit going to make a lick of difference? That is the point.

If a person knows how to shoot and gets genuine benefit from all the tacticool stuff then more power to them. It is not to my taste and I'll say that if asked, but if it makes them happy then what do I matter. However, the average person buying all the crap is not in that category and certain assumptions are made about the person who has all that stuff and you know what? The assumptions are right more often than they are wrong.

[Okiecruffler]

Okay BrowningGuy, you win. You've convinced me. You've proven you're a ninja.:neener::D

[sm]

browningguy,
Can't fool me, I know a curmudgeon when I see one, and that really nice picture is one of a curmudgeon!

I know a fellow Bifocal Weaver-ish Stance pistol shooter when I see one too!

*grin*

Steve

[Clean97GTI]

I suppose I spent too much time around my retired LAPD grandfather who still swears cops should only carry a 6 shot revolver.
My home defense gun is the 12ga my dad used to get quail and chukar. All blued steel, long barrel and full wood stock. Why mess with a good thing?

[browningguy]

I know a fellow Bifocal Weaver-ish Stance pistol shooter when I see one too!

I have to plead guilty to that statement :) . In fact, to keep from going to trifocals I got a spare set of glasses set up just for working on the computer.

Guys, I know it's not about me and I honestly wouldn't care if it was, I'm just trying to show that the idea that anyone using modern technology is a ninja wannabe is wrong. There are lots of older people that take advantage of technology that helps them. Back in the 70's I used to shoot bullseye pistol at Little Creek Amphib. Base, I was never very good mind you, but by going to red dots I've at least been able to keep my scores the same as I age. And my sporting clays guns have worn fiber optic sights since they became available.

[sm]

browningguy,
Yeah the young whippersnappers just don't know how that Bifocal Weaver-ish Stance is a zen thing allowing us to hit.
Or is that "gee I hope so?" *snicker*

You were raised right, learning with a iron sighted .22 rifle, how to properly shoot a shotgun with correct basic fundamentals, pistols with iron sights- without a crutch.

Time catches up, and eyes don't do what they once could, just the way the human anatomy and physiology is made up.
Add, injury, disease, just inheriting bad genes play a part as well.

We've had kids, legally blind if you will, and they have a right to learn to shoot as well.
Target is done so they can better see it, and glass or dot allows them to shoot that .22 rifle.
Oh how they would like to shoot a iron sighted .22 single shot, and they do with help, just they don't have the eyes, and knocking over a tin can, or busting a balloon assists with self esteem and having fun!

Shotguns, these same kids, legally blind, will use primer only hulls after the correct basics of stance, foot position, and everything.
Primer only hulls add the noise and "bang" - and we get there.

Big balloon, coached along and they pop it with a light load.
Get an adult, parent, and these kids are sharing all about the correct basics and safety and ...
Adults legally blind have done shotguns this way too.

Can't died for these kids and adults , they have a right to all this, and a garden hose is a great tool to assist with how a shotgun pattern works, pattern boards, and moving targets.

Just like the blind that play golf, shoot archery and even hunt with a coach, these folks - have a right.

We have taken kids out to dove hunt, and duck hunt. I mean there is lot more to hunting, than felling game.
The morning breakfast, or getting do-nuts and hot chocolate, coffee, the smell of dawgs , dirt roads, dust, cold and wet...everything.

Kids, have a sense of humor.
These kinds of kids just want to be accepted like other kids.

Miss a dove and the legally blind kid, listening and hearing what all going on - which kids like as dove hunting means everyone is yelling and razzing one another - they don't have to be quiet.

"Yeah I saw you raise your head..."
"Blind kid coulda hit that sucker..."
"Wanna borrow my glasses..."
"Who has duct tape, put my cane on his shotgun..."


I don't believe in learning with a crutch.
I do not appreciate those being disrespectful to those in Military, or LEO, carrying on as they do.

[SuperNaut]

What qualifies as a tacticool doodad, and how many is too many? Seriously. Is it only one additional doodad or two that puts it over the top?

I don't own one single rail-mount laser, light, red-dot, acog, grip, bottle-opener, doohickey, or whatever. But I do own an 870 with a synthetic stock and extended tube, does that make it tacticool? Apparently to some, if it isn't a wood stock SxS, it's tacticool.:rolleyes:

Do people truly not see the utility in an ammo side saddle? I don't have one (yet), but they sure makes sense.

How many of you guys have novak-style combat sights on your handgun? Raise your hands all you tacticool mall ninjas. :D C'mon, don't be shy, up-up-up...

[Rampant_Colt]

my shotty is teh l33t whiz-bang tekkie!!
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3337/argonaut870smallql5.jpg

it takes two minutes to warm up, but once it does.....
you'll die in the street without one of these babies!

[JohnBT]

"Do people truly not see the utility in an ammo side saddle?"

I don't for my situation. When I've emptied the shotgun I'm reaching for another loaded gun if I don't have time to reload from a pocket or belt loop. Might go for the second gun if I do have time to reload. Now, whether that second gun is a shotgun or a handgun will depend on the situation. Doesn't everybody have 2 or 3 loaded shotguns handy? :)

Side saddles, slings and optics can also get hung up on stuff when you're trying to move quickly and/or silently.

John

[JohnBT]

Heh, I should have said shotgun, handgun or rifle. I keep forgetting I finally bought an AR last year. Cute little thing, shoots these itty-bitty little bullets that are nothing like a 12 ga. slug. No sling or glass on the AR either. Too many doorknobs and handrails in my house to be dragging around a sling.

John

[Marshall]

If I can hit running and flying game with my field shotguns, I see no legitimate reason I need sumpin too dang special to hit a full size BG inside my home. :p

I might change up the ammo a bit. ;)

[MCgunner]

Hey, I love that gun with the Swiss Army Knife! I want one...:D

[Oldnamvet]

I'm just trying to figure how many pounds of batteries are needed for it to function.:D

[41magsnub]

I'm just trying to figure how many pounds of batteries are needed for it to function.

None, it requires 208V AC power to run unless the optional field power pack is used. The optional field power pack has a 150 lb battery backup in it.

[H2O MAN]

You're just getting old.

[BruceRDucer]

"...their HD gun, always a black 12ga pump or auto with attached light, laser, disco ball, GPS, anti-lock brakes and 5 inch LED screen. Then we hear about how their 27 round extended mag is loaded with depleted uranium laser guided heat seeking controled explosive slugs."--OkieCruffler

Had to comment on this, because its funny and a good comment on human nature.

There may be an update. How about the "Thought-Controlled Trigger Mechanism"?

If Toilet Paper rolls were more complicated, I'd probably lose my certification to use them.

[Firepower!]

+1 on getting old

[CZguy]

I wish this thread had a poll to see how many older guys like accessories. I wonder if it's just a style. :confused:


+ 2 on getting old.

[Mr.Brown16]

True I am geting a little old of black

[plumberroy]

I mean there is lot more to hunting, than felling game.

By golly SM I do believe you understand the meaning of life:D:D
In my younger days we trained and sold hounds coonhounds beagles + a squirrel dog or two I have hunted with some of the best registared hounds out there I had an ithaca37 and a remington 1100 with safeties converted to left hand (they used to make left hand safeties before the lawyers got involved) could I kill more rabbits with the fancy dogs and guns ?maybe would I go back there over the ruscued beagles and my "ninja":evil: single shot 28 gauge (black synthetic stock,fiber optic bead,nylon sling)? Nope there is lot more to hunting, than felling game.
If you have Learned to shoot and like gadgets by all mean buy what you want
If you a new shotgunner :you can't buy experience :banghead:and don't believe any one telling you, you can
Roy

[Tully M. Pick]

I'd say it's old age. Not everyone is comfortable with a blunderbuss for HD. :neener:

[stellarpod]

I'm 52 and have bird hunted all my life, starting with a Sears 410 and graduating to a 16ga. Wingmaster. In '77 I bought an 1100. I've since owned O/U's, other pumps and coachguns and have put plenty of rounds through all of them.

Nonetheless, my HD shotgun is a Mossberg 590A1 with all kind of Ninjafication, including Knoxx SpecOps stock, Surefire forend light and sidesaddle. I am perfectly confident in my ability to use the gun appropriately, whether it is outfitted as such or not. But, having it doesn't mean I'm a Ninja-wantabee does it?

Okiecruffler:
I know what you're trying to say, and in general I agree with the K.I.S.S. philosophy. I don't believe you intend to be disrespectful. In fact, I've rather enjoyed this entire thread. But, when you read back through your posts you need to read between the lines - the perceived implication is that if you've got these things "hanging" on your shotgun you're probably ill-trained. I know, I know. You didn't *state that outright*. In fact, several people have stated (or implied) that if you spent $$$ on these then you've missed the boat, because you SHOULD HAVE spent the money on ammo, training, et al. The fact is that the two do not have to be mutually-exclusive. It is entirely possible to, 1) outfit your HD shotty with all the bells and whistles you desire, 2) train with the gun in a competent fashion, and 3) train such that you are capable of running the gun with or without the equipment in play.

I guess you can count me as being in browningguy's camp on this one.

And by the way, was that you I saw pack up your stuff and run away when I pulled into the lane next to you with my Ninjafied-Mossberg at the range the other day... ? :D :D :D

stellarpod

[sm]

Server hung...

[Dope]

It's funny reading threads like these. I have been an avid car enthusiast for years and I see the same sort of "factions" arising there.

There are the guys who like to buy/own their vettes/camaros/whatever and leave them completely stock. They wash and wax them 3 times a week (with the proper 100% cotton non-marring washcloths and expertly formulated cleaning/polishing waxes). They laugh at the kids/youngins/whippersnappers who put thousands upon thousands of dollars into their cars to make them look/sound different and/or go faster/stop faster/turn faster/etc. Especially since in the end they generally look uglier and become less reliable.

The same goes vice-versa of course. The hot rodders laugh at the "waxers" because what's the point of having such a fine car if it's not faster/louder/flashier than anyone elses?

So on and so forth. The firearms guys are the same way. The Zumbos laugh at the new-fangled ARs (designed over 50 years ago is "new" apparently) and their incessant need to have everything black and tacticool. The younger guys just scratch their heads and wonder what the fascination with wood stocks is all about anyway.

Humorous I guess. I happen to like them all (cars and guns alike, well except Mustangs - uh oh! ;) ). Anyone who disparages the "other" side is probably just an elitist jerk who feels the need to feel superior to everyone else. There are an awful lot of people like this in this thread.

Dope

[sm]

If a shoot is good, its good.

Problem 2 I know about, and over the years Sensory Input has affected Jury's of one's peers.
Just like it has politicians, and news reporters.

During the voir dire, they really do ask if folks watch, or have watched CSI.
CSI Syndrome does occur and is a concern with trials.

Contact Mas Ayoob, John Farham and others, that have been asked to be expert witnesses.

Zundfolge reminded me of the "The Gary Fadden incident", recently, do an Internet search.
Do take note of the $45,000 "part" of legal fee...

Everyone needs to attend a Jury Trial, and really see what all goes on.

I have assisted in investigation, gathering information, been a witness, character witness, "experience witness", on the jury, Foreman of a Jury and other Courtroom related matters.

If it is a good shoot it is good.

Still one has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt they are innocent.
This costs not only money and time, also emotions, mental stresses, taxes family stability , and job security.

Civil action still may be filed against you, if are not found guilty.

You may win and survive all this, still it costs money, and it may cost a job, the ability to get another job, divorce, seeing your kids, and so much more.

Cut to the chase:

I am going to name names, as an example, I know these folks won't mind.

Shotgun trigger is slapped, in a defensive situation:

Larry Correia, 3 gunner, competitor, business owner Saiga is used.
Now he has credentials, he is married, college educated and a respected member of the community.
Jury may see a black semi auto shotgun, still with all the witnesses, and Professionals that can testify ...

Okie , just a SxS shooter, Professional in the Medical Field, he too, has credentinals, and...

Armchair Commando, has a Ultimate Shotgun, no creds, no professional life, no real shooting experience.
This person posts pictures on the Internet and all sorts of false BS.


They can and will get your computer, and check with ISP and find your posts.

Correia and Okie, they get all this evidence, get a case prepped and go to court and there is that Saiga and SxS...

Armchair's Ultimate is in a courtroom too, with his pics, posts, You-Tube video acting a fool and not very safe.

One is responsible for what they do, and perceptions in a courtroom are real, and real damn serious.

Nothing wrong with a black shotgun and stuff hanging off of it, just the true responsible firearm owner with this set up - is responsible.

That is why some of us are not against such responsible folks, instead the Armchair folks, and we do not mean to paint with a broad brush, anymore than you do, that paint older, traditional folks as being Fudds, or other stereotypes.

I am serious, if one of these Armchairs show up for court, and has not heeded attorney's advise on dress code and appear dressed as they normally do...
They are screwed blue and tattooed in the first 5 minutes of a trial.

Juries are reading everything! Every little detail of a party, not just the words, tone and inflection, but every time they move a hand to face, fidget, close eyes, turn head, reach for a pen/pencil to write something down, attorney whispers in their ear, and they the attorney's - every and anything is being read in response to anything going on in the trial.

Oh we can all have fun, interact, agree to disagree, just we have many young folks that have not lived as long as others, that do not have the upbringing as some, do not have experiences as others do and not mature at all.

This immature behavior reflects badly on all responsible firearm owners, and add to the expense of responsible firearms in a courtroom, reflects badly with Politicians, and MSM.

Something to think about...

[Robert Hairless]

Sm, that is one of the best posts I've ever seen on an Internet gun forum. It might even be the very best I've ever seen. It's the real goods. These lines, especially, sweep away all the nonsense:

If it is a good shoot it is good.

Still one has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt they are innocent.
This costs not only money and time, also emotions, mental stresses, taxes family stability , and job security.

Civil action still may be filed against you, if are not found guilty.

You may win and survive all this, still it costs money, and it may cost a job, the ability to get another job, divorce, seeing your kids, and so much more.

I don't know how many people will recognize their debt to you for that, Steve, but it's a real debt. Reality has ugly ways of correcting fantasy.

[sm]

Robert,

Call me Steve please.
You and I are from a different era, and raised as we were.

Dammit to hell, we have some folks cycling into Firearms and Forums that need a dose of reality, whether they want to read it or not.

I don't meddle, except when safety and some other "right things" have to be done in life,
Just like sharing with a new person to not mix Parson's Ammonia and Clorox bleach together is a responsible thing to do, for safety reasons and not meddling reasons...

This firearm business is serious business too!

[W.E.G.]

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/usas-12.jpg

[Robert Hairless]

Steve, "People from an earlier time" is the description I like best. :)

[Cato the Younger]

Sirs and Ladies-
I currently clerk for a criminal defense attorney, so I realize, or rather I am beginning to comprehend, how important perceptions in shaping jurors minds as to guilt or innocence. My question to Mr. Hairless and Mr. SM, along with any other members of the board who would like to chime in, is this- would a Remington Marine Magnum be considered too "tacticool" in court- it is the same implement used by many police forces, only with the nickle plating. I appreciate any and all comments, so long as they are constructive.

Thank You in advance for your time.

[sm]

Cato,
A Marine Magnum IME, is not a negative thing to a jury.
Granted , some of my experiences I base this on go back a few years, and some of the brainwashing of the masses is not as it is today.

It will depend on the intent of the user, and again my experiences were of law abiding folks, that were being responsible firearm owners.

Same gun used by criminal, would have changed perceptions due to criminal's intent.

A law abiding person, being responsible, and taking prudent steps any person would do in a same situation , is going to have his /her attorney bring up, and out in the open, this shotgun is finished to resist the weather, and exposures to elements consistent with use around water.

Quote the mfg's specs and why that Nickel finish is offered and recommended in certain environments . Continue with letters with letterheads from agencies that issue that gun for wet enviroments.

Have a witness perhaps.
<swear in>

"Yes I a am J.Q Public and I am a catfish farmer in Small Town , Mississippi.
I use a Rem Marine Magnum on the farm. I have a depredation permit, and have assistance from the local Game & Fish.

See we have pests that come to eat the catfish and do damage to the fish farm, which is a special lake if you will. I am out in a boat, and dealing with water, feed, and other things to keep my catfish crop healthy and safe.
I chose that nickel finish to protect my gun, in these conditions and being shiny, it adds a safety feature, as it is seen easier being mounted in the boats as we do..."

"Re direct?"

"No questions your Honor"

"You may step down Mr. Public".


This still costs money...

[Robert Hairless]

Cato the Younger, I'm not a criminal defense attorney or even a criminal, so all I can offer is the opinion of Robert the Older. I don't think the nickel plate should matter much one way or the other.

What I think Steve is talking about is in part cultural symbolism. Let's get past the "Don't judge a book by a cover" phase. Yes, it's wrong to judge a book by its cover. But people do it anyway. I doubt that there's anyone within the sound of my voice who doesn't do it.

You're in an ideal position to recognize that. Surely your criminal-defense-attorney employer has at least some clients who don't always wear a suit, white or blue shirt, and necktie when they come to his office, or are always clean shaven and well groomed and look like choir boys on the way to church.

How does he dress them for court? Does he advise them to wear their "Have a plan to kill everyone you meet" or "Molon Labe" or "Protected by Smith & Wesson" T shirt there? My guess is that he tries to have them look neat, clean, and non-threatening. Do likewise.

First impressions are sometimes all that anyone has. Sometimes they're hard to overcome. And sometimes they're impossible to overcome.

Anyway, I don't understand why some people want to look like what they're not. Someone who is Rambo, capable of beating all challengers, and interested in proving it at any moment is at least the real goods. That man is looking for trouble. I'm not Rambo, consider myself only minimally competent, and don't want to hurt anyone at all. I'm not looking for trouble. And I grow old very well indeed. It's part of my skillset. :)

[Titan6]

I think sm's post falls into the sad but too often true category. The other day I ran into the "liberal" Marine. I had heard about him and wanted to chat with him about some of his views. Seems he wanted to ban assault rifles because of "what they can do". I tried to get him to explain what the difference was between the legal mini-14 and the illegal AR-15 and the legal versions of AR-15s in his home state of California and well... of course he couldn't. So after a bunch of circular talking I laid my rifle on the deck (Marines hate that) and said I wanted to see it.

Him: "See what"
Me: "See what they can do"
Waiting a minute.
Him: "---"
Me: "It is not doing anything. I would really like to see it do something."
Nudge it with my toe.
Him: "---"
Me: "It is still not doing anything. But I know in my heart that the gun is evil because it can do evil things right?"
Him: "That is pretty good...."

So long as people are convinced the tools are evil based on the way they look than that is an issue. But it still won't keep me from using the best tools to defend me and my family.

[Okiecruffler]

Well, if nothing else I can whip people into 5 pages, so I still have it.
Okay, one more gem from my experience. There are 11 guys that I shoot with consistantly. I've known most of them since high school. Seven of them have HD shotguns that look an awfull lot like their feild guns. If trouble were to hit I would feel warm and comfy having any of them taking my 6. The other 4 have these objects at home that look like something out of a Sci-Fi movie. Three of those are real nice guys, we play poker alot, they take my money. But they can't shoot. In the field, a rabbit bolts and the only thing safe is that rabbit. The fourth is different. He's been places and done things that most internet folks only pretend they'd like to do. He's been in situations where it was okay to identify threats with a weapon mounted light, because everything was a threat. We talk alot late at night because he doesn't sleep. His dreams are filled with nightmares of jammed weapons, empty mags and holding back blood from wounds. He dreams of these things because he's lived these things. He talks to me because he knows I don't sleep either, we all have our dreams. In a scrap, he won't have my 6, I'll have his. He's used to rushing head first into nastiness. But you know what? I still make fun of his decked out SG.

[Titan6]

I still make fun of his decked out SG.

Sounds like a fine friend to have. You can make fun of my shotgun if you like, but then I have plenty of rabbits to my credit.

[MCgunner]

In a perfect world, self defense would remain self defense regardless of the tools used for it. Unfortunately, the masses out there are tool stupid and perceptions sometimes need to be taken into account. I wouldn't lose sleep over keeping a short barreled, high cap pump in the house for self defense, but I don't know if I'd want something with a 50 round drum mag and a pistol grip for the reasons you worry about. A SAIGA? Nah, not me. I can do the job of safe room defense just as well with a normal shotgun. I keep my coach gun at the ready, but I have a 500 and if I thought 2 rounds weren't enough, I'd load the magazine and live happy. Of course, I'd have to pull the plug or I'd be at no advantage, LOL. I don't even know if I'd bother with a shorter barrel, no need, really. It is a camo model. Wonder what a jury would think of that? LOL!

[trbon8r]

I don't see anything wrong with an 870 pump, with a Surefire light. I don't think putting a light on the end of a home defense shotgun makes it disco. If anything, it makes you a more responsible gun owner because you can more easily identify your target.

[sm]

There is not.

Do a search for those reviews of Awerbuck's defensive shotgun courses.
Awerbuck will go over the pro's and con's of each shotgun make, and model.

He reminds students, he will not be at their gunfight, and he does not specify a particular make, model or gauge of shotgun has to be used for defensive use.

He will suggest, a shorter LOP, gun fit to shooter, patterning the gun, shooting for slug groups, reliable ammunition, the shooter knowing how to run the gun, keep it fed, deal with any problems that might arise, a sling for transition drill and a light.

He will access a shooters specific concerns about where they live, environment they may find themselves having to use a shotgun for defensive needs, loads and all.

He carries a double barrel shotgun for defensive use on his travels.
He knows this gun, is one with the gun, it is easy to transport, easy to break down when traveling through areas not kind to firearms and firearm owners and it is more 'Politically Correct and Anesthetically Acceptable" to Police, Judges and Juries.


There is no Holy Grail in anything, one must access for themselves what jurisdiction they are in, political flavor they are in , or will be in, and know what they can do with any choice they make.

It does not make a tinker's damn what a Police Dept, LEO Agency, Coast Guard, Military branch or sub branch of issues, uses or has for special tasks if that gun is not legal, is in negative flavor with where one lives with judges, juries and legislation, the shooter cannot shoot it, and other factors such as never shot the thing, much less had any lessons, or is aware of legal use of force where they are, or might be.


WE got a bunch of ijits that own a firearm/shotgun doing more harm to responsible firearm owners, and freedom than tyranny does .

Matters get serious, I want the lady or gent with the well worn SxS in 20 bore, well worn Model 10 with standard pressure loads and Case pocket knife with patina on CV blades watching my six!

I and lady or gent are going to run the opposite direction of TEEM TACK-TICKLE dressed like Rambo, with a Ultimate Extreme Shotgun loaded with Exotic shotgun shells, Less Lethal, and Dragon's Breath rounds with the thigh holster with the Deagle , and $200 whoopie-doo knife they cannot open without acting like Bruce Lee on Meth- that does not know come here from sic 'em.

Sorry man, but dead is forever and forever is a long damn time!

WE are not speaking of persons with maturity, common sense, some lessons, training and all having a syn stocked shotgun, with a side saddle, or light, we are speaking of folks that strut and parrot BS from TV, Movies, Video Games and teh Intrawebz

You a Cop, and have training to use a short shotgun for breeching, - fine, having one you own for quality training makes sense.

You in the Military, and were trained to use the breeching shotgun, again no problem if you have one and keep skills up, you may indeed go back to the sandbox.

You a armored car guard and the issued shotgun is PGO, and you have to shoot qualifications, fine, makes sense , and I have suggested to guards I assisted in training get one when they could and practice with light loads working up to issued 00 buck.

Responsible Firearm Ownership means passing forward what is true and correct.

Not this BS some waste bandwith posting about.

Investigate & Verify.


Steve

[Robert Hairless]

trbon8r:

I don't see anything wrong with an 870 pump, with a Surefire light. I don't think putting a light on the end of a home defense shotgun makes it disco. If anything, it makes you a more responsible gun owner because you can more easily identify your target.

I have no quarrel with what you've just said. If there's a problem with this thread it's the possibility of confusion about its central point.

That point is that hardware does not substitute for ability. The question always is "Can you run the gun?" Can you operate it, move with it, and hit with it.

If you're not one with that shotgun--if it's not part of you--and if you fumble the controls, need to look at them, must think your way through each shot, can't load or reload it smoothly, or are preoccupied with its mechanics, then you can't run the gun and that's a problem. No accessories will solve or reduce it. What several people here have explained is that accessories can even retard your progress or prevent you from getting where you need to be. Have you ever gone to the range and watched somebody keep fiddling with his shotgun between every few shots? He's not there. He can't run that gun and it's useless for serious work. In contrast have you ever seen someone in constant motion (right, left, in, out, behind cover, from one point to another, here one time there another) while shooting his shotgun well beyond its magazine capacity without unnecessary delays and always moving and always hitting? Better believe that he's there and don't argue with him about it or he'll ignore or sneer at you.

If that second person has a light on his shotgun it's there for good reason and he knows how to use it. But whether it's a bare shotgun or one with modifications, there's a reason for everything and nothing is aspirational, presumptuous, non utilitarian, or merely decorative.

So the point is not that the presence of a Surefire forend signals incompetence. It doesn't mean anything at all in and of itself. But if you can't run the gun and can't make the hits, not one of these guys will respect you because you have the Surefire, a Speedfeed stock, Sidesaddle, Vang-Comp, Vickers sling, or anything else. Mere stuff doesn't transfer basic competence or simulate it. The old guys here are talking about competence and skill. It's easy to judge: either you can do whatever is required or you can't, and it's not a matter of opinion or merely a way to put other people down, and it's not a surefire kind of thing.

There is some reverse snobbery at play in this thread, but it has been earned and my own sense is that it's a way to reject basic incompetence and the tendency to acquire things to disguise lack of competence. But there's real truth in it and in any event it really doesn't matter. If you can do what I've described, you don't care what anyone else thinks. You keep watching for information and tips so you can continue to learn and improve, and words are no threat to your self esteem. If you can't do what I've described, though, start listening hard, closely, and carefully. Only hits count. Everything else is a problem to be solved, an evasion to be removed, or an excuse to be ignored. Louis Awerbuck is a kind man and a gentleman. I've never heard him say "You miss great." Don't miss great.

There's are a couple of other things at the heart of these comments. First, I think that Dave McCracken wrote one of his small essays on the nature of shotguns and posted it in this forum. I read it some time ago, remember that it's good, and if my memory is accurate it reflects the basic orientation shared by people who commune with shotguns used in serious work. Second, and infinitely more sensitive, I know that it is fashionable to believe that young people know more than their seniors and much better too--about everything. Write it off to Nature's screw up. Nature just wasn't smart enough to have people born old and inexperienced, then get progressively younger and smarter until eventually they vanish in a poof of smoke with ultimate wisdom. Time doesn't roll backwards where learning is concerned. Maybe Nature will get smarter eventually. Until then it would be a real kindness to pretend that people with the experience demonstrated in this forum actually know things worth learning even though they're not fifteen years old, which is the peak of intelligence among human males. It makes the old guys feel better and keeps them out of our hair, or whatever we're wearing nowadays as beacons to keep errant airplanes from crashing into the tops of our heads.

[Robert Hairless]

[Duplicate]

[CZguy]

Robert Hairless,

You summed up this thread very succinctly in post # 117 ;)

[paintballdude902]

a friend of mine actually sold off his knoxx stock and eotech from his 870 infavor of a plain stock and a set of ghost ring sights

he strarted thinking about all the crap he had failing


as for me i hav a remington sxs......with an eotech jk

[Jaenak]

I figure only buy what works and what you need and to hell with the rest. However, if there's something like a new stock that has nothing to break, then go for it. Also, never ever trust the company's claims about their own products. If you want some "ninja crap" then ask the people that bought it. They'll tell you if it works or not.

BTW, I've heard Surefires work and are tough as nails but I've figured out lasers are kinda fragile and thus not suited for a heavy recoiling weapon like, for an example, a .32 auto.

Edit: Sorry buddy I forgot to flame you like you mentioned. Here you go. :fire:

[wileycoyote]

Not sure how anyone can say a Knoxx stock that was purchased with the shotgun (as Remington now sells them on their units as stock, stocks) can be viewed as a Ninja toy.

I'm new here but one thing I can and will say (I'm sure I will get in trouble for this, but I don't care) people on this board are over opinionated, and argumentative.... and they like to trash others.

THANKS - Apology accepted

[Striker]

Deleted

[Striker]

wileycoyote,

I owe you an apology.

Actually, I agree to some extent with your observation:I'm new here but one thing I can and will say (I'm sure I will get in trouble for this, but I don't care) people on this board are over opinionated, and argumentative.... and they like to trash others.


And I originally posted: Hmm out of the mouth of a newbie, perhaps? This was not meant as a pejorative to you, but rather to acknowledge an insightful comment by a new THR member. Upon reflection however, I thought my "newbie" comment was patronizing to you and thus deleted it.

By the way, welcome to THR

[JohnBT]

"Have you ever gone to the range and watched somebody keep fiddling with his shotgun between every few shots? He's not there."

Yeah, me. Well, is wasn't my only shotgun, just my newest and I was fumbling. A man has to practice, you know? If he's smart he practices. ;)


"people on this board are over opinionated, and argumentative"

Don't you ever argue with your brothers, sisters or buddies? Relax.


As much as I've tried shaking the feeling, I still feel like a well-lit target when I have a light on my gun.

John

[Dave McCracken]

Robert put it nicely. Let me add a few things....

My HD 870 started getting the bells and whistles around 1980. I was working at the MD House of Correction and events there indicated I needed a defensive shotgun more than a goose gun.

I started with my old Number One 870 given me by my father in 1959 or so and went from there.

The barrel got shortened.

I added a peep sight and a front sight to match.

Better wood followed with a real recoil pad.

So did sling studs.

A two shot mag extension tucked in under the 18" barrel and a Side saddle were eventually added.

Sounds like a mallninja wish piece, right?

When I started, it had wear marks I put there in goose blinds, hedge rows and so on. Best guess, I had 50 Canada geese on it, and Heaven knows how much small game. In the course of the mods, I Brenekke'd a couple deer.

In 1983, I used it to take HOA my MD LE 3 gun league. In 1985, I used Number II to repeat.

Everything I added to it was carefully considered ahead of time and shot in. My status as an instructor had me on the range often and I used the time to T&E all the mods.

Dunno how many rounds I put through it but not less than 10K and probably more than 15K.

Do the same with yours and I'll not snivel.

Add the stuff without shooting the thing, do not expect my whole hearted admiration.....

[wileycoyote]

I'm just trying to find out how the Knoxx spec-ops stock works is all - does it perform as advertised???

WoW...!!!!

[Okiecruffler]

Well Wiley, like you say, you're new here, so I'll give you abit of history. This board was started by Oleg when the old Firing Line board went belly up. Alot of old regulars from there came here. Back then everyone knew who was talking out of experience and who was talking out their butt. That was 10,000 members or so ago. I've given up on most of the forums now, and from the look of founding members who don't post anymore I think alot of others have too. I gave up on the pistol boards when I posted a question about my new Charles Daly 1911 that I was having some feeding issues with. I immediately got 20 responses about how stupid I was for expecting it to run. Not about how the gun was problematic, but about how dim I was for buying it. None of them knew me or how many guns I've fixed, or how many hours I spend at the range. I posted the same question on another board that specializes in long distance single shot pistols, not 1911's and got lot's of good ideas. Turns out I swapped out to different mags and that CD has been flawless.
Now I see the same thing happening on the shotgun forum which I always considered abit more well mannered. A week doesn't go by where someone doesn't ask about PGO shotguns. There are a couple of guys on here, and you'll figure out who if you stick around, who have had extensive training and real life utilization of shotguns. They will come in and gentlely respond their feelings on the usefullness, or lack there of, of a PGO shotgun. Almost before you can refresh the page there will be 5 kids come in behind them saying how they don't know what they're talking about and how they can shoot perfect scores with their PGO's loaded with 00. And yet as far as I know, no one has ever taken the Dave Challange.
And I am opinionated, and I was stating my opinion when I started this thread, even tho' most people have ignored it. If you have a Knoxx stock on your shotgun and can shoot well, more power to you. But if you have a bunch of plastic crap bolted on your gun and have to think to remember the last time you were at the range, your priorities are screwed. And if you voice your distain and superiority of the old fella with a stock 870 whose probably spent more time in harm's way that most people have spent on the range, well, then your opinion is worth almost as much as we've paid for it.
And Striker, that response is exactly the kind of post that keeps me out of the pistol forums. Glad you thought about it enough to delete it, but wish you had not posted it at all. Okay, you responded to that while I was typing, I pegged you wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. Problem with the internet is it's a crappy way to communicate. Too easy to misinterpret what someone is saying.

[Striker]

Okie,

No excuse, just flat wrong on my part. Need to engage brain before engaging mouth (or fingers in this case).

[CZguy]

As much as I've tried shaking the feeling, I still feel like a well-lit target when I have a light on my gun.

Sort of like tracers working both ways. :D

[sm]

What do I know, I have Youth Single Shot in 20 ga.

I did get another elastic shell holder for the butt stock.
The first one held up fine, just it made sense at the time to put dawg treats in it, toss it out, and see how the dawg was going to get them big treats out of the thing , that was a bit tricky for me to get in it.

FWIW, a dawg can remove a treat from one of them things faster than one can stuff it...*grin*

My role is my role.
I started young, did my things, and all along the way did my role.

One has to have a good foundation in anything, before they can build upon it.

I have the right to be wrong, and by the same token, I have the right to be correct.

Correct basic fundamentals, a foundation, is that important to me.
It was how I was raised, mentored, and the way I choose to pass forward.

I still use BB Guns to assist new shooters, Brister sharing that in his work, just had me and mine just a grinning. WE did that w-a-y back when.

I still use a garden hose, to assist new shooters.

I still put a band-aid on the side of a gun , so a new person gets finger off trigger, and instills that Rule of Safety, that person , in short order, will get in the habit of putting a finger straight, when it is not trigger slapping time.

I am going to continue having dummy shells to assist with loading and unloading a shotgun.
I am going to continue having Primer only hulls and using this to add the dimension of noise, with a shotgun going off.

I will continue to trace correct "feets" for foot stance on cardboard, plywood, rubber mats.
Look in Misseldine's work and Grant Isleng has foot position on every station, to assist new shooters.

I am going to continue preferring to use a 28 gauge to introduce and assist new folks.
Dammit I am right on this! 28 gauge is that effective with its short shot string, less felt recoil.
I want folks to bust the smithereens out of stationary clay, a balloon, and moving clay. I want their self esteem so high, I want them to have fun!

Will Fennell and others start folks with 28 gauge too!

Safety is paramount, especially the safety of the student!

My role includes kids, ladies, physically limited and elderly. I chose this role.
Abused kids, ladies be they single, single moms, married,raped, beaten, assaulted and My role was to get them to safety and get them up to speed ASAP with a single shot shotgun, as by golly they and the kids if they had them, were in fear of life.

Don't tell me different, I have been there, done that.
I and mine have put ourselves in harm's way to assist these folks.

Same for Physically Limited and Elderly. Yes I know the .410 is not effective in its pattern.
You break you back, neck, hip, detach a retina, or have Osteo so bad you step out of bed and in doing so - break a foot.

Doctors and Physcial Therapist Orders on what can and cannot be done.
.22 Rifle, I don't give a damn what anyone says, if the person is going to permanently lose a eye, get paralyzed, and other damage, I am NOT going to do shotguns!

That grandparent, that used to shoot clays, and with raising kids, a family and all - has not in years.
Grandkid gets bigger and - by damn, we start with a 28 ga so that grandparent , grandkid, and parents can all shoot shotguns as a family.

Damn! I mean seeing a kid shoot a low 7 and bust it, with grandparent and parents - you cannot put a monetary value on that!

You have a grandparent dying, we all know it, still they do make that dove hunt.
Little Grandkid, not really big enough to shoot a shotgun by themselves, still on dove on the ground, and dying grandparent assists with that shotgun he got that kid.
That moment, that dove going to a taxidermist...Priceless!

My role what I chose to do, I promised me, and my mentors and elders.


Now- you want to learn to shoot Defensive? Fine, go see Awerbuck
You want to shoot Sporting Clays? Go see Will Fennell.

My role is to do my role so when you show up, like the lady I stood outside the curtain when the rape kit was done in the ER, and her son was being sent to OR for a busted leg, when she got better, time passed she got lessons from Missledine.

"What damn fool said gun fit was important and what idiot would shoot a 1300 for duck hunting" - Misseldine.
"Well Steve got me this far, and the gun fit , and some old fart named Fred uses 1300s".

Lady showed up to see a defensive shotgun trainer with a 1100 in 20 ga.
"Steve got me started, I know the 4 rules and this used skeet gun fits, for skeet. I am here to learn, and this is the only gun I have besides a .410 single shot, Steve gave me on a bad, bad night I try to forget.

Trainer did not look down on that used 1100 in 20 ga, with a fixed choked 26" barrel.
He saw grit, honesty, willingness to learn and pen and paper.
She run the gun, she did fine.
Trainer got some other guns, better suited for defensive use, tad shorter LOP, shorter barrel and these two measured, shot, made notes, and she even traced the damn thing to make sure on paper.

I have my convictions, and I have earned them. I have earned the trust of a lady, that really did not think too highly of men,as a man raped/assaulted, knifed, shot... ditto for kids, as a guy hurt them and their momma.

NO. I will not start a new person on a AR Stock for a shotgun, I am not that old, still I am not that young. I started too damn young, and am a product of my raisin', and dammit, a full stock, bone stock shotgun stock, wood, is what I want to start a new shooter out with.

Wood. Less felt recoil being denser, Gun fit can be tweaked, gun fit means that much to me, be it clay or defensive.

Now, once the correct basics are down, take them Wood measurements, and get a synthetic if need.

I am right! My Mentors were right! Some things just "are" and as Rand said
"A is A".

Larry Correia.
Now folks might think Larry and I are total opposites on shotgun thinking, we are not.

Larry learned to shoot and damn well, with a bone stock shotgun.
He chose to compete, and chose later 3 gun.
He added what he needed to shoot that game.

Saiga's come along and he tested and eval-ed them.

Short shotguns, he knows about, his clientle and his business is with some real deal folks that run toward trouble, like SWAT, and those in the Military.

Nothing wrong with these guns, if one can afford them, nothing at all.

Larry is damn good at teaching CCW btw, we agreed to disagree on firearms - we do agree each person is different, and where they live, political flavor, city vs rural and other factors play a role in choices.


First shotgun?
I am going to continue to suggest a bone stock, wood full stock, getting it fitted to shooter and getting the correct basics.

With such a gun, one can shoot clays, hunt, and handle a serious situation.

One can shoot at ranges, that otherwise restrict some configs.
One can show up to shoot quail in Georgia, or doves in TX or South American.
One can assist a daughter in the Girl Scouts, or son in the Boy Scouts...

None of this shooting stuff was ever about me, it was about others.

I have my fun, razz, tease, - deep down there is a damn serious side to me.

Oh some of the stuff I share, is not about shooting, it is about life, and how I was raised in regard to life.
Ruark wrote stories about hunting and fishing too, and he too shared about life and living life, mixed in with his works.


We all can look back, shake our heads and wonder why in the hell did we did , or thought what we did at that time.

Age , disease, injury, and death gets us all.

It ain't no big deal - and I ain't either.


I've stuck a fork in this one, and this one is done for me.

[plumberroy]

Well
I'm just a middle aged hillbilly plumber that has been totin" around a shotgun regularly since I was 9 I have never had to fire in defence the couple times I have had to bring a gun to bear it was enough to end the situation with out deadly force. I have been in a spot where missing equalled going hungry (I ain't missed too many meals. take that any way you want) I am old enough and smart enough to know words of wisdom and experience from words of someone with more money than brains and has probably fire less rounds than I have setting on my desk. If you Are new to shotguns You will do well to listen to people like Steve(sm) Robert or Dave and the other old timers here Any one who tell you that a gadget will make up for lack of experience is lieing to you. Any gun you plan on defending you family with ought to be an extention of you arm you should be able to work it in complete darkness. If I ever have to go into the dark with a gun and have to pick some one to cover my backside I'll pick an old fart that uses a single shot by choice over a gung ho yuppy with a tacticool gun every time you got to watch out for those old farts with a single shot they usually Know how to use them( I read old posts)


Disclaimer : this is the opinion of a
middle aged hillbilly plumber that
has been down the road a time or
two and are based on my personal
knowledge and experiences offered
to hopefully help you since we live
in a free country you have the right
to have a different opinion,
Some one asked the question
I am just trying to help
Roy

[igpoobah]

Hey, at least people are still buying guns, regardless of how much any one person cares for another person's choice in firearms, the important thing is that people are still buying guns. When we fail to pass on this particular freedom to the next generation is the day we will LOSE this right. There must be people to fight the good fight and today's young whippersnappers will be tomorrow's 2A defenders.

This coming from a former, and now reformed tacticool young whippersnapper.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I respect them all just the same whether or not I agree with them or not. Just remember: If we don't hang together, we will hang seperately.

For what it's worth, I agree! Just asking to not alienate the younger crowd. Just because one starts out on a silly path doesn't mean they won't wind up on the correct one.

[MCgunner]

When I was a young whipper snapper, there was no "tacticool" Of course, I remember paper hull shot shells and how they swelled when they got wet. :rolleyes: Plastics, young man, the future is in plastics! What movie was that? "The Graduate" I think.........

[3fgburner]

The only mod on my Mossberg 500 (18"bbl, 5x3" magazine) is a gooshy recoil pad. I'd originally bought it for the wife to use as an HD gun.

[noskilz]

I'm primarily a lurker here. Don't know a lot about shotguns. Tryin' to learn. Used to know a lot about baseball. Couple of decades or more past. For the lower levels, nothing better than a well worn in glove to tell you that a kid could play. Shiny new glove meant his mom bought him something at the sporting goods store. At the higher levels, players got their gloves from the reps. Different quality. All depends. Can you use the glove? Can you run the gun?

[Robert Hairless]

Not sure how anyone can say a Knoxx stock that was purchased with the shotgun (as Remington now sells them on their units as stock, stocks) can be viewed as a Ninja toy.

I'm new here but one thing I can and will say (I'm sure I will get in trouble for this, but I don't care) people on this board are over opinionated, and argumentative.... and they like to trash others.

THANKS - Apology accepted

You're wrong. Nobody here is opinionated or argumentative. Maybe you but nobody else. No apology for you. No soup for you either. :)

Your first paragraph misses the point completely. Remington is a business. Businesses sell what people want to buy or they either go out of business or get acquired by more successful businesses.

The point isn't about what businesses sell but about what people buy and--more important--
why they buy it. There's nothing wrong with the Knoxx stocks per se or about having one on a shotgun. What we--at least I--are talking about is whether you are a nice guy with a nice gun or a shooter. By the way, I know many shooters who have pretty guns too. But those people are hell on wheels with those guns as well as the ugly ones. Having a ratty shotgun is not necessarily the sign of a shooter. The results are what count.

As for online attitudes .... Read the message you posted and to which I responded. Attitude? For hurt feelings I have an inexhaustible supply of sympathy chits I got from the Chaplain's office years ago. You can have all you want. Got little bandaids too for the ouch.

Get past the fog. It's not about grizzled old guys telling stories about ancient wars and how times were better then. It's about what works, what doesn't, and what can save your life or get you dead. You don't have to listen to it or even to like it. Much of what's transmitted is necessarily anecdotal: the best anyone can do is relate what they've learned based on their experiences and observations. Better from them who know it firsthand than from all the many others who have read about it on the Internet, seen it on TV or in the movies, played it on a videogame, or thunk it up all by themselves.

[pbearperry]

I own a Remington 1100 and a Winchester Model 12 and a Mossberg all in 12 gauge.They are all stock,however I would like a Ghost Ring setup on all three.Nothing more,nothing less.The bells and whistles are only on my bicycle.

[Dave McCracken]

No,John, nobody has taken up the gauntlet.

For those coming in late, here's the challenge. Any PGO fan can pick the course of fire, ammo and distance. He/she can use ANY accessory up to radar and belt feed. I'll use a more or less standard 870 with a real wood stock on it. Score wins, time settles ties but there will not be one. Scores and results. will be posted here and the loser buys the coffee and Krispy Kremes.

And ancient as I am, I'm fond of new Beretta O/Us, F/O sights, 7/8 oz loads, recent recoil pads like Sims, KickEez and the Decellerator and other stuff I've found to work by using it.

It's not technology that chafes me, it's mindset.

[stellarpod]

I guess I need to unsubscribe to this thread because DAMMIT, I'm gettin' PISSED!

This ENTIRE thread began with a highly condescending tone by Okiecruffler which very clearly indicated his disdain and outright laughter at those who deviate from *simple*, stock shotguns.

Then the bandwidth is flooded with pics of their HD gun, always a black 12ga pump or auto with attached light, laser, disco ball, GPS, anti-lock brakes and 5 inch LED screen. Then we hear about how their 27 round extended mag is loaded with depleted uranium laser guided heat seeking controlled explosive slugs. Where do you people live? My father once gave me some good advice about buying cars. He said never pay for all the add on bells and whistles, they'll just fail when you start relying on them. K.I.S.S. I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.

HELL Okie! How can you read your own words above and not see how arrogant that sounds? You started this thread assuming that you were going to get flamed and now everyone's surprised that it has resulted in exactly that, turning into a highly polarized debate? JEEZZ!

NONE of us who frequently read the Shotgun section of this forum doubt the experience and wisdom that comes by way of SM, Dave, Robert or yourself. The issue for me is not the validity of that advice. The issue is in the condescending delivery of the message.

In Post #128 you make the following statement:

I gave up on the pistol boards when I posted a question about my new Charles Daly 1911 that I was having some feeding issues with. I immediately got 20 responses about how stupid I was for expecting it to run. Not about how the gun was problematic, but about how dim I was for buying it. None of them knew me or how many guns I've fixed, or how many hours I spend at the range.

Yet that's EXACTLY the kind of judgemental attitude that prevails in your opening statement, suggesting that those who have these *whistles and bells* are somehow ill-trained and mentally ill-equipped to use a shotgun. Further statements from several would suggest that anyone who equips their shotgun with anything other than wood stocks and bead sights must be trying to compensate for their inability and inexperience. You know, that is probably true in some instances. BUT IT AIN'T ALWAYS SO!

You guys do not have the MARKET CORNERED on how to equip and run a shotgun. You undoubtedly do have vastly more experience than me or most others here. We would all be well advised to listen to that experience and use it where appropriate. But, that doesn't magically make it OK to broad-brush those who utilize new technology as inexperienced and ill-trained. Whether you said those actual words or not, that's damn-well how they sound!

Now, I'm probably going to regret this little tantrum. I'm sure I'll be slapped down for it and probably deservedly so. But, Lord knows, there have been plenty of others wane on and on with their opinions here. I suspect one more won't hurt.

I'm going to bed. When I read this in the morning I'm sure I'll want to apologize to the whole world...

stelllarpod

[Okiecruffler]

Dave, I been trying to make a point now for 6 pages, you come along and make it in 8 words.

Now Stella, I ain't never met an Okie I didn't like (except my ex-fiance, and I suspect she was really a Texican in disguise) and I ain't gonna start now. But if you're gonna quote me at least use the whole quote. You left out a bit.
Everytime someone post a question about "is such and such adaquate for HD?" Immediately they are beseiged with folks posting about how that was only adaquate in the 1200's when bad guys were polite and would faint at the sound of a harsh word.
Now if you don't fit into that group of folks who hold their collective noses at anything below tackicool, I'm not sure how your nose got so bent. I've never said that everyone with tricked out SG's is a mall ninja, I've repeated that enough, I won't repeat it again. I will however stand behind my statement that 90% of the shooters I've seen with those weapons should spend more time at the range and less time reading soldier of fortune. I'll even go this far (and this is sure to get some panties in a wad) I have never seen anyone with an AR15, tricked out or not, who could shoot better than 3 inch groups at 100yrds. I assume the weapon is capable. I assume there are subMOA AR15 shooters out there, but I haven't seen them. It's not just the SG gadgets I take issue with, hell, it's not the gadgets at all (I've been seen once or twice playing with a PGO and had a big grin on my face while doing it, at least until I tried buckshot in it). I take issue with the modern mindset of thinking you can pass over the basics if you just buy enough gear. Now if you want to play the game that way yourself, no harm no foul I suppose, but there are those who like to come off sounding like an expert who are passing this garbage off to new shooters. It boils down to this, if you can't shoot, you can't shoot, and nothing you bolt, screw or glue on that gun is gonna make a bit of difference.

[plumberroy]

I going to add one thing Stellarpod the more thing you have on a gun the more things to consider in a defence sittuation the more time it takes the 1/100th of a second deciding light or lazar may be the difference between life and death the traditional achery old timers will set up a big target and shoot blindfolded to develope form if you can not run anything on a gun easily blindfolded it can get you killed, or worse a loved one.
Okie do you like old hillbillies that lived there for a while ? I spent a couple years around billings /tonkawa area

[Okiecruffler]

There's a special place in my heart for hillbillies. My ma's kin are from Kentucky and Tennesee. There's a couple of them that ain't seen shoes in years. Not to mention having a bit of Bill Monroe's (if you don't know, I can't explain) blood running thru my veins, I hear the constant sound of bluegrass in my head.

[Snarlingiron]

I'm just trying to find out how the Knoxx spec-ops stock works is all - does it perform as advertised???

Yep, it does. I like mine.

BTW, this is my home defense weapon :neener:

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=72832&stc=1&d=1202897269

[Titan6]

I'll even go this far (and this is sure to get some panties in a wad) I have never seen anyone with an AR15, tricked out or not, who could shoot better than 3 inch groups at 100yrds.

You went too far.

You can start with the Mods. Several of them own AR-15s and by all accounts can shoot at least that well, although I have not seen it. Me too.

In fact if you posted that in the Rifle or general section (or competition) you will quickly become overwhelmed with offers to show you in person. In fact I know several 8-10 year old boys that I have seen shoot at least that well with an AR-15. Try going to a police competition sometime and see how many ARs come out and what type of skill you see displayed.

[Okiecruffler]

See, I knew I could poke the bear some more. Like I said, I'm sure there are some folks out there who can shoot those things. I've seen the groups posted in competions, so I know the rifle is capable of it. But I haven't seen anyone, and I mean anyone, who can shoot one. And I spend alot of time at the range. Unfortunately the last LEO I spoke with at the range became upset with me. He was busy telling me how he can pull off a head shot at 300yrds with his cruiser 870. I simply asked him to show me, I wanted to see someone who could shoot that well. (That BTW is not a slam against LEO's, most of my father's family are in law enforcement)
Now I do shoot at a range where the sheriff's department does alot of shooting, but I've never been there when they have their rifles out. Too bad, I'll bet it's a hoot. Now those fellas can shoot those SG's tho. But they are bone stock 870's.
I'm actually becoming kinda curious about the AR15 even tho it's not my style. I wouldn't use it for HD, neighbor's never wronged me any, but I would like to see what one could do from the bench with tailored loads.

[wileycoyote]

I'm a retired LEO from a MAJOR city in the North East 35 years total in LE. I have shot quite a few shotguns (I'm no expert, but I'm no newbie either) -

So folks relax... The Knoxx stock does what it's supposed to, if you don't like it who cares, don't buy it... But why knock people who have them.

A well written post about your opinion is all - no need to go over the top with name calling because someone is using something you don't have and probably can't afford - and yes I am pretty sure I'm right about this forum!!!

[stellarpod]

Now if you don't fit into that group of folks who hold their collective noses at anything below tackicool, I'm not sure how your nose got so bent. I've never said that everyone with tricked out SG's is a mall ninja, I've repeated that enough, I won't repeat it again. I will however stand behind my statement that 90% of the shooters I've seen with those weapons should spend more time at the range and less time reading soldier of fortune.

And here we go again...

I would humbly submit to you that 90% of ALL SHOOTERS should spend more time shooting and perhaps less time posting diatribe on the Internet - that includes ALL of us.

You make a distinction, using words like "tackicool" to emphasize your point. IMHO there is a grain of validity in your statements, insomuch as most shooters (myself included) do not spend enough time with proper training and squeezing the trigger in general. There is no question that many a budding shooter falls for the marketing hype that promotes all kinds of *inventive* solutions. Some of those solutions are valid, most probably are not.

My issue with the philosophy promoted in this thread is the retro-snob elitist tone which seems to patently dismisses the viability of new technology, and sadly labels those who engage it as untrained, incapable and not worthy of "watching your six". The truth is that probably MOST of us fit into that category, regardless of the equipment we use. I don't have to, in Zumbo fashion, vilify the "black gun" to make that point. I've seen just as many scattered patterns at the benchrest range from good ol' wood-stocked rifles to make that conclusion.

Okiecruffler, I'm not questioning your ability, your wisdom or your manhood. Perhaps your reference to me as "Stella" was a jab at my manhood - or maybe I'm just reading too much into it. But, I patently dismiss your argument that black gun generally indicates poor shooting skills. It's not the kind of skin-deep judgement that I'm comfortable with. I will however agree that most of our fraternity should spend more time walking and less time talking.

Now, in the spirit of broad-brush I'll take a stab at voicing my own conclusion: It appears to me that the average shooter these days is dramatically out of shape and overweight. I, too am carrying more weight than I should be, and am working diligently to correct that. I would suggest that most of us who are concerned about our ability to employ a successful defense should worry more about how many donuts we're eating than what kind of weapon we're using. In my observation it seems that the average weight of the shooting fraternity is increasing at a frightening pace. I suspect heart attacks and strokes will kill more of us than failed *tacticool* equipment. Just my opinion.

As far as you liking me as an Okie; Actually, I'm a Texan by birth and an Okie by choice. Perhaps it's the Texan in me that gives pause to your ability to maintain your "ain't met an Okie I didn't like" attitude. And for that, I can find it in my heart to cut you a little slack. :D :D :D

stellarpod

[Okiecruffler]

Well now Wiley, I thought you said,
I'm just trying to find out how the Knoxx spec-ops stock works is all - does it perform as advertised???
If you already have one and know it works, I'm getting confused. (Don't worry, it's a normal state for me. I'm used to it.)
And I have to say in my defense since you've alluded to me being a poor southern boy, I'd be willing to bet I pull down more per year than at least 80% of the people on this board. And with you being a retired LEO, I'd be pretty confortable putting you in that 80%. I ain't saying that's right. I always wondered why we pay the people who we expect to protect us so little. But I also don't hide the fact that I make money. I make money because there isn't a pediatric nursing certification that I don't hold. I also work five 12 hour shifts a week. I earn every dime. But that's beside the point, I don't judge folks by how much money they make. Just don't want you to get the idea that everyone who uses a simple no-frills SG does it because they can't afford no better. I've seen pictures of Dave's Frankenstein, and no offense meant here Dave, it looks like it came out of the back room in a thrift store. But you think I'd put 2 dimes against him when he's shooting it? My momma only raised one fool and he don't live in my house.
But Wiley don't judge the whole forum by my one post. Ask anybody around here, I like poking at folks. Read some the other posts.

[JohnBT]

"The truth is that probably MOST of us fit into that category"

Okay, so what's the problem with talking about it? I don't see any.

John

[Okiecruffler]

Stellarpod, you have my appology for the "stella" thing. It wasn't intentional. I was in the middle of charting and just in the grove of abbreviating everything over 7 letters.
And I'll give you that at least 90% of all shooters could use some more range time. I doubt anyone has ever had too much range time.
And to be honest I use the term "Tackicool" in part for the same reason I use "Sillywetts" I don't have a dictionary handy. but in part I also use it because I find it amusing.
And I'll even admit to not just carrying a few extra pounds, but a few extra people. It doesn't stop me from doing what I want to do, but I am starting to feel it. And yet often I'm still the "skinny" guy at the range and gunshow. We really should take better care of ourselves.
But heck, I still like you even if you aren't a native Okie. At least you had the good sense to move here. If we're ever at the range together the drinks are on me.:D

And Dave or whichever Mod is probably thinking about it right now, you can close this thread without worrying about my feelings. I started the thread kinda tongue in cheek to see if I could rile a few folks (probably the wrong thing to do), but I think some people have taken it personally and I never intended that. Anyone who feels like they haven't given me whatfor can email me at okiecruffler@yahoo.com. No reason to burn up bandwidth rehashing the same old stuff.

[wileycoyote]

My friend maybe your right about what you make as compared to my retirement pension - but seeing that it's nobodies F-ing business what I make and I'm not about to post it here - LOL...

I will say this with authority - I retired from a major Police force that was the highest paid force in the whole Country at the time I retired. I would venture to say that I probably make more in my retirement then you do in your base salary, and I'm pretty comfortable in saying that ...

[Okiecruffler]

Could be, I only know what the pay is around these parts and it's embarrassing. Story in todays paper about a fella who killed his girlfriend, got arrested by an officer who saw him shove a pistol in his waistband. Officer was offduty working as a security guard to make ends meet. That ain't right.
But neither here nor there I suppose.

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, John. Those eight words ring true.

Frankenstein is obviously a mutt but runs like Seabiscuit. Being a mutt myself, I enjoy the similiarity. And we've surprised the heck out of a few people.

I oughta shoot Frank and one of my bellsnwhistles 870s with all the stuff on and compare scores and splits. I've a hunch there's not much difference.

[3fgburner]

Snarlingiron,

That is, indeed, a formidable HD weapon. If you ever find yourself facing a goblin with it, I would submit to you an excellent phrase with which to address him. This comes from a friend of mine who works at Jamestown. J. was driving along, and out of the goodness of his heart picked up a hitch-hiker. The hitcher tried to carjack him with a knife. J. reached behind the seat, pulled up a Queen Anne pistol, and said,

"Don't MAKE me chip a flint in yo' ass..."

[Okiecruffler]

You know, one of these days I just may load up and take the Dave Challenge. Not that I think I would have a chance, it'd just be an honor to shoot with you. My theory on well worn shotguns has always been "How you think they got that way"
One of my most humbling experiences was watching an old fella walk off with an old silvered ratty pump shotgun over his shoulder and a wad of my well earned cash in his pocket. I learned alot that day, like what it was like to only be able to afford crow for lunch. None too satisfying.

[Okiecruffler]

"Don't MAKE me chip a flint in yo' ass..."


Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.

[Dave McCracken]

Like to shoot with you too, John, competition be darned. Just two friends a shootin'.

"Well worn shotguns". Yup, that's how they get that way.

[Robert Hairless]

My friend maybe your right about what you make as compared to my retirement pension - but seeing that it's nobodies F-ing business what I make and I'm not about to post it here - LOL...

I will say this with authority - I retired from a major Police force that was the highest paid force in the whole Country at the time I retired. I would venture to say that I probably make more in my retirement then you do in your base salary, and I'm pretty comfortable in saying that ...

I will say this with authority. It is everybody's business how much money you make. You made it everybody's business by saying that you make more money than anyone else here. So tell us exactly how much you make and prove it with some credible evidence. Stop dodging: you make assertions, claim the authority to do so, deny everyone else's authority, and then refuse to prove what you say. What department do you claim to have belonged to, how much was your retirement pay in 2007, and what was your total net income that year? We'll wait until later this year for updated reports.

My authority includes but is not limited to knowing two retired cops--personally. Both of them have moustaches. I bet you don't have a moustache. I also drove by a police station today and, on the way, saw three police cars with active duty police officers in them. So I know much more about shotguns than you do, and as additional proof--incontrovertible evidence--I saw a video of Tom Knapp shooting 8 clay pigeons out of the air.

I also said "Hello officer" to a real cop once. You can't beat that as ancillary authority I betcha.

So there. End of discussion. And I did it without cursing even once.

Now that we're friends and since you have so much money, can you spare a thousand dollars for a cup of coffee? I like fresh coffee so I want to drink it in Brazil. You're rich. You won't miss a grand here or there. Poor people like me need to rely on wealthy people like you for the finer things in life.

[PTK]

Though I own NFA items, "tactical" items, main battle rifles, etc., my SHTF gun is a single shot properly fit 12ga NEF single shot. I've now got over 3,000 rounds through it, no problems except it's starting to show some wear marks. Oh well, it's honest wear.

For home defense, I have a slightly different outlook. Due to past happenings, I may well encounter more than one person looking to do me serious harm. I keep a PS90 (50 rounds) and an AR-15 (30 rounds) loaded and handy for home defense, but they're both rifles I can hit fast and accurately with. Likewise, my carry gun is a FN USG Five-seveN (20 rounds), but it's not something I bought and suddenly thought I could point shoot properly with. For what it's worth, I also feel pretty comfy carrying my 1940s S&W M&P in .38spl.

I don't fall victim to either the "stock or it's trash" OR the "tactical means I'm a great marksman now!" thinking. I'm fast and accurate with my single shot shotguns, my short barreled guns, my pistols and revolvers, my rifles, etc.

Of course, if it were a life and death situation and I had a choice between a tricked out shotgun with pistol grips, extended mag, heatshield, etc. and a bone stock single shot NEF.... I'd pick the NEF each and every single time.

It's not technology that chafes me, it's mindset.

It boils down to this, if you can't shoot, you can't shoot, and nothing you bolt, screw or glue on that gun is gonna make a bit of difference.

Agreed on both parts, fellows!

[wileycoyote]

Your truly a silly man Mr. Hairless and may I remind you (please read back through the thread I'm not the one that started the discussion about who makes more money) please open your eyes and read, that's right read, read, there you go Mr. Hairless, there you go ... silly man! Oh and one more thing it's none of your business what I make and there's no way you will ever find out, but, when I'm on my second cup of starbucks coffee tomorrow morning around 8:15AM watching morning Joe on MSNBC I'll be thinking about you at work or on your way to, and hoping you have a wonderful day - wink, wink, have fun!!!

I'm not debating - I'm done, over and out, don't waste your time posting more nonsense on my behalf because I will not be reading it -I am officially checking out of this pathetically stupid thread -

[41magsnub]

Wiley, you must be new here.. you don't really want to debate Mr Hairless on something as stupid as this.

[Ed Ames]

I will say this with authority. It is everybody's business how much money you make.

Rah rah rah! Sic'im 'airless! :D

Let's take an edumucated guess... Boston PD has some of the highest paid cops in the country... but most of that is in overtime and detail pay. Base pay for a sergeant with some seniority would be about 80K, or a captain about $100K. Let's say 'yote was on the 100K bus. Retirement is half at 20 years... but some dept's do 3/4 at 30 years+ (not sure if Boston is one) so if the 'yote claims to be getting 3/4 pay that's maybe $75K/yr. Maybe more or less but that's a good ballpark.

To scale that... if he retired at 56 then his life expectancy is 83. 27 years. Do some interest calculation magic (assuming a hearty 6.5% interest) and that comes to an equivalent net savings (the amount he would need to have saved to equal his projected retirement payout) of about $900K. Of course if he retired at 60 his life expectancy would actually be about 76 and his equivalent net savings would only be about $700K. If he retired at 64? Let's just say four years can seem like a long time (we hope) and $250K is a very respectable sum, right? That's like getting a free house these days (though certainly not in the northeast). Man, actuarial tables are MEAN!

None of that is anything to be ashamed of of course. Well, so long as they have decent inflation adjustments and so forth. To scale it... if, at 25, he started saving about $5000/yr, he'd have more income available at retirement and his survivors would get a nice lump of cash if he died early instead of...well... nothing. Saving $5000/yr is very respectable.

:scrutiny:

[Robert Hairless]

I'm new here but one thing I can and will say (I'm sure I will get in trouble for this, but I don't care) people on this board are over opinionated, and argumentative.... and they like to trash others.

A well written post about your opinion is all - no need to go over the top with name calling because someone is using something you don't have and probably can't afford - and yes I am pretty sure I'm right about this forum!!!
My friend maybe your right about what you make as compared to my retirement pension - but seeing that it's nobodies F-ing business what I make and I'm not about to post it here - LOL...

I will say this with authority - I retired from a major Police force that was the highest paid force in the whole Country at the time I retired. I would venture to say that I probably make more in my retirement then you do in your base salary, and I'm pretty comfortable in saying that ...

Your truly a silly man Mr. Hairless and may I remind you (please read back through the thread I'm not the one that started the discussion about who makes more money) please open your eyes and read, that's right read, read, there you go Mr. Hairless, there you go ... silly man! Oh and one more thing it's none of your business what I make and there's no way you will ever find out, but, when I'm on my second cup of starbucks coffee tomorrow morning around 8:15AM watching morning Joe on MSNBC I'll be thinking about you at work or on your way to, and hoping you have a wonderful day - wink, wink, have fun!!!

I'm not debating - I'm done, over and out, don't waste your time posting more nonsense on my behalf because I will not be reading it -I am officially checking out of this pathetically stupid thread -

Although I appreciate your sweet talk, I must inform you that I'm happily married: this online relationship can lead nowhere. Don't be disheartened though. You're sure to find others who are almost as silly as I am but are available to a wealthy retired cop with nothing better to do than come into a thread to tell people off and swear at them.

It's a respectable hobby nowadays, and people melt at the knees when confronted by an alpha male in heat, especially when he has money and drinks Starbucks coffee.

Look, I hope that this doesn't mean you're not sending me the $1,000? Okay, how about $750? I'll settle for $50 so I can have a few cups of Starbucks, listen to the cool music there, and maybe buy a small piece of cake. My noseprints get all over the window when I press against it to look at the privileged class with yearning.

Anyone else want to talk about shotguns? I don't mind learning from over opinionated, argumentative folks who like to trash others.

[sm]

Anyone else want to talk about shotguns? I don't mind learning from over opinionated, argumentative folks who like to trash others.

I do!

Wanna hear how Marine Magnum shotguns don't float, or how about the time I experimented with a load of miniature gum balls for pest control loads, or...

Hang on, I'll think of something...

[Deer Hunter]

Guns in the hands of the people are what matter. Doesn't matter what they look like. Whether it be an old grouse gun or a sleek "Tactical" black gun doesn't matter one iota. Opinions vary, as does venues and culture. What's right for one isn't right for another, etc. Don't get too wrapped up in it. If it shoots hot lead, it's a friend of mine.

And if it shoots LOTS of hot lead, I'd go so far as to call it family.

[Okiecruffler]

Nah, I'm tired of talking shotguns, I wanna hear about people who pay Starbuck's prices for coffee.To be fair, it was me who said I make more than most people on this board, I can say that because I know what I make compared to the national average. And if you want to know exactly what I made last year I'll send you my W2's and you can do my taxes. Can't possibly do any worse than my current accountant. Talk about someone I'd like to take a shotgun to.
Steve, I've never used gumballs, but I did load some popcorn shells (they didn't pop), used flour for shot buffer once (everyone for miles knew exactly where our duck blind was) and used a 12 ga slug on a rabbit once (always remember which barrel is which). Just pick a topic, hell I'm tired of this one and I started this pathetically stupid thread.

[Robert Hairless]

Wanna hear how Marine Magnum shotguns don't float, or how about the time I experimented with a load of miniature gum balls for pest control loads, or...

Nope, I am not going to bite on your gum balls but I do have a couple of real questions about the Marine Magnum.

First question: How well does the nickle plating protect against salt water corrosion? I'm curious about whether the Marine Magnum can be stored on a boat and left there without care or whether it requires frequent maintenance.

Second question: Would an 870 coated with GunKote--or even GunKote over Parkerizing, the way Wilson/Scattergun does--resist salt water corrosion as well or better than the Marine Magnum?

[ConstantineC9]

Exactly, I dont care if I get flamed for saying this so here it goes: If all you can afford is a Hi Point, buy it, it's gonna serve it's purpose and it's better than nothin.

[sm]

Re: Magnums.

My Experience is with the older Remingtons.

Freshwater:
Yes they do assist in resisting water damage.
Some were tested in and around Catfish Farms, as they do get out and into boats, and with all they handle, such as feed and other chemicals, and handling and exposures do work.
They work when it is raining too, and the shiny metal, is a safety measure.
Easy to see the gun and it being secured. That tidbit was mentioned in regard to insurance and liability btw.

Farms, Ranches , similar exposures.
Crop dusters spray, folks work in the rain and all, feed seed and even Sod Farms ( where they grow grass for golf courses, and foot ball fields and the like) use these for pest control.
Two legged pests were one concern near a Sod Farm.

Saltwater:
I do not live near salt water.
I did go to where salt water was, and test.
I paid attention to those that do live near, and what all their experiences were with Marine Magums and other finishes.

Other finishes ( or not) I can address another time.
Just some situations , folks want shiney, and not trying to hide or conceal the shotgun so much.
It is a tool, and used as such.

On board storage - works great!

I really do not know if these newer Marine guns, are the same as the older ones.

[sm]

Re: Magnums.

My Experience is with the older Remingtons.

Freshwater:
Yes they do assist in resisting water damage.
Some were tested in and around Catfish Farms, as they do get out and into boats, and with all they handle, such as feed and other chemicals, and handling and exposures do work.
They work when it is raining too, and the shiny metal, is a safety measure.
Easy to see the gun and it being secured. That tidbit was mentioned in regard to insurance and liability btw.

Farms, Ranches , similar exposures.
Crop dusters spray, folks work in the rain and all, feed seed and even Sod Farms ( where they grow grass for golf courses, and foot ball fields and the like) use these for pest control.
Two legged pests were one concern near a Sod Farm.

Saltwater:
I do not live near salt water.
I did go to where salt water was, and test.
I paid attention to those that do live near, and what all their experiences were with Marine Magums and other finishes.

Other finishes ( or not) I can address another time.
Just some situations , folks want shiney, and not trying to hide or conceal the shotgun so much.
It is a tool, and used as such.

On board storage - works great

I really do not know if these newer Marine guns, are the same as the older ones.

Quickly, the OLD Scattergun Tech, held up fine, now that the fella in NW AR owns ST, the finish is not the same , nor does it hold up.

[Titan6]

Now that we're friends and since you have so much money, can you spare a thousand dollars for a cup of coffee? I like fresh coffee so I want to drink it in Brazil. You're rich. You won't miss a grand here or there. Poor people like me need to rely on wealthy people like you for the finer things in life.

I always knew Hairless was a closet socialist. Especially if he drinks at Starbucks.

I'm curious about whether the Marine Magnum can be stored on a boat and left there without care or whether it requires frequent maintenance.

My experience has been limited to finding rusty ones at gunshows. So they do rust, but how that came to be I do not know. I remember when they first came out at my gun shop back in 91' and thinking "I have got to get me one of those". They were only about $215 NiB. Instead I bought a Bennelli that I no longer have. Next year the prices were over $300 and they didn't seem as appealing anymore. Now the dealers want $400 for the old rusty ones?....!