[Ioweegian]

First Post:

Grizzly Bear Sidearm Question

My (20 something) son who loves hunting is considering an Alaska Moose trip. He will need a backup revolver or pistol for potential dangerous Grizzly encounters (yes a rifle or shotgun would come first but I am specifically asking about a backup sidearm here) and he will and has asked advice from Dad (me). He is experienced with a rifle, a bow a pistol and revolver.

I was thinking a 10mm pistol would be OK for Black Bear but too small in Grizzly country. The .44 magnum is also a little smaller than we’d like for Griz. Basically I was thinking along the lines of a DA revolver chambered in .454 Casull, a .480 Ruger, maybe a .460 S&W, or even a 500 S&W Magnum.

We like the idea of the .460 being capable of taking .454 Casulls for lower 48 hunting back up in Black Bear country (he’s already taken a Blackie with a bow in the past) and the .460 taking .45 LC ammo for plinking (and even .45 LC + P is pretty close ballistics to a .44 magnum if the area/situation called for that). We like the versatility that the .460 offers (and the relatively cheap practice ammo in .45 LC).

But we also like the idea of bigger and weightier bullets in the .500. If the NEED ever arises I suppose you’d want as big of a gun as you can shoot. If the need NEVER arises I suppose you’d want something substantially smaller. But of course you never know.

We like the .454 in a Super Redhawk as it looks like it will last forever, take 6 rounds, etc.

Kinda wish Ruger would make the 480 Ruger to be able to take .475 Linebaugh (a sort of “.480 long” from what I have been told) and would also have a smaller plinking ammo available (perhaps someday they will come up with a “.480 special” for less expensive and less explosive practice rounds).

I suppose we could consider a pistol such as LAR Grizzly in .45 Win. if they were still making them but we would probably not go that route at this time due to availability issues.

We would probably be less inclined to get a shorter barrel. More likely utilize a 6-7.5 inch barrel.

So many choices and fine firearms available these days. These are the thoughts we have been considering.

Anyway I thought you’d have good ideas here. Perhaps some reasons against some of the ideas we thought of above, or some thoughts to affirm what we’ve come up with too. Some altogether different ideas would be welcome as well. We may start another thread on Ammo for this later (Garrett Ammo Cartridge looks great, but selection of caliber sizes available is quite limited).

I am sure there are searches I could have done here but am not too savvy with this. Besides the .500/.460 rounds are relatively new and may not even be mentioned on an older post.

Somebody’s going to say get one of each. How bout 2 of each? We certainly wish we could.

Your input please?

[mnrivrat]

If the gun is dedicated to be used as grizzly protection I think I would give strong consideration to a 4 inch S&W in the .500 cartridge.

The reality is that one can make a case for whatever personal preference they have in the area of heavy caliber handguns. And most do, and they may be along shortly. There are several very good choices and you mentioned more than a couple yourself.

Most people (practicaly all) have no experience in self protection from a good size bear, so much of what one will get for response is speculation (and those personal preference thingy's mentioned) . I have only hunted & taken black bear , which is no comparison .

[gggman]

Maybe I'm being naive, but a .44 magnum isn't enough gun for a grizzly ?

[Mainsail]

Huh, in the old west the cowboys regularly took down steer and horses, along with the occasional bear, with the 45 long colt. Maybe the bears got bigger since then.

[RNB65]

Maybe I'm being naive, but a .44 magnum isn't enough gun for a grizzly?

No, not if he's charging you. A grizz charging at 30MPH presents a very small target. You basically have to make a headshot to the brain to stop him as the massive shoulders, legs, and fur provide plenty of protection to internal organs. A very tough shot under the best of circumstances.

A shotgun with slugs is th preferred anti-grizz weapon. If he's going to carry a pistol, there's no such thing as too big.

[Eyesac]

I know it wasn't the question, but what rifle is he going to have? By that I mean, if he's carrying a semi-auto 7mm mag than I'd say just carry a .44mag as a last line of defense. But if he's going to tromp around w/ a black powder rifle or something useless like that, I'd carry the biggest handgun I could...

[roscoe]

People are going to come up with big revolvers, and I carry one myself in bear country, but I have been thinking that a Glock 20, with 15 200 grain hardcast loads might be the best choice. It is probably the only gun that would give both a decent load and a chance for follow-up shots. I don't trust myself to hit that charging grizzly on the first shot, personally.

[WRB05]

.460 smithy is enough to give em a good headache...id prefer a 50 BMG with incendiary rounds however...72523

[KBintheSLC]

People are going to come up with big revolvers, and I carry one myself in bear country, but I have been thinking that a Glock 20, with 15 200 grain hardcast loads might be the best choice.

I would stay away from auto calibers. They are designed for a much smaller and weaker species. Anything from a .44 mag and larger would work fine. A .500SW mag would be ideal. You need both weight and velocity to drop a grizzly quickly. If you only have one of these elements, it will likely kill you before it runs away and bleeds to death.

[mpmarty]

Use cast bullets lubricated with bacon fat. That way you revolver shooters can drop your empty gun and hope the griz stops long enough to sniff the gun for you to vamoose. You don't drop a griz with a head shot unless you find one sleeping. You need multiple fast follow up shots with the intent of breaking him down before he reaches you. Shoulders, hips, anything to stop the charge, kill him after he's down. I would probably prefer the 10mm with the hard cast or fmj 200gr and sixteen of them in the ready to go mode and another fifteen in a spare magazine.

In any case, no pistol will achieve the three thousand plus pounds of muzzle energy a good 450 Marlin load produces from a rifle and that would be my preference over any hand cannon.

[DFW1911]

Anything from a .44 mag and larger would work fine.

+1; a .44 loaded w/ 305 grain CorBons is my backup when I'm in Alaska.

Another important criteria is the material the firearm is made of. We go to the S/E every year which is a rain forest, so it's constantly raining, a few guns always get a dose (sometimes full submerged) of saltwater and sand. Just something to keep in mind when he's trying to decide if he's bringing a cleaning kit.

Also, for what it's worth, we see Brown Bear of various sizes from varying distances every year. Make sure he knows the "rules" on how to act in Grizzly country (especially traveling in groups if possible).

Of all the times I've been there, we only came "close" to shooting a Brown Bear one time, but it was a pretty lazy false charge and we were successful in screaming at it until it left.

Oh, and don't forget that a moose can be as dangerous - if not more - than a bear.

I hope he has fun - it's an adventure he'll not forget anytime soon. I've attached some helpful links; the first one is how to travel in bear country, the other shows where / when bear attacks have occurred. Of the two, please make him read the first one!

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/safety/safeconduct.htm

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/attacks/bear-human_conflicts.htm

Take care,
DFW1911

P.S. I attached a photo of a couple of yearlings who were pretty fun to watch as they tried to fish. When they made our way to us a good "GO AWAY" was enough to send them a runnin!

[doc2rn]

Doesn't one of the THR members have a revolver chambered in .45-70? That would be the way to go.

[1911NM]

Naw, doesn't take much of a gun to kneecap whomever I am with. Just enough to outrun 'em.












j/k :D

[GBExpat]

Maybe I'm being naive, but a .44 magnum isn't enough gun for a grizzly ? From what I have read you can use a .44Mag on a charging Griz but, for comfort, you really should grind off the front sight.



Sorry, but when this subject pops up, somebody has to say that ... ;)

[MikePGS]

From what I have read you can use a .44Mag on a charging Griz but, for comfort, you really should grind off the front sight.
:Chuckles:

In the latest Glock magazine/catalog, they relate the story of someone unloading a G22 full of 180 grain's into a black bear, killing it. That being said, I would personally take the largest gun I could shoot comfortably as a backup, in spite of the weight. Also you should post this in the Hunting forum to, since those guys will probably have some pretty good insight into this particular problem.

[DENALI]

:eek: I lived much of my life in the interior of Alaska and of course have developed my own strong opinion's on "Grizzly guns". It's always a great source of amusement and fun for everyone involved in the discussion.
I used to carry a Ruger Redhawk in a chest rig when hunting, hiking and or fishing.
Of all the encounters I've had with Alaskan Brown/Grizzly bears only one actually scared me. I was walking the Rainbow trail which is just 20 minutes south of Anchorage and runs along cook inlet with my dog. I was only about 1-mile off of the seward hwy, when I heard a large thrashing noise that I took to be a moose, when out of the alders literally 15-feet in front of us emerged a very large coastal brown bear who then stopped and turned towards me and the dog, and just sat there looking at us. He woofed at me twice and I easily watched drool and snot running from both nostrils and lips. He never overtly threatened myself or the dog, but the proximity and the bruins size scared the hell out of me. And then he just barreled off into the alders and was gone. Looking back, I'd say he was damn close to the size of my subaru wagon, more or less, you know thats how close he was and the immpression he left me with. At any rate I was completely at his mercy, and I never even thought about the .44 magnum I was packing, nor am I foolish enough to think it would have stopped him if he charged. It all happened so fast, there was no sound of him until I bolted him from the alders, he was so close, it was very humbling! The only Grizzly guns that are reliable to your stated purpose are way to big for such tight spaces and encounters to bring them to bear(so to speak). I ended up slinging a pistol gripped shotgun after that when I went by myself into the bush or just hiking trails with one of the dogs.
My long winded point? No pistol is enough to accomplish what you're tasking it with in this type of encounter, unless of course to administer pain relief, assuming you're still able....Good luck and have fun....;)

[p85]

carry whatever you feel comfortable with to shoot yourself just before the bruin decides to eat you.:evil:

[mgregg85]

I guess if I had my choice I would be carrying this little honey.

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Bushwacker/Bushwacker2.jpg

4+1 of .45/70 or .457 Magnum. I'd be loading it with garrets hardcast loads.

[Magnum.35744]

Personally I would go with the Taurus Raging Bull .454 Casull revolver. SS finish with a 6 1/2 Inch Barrel should do you well! Loaded very hot:what:! Hope this helps, and I wish your son a safe trip ;).

[WoofersInc]

Last time in bear country was a while but I took my Desert Eagle 50AE. We were backpacking and I used a thigh rig. Fast reloads and good stopping power. Since that time I have gotten a .454 Casull. That would be my choice now.

[GJgo]

Take this for what it's worth- I have fired my .44 mag, my .460 mag, and a friend's .500 mag into thick plate steel at 25 yds.

The .44 scuffed the paint.
The .460 made a cute little dent in the steel.
The .500 made a BIG SCARY dent in the steel.

When I'm trouncing around the woods in my state, I carry my .44.
I sold the .460.
If I ever go to Alaska I will first purchase a .500, if I deem a shotgun to be too cumbersome for what I'm doing there.

[mewachee]

I have a Ruger Alaskan 454. If you want to kill a 1000 lb bear through the head, there are better weapons. But, if you want a gun that will kill that bear, Draw easily and quickly, be comfortable to carry on your hip and not in your pack, sturdy and affordable; then I say get the Alaskan.

I considered the .460, but eventually I would have left it in my pack, at camp, then in the car. Eventually it would have been left home. I hunt out side of Yellowstone. Our Grizzlies aren't as big as browns, but they are still grizzlies.

There is a discussion on this weapon and how to load it on a thread here,

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=336165

[nitestocker]

i use a 44 mag ruger redhawk and i use randy garrett ammo 330 gr hammerhead +P check it out on hi site :D its pretty close to a 454 in a smaller package

[RustyShackelford]

I'd look into the large frame shrort barrel Ruger Super Redhawk DA revolvers; www.ruger.com www.gunsamerica.com or maybe the S&W line of N frame snub .44magnum/.500S&W/etc DA revolvers...

The Ruger can get a great Crimsontrace lasergrip and is highly rugged, :D. Either the .454 or .44magnum would fill the bill for an AK area hunt. These DA revolvers can also take the smaller .45LC rounds or .44spl for those two-legged threats that your son may encounter...;).

The S&W models can get a lasergrip too but I'm not crazy about the built in trigger lock, :rolleyes:. I've read of a few magnum/revolver shooters who had TL model S&Ws crap out or break down on them. :uhoh: On the range is okay but in a critical incident, I'd say; "oh %&*#!!!

Rusty S
www.lasersights.com www.crimsontrace.com

[Ioweegian]

mnrivrat, you are absolutely right. Most folks have no experience in self protection from a good size bear. We don’t either (hunting which is what we have done, is of course different from being charged or stalked).

Eyesac. Haven’t decided on rifle yet. He would likely hunt with a bow and carry an 18 inch 870 with slugs for his long gun but I don’t know that and now he’s off at college – but we will discuss this. I am actually urging him to get a guide (then the guide can worry about that at least in some cases. But we looked into the cost and it is quite expensive for that level of guidance. I can see why they call it “the trip of a lifetime”). Right now he’s in the “thinking stages” and it is a lot of fun to even think about.

Even if the Glock 20 is relatively small (10mm), I like the idea of being able to get multiple shots with it. I know a central nervous system shot is pretty much required at short range (charging situation). But I like the idea of stopping the bear even better and am leaning toward recommending the .500 S&W. As KBintheSLE said “You need both weight and velocity to drop a grizzly quickly.” I am taking this advice to heart. But I sure like that 10mm with the right bullets.

I was talking to a S&W R&D person on the phone shortly after they (the .500s) came out. I suggested to him a shorter barrel and you could just hear the angst in his voice objecting about the loss of velocity as the barrel length went down. I think he was thinking about it as a hunting gun (“take your time, ready aim, fire”) though and not a defense gun (“shoot NOW or forever hold your peace!!”). Actually from our discussion I was quite surprised when several months later S&W DID come out with a shorter barreled version.

Perhaps the 10mm would be good to get for Blackie backup. Heck a 10mm would just plain be fun to have anyway (alas the limited funds issue).

DFW 1911. Good points about corrosion resistance/cleaning. And we have discussed the Moose charge aspect too. Les Stroud says the Moose is the most dangerous of all animals in Canada (if I recall it was the Bull Moose during the rut but I may be wrong) regarding charges. The same reasoning of course would hold as true in Alaska. Also thanks for the links. I read one of Herrero’s books (“Bear Attacks Their Causes and Avoidance”). A fine read. Also read “Alaska Bear Tales” (Larry Kniut) also a fine read and very thrilling. A lot of these Bear attack victims are well armed but never even get a shot off. Something else to think about I guess. These books would get me laying in bed at night thinking for long periods of time about what I would do in some of these situations (and what I wouldn’t do). Maybe someone ought to begin a thread on the most exciting bear books too.

mgregg85. I have a friend from Italy and he has much more knowledge than I ever will regarding firearms. He too (for a rifle) likes the 45/70 (in a Marlin). He liked the .454 for a sidearm but we had that discussion before the .500 and .460 came out. Perhaps he feels different now. Interestingly as an aside, he states that in Italy, the gun controllers have not only disarmed the people but the next logical step is being carried out – disarming the police (with some exceptions). He said “they give them a stick”! “The only ones with guns are the criminals!” That is why airguns are popular over there [if I recall this discussion correctly – it was about 5 or 6 years ago] but even those airguns are now being scrutinized). He said that is how gun controlling works. First the common citizens and eventually the law enforcement personnel get disarmed! I hadn’t even thought of that.

GJgo, I’ll keep what you said in mind (“The .44 scuffed the paint.
The .460 made a cute little dent in the steel.
The .500 made a BIG SCARY dent in the steel.”). Speaks volumes.

mewachee, I saw that thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=336165 ). Mephis stated:

Mephis “Was browsing google and found this thread, so I thought I'd register and give my 2cents.
I started loading for the .454 with an alaskan as well and eventually got tired of the low performance the 2.5" barrel was ending up with.
I traded it in for a used 7.5" at a loss and was very happy with the result. It's no harder to handle or any more awkward than the alaskan, in a practical sense. The only thing I miss was being able to CCW . . .”

Mephis’ post was one of the opinions I heard that made me think twice about a shorter barrel. The tradeoff here would be quickness though. The shorter barrel would be quicker for the first shot, the longer barrel would have more velocity. Where the perfect place is on the curve I just don’t know.

These opinions are very informative. Please keep the info flowing, as this is a fascinating subject.

Lots to think about so far.

[Sixtigers]

I'll throw in my .02, though I must preface by saying I'm not a hunter.

I fired my first S&W 4" 500 last weekend, on loan from a friend at work (we were teaching his girlfriend to shoot--it's easy when we have my girlfriend there, who loves to shoot).

That's a hell of a gun. I'm 5'11", 300 pounds (yeah, short and fat), and there was no quick follow-up shots from me. I don't know about a panic situation, but even with the porting, that thing kicks something fierce with full-size loads.

I could maybe get off one shot at a moving target, but I'd lose sight picture as soon as I fired. There was no stopping that monster's muzzle rise.

Just something to think about...I guess if the first shot did enough damage, you wouldn't need the second...but then we'd all be carrying T/Cs.

Good luck with your choice!

[TimboKhan]

.44 and up is, as many others have stated, the way to go, but make sure that he runs a bunch of rounds through it first. Chances are he won't have to use it, but finding out that it shoots high or that it is so uncomfortable fire that he can't shoot it well when a bear is charging him is not so good. Revolvers are the way to go.

[Dravur]

Grizzly Bear Sidearm Question

Don't give a Grizzly Bear a Sidearm. That's just Whack, man!

[RandyB]

For me the critera would be:

1. What can a most accurately shoot? I would rather shoot a .357 with a 180 grain JSP into a bears skull, than miss with a .50 S&W if that was all the gun I could handle.
2. Size. Its a backup gun, not a primary. A big hogleg doesn't do you any good if you don't carry it, nor if its so cumbersome that I can't do my primary part of the trip (hunt/fish/hike/etc.)
3. Durable. I am hard on my hunting equipment, esp. handguns and it needs to work period.

That being said, and the facct that your son is hunting with a powerful enough rifle to take a moose, I would opt for the following:

The Ruger Rehawk .44 with a 4 inch barrel, or simliar Taurus, S&W in stainless. Loaded with a 300 grain pill it will penetrate a bears skull and not be too cumbersome to carry. What I would like is a .460 or .454 with a 4 inch barrel in the redhawk/super redhawk frame, then loaded with what I could fire accurately.
The bottom line if I'm hunting with a rifle, that is what I would be shooting a bear with, not a handgun. For that matter at camp a good 12 Ga. with slugs would be my 1st choice. The handgun would be my last line of defense in a bear attack.

[mewachee]

Ioweegian, I believe that if you are not a resident of Alaska, you must hunt with a guide or a resident. I have not confirmed this, but I am 80% sure of it.

RandyB, I am not a bear expert, but I play one on tv. It is interesting how shooters from out east think about bears. Prior to getting my Alaskan, I seriously ask 100 people there opinions. Of course I got a different answer from everyone I asked. Here is what I think is important to know.

Depending on your bear, your vital target is about the size of a man's when charging.

When we shoot a charging bear, we intend to stop, not only kill. Remember when a bear charges it's adrenalin is through the roof. It is like a addict on meth.

The skull is like a steel plate, a thick plate, in the middle of the target. The 357 might crack it, but probably deflect. Now you have a very angry bear on meth.

If you hit a shoulder, you may get one lung, that will only slow him a little.


This sounds like a lecture, but it is the lecture I give my self every time I think of bears.

A lot of guys here have said that the 44 is the way to go, When you take a 7.5 in 44 and compare to the 2.5 in alaskan Even though the alaskan has a loss in its own potential energy, because of the short barrel, it has an increase of 40 % of energy over the 44.

I want a 500 and haven't shot it, but I believe that I will always carry the alaskan. the 500 is a lot of metal to settle down for the shot.

The rifle/shotgun would be best, if it was in your hands, but ask someone to surprise you to draw a shoulder slung shotgun, a half second makes a huge difference. Plus, the alaskan can be worn day and night if necessary, but who wouldn't leave a shotgun outsite the tent while you change, or up against a tree while you cook your bear bait.

Here is a good test: Throw 40 oz. in your holster for a few hours, then up it to 70 oz. Then go for a run or a hike up a hill. I believe weight is a huge factor in accessing your weapon and stabilizing. Remember, this is not for hunting, it is for stopping.

[Harley Quinn]

Ioweegian,
I believe the 10 mm is a good idea, it has numerous rounds available, is able to be controlled for numerous follow up shots. The main shooter is the rifle or a back up guide or friend. The Glock 20 is a good one for your sons needs imho:uhoh:

[Cosmoline]

There are about 1,000 threads on this.

My experience has been that the big boomer handguns of .454 size and over are too bulky and too difficult for most folks to shoot in a hurry to be effective as a backup sidearm. Whatever you carry you must first of all carry it, and you must be able to draw and fire rapid fire with high accuracy at a moving target. If you're far better with a .357 than a .44 mag, carry the .357. Just load it with 180 or 200 grain hardcast solids.

[Cosmoline]

Maybe I'm being naive, but a .44 magnum isn't enough gun for a grizzly?

You're not naive at all. The "little" .44 Mag has been used to stop attacking brown bears in Alaska, and remains extremely popular. Contrary to conventional wisdom of clerks, bears are not bullet proof. Whether with a .44 mag or a .500 S&W placement is critical.

The .44 Mag is the aurea mediocritas of field guns. But you have to practice a lot with whatever you use and be able to draw and fire accurately FAST. When bear move in they're amazingly quick, not at all like the lumbering things in the movies. Thankfully attacks are very rare and most encounters end with the bear running off.

[762plinkster]

i have never been hunting, but should't your son find a handgun he is comfortable with?

i have fired a desert eagle 50cal and thats too much for my 5'7" 150lb body

is he going to be alone? and what kind of rifle?

[igorts]

Quote:
Maybe I'm being naive, but a .44 magnum isn't enough gun for a grizzly?
No, not if he's charging you. A grizz charging at 30MPH presents a very small target. You basically have to make a headshot to the brain to stop him as the massive shoulders, legs, and fur provide plenty of protection to internal organs. A very tough shot under the best of circumstances.

Does a bigger caliber makes a Grizz bigger target?

[41magsnub]

For the revolver guys it's 5 for the bear, 1 for me

[Ioweegian]

mewachee quote: “Ioweegian, I believe that if you are not a resident of Alaska, you must hunt with a guide or a resident. I have not confirmed this, but I am 80% sure of it.”

This may be true, but the last time I asked around (haven’t taken the other steps yet – still in the idea or early planning phase) non-residents needed a guide for Bighorn Sheep and Grizzly (an exception is for military personnel that are stationed there which he is not) but not for Moose.

Even if he has a guide, some of those trips have good guide packages, others are not so comprehensive. Also even if he has a guide, he will still carry a backup (although it will be of less importance with a guide). Sometimes the guides get attacked by the Bears too. Things can get pretty hectic pretty fast.

Haven’t decided on the guide issue yet although I do favor him hiring one.

Cosmoline, you mentioned there are many threads on this subject. I am pretty low power when it comes to using search engines. Would you be so kind as to give me several links here? Perhaps some search entry phrases as well so I could do my own search in the future? Thank you in advance.

The 10mm with multiple shots is very inviting. But many people in this situation only get one shot. This is part of the decision dilemma of course. Smaller caliber, easier to put out follow-up shots. Larger caliber, more stopping power. Interesting to think about.

Nobody is suggesting that a rifle/shotgun wouldn’t come first. It does. The sidearm is a backup for when you get separated from a long gun or something else (Murphy’s Law) goes awry. If he is shooting a Moose with his bow, and for example the Moose charges him, he may not have time to get his long gun up. He may not even have time to get his sidearm up either. When thinking about the possibilities though, a backup side arm is at least some insurance. I know Moose are very dangerous but we keep thinking about the Grizzly situation. Perhaps it is the reputation the Grizzly enjoys that keeps us thinking about the Bears, but whatever it is, it is certainly a concern and as most of you would agree, shouldn’t be overlooked.

[Albatross]

I have vast experience with brown bears and I can tell you exactly what your son should take for bear protection:

1) Common wood sense (lacking that a guide)
2) A rifle (or that 870 you mentioned)
3) Whatever handgun he already owns (the lighter the better).
4) Bear spray to discourage a curious bear

Packing around a huge revolver in .600 nitro (or whatever) will just be a big drag or seeing he's moose hunting, an anchor cause he'll likely take an accidental dip.

I know it is fun to think about bears as monster killing machines stalking about lusting for human flesh, but the reality is something else entirely.

You and your son should be most concerned about shot placement on that moose, because a wounded moose is bad news.

[DENALI]

Mr Ioweegian, you seem committed to your task, here's some good advice. If it was me, I'd look to the Marlin guide gun in 45/70 with a really good sling. You may also look to S&W or Ruger for a short barreled .357 or .44 magnum, the S&W 386 PD strikes me as an excellent bush buddy. You may want to contact Steve Smith of Alaskan Guns & Ammo, he's in Fairbanks and will point you to one of several guides and I believe he's got at least some other good advice as well, I'll PM you his phone #.

[AKGuy]

I fly medevac across the state of Alaska and carry an EAA Witness 10mm loaded with 200gr cor-bon's // buffalo bore rounds...on the basis of Alaska folks who oughtta know. FWIW...coming from someone who has the need to know but hopefully never needs to find out firsthand.

[mewachee]

I have no experience with 10 mm, however it seems insufficient when it comes to energy and TKO. The 10mm data comes from my Hornady reloading book. I am using 200 g. bullet going 1150 fps, which seems fast for this combo. For the Alaskan, I am using my data; 335 WLNGC going 1250 fps. This is not my hottest load.

Weapon - Weight - Energy - Tko
10mm - 33 oz - 587 ft/lb - 13
Alaskan - 41 oz - 1,163 ft/lb - 26

The 10mm is 8.1 in, while the Alaskan is 7-5/8 in. Other than the extra 8 oz, I don't see the Alaskan as being clumsy, especially with the Hogue grips (they are like stickum).

My second weapon is my Alaskan. Even when I am bow hunting. If a bear is watching you and showing aggression, all the motion used to go for a rifle that is not already in your hands will intensify the situation more. A grizzly wants to see passiveness, not fast motions.

I can't imagine carrying three major weapons, but even if I saw this as a necessity the shotgun/rifle would be third while bow hunting.

One more thing, a scope on a defensive weapon could get you killed.

[roscoe]

There is more to the equation than just muzzle energy. Important factors include the composition of the slug (hardcast penetrates better), sectional density, and meplat size. The 230 grain Doubletap hardcast load going 1120 (or the 200 grain going 1300) from the Glock 20 penetrates and does not deform, but still allows reasonable follow-up shots. There is no doubt that the .454 is hot (although the load you listed is pretty close to .45 +P), but if that one shot does not do the trick . . .

Like I said, however, I carry a .45 Blackhawk because that is what I own.

[Harley Quinn]

The 10mm with multiple shots is very inviting. But many people in this situation only get one shot. This is part of the decision dilemma of course. Smaller caliber, easier to put out follow-up shots. Larger caliber, more stopping power. Interesting to think about.

I have to tell you the amount of firepower (bullets down range) is awesome with the 10 mm Glock 20 auto, and controlable. Practice and you can unload it in a few seconds if need be :uhoh: And on target if you practice:) second and third shots are very easy to contol.

Extra mags is another thing that makes it a good weapon for the brush, I would not slight this weapon in the least. Your big guns are something that few can shoot even with practice I have noticed, especially in a hurry. Common sense is what is needed here. One of the reasons for the lighter penetrating rounds of 223 and its ability to unload so many on target.

Similar situation with this topic.

HQ

[nitestocker]

i just came back from canada in oct. we were up in churchhill seeing the polar bears my cousin has canser and was picked by make a wish to go there that was his wish any way most of the guys there used the 44 mag as there back up gun the ruger the rifles were 416, 375 and a 454 and they carry them on the busses he had a lot of fun the bigest bear we seen was almost 10 feet tall and pushing 900 pounds the guide saud that after winter he would gain 500 more pounds 1400 big bear

[shooter429]

Go with the gun he can shoot best. I would rather have the extra round of .44 or .454. Personally, I would pick a 3-4" .44 magnum and stoke it with 330-340 grain +ps by Garrett of BB, if that is too much recoil or he wants a smaller gun, I'd go with the 2.5" SRH Alaskan or S&W Trail Boss and load the Garrett 310 Grain Defender.

Shooter429

[paul105]

Many calibers/platforms (from 9mm up) have been successfully used to defend against grizzly attacks. Also unsuccessfully I might add.

Every body is going to have an opinion on this. For 99.9%+ of us, it is just that, an opinion. There probably aren't very many people who have been involved in a bear attack, let alone enough attacks to give a statistically relevant reply. JJ Hack over on graybeardoutdoors.com appears to have substantial first hand experience. Read "Rolltide's" (reply #25) -- the quoted post is from JJ Hack on this link http://www.go2gbo.com/forums//index.php/topic,89450.0.html

This relates mostly to Black Bears, but there is some good info on Brownies if you read thru the material.

I would think that your choice (caliber/bullet) would also depend on whether the Grizzly's in question are Coast Brown bears, or interior grizzlys.

Also, if you can get a hold of some of Ross Siefried's old articles -- his results with the .475 Linebaugh on big critters (African and Asian Buffalo) are really impressive.

My son and I bow hunt elk here in Montana. Every year, people (like 6 this last year) get mauled or killed by black and/or grizzly bears. You are more likely to be attacked when bow hunting -- you smell like elk, you may be using decoys, you are making elk sounds, and you are trying not to be seen. The grizzlies here in Montana can go 800 or 900 lbs (unusually large bears), and are at their peak weight in the fall, just before hibernation.

When bow hunting, I carry a S&W M329 .44 Mag loaded with 250gr Hardcast bullets. I have a .475 Linebaug Freedom Arms 6", but it is just much extra weight to be packing around the mountains as a "backup" gun. I also like the double action feature of the 329. I shoot both of these guns a lot (25 to 50 rounds a day, 5 days a week, year around), so I feel reasonably confident in my ability to hit something if given time.

If I was in an area that had coastal brown bears I'd probably opt for the S&W 500 Mag 4" and deal with the weight.

I'd always feel more comfortable with a handgun than without, realizing of course that anything can happen and you may be unable to get the gun out because you were surprised or attacked from behind, or ????.

We always figured to get hurt, but hope to kill the attacker before it kills us.

Just my opinion - no relevant personal experience.

Tell your son to have a great time.

Paul

[AKGuy]

Well, the folks here in AK--the ones who grew up here and the ones who have spent time in the bush--almost unanimously voted for the 10mm
with heavy dense rounds as the best compromise between controllability, number of rounds available to shoot, lethality, and portability. For me, I can
shoot it pretty darn well, meaning accurately and controllably, and it is of a size and configuration that won't eventually leave me leaving it behind as too heavy, awkward, etc--pretty useless to have a cannon capable of sinking a battleship that you can't shoot, are reluctant to practice, with, and is just a pain in the rear to lug around...again, fwiw.

[XD-40 Shooter]

I'd go with the Ruger Redhawk in 45 Colt +P, 300 grain or heavier. As has been mentioned here before, I'd rather be carrying a shotgun on a sling, than a handgun on my hip. This would apply to a non-hunting scenario, such as hiking in bear country. Buffalo Bore has several loads that push the 45 Colt up to around 1200 ft lbs of energy.

If I were actually hunting grizz, I would sure hope the 338 win mag would take him down, before a handgun became necessary. You know what they say, save the last round for yourself.:eek::uhoh:

[ArchAngelCD]

All the talk about the 454 Casull, .460 Magnum, 500 Magnum and 45-70 Gov't makes me a little worried. I'm guessing most of the people suggesting those calibers mean well but have never fired those calibers under stress. Like already said buy a few in this thread, you will have to draw and rapidly fire the handgun you are carrying and do so under extreme stress. You will have to hit a fast moving object on top of all of this. IMO a 5" .44 Magnum loaded with heavy hard cast bullets will do a good job as a backup sidearm because it's a heavy round but not so heavy as to prevent you from doing all you will need to do to save your life.

I would also suggest carrying Bear Spray (http://www.udap.com/). I'm not talking about just any pepper spray but something made for Bear protection that will shoot a sustained stream over 30 feet like the one I linked to. There are others on the market but this is one of the best know.

[Ioweegian]

paul105, Quote: . . . . from JJ Hack on this link http://www.go2gbo.com/forums//index....c,89450.0.html . . . .


paul105, I tried the web address and it was a dead link. Would you mind re posting it?

Thank you

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Many years ago in western Montana, a friend and I were hunting grouse. He had a 16 and I had a 20, both single-shot shotguns. We'd hiked up a logging road to get above a little meadow & where the road crossed a creek, we turned left & started into about 30 yards of brush & light trees to get to the top of the meadow. The creek was on our right hand side, just a little step-over run of water. 'Bout halfway through the brush we came upon a small clearing, maybe the size of a queen bed. There were two bear beds in it. There was a steaming fresh pile of bear scat on the far right hand edge of the clearing. There was also a irritated grunt, accompanied by halitosis that came from my immediate right, just in the creek area which was screened from me by heavy brush & trees. We thereupon set the world's record brush dash back to the vehicle. Mr. Griz wasn't hungry that time. No, there was no possibility that it was a black bear. Black bear do not survive long in griz habitat.

My current heavy packin' pistol is a .475 Linebaugh. The no-fun at all to shoot load launches a 425 grain hard cast out the 6" barrel at 1250 fps. I have a great respect for the big bears & do everything I can to avoid them. I've never had another encounter anywhere near that close that I know of. But it's very hard to believe you've got too much pistol when you do get a "close encounter".

900F

[paul105]

Ioweegian,

paul105, Quote: . . . . from JJ Hack on this link http://www.go2gbo.com/forums//index....c,89450.0.html . . . .


paul105, I tried the web address and it was a dead link. Would you mind re posting it?

Thank you



Try this -- if case it doesn't work, check your PM

RollTide reply #25

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums//index.php/topic,89450.0.html


Paul

[kayakersteve]

S&W 460V
http://http://www.kayakforfun.com/images/March_07_E31.jpg

[jeepmor]

From the guy IN Alaska
I ended up slinging a pistol gripped shotgun after that when I went by myself into the bush or just hiking trails with one of the dogs.

I'd take extra ammo for the rifle I'm hunting with, and a slip on rifle stock extra ammo holder. Lighter than a pistol if you sling your rifle right, it'll be ready just as quick. If hiking alone or with dogs, I'd carry the pistol gripped shotgun.

Sorry, can't recommend a handgun for a subaru sized bear.

[cookekdjr]

Never been to Alaska. But done alot of research on this. Here is what I've found.
1. The gun must be light enough to be an "always" gun. So you will always have it with you. Any sidearm that does not fit this bill is useless in this role.
2. Bullet selection is as important as caliber selection. Forget hp's and sp's. You want hard cast lead bullets that will not expand, but will instead penetrate when they hit the heavy thick bones of the bear. FMJ's have worked (in 9mm, even!) but hard cast is the way to go if its available.
3. Remember the purpose of the weapon: to fight your way back to your long gun, or more probably, to slow down the bear enough for one of your companions to finish him off with his long gun.
Just my two cents.
-David

[Rossi20]

I say a SERBU sshortie with a knoxx breachers grip.

[ArchAngelCD]

Just to add to my first post and to agree with the others recommending a Hard Cast bullet, there are a few companies selling Hard Cast ammo but I think the best the Grizzly Cartridge Company (http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/-strse-Grizzly-Cartridge/Categories.bok). They make a quality hunting round that will serve you well. There is another company which makes 45-70 Gov't rounds and .44 Magnum rounds too, it's the Garrett Cartridge Company (http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp). I've been told they make good ammo and the bullet they use looks great but I have no personal experience with their products.

[CB900F]

Fella's;

I use Cast Performance bullets, and load my own.

900F

[Stevie-Ray]

I agree about the 10mm for black bears and it's what I use in this state. For Grizzly bears though, I don't think I'd carry less than my SAR-48. Maybe 3 or 4 20rd mags, too. Sorry but I doubt I'd put myself in that situation at all. Too chicken.

The .460 or .500 S&W sounds about right.

[mewachee]

Sometimes these discussions seem silly, when the question is a serious one.

It's like the question, "How do you eat an elephant?" Answer, "One bite at a time. NOT well, I would start with the ear. That's wrong, I would start with the shoulder. No you have it all wrong, I don't like elephant.

This question is not how to kill a bear standing still, broadside, picking berries, enjoying the sunny day. The answer to that question is, shoot it with an arrow, or walk a way carefully.

If the question is, When I have a brown coming down on me at 30 mph, with a relatively small target, with a plate size head/shield, which is driven by adrenalin and will not run because you put another hole in it? The answer is, use what ever you have at the time. However, this is not the question.

The real question here is, "How do you prepare for a brown coming down on me..." The answer is use your head. That bear is not going to stop because of flesh wounds, it will only stop when it's central nervous system stops. Even a heart shot isn't a guaranty.

I know you can kill a whitetail with a 22 long, because I know someone who did it. I think he is an idiot, but at least he knew that the deer wasn't going to come and get him.

I have read in this thread, don't use anything less than a shotgun and anything larger than a 9mm will do. How can they both be true. You need to draw your weapon from storage, how long will that take. The shotgun suffers here, unless you are willing to carry at the ready 100% of the time. You also need a weapon that will generate a wound that will kill inside a second (If you know how to shoot it, and get lucky enough to do what you need to).

Worst case scenario: On your trip, a 1200 lb boar will attack you. He has a running start at you from 25 yards before you see him. He is pissed. Now imagine this happens when you are least prepared. What weapon would best serve you? What weapon give you a better chance at survival than all others?

Let's throw out the silly answers, and focus on the reasonable. This guy is not asking for a scenario of might work, he is asking, how can I be best prepared.

[paul105]

From an article in Guns & Ammo (Dec 1989) ".475 Revolver Down Under" written by Ross Siefried. Bob is the outfitter who has seen numerous Asian Buffalo (2,000 Lb critters) shot with all manner of rifles.

“Bob Penfold was beginning to believe in the handgun (.475 Linebaugh with 430grs Hardcast LBTs at 1,380 fps). He had seen the .44 Mags and the “short rifles” fail miserably on buffalo. In the beginning he was a bit apprehensive about trying even the .475 on the big beasts. Bob was starting to realize that this wasn’t an ordinary handgun.”

“Two days previously, I had a minor war with an Aussie buff. After three rounds of 1,000 grain, eight-bore bullets through both shoulders, he was still standing, looking for trouble? The reality was, these buffalo weren’t white mice.”

“My first shot had hit exactly where I wanted it. --- It punched through the near shoulder, destroyed the heart, and smashed the off shoulder to pulp before it exited into the gum trees. Bob said he had never seen a .375 H&H hit a bull that hard. At last, with the .475, I have a handgun that isn’t under powered when used on big game.

After my first field experience with the big gun, I have some definite opinions about the usefulness of the .475 cartride. Ifist, it is a specialized tool. When loaded to full power it is right at home against the big or dangerous game. Buffalo, hippos, bears, lions, and moose may be the only animals worthy of its potential. At full power, the recoil is intimidating, making the gun difficult to shoot precisely. Great effort is required for me to master it, applying the bullets precisely enough to be effective. ---- In a tight spot, I would always rather have my .416. But the .475 is effective enough that I would feel as comfortable with it as it is possible to feel when facing unhappy claws and horns.”

[ArchAngelCD]

mewachee,
Your last post is an outstanding one. I talked about shootability in my first post (#49). I highly doubt someone who buys a new very heavy caliber revolver which he/she has never shot before will be able to use that revolver well under extreme pressure.

Also, most people are are ignoring the Bear Spray. A bear has so many olfactory cells in their nose they can smell food from over a mile away. I have seen videos and reports of a bear being rendered unconscious by strong pepper spray. It is so painful to them the actually go into shock.

[Kind of Blued]

I'd say the grizzly bear attack makes the best case for laser grips to date.

A) One more thing to either scare off, confuse, distract, or disorient the bear if you shine it in it's eyes.

B) I, personally, would have a hard time focusing on my front sight with a half-ton chunk of nordic teddy death charging me at 30mph.

[shooter429]

Garrett 330s in a 4" .44 gun can be on your side all day through the woods or in the stream (that's how I roll) They can be economically practiced with and deployed quickly with hopefully satisfactory results (as good as the average handgunner can hope for) More gun is likely too much for the shooter and less, well, just foolish.

Shooter429

[mewachee]

See, this is already sounding more sensible. I personally think that pepper spray is a great product. I don't personally carry, but I should start. I would however go for my Alaskan in an attack. I would use the spray for a nuisance bear, most of our attacks start this way.

One more thing, don't take a dog into known bear country. We had a guy barely survive an attack last year, because his dog went out to harass a bear, then the bear followed the dog back to the hiker. This is why you layer your defense.


As far as shooting under pressure, this is only a factor for the unprepared. If you have practiced the quick draws attempting only acceptable hits. Then you try and image the possible situations, while shooting quickly, not fast. Whatever your choice of weapon is, usually under pressure becomes slow motion. I have even considered how I would act in a dog attack without a weapon. Preparation, including practice, makes more sense.


If you don't know how to use any of these weapons, your chance of success dwindles away.



Shooter429: How much does your 44 weigh, my 454 Alaskan weighs 40 oz, and has as much as a 40% increase in energy. I carry it all day in an "Uncle Mikes holster," Not very attractive, but it does a great job protecting the finish, it rides very well and is easily accessible.

[mewachee]

I wish we could use laser grips here when we are hunting, but you can't; not when you are hunting anyway.

Our Fish and Game thinks guilty until proven otherwise. Even if you're hunting with a bow during a bow only season, F&G will give you a ticket for hunting with an electric devise attached to your weapon. Which make walking out of the hills, in the dark, with the smell of hind quarter wafting behind you? I don't know about you, but I call that bait.

[researchdoc]

.44 mag with hard cast 300 grain plus loads should be just fine in a 4"

[Blakenzy]

Has anyone though about taking a good dog along whle in bear country? A smart dog will probably spot any bear before you do and decrease the likelyhood of a surprize attack. If it's brave and loyal enough it might sacrifice itself by attacking thr bear buying you enough time to shoulder and shoot or run.

[DENALI]

Good to see this thread's still got some life in it. As to pepper sprays,:uhoh:and knocking old coastal brownie out with the "old olfactory" shot, sure hope you're up wind or perhaps it doubles as an excellent seasoning:D. As to dogs on the trail and interacting with Bruin, you better have one xxx damn smart dog for that scenario to play itself out to your favour. As already recounted by myself elsewhere on this thread, I've run into one good size coastal Brownie at close quarters with a pooch(border collie)and remember being scared witless the little girl would decide to play ranch dog thus encouraging Bruin to play apex predator with me...:D

[ArchAngelCD]

DENALI,
Don't laugh at the pepper spray. I'm not talking about a little 1 oz bottle of spray you would use when taking a walk at home to chase away a stray dog, I'm talking about real Bear spray. I posted a link in my first post (#49) but Here (http://www.udap.com/) it is again. This bottle is sold up to 13 oz in size, it will shoot very hot pepper up to 30 feet away. It doesn't shoot a stream of spray but a thick fog of spray quickly the bear can't avoid. It's very effective, just go to the site and really look around the site.

[Sport45]

I can't imagine the laser grip working at all. It seems to me it would be awful hard to finf the dot on a charging bruin. Even harder that aquiring the front sight.

I think the answer is to hire a guide.

Pick a guide you're sure your son can outrun. :)

[mewachee]

The beginning of this thread start with, may have a guide or may not. Personally, I hunt in my back yard (bear country). The guide isn't going to be with him when he takes a crap, he won't standing guard night. You have to first be prepared to count on your self first.


These comments about out running the guide, 5 in the cylinder one for me, ect; I don't get them. I think that American males are slowly evolving into girls. The more you talk about acting like a girl, the more you will act like a girl in one of these situations. Know offense intended girls.

[DENALI]

Uhh ArcAngelCD, Don't laugh at the wind as it can return any aerosol right back to were it came from. I know exactly what the stuff is and even advertised it for a client on KWLF-FM in Fairbanks way back in the early 90's when it was first being developed by some outfit from Montana or Colorado.
I don't recall the gentlemans name but he gave us an excellent demo right in the parking lot were it blew back into all of our faces! Regardless, I've carried it on a number of trips into the White mountains while caribou hunting and also while fishing the Kenai and hiking and fishing in and around the Matsu valley. Anybody still reading this thread, never ever forget, Bear sprays are only as good as the wind at your back, something I promise you folks new to the Alaskan bush experience, you're not likely to have in your favour! None the less it is a good product under optimal conditions.....................

[JESmith]

Denali, I agree with you about bear spray. I used it against black bear on three occasions. The first two times, I got more on myself than the bear. I had to dump my pack and run. The only successful time was against a "kamikazee bear" and that was after she got tired.
For those that have never heard of kamikazee bears.... Black bears are smart critters. When I hike, we always "bear bag". (Load up all your food, cooking utensils, insect repelent, soap, anything that smells back in your pack. Then tie your packs up on a rope line strung between two trees high enough that the bears can't get to it.) Bears figured out that they could climb higher up the tree and then leap out onto the bear bag and break the rope. Quickly learned to go 11mm or bigger climbing rope. Anyway, bear in question tried four times and was unable to bear the rope. Between the noise and the spray and her being tired, I was able to chase her off. Would I trust my life to bear spray? No way.

[Illuminaughty]

Glock 20 with some hard cast rounds would be my choice.

If there's grizzlies about and you're worried, why on earth not carry a rifle for it? An AK or FAL would be perfect.

[Buster_NW]

Tell him to buy a can of bear spray and keep it close. I know this probably isn't the answer you wanted...hell it's not even what you asked, and it's not nearly as much fun as buying a new gun. But when I'm hunting in griz country, I'll take bear spray over a handgun as my last line of defense against a charging griz any day.

[ArchAngelCD]

Would I trust my life to bear spray? No way.
I never said to trust your life to Bear spray alone and in my first 2 posts answered the question asked. The spray recommendation was in addition to all the other tools used to protect yourself, not the only tool.

I'm still guessing those who are dismissing the spray as a tool haven't seen the video on the site. It's a video of a charging Bear. I would love for those who are telling everyone to carry a 500 Magnum to stand in front of the computer with that monster of a revolver on their side. Click the video to start and see if you can draw a 500 Magnum and raise it into the shooting position before the Bear hits the camera. I'm betting you don't get the revolver horizontal let alone squeeze the trigger before the Bear gets you. I'm talking about the video on This (http://www.udap.com/safety.htm) page, not the full length video linked on the first page.

Many tools give you many options. All situations are different and require the proper tool to solve the problem. In the case of the video the spray would have been fast enough to save your life. In other situations a different tool could solve the problem best. WHY WOULD YOU WANT ONLY ONE TOOL IN YOUR TOOLBOX?? (especially when it's your life on the line)

Have fun because I'm done with this thread...

[Harley Quinn]

AACD,
I agree with you even if you are going to go away. The tools in the toolbox is a good way to put it.
The new sprays that are out there seem like a good way to go.

I have even given the hair spray and a lighter some consideration:D
Flame from hornet spray is awesome also:neener: been there done it :what:
As long as you don't blow out the lighter:uhoh:

Not on bears though.;) Cooked eyes and face would be pretty much a stopper.:rolleyes:

HQ

[Ioweegian]

Thank you for so many good replies. Great ideas. Very interesting thinking about the options.

I just want to reiterate, my son would NOT be hunting Grizzly bear with the sidearm.
My son also would NOT use the sidearm as his primary bear defense weapon.

The long arm would be for his primary defense, but there are situations where the long arm is impractical. The most obvious being when it is not in your hand ready to go. I can think of lots of these situations.

Cleaning a Moose, and having a skinning knife in one hand and part of the Moose entrails in the other hand. Your long arm is off to the side; your hands are wet with Moose blood. All of a sudden a bear rushes seemingly out of nowhere. Someone from Cooper Firearms told me of this exact story occurring in Montana except the guy was cleaning an Elk (not a Moose). He didn’t survive the Grizzly attack.

As one post said, he was grouse hunting in Montana. Well you can’t hold a .375 H&H in one arm and shoulder a 20 gauge over and under with #6 birdshot for grouse in the other. While grouse hunting, all of a sudden a bear rushes seemingly out of nowhere.

If you are setting up a tent or going to the bathroom you are separated between you and your long arm. Again all of a sudden a bear rushes seemingly out of nowhere.

You are following a moose blood trail through thick alders and you couldn’t wheel a long gun around quickly if you had to (they’d bump into too many trees). You hear a deep guttural “wuuf” from about 20 yards behind you. All of a sudden sticks are cracking underfoot of this “wuuf” and he is rushing at you like a freight train on a mission.

These attacks are incredibly fast and come seemingly out of nowhere (see this!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw). This guy had the proverbial warning siren by first seeing cubs, but a lot of these guys that have been in bear attacks never get such a forewarning.

As I said in an earlier post, according to documentation by Larry Kaniut, a lot of these attack victims get NO SHOTS off with anything!

paul105, thanks for this link http://www.go2gbo.com/forums//index.php/topic,89450.0.html . Assuming the guy posting this is being honest (and I have no reason to think he is not being honest) these may be most informative 2 posts I’ve ever seen on this subject. Certainly the most experienced I have read on a net post with dangerous bears in the field. Thanks again.

I am leaning to the .454 Casull in a Ruger Super Redhawk. 6 shots, plenty of power, very versatile, ammo available anywhere in Alaska I would think. In Black Bear country (a separate issue I guess) I am leaning toward the 10mm - lots of shots and pretty good power. Add a compensated barrel and follow up shots are relatively quick too.

Another thing (and I’ll probably begin a different thread on this) is the primary long arm. Which shotgun? A pump (870) or a semi auto (Benelli SBE II) is what I would likely recommend but again I will begin a different thread for that discussion (I don’t want to hijack the thread) in a few days I think.

[cp1969]

I have no experience with bears and never will. But if for some reason I had to go into bear country armed with a handgun, I would probably take my .45 Colt Blackhawk, loaded a little bit hot with RNFP bullets. That load will penetrate.

Penetration is the only thing that will do you any good in an encounter with a bear. You've got to hit something vital in the nervous system to incapacitate the beast while you run for it.

If I could find a similar non-expanding, high-penetrating bullet for the .44, that would work, too. You don't need a lot of velocity to get a lot of penetration--1000-1200 fps would be plenty, in fact, more velocity might be detrimental.

You have to consider that a lot of people spent a lot of time in bear country before any of these big hand cannons were invented. Without undue loss of life.

If, on the other hand, one is looking for a justification to buy such a revolver, this is as good as any but I don't think they'd be one bit more effective than a stout .45 Colt or .44 Mag.

[mewachee]

I remember listening to a historian tell an account of the first time Lewis and Clark encountered a Grizzly. They too, like most from the east under estimated the grizzly. The Indians told them of this fearless and aggressive bear. Those in the Lewis and Clark camp thought the native inhabitants didn't know what they were talking about: Besides, they only use bows and arrows.

I don't remember how many shots that bear took, but I remember this guy saying that Lewis and Clark found eight balls in the heart.

http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/brown-bear3.jpg

[The Lone Haranguer]

It must be really dangerous out there if the grizzly bears need to carry sidearms! :eek:

[Erik]

Properly loaded, heavy, hard cast, large meplat bullets pushed fast enough to penetrate through feet of bone and flesh should do it assuming shooters do their part; that's .44 magum territory and up.

[BroughtEnoughGun]

I have a 454 Alaskan for a backup to Black Bear and Boar Hunting...I also have a Smith 500 8 3/8" and after seeing what both do to all sorts of different barriers and such, I recommend the 4" 500 Smith with that being my #1 choice for Grizzlies in AK as a "hip gun".

[CraigJS]

You've talked about the rest, now look at the best!!
This thing is unreal!!!!:evil:

http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html

[kolob10]

I have had only one close call with a Grizzley in the bush. It was 1973 south of Yellowstone. I was hunting mule deer in the high country armed with a 270 Winchester and a Superblackhawk 44 mag. I was sitting against a huge rock glassing the tree line below me. To my back about 75 yards distant was a sheer drop below to a rockslide about 200-300 feet down. The nearest tree was to my front about 200 yards. I heard a noise and looked up from the binoculars to see a Grizzley walking along parallel to me with his nose low to the ground. He came within 50 yards of me and suddenly stopped, licked his nose, and stood up slightly and looked in my direction. I knew Grizzleys had poor eysight from watching them in previous years. I weighed my options - pretty slim it seemed. He dropped to his feet and slipped off down the clearing and into the trees. I considered the 270 in my lap (Could get at least one shot off but would not stop him before he was on top of me). I
looked at the 44 at my side and relized that he would be on top of me before
I could fire more than one shot. If he came for me, my option was I would fire one shot from the 270 - maybe I would slow him down enough to get away or get lucky. Later I realized that the 44 might have put me out of my misery if he didn't kill me in the attack. I was about 3 miles from camp at the time. I once read a story about a lucky guy up north that stopped a mauling by firing a 357 in a sows mouth. She was chewing on his head later and he felt no pain - later realized that he had broken her jaw with the shot. I do believe he got beat around some. He did survive the attack.

If I even venture into Grizzley country again for a stroll, I will have my lever action 45/70 and my 454 Casull for backup. I'm not macho - I just respect Grizzleys.

[steve8261948]

The .44 magnum has a pretty good reputation for Grizzlies in Alaska.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/18410Herrett_s_4.jpg

[Harley Quinn]

Hugh Glass and Grizz:

Near the forks of the Grand River in present-day Perkins County, in August 1823, while scouting alone for game for the expedition's larder, Glass surprised a she-grizzly with two cubs. Before he could fire his rifle, the bear charged, picked him up, and threw him to the ground. Glass got up, grappled for his knife, and fought back, stabbing the animal repeatedly as the grizzly raked him time and again with her claws.

Glass managed to kill the bear with help from his trapping partners, Fitzgerald and Bridger, but was left badly mauled and unable to walk. When Glass lost consciousness, Henry became convinced the man would not survive his injuries.

Henry asked for two volunteers to stay with Glass until he died, and then bury him. Bridger (then 17 years old) and Fitzgerald stepped forward, and as the rest of the party moved on, began digging his grave. Later claiming that they were interrupted in the task by an attack by "Arikaree" Indians, the pair grabbed Glass's rifle, knife, and other equipment, and took flight.

Bridger and Fitzgerald reported to Henry -- wrongly it turned out -- that
Glass had died.

http://www.rosyinn.com/more005.html

[Leadhead]

I have vast experience with brown bears and I can tell you exactly what your son should take for bear protection:

1) Common wood sense (lacking that a guide)
2) A rifle (or that 870 you mentioned)
3) Whatever handgun he already owns (the lighter the better).
4) Bear spray to discourage a curious bear

Packing around a huge revolver in .600 nitro (or whatever) will just be a big drag or seeing he's moose hunting, an anchor cause he'll likely take an accidental dip.

I know it is fun to think about bears as monster killing machines stalking about lusting for human flesh, but the reality is something else entirely.

You and your son should be most concerned about shot placement on that moose, because a wounded moose is bad news.








I think we've got a winner folks! :)

[Thunderbolt049]

My wife and I are heading to Alaska for the first time ever this summer to visit and fish with our son up there for Salmon and Halibut. Was leaning heavily toward the Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull but now after doing more research on it and finding Randy Garretts site on the .44 and .45-70 I found and read the only charge incident I know of online that was successfully stopped with the .44 at close range and here is what it said: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/reviews1.asp

"You've made a believer out of me. Last September I was hunting Alaskan grizzly with some natives when one of them wounded a male that took off in the brush. Four of us went in after him, the other 3 had rifles and due to the circumstances of the moment, I was armed with only a S&W 2.5" 44 Magnum loaded with your rounds. I was the fourth guy back, and you guessed it, he circled back around us and did a full charge from the rear at about 15-feet. I turned and shot, hitting him in the upper shoulder, blowing out his lungs and lodging just under the hide on the far side. It knocked him down, giving me enough time to empty my remaining rounds to keep him down. I know these loads were a real life saver!"
- Jeff Newville (Personal Letter)

There is also a link to a picture of the fairly small male griz (http://www.garrettcartridges.com/3.asp) that stalked and then charged from a distance of 15 feet. I also just ordered the 330 grain SuperHardCast Hammerheads from his site to take with me this summer to Alaska where my son is stationed to fish with the bears on the Kenai and Russian Rivers... My son tells me that almost everyone he fishes with up there carries .44's! It will only be used if our pepper spray serves as an appetizer instead of its intended purpose... :eek:

I also will be taking along a Ruger 4" RedHawk in .44 magnum in the holster that is now sold by Ruger on their website: :)

http://shopruger.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&categoryId=19063&productId=48105&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=13682&lastCatId=null

[Shadow 7D]

I live in Alaska, and every year the Anchorage Daily News run at least one story about someone that the Wildlife Troopers (Alaska State troopers who enforce fish and game laws) through in jail and take all their hunting stuff for shooting a bear.

BTW if your hunting and a bear moves in on you kill, you have to leave it and let the bear get it, oh and it counts as your tag.

since he is out of state, he has to hunt with a guide, let the guide carry the bear gun and he can carry is rifle.

making sure he doesn't surprise a bear is what works, then don't be the slowest and you should make it out alive.

[hockea]

I lived for many years in AK's bear country; I've always been astounded at the level of incomprehension of the tourists when it comes to bears.
The lower-48 paradigm of hunting/fishing/hiking ALONE doesnt work; IMHO you should never engage in these activities without a partner that is on armed bear watch (of course you need to be polite and switch off duties).
If a giz shows up on the Kenai Highway you are probably in more danger from the tourists slamming on the brakes to take pictures :cuss:

[SaxonPig]

Ever read any accounts of hunters being charged by grizzlies? In one I read a professional hunter put 2 or 3 rounds of 375 H&H into the bear's chest to go along with the 3-4 rounds of 300 WM the hunter had poured into him and the bear still managed to close 70 of the 80 yards that separated him from the hunters before falling dead.

I do not believe any handgun would give me comfort against a truly big bear that was coming for me. I would want a reliable pump or auto shotgun with a short barrel loaded with 3" 00 Buck slung over my shoulder as I think that's the most powerful close range weapon available and I would still get weak in the knees at the thought of being charged by a grizzly.

[Shadow 7D]

Naw, what I hate more is a moose on the Glen in the summer. It kills me when there are 3 or 4 cars pulled over to take pics, and everybody else trying not to hit them or the moose.

Oh, moose kill more people a year than bear, so you probably could discuss the ins and outs of moose protection.

if you want to see a bear, or moose, go to the zoo.

[TeamRush]

Just my two cents...
Two of the 4 bears I've taken were with a .44 Rem Mag.
(The other two with rifles)

I've personally seen bear spray work on 4 different occasions, twice on Alaskan Grizzly that were interested in fishermen.

I carry a rifle or pistol when hunting, but when just hiking or fishing, I now carry bear spray instead of firearms.

[rmmoore]

Any of the choices offered would be fine, IMO. I carry a .44 Mag with 240gr JHP's as a backup when I bow and rifle hunt. We have bears (albeit not grizzlies where "I" hunt, yet), mountain lions, and wolves. While the .44 certainly isn't as powerful as the others mentioned (duh), follow up shots would be quicker. Ideally, shooting a charging griz once would be best, but that ain't always reality. Something that allowed quick(er) shots, yet still was adequate if I do my part, seems like a better choice. I would think a .44 with heavy, hard cast bullets would be fine. The bigger calibers even better if that's what you think is necessary. To each his own. Good luck and hope his hunt is as awesome as I've heard Alaskan hunts can be.

I know I'm splitting hairs here, but if it's charging, I'd use my rifle first. Seems if I had enough time time to grab a handgun and bring it to arms, I have enough time to raise my rifle and use it. I personally have always felt my handgun was to use if I absolutely had nothing else and it was basically, :uhoh:, ON me. In that case, the wrist busting, one handed grip and discharge, Armeggedon(?) cannon, might not be the best choice, IF you had to fire more than once. Again, I know I'm splitting hairs and you can look at it from either side of the fence. Just my .02