Best Non-Lethal Weapons


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shdwfx
February 7, 2008, 04:43 PM
When it comes to personal defense, the obvious ideal is mentally alert, properly trained, physically conditioned, and capably carrying a good firearm/knife.

But, what do you do if a loved one would only ever consider ECDing a deemed "non-lethal" weapon?

The more I research non-lethal weapons, the more I become painfully aware of their inadequacies and concerned they may do more harm than good.

Tasers have limited range and only one shot - miss or if there are multiple attackers, your hosed.

Stun guns that require you physically touch the assailant are risky for obvious reasons.

Pepper spray? Better hope it isn't windy. Too, it's effectiveness is questionable.

I'm beginning to think that the best non-lethal alternative is a cellphone and good whistle or panic siren.

What are your thoughts? What can one do to equip loved ones who have an aversion to "deadly" weapons. Obviously, a self defense class should be first on the list, but what other options are there?

As others have pointed out, "best" is not the right word to use. I was looking for an enumeration of options beside the obvious taser and pepper sprays and an effectiveness evaluation.

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CWL
February 7, 2008, 04:58 PM
No such thing as "Best" of anything because situations and people vary.

Everything I consider a "weapon" has potential lethality.

Try looking here:
gutterfighting.org
donrearic.com

Oh, sorry for not welcoming you to THR!

nezumi
February 7, 2008, 05:06 PM
I'm asking the same question, but my local laws make it a lot simpler. It looks like I can carry:

A crossbow (but not a pistol crossbow), a sword, or other crazy weapons they didn't think to outlaw
Extendable batons and knives
Pepper spray

I can't carry tazers, stun guns or normal weapons while we're walking outside. I'm also poor and don't have time for training right now, and I would like to be able to carry it into government buildings (so no knives).

My current plan is to invest in pepper spray and batons for myself and my wife. Since we're in an urban area, a whistle can probably be replaced with just yelling.

shdwfx
February 7, 2008, 05:43 PM
Thanks for the welcome...

Everything I consider a "weapon" has potential lethality.
Agreed. Hands and feet, directed correctly, are lethal too.
I will check out those sites thoroughly after work. They look promising.

Collapsible batons are intriguing. I know TDI here in Ohio offers training.

Valkman
February 7, 2008, 05:56 PM
I would think keeping a dog close by would be the best deterrent of all! :)

coyotehitman
February 7, 2008, 06:06 PM
21" ASP baton (preferred length) Need some training with this, very effective and non-lethal if employed correctly, I do not know if you are going to be able to carry this in a secured environment without problems. I have used this baton a few times and can attest to its effectiveness, both open and closed. Avoid airweight models and cheaper copies. Lifetime warrantly on ASP and I have never seen an actual ASP broken. If you cannot train with this or are weak/frail/elderly, I would stay away from it as you would likely be disarmed and find yourself on the receiving end.

26" ASP baton(wouldn't go larger than this)

OC- (Taken multiple hits from Bodyguard and Fox and they burn equally as hot) Used this many times over the years, has always worked, wind direction is a concern with the cone pattern, not so much with foam and stream pattern.

Taser- (Nasty little device) taken (2) 6 second rides and I hated both. You are not limited to one shot; you can quickly change cartridges or utilize what is called a drive stun with the device (not sure on the civilian model).

6"-12" aluminum flashlight-I have used a 6" Surefire as an emergency impact weapon against a guy armed with a knife. While not ideal, it worked and incapacitated him with 3-4 blows to the head. I didn't get cut, but I attribute that to luck.

I carried alot of things growing up, working overseas, and now and can think of alot of everyday items that could be improvised and some would not be too scrutinized: nylon knives or pocket ice scrapers, spike keychains, kubatons, a big fat permanent marker (check out Cold Steel), a box cutter, a railroad spike, a small hammer/rubber mallet, a length of chain, a padlock large enough to fit over a knuckle, a rolled up magazine, metal knuckles, rolled and taped coins, small bottles,sap or slapjack, Walking stick/cane, or a large nut looped onto a length of para cord or rope.

omcjf
February 7, 2008, 06:35 PM
Try one of my kubatons. They are easy to use and require very little training.

DavidVS
February 7, 2008, 06:50 PM
I'm in Oregon. Here the law reads:

"Deadly physical force" means physical force that under the circumstances in which it is used is readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury.

"Serious physical injury" means physical injury which creates a substantial risk of death or which causes serious and protracted disfigurement, protracted impairment of health or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily organ.

Thus in this state if you wish to carry a weapon it might as well be a gun. Otherwise use chemical spray or a blindingly bright flashlight beam and then run. Legally there isn't any middle ground.

Well, maybe there is if you are on a walk with your dogs, as someone suggested. Dogs are not legally "weapons" yet.

Pax Jordana
February 7, 2008, 07:36 PM
The only thing that is completely and entirely nonlethal is a dead sprint in the direction diametrically opposite the direction of confrontation. In short, beat feet!

The stark truth of the matter is that, as personal weapons go, nothing really touches the gun. Anything you find will fall short of that.

For what I would uneasily call "controlled lethality" I'd recommend a flashlight. A nice big one. Doesn't take much if any training - practice with a piece of stovewood for five minutes and you'll have exhausted most of the strategy inherent to wielding a club. Of course, anything that uses pain runs a risk of crippling your assailant, but broken limbs can be set.

Mindset figures in here too. By all means, don't tell whoever it is that they'd best buy a gun or else they might as well walk around naked. But when someone attacks you unprovoked, they already know pretty well how much they want to hurt you - to win, you have to be willing to hurt them more than they are you. So keep working on them (EDIT: your friend, not your assailant! I mean, work on them both, you know?)

Patrick_Henry
February 7, 2008, 07:43 PM
Welcome to THR shdwfx!

I don't have one but I have heard many good things about well made walking canes designed specifically for carry. What I do know is that a well used stick will take the fire out of somebody might fast... Also, I've never seen a law banning the carrying of walking sticks. This seems like a decent option if your friend would actually carry a stick daily...

hso
February 7, 2008, 07:44 PM
the obvious ideal is mentally alert, properly trained, physically conditioned, and capably carrying a good firearm/knife

You are correct in that being alert, fit and trained are the vitally important elements of self defense, but a knife or gun is not always the ideal SD tool (and the knife, my favorite, isn't even close to a good stick) for many self defense situations. Add mindset to complete the foundation.

All self defense approaches have their flaws. It's integrating several SD tools and methods that give you options that make up for each tool's deficiencies.

If you're good with stick and your hands, carry a chemical spray and a flashlight that doubles as a kubaton/fist load as well as being adequate with a firearm at close SD ranges you've got a good integrated self defense package.

There is no one best less lethal self defense tool beyond those 3 you initially mentioned.

shdwfx
February 7, 2008, 08:21 PM
Thanks for the responses.

I want to get together a good list of specific options and go over them with a couple people in my family. My goal is to encourage them to become more capable of defending themselves in a manner that does not conflict with their personal values. My guess is that OC, a flashlight (like an SF e2d), and self defense classes are probably the limit.

sm
February 7, 2008, 08:29 PM
Don't forget Sneakers....

Boats
February 7, 2008, 08:57 PM
I agree that non-lethal is a misnomer. I don't even like less lethal, since lethality is a matter of degree for anything that can rightly be called a weapon. A twelve inch piece of cotton cord can be a lethal weapon. So can a fork with proper application.

I'm pretty sure I could kill someone with a stun gun if I shoved it hard enough in the right spot.;)

People have been killed by being tasered.

I'm sure someone out there has or will have an anaphylactic death from pepper spray.

A cane, stick, brass knuckles, flashlight, club, steel toed boots, are all lethal weapons.

Ex con Hell's Angels bikers carry ball peen hammers since there is no law prohibiting the carry of a hammer.

Lethality is in the intent, legally. Anything of sufficient mass, hardness, or length, can become a lethal weapon with enough imagination and determination.

In my world, this discussion would be titled, "Which is the best of the lesser efficiency weapons?"

http://www.armor.com/images/pole147a.jpg

On the street, my answer is the mace. Rather difficult to conceal though.

Against an armored opponent, a back spike is always nice to have.

http://www.armor.com/images/pole006a.jpg

Indoors, something that can swing and thrust is the best bet.

http://www.armor.com/images/pole005a.jpg

or maybe a dagger. . . .

http://www.armor.com/images/dagg063b.jpg

In this world, I'd go with a 21" ASP with a leverage cap.

http://www.batondefense.com/images/Asp/asp-baton-1.jpg

I have a cop friend with one. It's pretty impressive since it collapses to about eight inches.

missouri dave
February 7, 2008, 09:45 PM
At close range, a large dog, a cane, a louisville slugger, entrenching tool the list goes on and on. One of the many weapons I have at home and in my truck is a 4 foot length of 1 and 1/4 inch wood dowel I bought at lowes.

shdwfx
February 7, 2008, 10:19 PM
LOL Boats. :)
How in the world would you explain to a jury why you chose a back spike for your CCW? One would probably be better off packing an Uzi, litigation wise.

SAWBONES
February 7, 2008, 11:07 PM
Few effective weapons are guaranteed non-lethal.
A continuum of available force is a useful mental construct for self-protection, IMNSHO.
My own hierarchy includes OC first, sap or blackjack next, edged weapon after that, and firearm(s) as the highest, quickest and most potentially effective approach.

Hopefully none of these is necessary, and trouble can be altogether avoided either by leaving the scene or by using verbal means alone, and it's also understood that if a weapon must be employed, there may be no real occasion for sequential escalation as described (for instance, one might be forced to shoot as a first response depending upon the nature and immediacy of the threat), but I find it both reasonable and useful to consider and to have available these several options in addition to a sidearm.
When you consider all the possible requirements for self defense, use of a firearm would be an appropriate response only a tiny fraction of the time.

Boats
February 8, 2008, 12:05 AM
LOL indeed. "As you have seen ladies and gentlemen of the jury, some bastards out there richly deserve a hit or twelve from a three pound pick."

Tell me this wouldn't penetrate a perp wearing kevlar.

http://www.myarmoury.com/images/reviews/aa_haxe_d_s.jpg

Arms & Armor makes the real deal if you need to go medieval on someone.

RP88
February 8, 2008, 12:25 AM
A youth-size aluminum bat. Works well in corridors. Just swing vertically downward for the shoulder. If he opts to have his arms broken by blocking, then follow-up with a cut to the knees. it also is legal in every state and fits perfectly in your car or truck!

ArfinGreebly
February 8, 2008, 02:39 AM
I'm old and getting arthritic.

I think I need to get some kind of cane.

Not as steady as I once was, 'specially in these icy parking lots.

Speaking of icy parking lots, did you know that a "tire checker" or "tire thumper" short baton works really well for knocking the ice out of wheel wells and off of tires?

True story.

Discovered that after trying to use a long-handled ice scraper to get the job done. Ice scraper snapped off. Just not strong enough. You need something you can swing short and hit a good lick.

Anyway.

Old guys need a cane.

You young whippersnappers might feel more comfortable with a stylish "walking stick" affair, so the ladies don't get the idea you need the extra support.

Us old guys, heck, we don't care. Think what you like. It ain't your hip that breaks when I fall.

eliphalet
February 8, 2008, 02:55 AM
I walk at times with a 1 1/2" diameter hardwood cane but a walking stick is in many ways superior, especially with one end carved to a nice point. Just a simple squeeze bottle with a water and ammonia mix is a wonderful dog deterrent, Anything hard on the eyes, temporally blind something and it has a real hard time attacking you.

Ball peen hammers can be a good thing,
when in doubt knock em out.

nezumi
February 8, 2008, 04:00 PM
re: deadly force and legality - I've heard it said that when you strike a person with a club below the neck, it is not considered deadly force. The neck or above is considered deadly. Of course, when you're in court, it all depends on who your lawyer is...

re: dogs - my dad was walking his dog a few years ago when a van pulled up, a guy jumped out and waved a shotgun at him, relieved him of his wallet and left. The whole time the dog just watched quietly. Not all dogs are created equal (and I haven't seen many which are bullet-resistant).

CWL
February 8, 2008, 04:03 PM
nezumi, I think you are talking about the police application of batons for control. Lawsuits have forced them to make strikes below the hip.

Cosmoline
February 8, 2008, 04:09 PM
Bats, picks, swords and the like are DEADLY WEAPONS. They are not non-lethal.

I'd like to find a non-lethal weapon that does a good job at physically knocking the attacker down. Some martials arts concentrate on this, I believe, but also require direct contact. A device that just dropped a person would be extremely helpful, and would assist you in escaping the situation. But I don't know of any that reliably do the job. My personal choice would be a rubber-tipped walking stick, used to jab and push the person down to the ground without doing too much damage. Trying to knock someone out works better on TV than reality. Take a ball-peen hammer to the back of someone's head and you'll likely kill them or render them very seriously injured, maybe paralyzed.

I've heard it said that when you strike a person with a club below the neck, it is not considered deadly force

There are no such automatic rules. You can absolutely kill someone with a club by driving a ribcage through their lung or heart. Not to mention liver damage or breaking a bone that then cuts into the circulatory system.

Pax Jordana
February 9, 2008, 07:12 PM
I've heard it said that when you strike a person with a club below the neck, it is not considered deadly force. The neck or above is considered deadly. Of course, when you're in court, it all depends on who your lawyer is...

It's not your lawyer you need to worry about. Round here, striking someone with a club is assault with a deadly weapon, no matter where you hit 'em. Ever heard of Deep Vein Thrombosis? (edit: more generally, thrombophlebitis)

As others have pointed out, "best" is not the right word to use. I was looking for an enumeration of options beside the obvious taser and pepper sprays and an effectiveness evaluation.

as this is shdwfx's thread, I'd like to address that part - before it gets completely off of his topic.

Thing is, besides pepper spray and tasers, you're basically limited to impact (this includes 'pressure' e.g. the kubaton) weapons for any effective defense. There's a whole slew of bells and whistles - literally - being sold for assault prevention or whatever have you, but that again is reliance on your fellow man to step in. And the odds are that fellow man will be wielding something you chose not to in favor of a siren or a rape whistle.

Impact weapons fall into two general categories, as I see it - pain compliance and mechanical alteration. Pain compliance encompasses short sticks, the stinger and perhaps fistloads and knuckle reinforcers. That works fine on a normal person with normal pain response - drugs, or even adrenaline or (it has been theorized) an overabundance of testosterone can affect pain response. So can mindset, if you're good and well-practiced.

Which brings us to mechanical alteration. Fact is, muscles move bones, and if you really munge up either enough you're going to reduce someone's effectiveness in a fight.

So if there's no chance of joe americasnexttopmodel carrying something 'deadly' or already enumerated in your original post I would still recommend a club. The hard truth of it is unless you're game to outrun someone, and you haven't had the foresight to avoid (happens to the best of us sometimes) you're gonna have to hurt the guy.

wheelgunslinger
February 9, 2008, 07:55 PM
But, what do you do if a loved one would only ever consider ECDing a deemed "non-lethal" weapon?

Remind yourself that each of us has to take responsibility for his or her own safety. You take responsibility for yours, and that's why you have made the preparations you have made.
Gender, size, skin or hair color, race, education level, or vocation don't preclude anyone from doing the same.
In the end, it's not your job or responsibility to make their choices for them, no matter how much you may love them.

And, people only learn to choose and effectively use a means of defense when they want to do so. Otherwise, you might as well just hand them a panic button because that's all it will be.

GunTech
February 9, 2008, 08:40 PM
A crossbow (but not a pistol crossbow), a sword, or other crazy weapons they didn't think to outlaw
Extendable batons and knives
Pepper spray


I think only the latter falls into the 'less lethal' category.

GunTech
February 9, 2008, 08:47 PM
I haven't tried it on people, but I've been known to carry a cut down sjambok to deal with dog. One dog in particular, which is known to attack people, now gives me extremely wide berth.

I've hit myself with a few test swings at reduced power and believe me, you would not want to be hot with one.

You might find this web page interesting:

http://www.donrearic.com/mightysjambok.html

I bought several, but prefer the short one sold by Col Steel. Mine is cut down to about 4 feet.

http://www.coldsteel.com/95sseries.html

I think it would be hard to kill someone with one, but not impossible, but you could make someone wish they were dead.

Wolfman_556
February 10, 2008, 12:59 AM
A nice piece of blackthorn and steel-toed boots.

shdwfx
February 11, 2008, 06:54 PM
Back to tasers and OC, I am seriously considering these options because I'm sure I could convince my more passive friend to carry one if it was a gift.

(but I have no experience with either of these products)

1. the Taser C2 (www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/C2.aspx)

2. Kimber Guardian Angel (http://www.life-act.com/guardianangel.php)

My issue with both are the limited number of shots (1 for C2, 2 for GA).

My question: is the C2 really that much more effective than something like the GA with a 13 foot range (or regular OC spray) to justify the cost ($350)?

nitestocker
February 11, 2008, 10:56 PM
i would go with the pepper spray and a good crook neck walking cane they look like a old mans cane if you take some classes you can use this quite effectively arm locks chocks throws broken bones. and with this type striking is very fast they dont look like a weapon ;) look up fighting canes dont get the one with the birds beak or notches that makes it weaker because when they notch or make these faces in the canes it weakens them also the district attorney will no its a weapon get the standard type its the same Wood but looks harmless.

LeonCarr
February 11, 2008, 11:03 PM
Coming from a Corrections background, I prefer the the S&W 37MM Gas Gun loaded with beanbag rounds to pretty much anything else as far as less lethal stuff goes. Really knocks the fight out of bad guys, and you have a myriad of other rounds (CS, OC, Barricade Penetrating, etc) you can shoot in it. I know gas guns are pretty much LEO only, but similar rounds are also available for the 12 gauge shotgun.

To get a rough idea of what beanbags do, watch the movie The Hunter with Steve McQueen.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

GuyWithQuestions
February 12, 2008, 04:56 PM
shdwfx,

I bought my C2 TASER for $270 + $14 shipping and handling at gunbroker.com Make sure you don't use a "www" in your url or else it'll say it's an invalid site. It's like ebay for firearms and weapons. Just type in taser under the search, and it'll bring up various options. Some start the bids at $0.01, but all of those for the TASER C2 have a reserve price of something like $285. No one will sell their items for anything less than the reserve price, I've already tried bidding for $150 and $200 for a lot of them. $270 + $14 shipping sure beats any other price I've seen out there, and mine came with the integrated laser sight and everything else that taser.com lists that comes with the package (so it's not one of those places that leaves parts of it out to lower prices). However, I didn't see any of the leopard skin or camo C2's that are offered, just the red, blue, pink, and black. Some will offer it for $30 cheaper if you get the one without a laser (which TASER International offers also). I would make sure if you do get one, get one with a laser because lasers make it so much more likely you'll hit the target in less time aiming. Hardly anyone is bidding on any of the TASERs since most people are there to buy firearms. Some of them say free shipping and handling, but say that only applies if you buy it at the buy it now price, so you need to read everything, and what the shipping and handling and payment methods are. I emailed TASER International and asked them about the their policy about giving you a new one if you leave it behind and send in a police report and if you need to buy from an authorized dealer to do that. They said it does not matter who you bought it from or even if you're the one who owns it, as long as you're the one who sends in the police report they'll give you another C2 TASER. The cycle lasts 30 seconds and so that you don't have to wait around so that you can detach the main unit from the wires, they have the replacement policy if you send in the police report. There are still some TASER C2's for $270 with the integrated laser sight at gunbroker.com

dogma512
March 12, 2008, 10:35 AM
21" ASP baton (preferred length) Need some training with this, very effective and non-lethal if employed correctly, I do not know if you are going to be able to carry this in a secured environment without problems. I have used this baton a few times and can attest to its effectiveness, both open and closed. Avoid airweight models and cheaper copies. Lifetime warrantly on ASP and I have never seen an actual ASP broken. If you cannot train with this or are weak/frail/elderly, I would stay away from it as you would likely be disarmed and find yourself on the receiving end.

How heavy are these things? Is it something I could comfortably carry in a pants pocket when out for a walk or would one be better off with a walking stick? Better yet, could my 105lbs significant other wield it effectively? For some reason, that nobody can explain, tasers are illegal in my state except for LEO.

Are they any good books/DVDs on how to use them? I've been interested in them but was told to stay away from them unless you've seriously trained with it. This was by a MMA guy that does military training contracts so I assume he knows what he's talking about.

ray_ray
March 12, 2008, 11:57 AM
Are they any good books/DVDs on how to use them? I've been interested in them but was told to stay away from them unless you've seriously trained with it. This was by a MMA guy that does military training contracts so I assume he knows what he's talking about

take a look at youtube and do a search on ESP expandable baton,
its just some simple instruction videos of diffrent senarios.

dogma512
March 12, 2008, 05:26 PM
take a look at youtube and do a search on ESP expandable baton, its just some simple instruction videos of diffrent senarios.

YouTube <--- get your mall ninja training here

dogma512
March 13, 2008, 01:13 AM
Does anyone have an impression of Kelly Worden training DVD?

http://stores.homestead.com/kellyworden/Detail.bok?no=67

hso
March 13, 2008, 09:48 AM
Be careful with any baton/expandable baton. Some states deny you the right to carry them, some require training to be allowed to carry them legally and some have no restrictions at all.

If you decide to carry one you should get real training in their use. It is not as simple as watching a couple of videos and then sticking the thing in your pocket. You must train to put them to use. My opinion is that the best training is to find a good Escrima school and use the training there to cross train with an expandable. Next best is to get training from an LE instructor (or certified baton instructor). The least desirable is to pick up specific videos, ASP and Escrima, wear a dummy out. An unacceptable approach is to use the internet as a substitute for training. YouTube is for entertainment.

Keep in mind that batons are not a non-lethal SD tool. A strike to the head with an ASP baton can kill.

My constant recommendation is to get training. If you're going to carry a stick, find an Escrima school. Sweat a little and you'll have the best investment because you'll be able to adapt and use a wide variety to "sticks" to defend yourself.

coyotehitman
March 14, 2008, 05:41 PM
21" ASP baton (preferred length) Need some training with this, very effective and non-lethal if employed correctly, I do not know if you are going to be able to carry this in a secured environment without problems. I have used this baton a few times and can attest to its effectiveness, both open and closed. Avoid airweight models and cheaper copies. Lifetime warranty on ASP and I have never seen an actual ASP broken. If you cannot train with this or are weak/frail/elderly, I would stay away from it as you would likely be disarmed and find yourself on the receiving end.

How heavy are these things? Is it something I could comfortably carry in a pants pocket when out for a walk or would one be better off with a walking stick? Better yet, could my 105lbs significant other wield it effectively? For some reason, that nobody can explain, tasers are illegal in my state except for LEO.

Are they any good books/DVDs on how to use them? I've been interested in them but was told to stay away from them unless you've seriously trained with it. This was by a MMA guy that does military training contracts so I assume he knows what he's talking about.

I do not have the exact weight handy, but you should be able to find it on the web. They are all steel and very robust, but carried in a scabbard on the belt, you shouldn't have a problem. Jean carry in the front or back pocket should be fine, shorts/dress slacks probably going to pose a problem. I am a trainer and the fundamentals are very basic and straightforward, although I do not know of anyone teaching the civilian sector. I am going to disagree with the recommendation to take escrima and to try and apply the fundamentals to ASP training. In a nutshell, the ASP is designed for a series of strikes to a series of body parts, deviating from them is bad news and will take the ASP from the less lethal to the lethal category, not to mention make a claim of negligence a certainty. My advice for you is to contact ASP directly and see if there is any training available in the civilian market. I have only trained LE, government contractors, and private security personnel, but have never been contacted by the average Joe looking for training. For vicarious liability reasons, I would shy away from training anyone who doesn't have deep pockets or a hefty umbrella policy.

Can your other half handle it? If she has coordination, decent motor skills, a reasonable amount of hand strength, etc. it should not be a problem. The biggest problem I see is the bigger is better mentality. Sudents show up with 31" batons and cannot control them. If they cannot stop a swing in mid stroke without the plane of the wrist breaking, IMO they have too much baton. 21" is the optimal length for most.

dogma512
March 16, 2008, 06:35 AM
I do not have the exact weight handy, but you should be able to find it on the web. They are all steel and very robust, but carried in a scabbard on the belt, you shouldn't have a problem. Jean carry in the front or back pocket should be fine, shorts/dress slacks probably going to pose a problem. I am a trainer and the fundamentals are very basic and straightforward, although I do not know of anyone teaching the civilian sector. I am going to disagree with the recommendation to take escrima and to try and apply the fundamentals to ASP training. In a nutshell, the ASP is designed for a series of strikes to a series of body parts, deviating from them is bad news and will take the ASP from the less lethal to the lethal category, not to mention make a claim of negligence a certainty. My advice for you is to contact ASP directly and see if there is any training available in the civilian market. I have only trained LE, government contractors, and private security personnel, but have never been contacted by the average Joe looking for training. For vicarious liability reasons, I would shy away from training anyone who doesn't have deep pockets or a hefty umbrella policy.

I did a little looking into Escrima, which is very popular here in Hawaii, presumably due to the demographics. They seem to be really into machetes and striking techniques. It seems like alot of other fluff to go through just to get to the stick fighting. I've spoken to a military trainer here about doing a civilian class. Hopefully we can get something organized.

inkhead
March 16, 2008, 07:43 AM
I agree with the above posting. Be extremely careful with batons. They are very deadly, and it's easy to kill someone when your goal was to deliver a blow that would keep them down, or away from you.

A Single well placed blow to the side of the head, under the jaw, or on the upper back between the shoulder blades will kill a man. So be careful.

JeremySmith
March 17, 2008, 12:46 AM
I'm seriously considering an umbrella.

http://www.real-self-defense.com/umbrella.html

Main thing I like about it is you can carry it about anywhere without looking odd. My walking stick is fine around here, but would look out of place in downtown chicago.

jhansman
March 17, 2008, 10:54 PM
You guys have it all wrong. Here's what you need:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b5/jhansman/stalker.jpg

Stroll into your favorite watering hole sporting one of these and see if anyone messes with you. ;)

One note: remove before visiting the toilet.

sm
March 17, 2008, 11:40 PM
Poor kid, been sick, had to go to the doctor and get a shot.
Didn't feel good, needed a nap, and was feeling stomach grumbles...

NO!!!! I Don't Want toooo!!

I assure you, anyone that might of have ill intent with that kid and mom, would of had a heart attack and peed themselves.

I know this as I jumped, and I was two aisles over, the mom dropped soup cans, and there was this "crash-bang-boom" of buggies in the grocery store.

I'd get a 2 1/2 year old and wag this non-lethal weapon around. *wink*

Poor kid...he knew what he did, and he had the most sincere apology to his mom, and other folks including me.

Use Enough Brat

xrey
March 18, 2008, 06:27 AM
Isn't it redundant, "non-lethal-weapon". It's either a weapon or not. Can a water gun with sulfuric acid inside be considered a weapon? Only if it burns.

dogma512
March 18, 2008, 06:52 AM
I'm seriously considering an umbrella.

http://www.real-self-defense.com/umbrella.html

That thing looks great. The price tag, however, is outrageous.

hso
March 18, 2008, 10:08 AM
The price tag, however, is outrageous.

Oh yeah?

Try 195.00 for a solid hickory Umbrella Cane from the UK. ($396);)

http://www.james-smith.co.uk/acatalog/The__Solid_Stick_Umbrella_.html

pbhome71
March 18, 2008, 12:37 PM
When I was in Chicago and commuting on a sub-way, I always have my 32oz stainless commuter mug filled with boiling hot coffee.

It always keep me warm and fuzzy inside. :)

coelacanth
March 19, 2008, 06:50 AM
"best non-lethal" thread. The poster said something about a guardrail nut on a piece of para cord - his comment was one of the funniest things I ever read here. Anybody else remember that one?

dogma512
March 19, 2008, 07:23 AM
Try 195.00 for a solid hickory Umbrella Cane from the UK. ($396)

That umbrella costs as much as a Glock. I'd say that's an easy choice to make but there's no choice to be made in the UK.

hso
March 20, 2008, 04:46 PM
In my other pocket I have a 1-1/2" Guardrail nut looped on a piece of 550 cord. Not whiz bang tactical, but one smack in the grape and its coloring books for Christmas time.:D

NorestRDS
March 30, 2008, 12:38 AM
a quick cup of both ears followed by a gentle push into oncoming traffic is highly effective however the car would be considered a "less lethal" weapon.:p

Pax Jordana
March 30, 2008, 01:24 AM
the car would be considered a "less lethal" weapon.

au contraire, mon frere (yes, these children are speaking french, and no they're not french, they're american!)

Cars are the most lethal weapon in the world. They're tops on most people's lists of 'things that kill people'.

theotherwaldo
March 31, 2008, 06:06 PM
I must argue with the last posting. Stupidity is the most lethal thing on earth, followed by laziness and apathy.

Anyway, my favorite casual carry item is a well-worn putter, usually held Bob Hope style. Which end you use depends on how serious you are. Also makes a good blocking device.

alaskanativeson
April 2, 2008, 03:54 PM
I went ahead and spend the money on one of these (http://www.real-self-defense.com/umbrella.html) from Real-Self-Defense and while it's not a bad thing I'd say your money is better spent elsewhere.

Pontif
April 5, 2008, 04:06 PM
Have to agree with sm. If you can get the hell out of Dodge, run baby run. What I teach my students, anyhow.

If not able to flee, pepper spray with a stout OTN rating (just learned about "OTN").

Although spray is not effective 100% of the time, what one carries is a trade off between convenience, practicality, effectivenss and ease of deployment. Foam based spray seems to be the best bang for the buck (although I really do like the fire extinguisher type of powder for disuading several attackers quickly - if that situation even arises).

Dksimon
April 10, 2008, 07:14 AM
First off I would like to say that this is a great thread and an does an exellent job pointing out my deficiencies in this department. Also, I honestly laughed outloud when I read about the Armo piercing back pick. I love THR

Coops387
July 4, 2008, 03:59 AM
I've not posted here for a long time, but I wandered in and found this interesting thread. My view on a decent less lethal tool would be a combination of a sturdy walking stick and the Fairbairn & Sykes stick drill - you won't need much else and it only takes a short while to learn. It is included in one of McCann's DVD's at the beginning, before he becomes more martial arty.

The drill also works well with a long gun or baton, but is exellent for a simple stick.

Coops

Stainz
July 4, 2008, 09:12 AM
Flatulance. Works for me!

Okay, okay, so I eat a lot of Tex/Mex... Seriously, I find a decent walking stick to be reassuring. Not as much as the 642 in my pocket, of course.

Stainz

Carl Levitian
July 6, 2008, 08:49 PM
All those senior citizens carrying a two foot stick on thier evening walks can't be wrong. Man's oldest weapon; the blunt club, is still a very good tool to have. A stout walking stick is already in hand, can go onto airplanes, into court houses, and government buildings.

psyprofessor
July 12, 2008, 11:17 PM
Here are some non-lethal unconventional & stealthy self-defense "tools"...

1. Carry a styrofoam cup ....half full of sand...and place a lid. Carry this cup with you when you feel a need for an "escape" distractor.
When suddenly approach by an attacker, toss the sand in his face. It should buy you a couple of seconds to make your next tactical move...such as reaching for your concealed weapon...or allowing you to run away.

2. Wear soccer shin guards/pads. Glue a thin metal rod (or heavy plastic) on top of the shin guards. The thin metal rod is about the thickness of a pencil and should be about 10 inches long. It is glued on top of the shin guard, on top of the shin bone area.

When attacked, execute a low roundhouse kick to the attacker's leg. Attack his knee joint with your shins. The shin guards will protect your shins. The metal rod will focus your force into a small area..thereby increasing its effect. It will be like being armed with two baseball bats.

LouisFio
September 4, 2008, 07:02 AM
Try this kubaton !!!! larger diameter, shorter in length, stronger then plastic... and cheaper>>>:eek:


http://cgi.ebay.com/Kubaton_W0QQitemZ230287718097QQihZ013QQcategoryZ3204QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

if this link does not work, e-mail for photo and price. And yes they are made in th USA.

dogma512
September 4, 2008, 07:22 AM
Try this kubaton !!!! larger diameter, shorter in length, stronger then plastic... and cheaper>>>

Looks like an ASP defender w/o the OC.

ray_ray
September 4, 2008, 08:23 AM
Looks like hes fishing for people to by his kubaton. bad first post man.

Fred Fuller
September 4, 2008, 11:20 AM
That's kinda harsh, ray_ray. Other folks who make defensive items offer them for sale here.

Granted, some would prefer that a new member establish themselves as a contributor and a known quantity first, but simply calling attention to the item is not over the top IMHO.

I'd prefer the first response to a new member whose conduct is not totally outrageous be "Welcome aboard..." but that's just me.

Glad to have you here, LouisFio. Drop by the Intro thread in General and tell us a bit about yourself... http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=233018 .

lpl

ETA: OBTW, folks- that guardrail nut on a loop of paracord thing? It's known as a "slung shot," and a good many states have laws specifically against carrying such things. Effective? Yep, just as described, depressed skull fractures are nothing to sneeze at. And that's why they are illegal in so many places. Check your local and state statutes before you whip one up and drop it in your 'other pocket.'

Blofeld
September 4, 2008, 03:00 PM
Carry a Shaolin Monk.:)

brent376
September 4, 2008, 03:28 PM
Kimber Guardian Angel

ray_ray
September 4, 2008, 05:57 PM
I see what you saying Lee Lapin and if that is acepteble in this forum i stand wrong and apoligise.
But for me its just seems wrong.
No other problem.
Welcome LouisFio

KBintheSLC
September 4, 2008, 06:49 PM
My two favorite non-firearm, non-explosive weapons are a long fixed-blade knife, and a cane.

I like the cane for secured/sensitive areas as it does not spook anyone, yet it can be rapidly deployed as a striking tool, a grappling hook, or a defensive blocking device. Love the cane.

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