[vanilla_gorilla]

I know there's got to be an old timer around here who can answer this for me.

As I sit here, getting ready to brew up another batch of heavy-loaded .38s, I think about Skeeter. It's only appropriate, after all, since the destination for these rounds is a 5 inch Model 27-2 that would have made Skeeter proud, I'm sure. I've read some about Skeeters loads and have happily taken on the task of making my own, but I can't help but wonder. It's my understanding that Skeeter was quite fond of loading a .38 Special case into his .357 guns. Why is this? Why a .38 instead of just using a .357?

Of note, I spent my lunchtime yesterday making booming noises on the range with a hundred rounds of a 158 LSWC on top of 12 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special case. I may have to have surgery to remove this grin from my face. :D

[nelson133]

As I remember he loaded heavy rounds in .38 special cases because .357 brass was harder to come by when he was younger.

[rcmodel]

I think Skeeter first did it as an economy measure.
He got all the .38 brass he could drag off from the cop shops free where he worked when younger.
.357 Mag brass had to be bought out of his hard earned money.

But he also preferred the .44 Special over the .44 Mag.

For one thing, the "Special" guns were lighter to pack around on a gun-belt all day then the Magnums.

And for another, a heavy loaded .38 or .44 Special is a better gunfighter/cop's/desert hunters tool then full power Magnum guns & loads.
He wasn't in really big game country like Elmer Keith, so didn't need as much power most of the time to do the deed.

He often mentioned that javilena, coyotes, jack rabbets, and small desert deer were killed pretty dead with his "medium power" magnum loads in short cases.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[ArchAngelCD]

As I remember he loaded heavy rounds in .38 special cases because .357 brass was harder to come by when he was younger.
As a matter of fact, it's still harder to come by for free and will cost you more than .38 Special brass if you buy it!! LOL

[vanilla_gorilla]

Interesting as to how he got .38 Special brass. Especially to me. The reason I have such an abundance of brass is because I accompany some friends to the cop range for their qualifications. They have to sweep up all the old brass, and I get to keep it. :evil: The dept will only pay for .38 +P ammo, even if the guys carry a .357, though very few of them do.

[Old Fuff]

I ask him once.... :)

He prefered a cast 158 or heavier-grain bullet that if seated in a .357 case required the bullet be crimped around the front shoulder. If when using .357 Magnum cases the bullet was crimped in the crimping groove the overall length of the cartridge would cause the bullet to stick out in front of the cylinder. When using .38 Special cases he could crimp the case in the bullet's groove and not have any problem with cartridge overall length.

Notice that unlike later .41 and .44 Magnums, S&W didn't lengthen the .357 cylinder to fit in the entire frame window.

And of course, .38 cases were easier to come by... ;)

[MCgunner]

The local cops use our range, all .40 S&W.:banghead:

[Erik]

Which if you get permission to cart away to reload you could, in a limited kind of way, be a modern day Skelton.

:evil:

[bannockburn]

vanilla gorilla

It's strange you should say that about the .38 Special and Skeeter Skelton; the reason being is that I have a Hipshots column from Shooting Times, March 1986, and in it he said just the opposite of what you're saying.
He started his column by writing that:
"I am not-and never have been-particularly enamored with it (.38 Special), and my purpose is not to get a rise out of you, but to make you think."
He then went on to give the history behind the .38 and how he found the 158 grain lead round nose load to be really inefficient. This was when he was investigating shootings while he was sheriff in Texas in the '50s. The next paragraph then began with:
"At that time, I had long before given up the .38 Special as my main battery and was carrying a holstered .357 or hot-loaded .44 Special, which I knew were adequate law enforcement guns."
He then went on for a number of paragraphs relating at how ineffective most standard lead HP loads were because they failed to expand, and that in his estimation, the .38 neeed at least 1,000 fps to even begin to expand. He also related how he really didn't have much experience with the +P loads but that he was concerned because of the wear and tear that they have on older or smaller, lightweight revolvers. After conferring with a number of other former LEOs, including Dean Grennell, Tom Ferguson, and Masaad Ayoob, Skeeter felt that the performance of +P ammo was still not up to where it should be for maximum expansion and performance. He finished the column with this last thought:
"For now, I cannot score the .38 Special, with whatever commercial load, in the same class as the .357, .41, or .44 Magnums, nor even with handloaded .44 Special, the factory .45ACP, or the factory .45 Colt ammunition... I very seldom shoot the .38 Special-probably the most used handgun cartridge of our age."
It was kind of strange when I found the article because I was actually looking for similar source material that you were referencing in your post.

[highlander 5]

IIRC Skeeter was a big fan of the 41 mag police load. He was also a fan of the 44spl and had several 357 mag Blackhawk revolvers re chambered/re barreled to 44spl. Oh to the uninformed the 41 mag was made in 2 loadings both were 210 gr bullets but one was a lighter loading somewhere around 1000 fps the other was a full tilt hunting load but the velocity of it escapes me at this point

[sm]

Preface _ I never got into metallic reloading, only shot shells.

Re: loads of the day.

Were not factory loads, including .38spl and .44 spl a bit more robust then that what they are today?

.38spl was also a BP load, so I would be curious to see comparisons of the Black powder and smokless loads.

I was born in the mid 50's and I recall Mentors loading both BP and Smokeless .38spl loads and this included roundball loads.
Which I thought was neat as a kid...
Fellow used to put down critters on the property with these roundball load, as he made these balls from wheel weights.

.38spl was used by all the Cops coming up, except State Boys had .357s
Still, many a deer was felled on the property [they get into rose bushes and such] and cows are still put down with .38spls around here.

[Old Fuff]

Both the .38 Special and .44 Special smokeless factory loads were loaded to modest pressures because of the older guns that were still in circlulation. In both the pressures and performance were close to the original black powder loads, but by the time Skeeter (and I) came along commercial black powder loads were long gone.

During the 1920's and later, Elmer Keith had proven that the "mild to be safe" commercial loads could (more or less) be loaded upward in the better revolvers of that day. Elmer and Skeeter were good friends to say the least, and Skeeter took to his ideas like a duck to water.

When the .357 Magnum was introduced it was deliberately made longer then the .38 Special so that it couldn't be used in some earier revolver. Without older era guns to worry about it could be loaded to pressure ranges far greater then would be safe .38 revolvers. However there was no reason that .38 Special cases couldn't be used to roughly duplicate the .357, so long as they were fired exclusively in .357 and not .38 Special revolvers.

"The" ,357 Magnum of those days was the Smith & Wesson model 27 or pre-model 27, that had .38 Special/.44 Special length cylinders. Because of this, .357 Magnum cartridges had to be made to .38 Special maximum overall length. This could be done by deap seating the bullet in .357 Magnum cases, but that was something that Skeeter (and Keith) didn't want to do.

Your observation about round-ball loads (called "gallery loads") is correct. Of course we don't do that anymore. :(

[NORTEXED]

My first pistol was a .357 Blackhawk, and the old gentleman across the street gave me a grocery sack 1/2 full of .38 brass he had been working out of for years. I started handloading and played with everything from 148 gr HBWC's upside down to shot shells, and finally wound up swaging my own. I bought a big box of Hornady 1/2 jackets and lead wire for swaging .38's and finally settled on an "as finished weight" of 200 gr. in a round nose configuration. Loaded to about 850 fps from an old Ackley book, they made great rounds for hunting small game, but I would have had no concerns about using them for self defense either. The soft lead wire meant the noses mushroomed nicely (even at the relatively low velocity), penetration was good (4" in a mesquite tree if I remember correctly), recoil was not bad (a little brisk but not bad), cases dropped out of the BH, and the short jacket meant no leading. I will try to remember to get one out of the "Odds & Ends" box, photograph it and post it tomorrow.

[Onmilo]

I used to read the heck out of Skeeter Skelton and seem to remember he was quite fond of larger calibers than .38 special, .44 Special being a particular favorite.
If he wrote about using .38 special cases I am sure, as another poster stated, it was for the sake of economy or all he had was a .38/44 revolver at the time.

[Wil Terry]

HE SHOT 38SPL THE LEAST OF ALL FACTORY AMMUNITION.
He also clearly stated that 38/44 handloads were among his favorites to use in his M27 5" sixguns as he always had plenty of fired 38SPL brass available to him from the different departments he worked for. The brass from 357MAG ammunition was mighty darned scarce in comparison in those days.

[Rexster]

I will back up Old Fuff's and Wil Terry's posts, based on my memories of reading Skeeter Skelton back in the day.

[Markbo]

Well I don't know Ol Fluff, but I know Will Terry and if he says so, you can bank on it.

Ain't that right you gruff old dog!? How are your dogs anyway? You let 'em in from
the freezing darned cold today?

[bannockburn]

In June of 1988, Shooting Times dedicated its monthly issue to the memory of Skeeter Skelton. In it was an unpublished article that he had written in the mid 1960s, and was discovered by his wife shortly after his death. It was entitled, "My Friend, The .357". In it he wrote about the history of the cartridge, and how it was his experience that the .357 was an excellent hunting cartridge. His favorite load was the Lyman 358156 gascheck bullet, designed by Ray Thompson, over 13.5 grains of 2400. He listed the muzzle velocity as 1200 fps. Coincidentily, this was the same loading that he use to put in a Remington .38 Special case because it had a lower crimping groove in it. Skeeter also listed three different categories (Light, Medium, and Heavy), of his favorite handloads.
He wrote: "The first two sections, light loads and medium loads, can be put up in .38 Special or .357 cases. I generally load these up in .38 Special cases so they can be readily identified and also because .38 brass is cheaper. The third section, heavy loads, should be assembled in sound, clean .357 cases. While not each is a maximun load, they perform better than any combinations of the same bullet and powder that I have tried."
One of his favorite light loads, using the Lyman bullet, was over 5.3 grains of Unique, giving it a muzzle velocity of 900 fps. Again with the Lyman gascheck bullet, he loaded it with 15.0 grains of 2400, for 1450 fps, in the heavy load section. At the end of the article, Skeeter summed it all up by writing: "If I had to choose just one gun to side me for the rest of my life, be it handgun, rifle, or shotgun, I would select a .357 Magnum revolver." Pretty much says it all.

[Old Fuff]

Well I don't know Ol Fluff, but I know Will Terry and if he says so, you can bank on it.

Well I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Terry, but I did know Skeeter. ;)

I didn't get my point across to some it appears. Anyway, Skeeter was not a big fan of the .38 Special cartridge, but he did use it to handload rounds for use in his S&W model 27. Please note my comment in a previous post where I said:

However there was no reason that .38 Special cases couldn't be used to roughly duplicate the .357, so long as they were fired exclusively in .357 and not .38 Special revolvers.

He had gotten the idea from Elmer Keith, who also didn't have a high regard for the .38 Special. But using .38 cases was the only way he could crimp his bullet in the crimping groove, and get an overall length that would go into the shorter S&W model 27 cylinder. Needless to say, these handloads were not intended to used in mid-frame or small-frame .38 Special revolvers.

[usmccpl]

In the book "Huning for Handgunners" there was two articles by Skeeter Skelton. In one he talked about the 44mag stating it was good for hunting but thats about it. In the other he had though about what he would have if he could only own one gun. It was the 357 mag that he would own because it was better than the rest at the time.

[SlamFire1]

His favorite load was the Lyman 358156 gascheck bullet, designed by Ray Thompson, over 13.5 grains of 2400. He listed the muzzle velocity as 1200 fps.

I copied his load, but used a 357 case. I did not want to ever risk using that load in a true 38 Spl. Guess, what, 13.5 grs 2400 with a 158 L bullet in a 357 case gives about 1200 fps. And it shoots great. Even with a 158 JHP.

He gave out a number of loads that are still excellent.

[Shawnee]

Hi Bannockburn...

Tom Ferguson was one of the best friends I've ever had and, through him, I became acquainted with Dean Grennell, Jack Mitchell, and Hal Swiggett.
I never met Skeeter but, through association with the others", have been aware of the ambivalence toward the factory .38 Spec, loads and the fondness for .44 Spec. handloads. That crowd was generally even less enthralled with the 9mm when it came along. Of course that was late in these fellows' careers and the arrival of the "9" was just one of the flood of indications that the World changes.... a fact Tom's wife,Tina, pointed out to him about three times a day. LOL ! :)

This post doesn't add a lot, I know, but thanks for mentioning my old compadre. Tom. Character though he was, he was also a truly grand fellow. :cool:

[CSA 357]

I Also Remember Him Saying To Use New Brass For These Hot Loads In 38 Cases Csa

[wcwhitey]

I have loaded and loved the 358156 bullet. I grab it every time I can get it. It usually weighs in at around 170 grains with GC. Being a big fan of Skeeter I have also reproduced his 5.3 grains of Unique in the .38 Special cases (To only be used in .357 firearms). Very accurate and more punch than the average .38 +P. My other favorite is the 429421 in .44 Special at 7.5 Grains of Unique. What I love about Skeeter and off course Elmer is that they shot in large quantities. They had to be economical with their loadings (think about the time frame) but found accurate and powerful loadings that had practical applications. They simply knew what worked. Not like the modern LA County Range gun writers.

[vanilla_gorilla]

Where does one find the 358156? I don't seem to be able to locate any with gas checks.

By the way, 12 grains of 2400 over a hardcast 158 LSWC seem to farily closely emulate Skeltons loading. I get nearly 1200 fps out of my 6 inch N frame and only a hair less out of my 5 inch.

[bannockburn]

vanilla gorilla

In the loads that I listed from Skeeters .357 article, I forgot to mention that he was using an 8 3/8-inch-barrel to record the muzzle velocities. A couple of paragraphs after the load listings, Skeeter wrote: "Tests have shown that in cutting a 8 3/8-inch-barreled Smith .357 off one inch at a time only about 35 fps velocity is lost for each inch removed when factory or high-velocity handloads are fired. This means that the shooter who carries an 8 3/8-inch model that gives 1500 fps would still get 1415 fps out of a six-inch revolver and 1345 fps if he chopped her down to four-inches." Your loads sound like they're right on target.

[High Desert Hunter]

While I know it wouldn't be my choice to kill anything much larger than an antelope, I did watch my Grandad kill a raghorn bull elk with an old model Blackhawk and a 158gr JSP on the last day of elk season coming home from town. One shot maybe 40 yards, bull was down in about another 40 and kicking, one more shot to the head and he was all meat. A guy could survive if he had a 357, and while I didn't pay much attention to mine (50th Ann. Flattop) after I bought it, when the price of everything went up, my caliber selection settled on my 357 Magnum, and I am glad it did.

[Blackwater Red]

I was just looking for the old load of 2400 with the 356156 Gas Check LSWC, and came upon this thread. 20 years ago, I tried just about every load Skeeter published, but I cut it down a bit to shoot in my Model 19. I liked the load well, and seem to recall that I used 11.5 gr of 2400. I'll have to confirm this with my reloading log to be sure, but that was a really sweet load.
I had a Lyman 358156 mould, and cast my own lead/linotype bullets and applied the gas check when I ran the bullet through the lubrisizer.

Red

[jimmyraythomason]

I seemto recall Skeeter being quite fond of the .32-20 s.a.revolver.

[Lone Star]

Keep in mind that Model 19/66 revolvers have longer cylinders than do the Model 27 and 28. So, bullets can be seated out a little further.

Skeeter was quite fond of the M-19, but his real favorite was the M-27 with five-inch barrel. So, his .357 handloads had to fit that gun.

Lone Star

[SaxonPig]

Skelton's 158/1200 load is just slightly stouter than the factory 38/44 load (158/1140). I suspect the 38/44 guns and the Colt heavy 38s like the Official Police could handle it but it does just cross the line of good sense in a 38 revolver..

I have come to realize that it's very possible to have too much of a good thing. I developed a 357 load that I thought would be ideal for SD use (125/1600) but it actual shooting with 4" guns the recoil is just beyond the manageable level. It's not really unpleasant, but rapid fire in DA mode is simply not possible as the gun twists and slips in my hand too much and I can't maintain proper grip. I suspect the same bullet at 1,300 FPS would be much better suited for carry... although not nearly as impressive at the range.

But then, what's the point of packing the mighty 357 Magnum if it must be limited to 1300 FPS in order to control it? My Model 659 spits Winchester or Federal 115 "LEO" loads at 1250 FPS and in my mind there just isn't a whole lot of difference between a 125/1300 and a 115/1250 except the latter comes in a platform that carries 15 rounds on board.

Gee, maybe this is why I carry the 659 rather than a 357?

[Mainer2009]

I'm not sure the answer, besides my own opinion &that is..whats not to love about the 38 special? :) I've got a few in my collection, and they always make for a fun shooting experience.