Gun Free Zone killing list


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Erebus
February 8, 2008, 11:05 AM
I am starting a page on Gunpolitics.com (http://www.gunpolitics.com) to put a list of killings(whether a firearm is or is not the murder weapon) with the relevant information.

I am looking for people to help write it and keep it up to date.


Columbine High School

Location: Littleton, Colorado USA

Date: April 20th 1999

Casualties: 14 dead including the shooters(2) & 23 wounded



I would also like to include a very concise paragraph about each. Something that the casual reader can go through quickly so as not to burn them out after the 1st or 2nd one. Specifically pointing out how the current laws failed due to the murderers disregarding them. To point out how laws aren't preventing anything.

Any suggestions or offers to help would be appreciated.

Contributions can be sent to me via a PM.

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ZachB
February 11, 2008, 02:24 PM
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=us&q=school+shooting&btnG=Search+News

It's not definitive by any means, but will give you a lot to read through and post up.

RedLion
February 11, 2008, 05:54 PM
I like the idea, but make sure your sources are good ( cross check) and don't put down opinions, otherwise no anti-gun will believe it.

Erebus
February 11, 2008, 08:43 PM
I don't intend for it to be an encyclopedia of events more of a list to demonstrate how many of them occur in "gun free zones". Whether they are gun free by law or by order of the property owner.

Double Naught Spy
February 11, 2008, 10:56 PM
I don't intend for it to be an encyclopedia of events more of a list to demonstrate how many of them occur in "gun free zones". Whether they are gun free by law or by order of the property owner.

How can you demonstrate how many happen in "gun free zones" with just a partial list?

Also, if you want to demonstrate how many happen in gun free zones, you need to address the issue of context. For example, just how different are gun free zone events relative to non-gun free zone events?

Can you demonstrate that the shooters in gun free zones picked the locations because they are gun free?

Since you are including gun free zones of property owners, are you including homes and workplaces where the owner simply does not own guns, or just ones who have policy against guns?

To point out how laws aren't preventing anything.

This will be tough to substantiate. You are trying to prove or substantiage a negative. How do you know that gun free zones aren't preventing anything? If events have been prevented, there will be no record of the result. It very well may be that gun free zones have prevented some shootings.

novaDAK
February 12, 2008, 11:15 AM
If laws worked, prisons wouldn't exist because no one would be breaking the law and getting sentenced.

Conqueror
February 14, 2008, 11:42 AM
PM me your email address. I have a document which will be highly helpful to you - I have used the list of mass shootings published by the Brady Campaign and have highlighted most of the ones that took place in Gun Free Zones.

There are ~110 on the list. Over 40 took place in Gun Free Zones. Several others were ended by CCW permitees. About half the remainder were love-triangle or family killings, and the rest were workplace killings.

Double Naught Spy
February 14, 2008, 12:22 PM
Several others were ended by CCW permitees.

I would be interested in knowing which ones were ended by CCW permitees. That would be really beneficial. Crimes can happen just about anywhere and your reference to some of the stats indicates this is the case. Gun-free or not, there are shootings. However, showing where the good guys made productive use of their permits is a different matter. Chances are, you won't have them making use of their permits in gun-free zones.

Conqueror
February 14, 2008, 12:58 PM
It's important to note: I have only highlighted SOME of the gun-free zones, ie those that are most obviously gun-free zones like school shootings. I have not highlighted any of the workplace or shopping mall killings because I don't know off the top of my head whether or not company/mall policy allowed legal guns or not.

Most large employers have no-gun policies, so I suspect the actual number of Gun-Free Zone massacres significantly exceeds the ~40 I have highlighted so far.

Citroen
February 14, 2008, 01:35 PM
CQ, Westroads Mall (Omaha) and Trolley Square Mall (Salt Lake) are posted as "Gun Free"; Tacoma Mall is also posted but the sign has no weight in law and that is why Dan McKown was able to carry there.

Criminals do prefer unarmed victims.

Thanks for compiling the list.

Chapel Hill, - you are in the heart of Indian country!!

Good luck.
John
Charlotte, NC

Conqueror
February 14, 2008, 04:29 PM
Ha, tell me about it. Thanks for the info. I'm counting posted gun-free zones as gun-free zones even if they do not carry legal weight, as I believe some CCWers will still leave their pieces in the car to be compliant with the property owners.

A stupid question: Is Tacoma Mall in Tacoma, Washington? I'm not seeing "Tacoma Mall" on the list.

Double Naught Spy
February 14, 2008, 05:38 PM
No, Tacoma Mall is not a gun-free zone and a CCW was shot and crippled there along with several others. At the time, McKown claimed to carry a gun to protect others, but when the event occurred, he drew his gun and then reconcealed it because he didn't want to be arrested for brandishing. At a lull in the shooting, he stood up from behind cover and yelled at the gunman who then promptly shot him multiple times. McKown's gun was never on target and never a factor. Mckown says the shooter was quicker on the draw than he was. McKown would have been drawing against a drawn gun, so he had already lost the draw by entering the fight with an undrawn gun.

So the Tacoma Mall is a non-gun free zone where a licensed CCW person was present and who apparently didn't understand the law well enough or understand his capabilities well enough and just ended up as another victim.

Citroen
February 14, 2008, 08:33 PM
OO, I have not been to Tacoma (it is in Washington state) but a local there stated that the mall has the signs that show a gun within the red circle and a slash across it. He also stated that the Washington state constitution protected the right to bear arms so that places that prohibit your doing so can only ask you to leave - it is not a crime as it is in my state.

I guess if you really want to know for sure you can call the mall management company. The research that I have done supports the above statement.

How Dan reacted and the reasons that he gave for not shooting the gunman have been stated and rehashed many times. In an interview he gave his reasons for not shooting. If you search you can find it.

I think the issue had to do with shootings in "gun free zones". Largely due to Dan's actions no one was killed in that mall attack.

John
Charlotte, NC

ZeSpectre
February 14, 2008, 09:00 PM
Damn, we have another one to add to the list.
Northern Illinois University

nainc
February 14, 2008, 09:22 PM
Erebus,

Don't forget the courthouse shooting in Tyler, TX. Couple of years back now. Come to think of it, there's probably more than that in various municipal courthouses, offices, etc.

Double Naught Spy
February 14, 2008, 09:40 PM
Citroen, right my understanding was that the gun with a slash through it wasn't a legally binding form of trespass warning in WA state. The sign simply says they don't want guns there, but doesn't preclude you from having legally carried guns there. So it was not a gun-free zone. People with concealed carry permits in WA understand that the sign doesn't actually preclude them from being able to carry. The mall's mgmt simply doesn't like guns is all it really says.

As for Dan McKown being a CCW person who kept the gunman from killing people, the fact that Dan didn't use his gun makes the CCW aspect moot. From Dan's own statements, it doesn't appear that he did anything to stop the shooter as much as he was simply one of the last victims.

targatop
February 14, 2008, 09:53 PM
At least this site is trying to promote the pro-gun arguments.

Do "gun-free" zones encourage school shootings? (http://redblueamerica.com/topic/2008-02-14/do-gunfree-zones-encourage-school-shootings-970) article at RedBlueAmerica.com

Looks like they allow you to vote on which side is right.

targatop
February 14, 2008, 09:56 PM
Duplicate - sorry.

gunmetal
February 18, 2008, 01:59 AM
If guns are prohibited at a site (whether by law or by stated policy of the property owner), then it's safe to call it a gun-free zone.

akanotken
February 18, 2008, 07:50 AM
This is your idea, and you can run with it how ever you will.

For this post, I use the term perp to mean someone suicidal and bent on not going alone. I use perp only because it's concise and I'm lazy :)

I don't think the real issue is whether it is legal to carry but whether the perp believes he's in a gun free zone. I know it's harder to show, but a single case isn't what you are looking for, rather a preponderance of cases. i.e. on any one case it may not be absolutely known.

So, in this light, the sign with a slash thru the gun was enough to make it "gun free" or "safer" for the perp, not whether it actually worked or diminished CCW.

Also, in my uniformed way of thinking, I don't know that a perp actually looks for gun free zones as much as he avoids areas known to have guns. Almost the same. I strongly doubt anyone going into a home actually thinks the home owner is armed. His doubt is likely strengthened in city's with bans or hurdles to gun ownership (chicago, NYC, DC come to mind).

While I strongly believe I'm right, I also realize it would be hard to "prove" my case (which has nothing to do with rather it's correct or not).

This really only pertains to suicidal fame seekers. Love triangles, employer haters, etc have to be looked at in a seperate light. Some similarities, but some differences, mostly in the degree to the aversion to guns.

List of places I hate not being armed include gun free:
Amusement parks
Church
Museums
Schools
School functions (i.e. football games)
Airports


I swear, if I were a criminal, I'd find a way to use the airport terminal to dearm my victims. Follow them from the terminal, try to tag arriving passengers (i.e. follow ones from the car rental area's)... I really hate the principal of it, and as someone who travels it bothers me that the hassle of traveling with firearms usually means I leave mine at home :(

Sadly, I predict that there will be an "event" at some amusement park. Doesn't seem too difficult for someone to smuggle in (tossed over a wall, etc)

Sorry so gloomy, must be the Monday morning blues ... ?

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