[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Hi, Dave,

I've been over the 870-vs-everything-else debate a few times now. The way I see it, the downside to 870s is speed in getting off two shots, and the mechanical differences aren't going to go away. But maybe, as you've suggested, one could train enough to overcome that speed difference enough to do decently at clay games.

Suppose that Shooter X is a newbie who wants to shoot clay games with an 870. How could he get up to speed quickly? Are there any kind of drills that he could do at home? On the range?

Thanks,
- pdmoderator

[Dave McCracken]

Tall order, but with the help of the regulars maybe we can lay out a training regimen.

Obviously, some autos can be cycled faster than even the best pump. The tradeoff is reliability. Pumps ARE more reliable.

This gap is narrowing as autos improve and people learn to maintain and operate them.

What isn't narrowing is the price gap. Decent autos cost way more, often twice as much or more. Any of the Big Four pumps run less than $400 used, USED autos of top quality run more. That recent post about 11-87 Police turnins for $550 is a good deal indeed.

$550=one used 870 and a mess of ammo and range tickets. Or two used 870s.

Since economics play as big a role here as in other areas of endeavour, pumps will be with us for a long while yet.And some of us just plain LIKE them. Nuff said.

For the record, a good hand with an 870 gets shots off faster than duffers do with any kind of semi-autoloader. Jerry Miculek's performance on American Shooter mentioned here before of 5 shots from an 870 in 2.5 seconds proves it can be done.BTW, all hits. Officer Miculek is a world class athlete and trains hard. Any of the auto fans here that can surpass this with a gas or recoil operated auto, please sing out.

I got fast by practice, though at the time it wasn't meant as such. It was just shooting, and I still mess up on occasion. And I'm still not that fast, there's no red S on my chest.

The key is going for smooth. Once smooth, speed shows up on its own.

For live round practice, I suggest shooting fast COFs at any target you choose, or doing some clay game with lots of doubles.Use the lightest loads you can make or find for starters, work up as proficiency improves.

At informal skeet, with permission of your buddies, one could load up four rounds at Station One, and have the guy holding the control push each button in fast sequence on report. High house, low house and double right behind each other. Same at 7. Do a double from Station 8 for fast and close shots.

For single shots like trap,still pump. You can use the exercise picking up all those empties, anyway.

For home practice, make up or obtain dummy rounds and snap caps. The red and clear plastic numbers do not hold up well to cycling through a pump repeatedly, but others may. Anyone with a shotshell reloader can make up dummies, use hulls different from your regular ammo.

With a shotgun PROVEN TO BE EMPTY,load up 2 dummies and pick out two or more spots on the wall.For safety's sake, do this in a room with NO real ammo. Mount, point at one, dry fire, go to the other, dry fire again. When this is easier than when starting off, start at the other point.

Next, load up a full magazine with dummies and go from one point to the other and back.Pump hard and fast. Note that if one torques the forearm much, it tends to glitch even the best shucking.Work on this and have fun too.

Maybe a little on form will help. Stance should be well forward, and the support arm should be helping PULL the weapon well back into the shoulder cup. This gives the loading stroke a head start. Adjust as needed, some pumps will glitch, mostly newer ones, if the pulling is emphatic.

I advise rookies to bring the firing arm elbow up shoulder high to help get the butt into the cup, but holding it at 45 degrees seems to aid flexibility a bit. Do it your way but try both. The support elbow should not be locked, but have a little bend to it.Experiment with where you grip the forearm to find the best point for you and mark it with tape or something for consistency's sake.

HTH, and let's see what the BB think tank can add....

[Preacherman]

This quote is from this thread (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=128527) on our predecessor forum, The Firing Line. It's part of a report I did on Massad Ayoob's LFI-2 and LFI-3 courses.
The shotgun work was also very interesting, particularly comparing pump-action to semi-auto for defensive use. I had always preferred pump-actions for reliability, although conceding that semi-auto's were faster in operation. This was amply borne out on both LFI-2 and LFI-3, especially the higher-speed runs in the latter course. Literally every semi-auto shotgun on the course (ranging from Benellis, Remingtons and Mossbergs to a magazine-fed Saiga AK clone) suffered one or more malfunctions, taking the weapon down during a course of fire. My reservations about their reliability were amply confirmed! (The sandy shooting range was a real problem in this regard, with dirt getting in the actions.) Pump guns were far more reliable, PROVIDED THAT the operators didn't short-stroke them under the stress of high-speed drills. This particular failure was very common. Mas observes that a competent shotgunner with a semi-auto weapon should be able to get five rounds of buckshot into a standard target at 7 yards in one second or less, and a competent pump-gunner should do the same in 2 seconds or less. On LFI-3, we were challenged to meet this standard. The fastest semi-auto shooter managed it in 1.67 seconds, and the fastest pump-gunner (yes, it was me!) managed 2.03 seconds with an 870. Fun stuff!
My five shots in 2.03 seconds were using buckshot, aimed at a standard ISPC silhouette target. I managed to hit with all of them, despite the speed of pumping - no porting, no compensator, no recoil absorbtion device. Sure, a good semi-auto gunner could (and did) beat that: but I'm not unhappy with a pump-action's speed of operation.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Thanks, Preacherman. I saw this quote in the back articles. But I just now noticed something strange:Mas observes that a competent shotgunner with a semi-auto weapon should be able to get five rounds of buckshot into a standard target at 7 yards in one second or less, and a competent pump-gunner should do the same in 2 seconds or less. On LFI-3, we were challenged to meet this standard. The fastest semi-auto shooter managed it in 1.67 seconds, The fastest semiauto shooter there still couldn't meet Ayoob's standard?

Man, I ain't sure I could do that with handgun, and I've been doing at least a few defense drills twice a week for a year and a half!

- pdmoderator

[sm]

Suppose that Shooter X is a newbie who wants to shoot clay games with an 870. How could he get up to speed quickly?

What I did. I had chalked my garage floor with the Skeet/SC stations. I had taped /or had hanging targets to represent clays in flight. I also used a spare bedroom with pictures of targets at various angles. I dryfired everday at least "100 rds"-which equated to a round of skeet. I have been know to dry fire as much as 1k rds a day. I used weights on forearms and/or the gun. In my sane days 500 rds was normal.

I could shuck quicker than a semi. But even when I used a semi or O/U I still dryfired them and had an advantage. I had built up myself and stamina, muscle memory was ingrained, pointing and swinging was ingrained.

I used an dowel rod with a length of rope and weight and rolled up and down to build up hands, wrists ...

I also used only midi or I/2 of a target-for my targetrs I only "see" the leading edge--thats all I want to see. My Focus sharpenrd

Repetition becomes habit--habit becomes faith.

If I can see it, its down...I say this but a shotgun becomes an extension, just like pointing a finger.

Learn the proper technique, smooth and correct, then speed will come.
Many new shooters are plumb tuckered out after a box, then the fatigue causes poor form, then the recoil becomes apparent, then the flinch.

I live fired 100-500 rds a week, I have run 25 K in a year. Heck totin 'an 7.5 # gun on a bird hunt was nothing...and had stamina to raise and get on bird fast. I have been sent back to the truck and made to hunt with single shot 410 because nobody else would get on bird quick. that didn't work so I had sit out the last coveys with the pups...and my limit.

I originally never intended to compete. I was sick and embarrassed that a box of shells only felled 2 doves, or I couldn't hit a duck. My mentor still razes about my first round of skeet years ago...2/25. My best dove hunt ...15 birds using only 13 shells. I want to even beat this for myself.

How bad do you want it? Whatcha gonna do?

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

How bad do you want it? Whatcha gonna do?Nothing all that serious! :D

I just want to go out and shoot some trap and sporting clays, with a gun that would be reliable enough for HD should I need to go that route. (That's covered by my USP currently, but I'd like to keep my options open.)

Buying two special-purpose shotties is prolly not an option for me -- not if I want to maintain marital harmony. :D Also, as many here have said, I want to train with what I'd use. So I was exploring one way to do that.

Since I wrote the original post in this thread, I went back and re-read some of the postings on Benelli reliability. Most people seem happy with 'em. So, right now, I'm leaning toward going that route rather than drilling on a pump gun. (My actual buy, if it happens, will be some months off, so I may be convinced a different way by then.)

Thanks for all!

- pdmoderator

[Dave McCracken]

You're very welcome,pdm. A coupla things....

Like Bill Jordan said, there's no second place winner in firefights.However, 5 shots in the time it takes to sneeze is probably going to take the gold, if they're hits.

Remember that in times of crisis the body goes through some changes. Fine motor skills diminish, peripheral vision vanishes, and strength increases, sometimes amazingly so. While hunting is not combat, still hunting in brush can make a shotgun that feels heavy and swings like a railroad tie turn into Zorro's rapier when a flush happens. Adrenaline is to us like Nitrous Oxide is to dragster engines.Conscious thought stops, and we act and react as we have trained. IF we've trained.

Benellis are good shotguns. More important than the hardware is the software. Training, expertise, conditioning and mindset count much more than the name on the receiver.

Any shotgun that can pass that Ayoob reliability test (200 rounds glitchless) is likely to be a good defensive shotgun.

I suggest hanging out as a range or training facility, trying out different name brand shotguns, and going with what works for you. Adjust the fit, get your form down and catch up with re1973's round consumption.

HTH and have fun...

[dave3006]

I have to respectfully disagree. I have owned 870s. I now own a M1S90.

In my shotgun classes, the Benelli's are at least twice as fast as the pumps. It is not even close. Supposedly, people can be faster with the pump. However, I have seen more short strokes when students and instructors get excited in timed shoots.

The theory that pumps are reliable ignores the human factor under stress. Under stress humans screw up and shortstroke. I have done this and witnessed this many, many times.

My Benelli has never malfunctioned on me once with 00 buck. When I compete against a 870 or other pump, I am usually done before the other guy is half way done.

It is not even close.

[riverdog]

I'm back, had to weigh in on this topic. I've shot Skeet with an 870 and I have connected with both birds shooting doubles; it's very doable, just more work than with an O/U. I don't and won't own a semi, I've seen too many fail to function on the range (now someone jump in with how much better a Benelli M1 is :rolleyes: )

[Dave McCracken]

(Flexing Moderator Muscles)....

Guys, this will not become a "My shotgun can lick your shotgun thread".

The original question was about shooting clays with an 870. We've covered some ground and drifted a bit, but let's keep to the High Road and not confuse the issue.

Again, software is more crucial than hardware....

[Dr.Rob]

Even some informal hand thrown trap can work up your skills. Ever go out to the rifle range? You shoot what 20 rounds? (I'm talking about most guys sighting in their deer rifle).

Each time I take out the shotgun I shoot a hundred or more. Or at least until we are out of clays. A couple of friends shooting in an afternoon is worth more than just bonding.

Try shooting at doubles, or high and low. Mix it up so the shooter doesn't know where the clays will run.

You might also try a round of sporting clays. Its a difficult game, but many range instructors will show you where the birds will run and only lanch the second clay after he hears your first shot. After a while you can graduate to not needing that handicap.

Being fast has much more to do with paying attention and being aware than it does mechanics.

Hunt. Upland if you don't like sitting in swampy cold places, rabbits if you don't like the taste of game birds. You'll get so fast it will scare you.

As for short stroking, the only time it happened to me was in a match and I was doing something I hadn't practiced much, shooting on the move with a shotgun. I also didn't miss any of may atrgets and still finished in front of many semi auto shooters. I'm not saying this to brag, I'm saying I shoot well because I'm familiar with my shotgun and I practice enough to stay sharp. Being fast comes along with that.

[Correia]

I know for an absolute fact that you can be almost as fast with a pump as a semi-auto. And a pump in the hands of a expert user will easily trump an auto in the hands of a average shooter. Expert vs. expert, the auto will probably win, but not by as much as most people would think.

I'm the biggest shotgun nut in my local club (3 gun). I win probably 9 out of 10 of our shotgun stages. I shoot an 870. I can run a Dozier (5 shots on 5 targets at 10 yards) drill in 2.11 seconds. The world record with a pump is at 1.8 the world record with an auto is around 1.5.

The people short stroking their guns are doing it because of inexperience. If you have invested sufficient practice into it you can smoothly pump the gun in the time it takes for you to acquire your next target.

How I do it is that I am actually putting rearward pressure against the pump as I pull the trigger. This does two things, it increases the amount of control I have on the gun as it recoils, and the action is unlocked immediatly. I also use a very aggresive stance. If I am engaging a series of targets at an array, my weight is well forward and I'm standing on the balls of my feet, actually leaning into the gun.

The biggest mistake I see with pump gunners is the shoot...dramatic pause...pump...shoot. Work that action as soon as the shot breaks.

Now it takes a ton of effort to get that good with a pump. Autos are easier to master for 3 gunning style stuff. But pump gunners should not feel like they are outgunned at all.

[dport]

Not trying to be a smarta$$ here, well maybe but not trying to be disrespectful about it, if pump actions are so great then why are most people shooting semi-auto rifles?

[Correia]

As I said before, for the same amount of practice you can be much much better with a semi. It takes more work to be just as fast with a pump.

Rifles are a different beast though. A semi rifle is usually more reliable than a semi shotgun. (the ammo works in a much more narrow pressure range than the shotgun with its bird shot to magnum slugs). And if you compare the serious pump rifles vs. the serious semi rifles you can see that there is just no comparison.

However when you look at shotguns they are a much closer race. Semi shotguns have some trade offs, so do pumps. Pumps are usually more reliable, autos are faster. Though this can go either way depending on the specimen. However you still end up with a comparable weapon, with comparable capabilities.

In my sport, 99% of the top shooters use semi-autos. Because to these guys .01 of a second can be the difference between victory and defeat.

I'm still a dedicated pumpgunner though. :) Let me see if I can get a little video and show you guys that a pump can run just as fast in the hands of somebody who is familiar enough with it.

[ShaiVong]

Correia, I would love to see a video of a really great pumper going to town.

[Mike Irwin]

"But maybe, as you've suggested, one could train enough to overcome that speed difference enough to do decently at clay games."


I recently used my S&W 3000, which is essentially a metric copy of the 870, to break 44 of 50 targets at wobble trap.

I don't think speed of working the action was really an issue for me...

[kudu]

Pump guns are right at home on the skeet field. I am not a big pump gun person, I own and shoot several including Win M12, Win M1897 with a poly choke, and a couple of 870 Wingmasters,20 ga and 28 ga. My averages do not drop by more than 1 or 2 birds per 100. You don't have to be super fast to shoot skeet but as the saying gos on the skeet field "shoot them one at a time, don't worry about your second bird till the first one is dead."

I'm not a super fast shucker when it comes to pumps but I always have plenty of time to pick up my second bird when using a pump.

[Correia]

ShaiVong, working on it. I need to get a copy from a friend of mine and I'll post it here.

[sm]

Correia,
I for one would be appreciative if the video also showed how you speed load. You spoke of this on an earlier thread. I have an Idea in my mind what your doing, seeing it would be great. If another video/thread is required, and not too much trouble...well could ya uh please ?
Thanks.

[Correia]

re, a buddy of mine took some digital video at the last match. He asked for me to do a little shotgun demo for him. I just screwed around for a few drills, I can't recall if I did a speed load in there or not. I'm just waiting for him to give me a copy. He should be at my match tomorrow so hopefully he will have burned me a copy by then.

[ShaiVong]

awesome!