Mitchell's Mausers


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rjostma
February 9, 2008, 10:21 PM
So many people post messages warning against the evil of MM. I've purchased from them, several of my friends have purchased from them and there has never been a problem. When I called to purchase my M48, it was explained to me exactly what I was purchasing. They even agreed to take the rifle back if I was not happy with it when it arrived. If anyone was being mislead, it was me misleading myself and they set me straight about the gun.

It also seems that warnings come from people who know someone, who knows someone else, who heard someone, somewhere, is unhappy about their purchase. With MM offering to refund your money if you're unhappy, how can anyone end up unhappy?

I was treated well, and ended up with a rifle that I feel is worth much more than I paid for it. I'm hoping to grab another one before they are all gone. Where else can you purchase a brand-new 8mm Mauser for $400? Current production Mausers costs over a grand. The museum grade M48 I purchased is in mint condition, completely flawless and costs less then a day's pay. How can I go wrong? I don't have any complaints against Mitchell's Mausers.

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MHBushmaster
February 9, 2008, 10:34 PM
Well, for starters "museum grade M48 I purchased is in mint condition" is a complete crock of you know what. I would like to understand what you think about your M48 is being worthy of the phrase "museum grade".

MM scrubs any authenticity out of their rifles, grinding off serial numbers/stock markings, re-stamping serial numbers to "force match" parts, and a liberal application of a belt sander ditto polyurethene does not make the scrubbed M48's they're selling "a brand-new rifle". Not by a long shot.

The collector value of $400 MM M48 is waaay less than what you paid, but at least you seem to be "happy customer" if not a suscipious "advocate" for Mitchells Mausers.lls

TexasRifleman
February 9, 2008, 10:36 PM
Why does this sound like a MM employee here?

First post to tout a well known scam?

Alrighty then.

Daemon688
February 9, 2008, 10:54 PM
If you like paying lots of money for a refinished rifle I guess MM is the way to go. I also have plenty of doubts that any of the stampings are authentic as well. Anyone can buy a surplus rifle and make it all new and shiny. If you want to pay someone to do it for you and put it into a fancy box more power to you. I enjoy my un-molested piece of history.

Green Lantern
February 9, 2008, 11:01 PM
:banghead: So MANY milsurps I want to own, before they're gone....but so LITTLE money....:(

phantomak47
February 9, 2008, 11:06 PM
Is this a joke or something? My C&R license thinks its pretty funny........

Samuel Adams
February 9, 2008, 11:09 PM
If anybody can corroborate these accusations against MM, I'd like to know. The advertise regularly in the VFW Magazine.

takhtakaal
February 9, 2008, 11:10 PM
I wonder how they wrote this one up on the job description.

"Will post on at least five gun boards each week, with newly assumed anonymous nicknames, to promote the Mitchell's Mausers brand name and defend employer from defamatory remarks on the part of participants therein."

:D

tinygnat219
February 9, 2008, 11:17 PM
Beware the Mitchel's Mauser folks.

When they were advertising their "Tanker Mauser". I called and asked where the guns had been gotten having been new to the C&R market, I had never heard of these things. Turns out they were new production Yugo M-48s that had been modified. Told them they were misleading and hung up.

TexasRifleman
February 9, 2008, 11:20 PM
If anybody can corroborate these accusations against MM, I'd like to know. The advertise regularly in the VFW Magazine.

Try to buy one with a C&R license and let us know how that goes.
That should tell you what you need to know.

If you modify the weapon too much it no longer qualifies for a C&R, or if the age is wrong. If they are "authentic" and "collector grade" why would they not qualify for C&R sales? WWII Mausers should be older than 50 years yes?

Aguila Blanca
February 9, 2008, 11:23 PM
If anybody can corroborate these accusations against MM, I'd like to know. The advertise regularly in the VFW Magazine.
They advertise regularly in a lot of places. All that means is that they make enough money to advertise in a lot of places.

Accusations? Did you mean "facts"? Mauser M48: Read Mitchells' ads, and they make it sound like a genuine WW2 artifact. The FACT is it isn't German, it's Yugoslavian, and it isn't WW2 because the "48" in M48 is the year it was first produced. There are no "new" M48s, they are all surplus. And anything approaching $400 is highway robbery. I paid $147 for one with all matching (really matching, not force matched and electro-penciled) numbers. Sarco in New Jersey was selling them for $99, but if you called and asked they'd admit they were force matched numbers.

So if you think paying $400 to get a $99 rifle that someone cleaned the cosmoline off of is a deal, that's what keeps companies like Mitchells in business.

George Hill
February 9, 2008, 11:34 PM
Hey, don't be too hard on this guy... take it on faith this guy just ordered one, doesn't know all that much about the gun industry, and is tickled to death about his new Mauser. And that's cool. Geeking out about a new gun is what we are all about here. Right?

Samuel Adams
February 9, 2008, 11:36 PM
Lighten up boys. I'm just trying to look out for us Vets. Thanks for the info. I don't intend on buying one but a good friend already did. His rifle is yet to be fired.

TexasRifleman
February 9, 2008, 11:39 PM
Lighten up boys

It's not you, it's hard to go lightly on a company that so obviously preys on people that don't know much about the subject.

It's just not the right way to do business. It may work and be profitable, but it's not right.

Samuel Adams
February 9, 2008, 11:44 PM
Good point. My apologies for a misunderstanding on my part.

bogie
February 9, 2008, 11:54 PM
Ogre, gunz iz good and all that, but, sheesh...

If you have a friend who is looking for something PRETTY, it's a good way to get them "into" milsurp...

But if they aren't into a tad bit of work, then get them to call Cole's and ask what's in stock this month. And then order one, and beg 'em to pick you a nice one (and they're really nice folks). Then give it a live steam shower (which'll also raise the dents...), and let the wood weep in the back window of the car for a while (the ol' lady better love cosmoline...), and when you're done, you'll have a shooter...

(Currently watching Albert Lee, Eric C and Sheryl Crow do Tulsa Time... I've got a 92" screen, 7.4 surround, and 5,000 watts... Rock'n'roll, with a country flavor, and it's all good... And now it's time for some long-haired guy playing a beat up guitar with a hole in it... damn, I don't think the harp player has aged since Honeysuckle Rose...)

Impax
February 10, 2008, 12:31 AM
deleted

MassMark
February 10, 2008, 01:03 AM
Boy, prices have gone up up and away...I bought an M-48 at a gun show for $145.00 a couple of years ago - puppy looked brand spanking new and came with a slew of accessories. Shoots like a dream and was worth what I paid for it, (to me anyway), but I also know what it ain't.... ;)

JHansenAK47
February 10, 2008, 01:32 AM
I don't know about everyone else but I like the tanker mausers. I bought one in 308 and other than having to replace the magazine spring it has been a decent rifle. I wouldn't buy one of their overpriced m48s. However my little mauser has been a good rifle. I just wish I could have found a short surplus carbine with a good barrel. Probably would have cost about the same and came factory built to the caliber instead of rechambered. In either 7.62 or 30.06 would have been ideal, but I settled on the MM tanker. I don't regret buying it other than the hellacious muzzle blast. I wouldn't buy a MM except as a shooter and wouldn't pay more than what a comparable gun not from MM would cost.

GRB
February 10, 2008, 01:37 AM
A “NEW” Mauser, and it’s over 50 years old!

A genuine Mauser 98K, the Model M48 is the Strongest and Best of the original bolt-action Rifles. Made on German Tooling set up in formerly occupied Serbia. Military-New condition with clean, Bright Bores, and Teakwood stocks, with an American Owner’s Manual covering history, operation, and safety. “Military-New” means it is ready for you; cleaned and tested to assure safety and your satisfaction. Maintained Combat-Ready (and it still is) for over 50 years, now it can be yours. Original Factory matching serial numbers on all rifle parts. Preserved by an accident of history, supply is limited. All original accessories as issued at the time and shown here are sold separately. This Mauser is ideal for collecting, target shooting, hunting, or customizing.

We guarantee it!

Some people may be getting the mistaken impression that these rifles were manufactured by Germans during the occupation. That is not the case. These rifles were manufactured with German technology in Serbia after the people had driven the Germans out of Yugoslavia.

This is an important distinction, because that is one of the reasons why the Model 48 is recognized as a superior example of the K98 type military rifle. The factory in Serbia was not bombed, like the German factories during the war. The factory in Serbia had a good supply of raw materials. And the Model 48 was produced by free people, instead of forced labor. All of which resulted in a superior rifle in its own right, as well as an interesting piece of history.

Now I have to tell you, that description above does not sound misleading to me. It sounds pretty darned accurate a description of a surplus M48. I found that over at Mitchell Mausers, yes right there on their own web site - imagine that. Now if anyone wants to accuse me of being a Mitchell worker, let me tell you now, go blow-hard somewhere else because you know that is not at all true about me. In fact, i do not even own one of these rifles, but I do like to check oput what people say on these boards. Funny that MM seems to write it up just the opposite way of the how some of you say they describe them.

Of course they also have this write up, but it is not for the M48, rather for German K98s.

History Preserved with the German K98 Infantry Rifle
Mitchell’s Mausers announces the finding of a rare cache of near-new K98k Mauser rifles that survived the destruction of Nazi Germany. Even some special model variations that were produced during WWII are included: rare Nazi factory codes with year code markings, early pre-war Mausers with the famous Mauser ‘Banner’ marking, rare concentration camp rifles, and specially marked “SS” Gestapo rifles. Some K98 sniper rifles complete with the original scope are also available in limited numbers..

The Nazi’s marked every rifle with a secret factory code, a date code, and military inspection stamps with proof marks, depending on where the rifle was made. Many Mauser rifles were built in captured factories in Belgium (Browning) and in the former Czechoslovakia (CZ Brno); now the Czech Republic in addition to rifles intended for other countries. The ‘bnz’ code with the single (Gestapo) rune and the “41” code on the receiver shown here say that this rifle was built in 1941 at the Nazi concentration camp in Steyr, Austria, which was supervised by the infamous SS. Inspection team number 135 used the Weimar Eagle inspection stamp shown here and worked in the original Mauser factory from 1942 to 1945.


The Nazi Eagle, both with and without an associated inspector number, appears on rifles produced in the Nazi era. These two marking types are found stamped on various individual parts depending on when and in which factory the rifle was manufactured.

The Totenkopf (Death’s Head) was affixed to a small number of rifles that were intended for use by special ‘SS’ troops. The mark shown here was stamped on the barrel on the left side immediately ahead of the receiver. The Deaths Head was sometimes applied to the underside of the stock immediately behind the trigger guard in the underside of the pistol grip.

Of special interest are some sniper rifles that have the original long-eye-relief system; the famous ZF-41 models with the long-eye-relief scope mount built into the rear sight base. Some sniper rifle models have high-turret mounts and while others have the German long claw-type mounts’. The long-claw type is shown here.

All rifles have been factory overhauled and preserved in military storage since mid-1945. Now to comply with U.S. insurance regulations, all rifles are torn-down, re-examined, cleaned and tested for fit, function, appearance and completeness. All rifles are provided with American Owner’s Manuals that include all the required U.S. Government safety-warnings.
Separately, American reprints of original German Mauser Operators Manual and separate Soldier’s Training Manuals for K98’s dated 1936 are available.

Original German accessories that were intended to be issued with the rifles during WWII are also at hand.
Mauser rifles are prized the world over for their strength, reliability and legendary accuracy. When the historical pedigree of these particular rifles is considered, they become doubly valuable. Over time prices will go up. Right now the basic Collector Grade German Mauser is available for $499. Other models are individually priced. Mitchell highly recommends getting the K98k now, while selection and availability are good.

Of course they do have a write up for an offering of actual German mausers, the K98 (not the M48 variant of the K98). Maybe some of you mix up that description weith their description for the M48 and therefore wrongly give them a black eye.

As for you guys debating th eword new, when it comes to firearms, a gun can be described as new even if 50 years old if never fired and kept in as new condition. This is certainly not anything that Mitchell's mausers has a lock on for sure!

All the best,
Glenn B

JHansenAK47
February 10, 2008, 01:46 AM
for you guys debating th eword new, when it comes to firearms, a gun can be described as new even if 50 years old if never fired and kept in as new condition. This is certainly not anything that Mitchell's mausers has a lock on for sure!

New is misleading a more proper term is unissued. 50 yr old wood stocks can shrink with age. Metal can also develop a patina with age. Besides alot of those M48s were briefly issued then refinished/rearsenaled and look new.

GRB
February 10, 2008, 01:55 AM
Besides alot of those M48s were briefly issued then refinished/rearsenaled and look new.
Do you know that for a fact about the mausers that MM is selling? They have quite the exact description of them. They explain they are 50 or 55 years old, they say they are military New and say what they mean by that. They have new in quottion marks which is a good warning that it does not mean brand new. They also have a link to a PDF file that further explains these rifles are 55 or so years old. Read page 2 of the PDF for more info - http://www.mauser.org/reviews/PR26+OF12%20495.pdf. They apparently are not hiding or mismarking anything. So I just do not see the word game thing you guys are playing as a big deal, they certainly advertise them as they are from what can be seen, and they apparently do not advertise them as some people above claimed.

That's the end of my two cents, I just wanted to give some more of the evidence that was available. I ahve seen evidence of Mitchell's advertising, now I'd sure like to see some of the evidence of what others claim are grounded down and restamped rifles sold by MM.

All the best,
Glenn B

dmftoy1
February 10, 2008, 07:29 AM
I shot next to a guy who had picked one up cheap from an "original owner" and it was a nice rifle. In comparing it to my 24/47 it looks to me like you're basically paying $400 for a $120 rifle that someone spent some elbow grease on and used a buffer and some flitz polish on. (The Buttplate and bolt were absolutely bright and shiny whereas mine has a patina.) The bore on mine looked as good, the wood was easily equal (although his looked much nicer because it appeared to have been sanded out/refinished.

I think the "mis-leading" bit is because if you aren't educated about Mauser's and read one of their ad's you get the impression that you're buying a WWII German Mauser. Here's a direct quote from their American Rifleman ad (this month)

Mauser K98-M48 Series - This WWII-era K98K Mauser variant known as the M48 is still Military-New. Built with German technology in Serbia after the Germans were driven out, the Victory Crest on the reciever has the date "1943" commemorating Yugoslave victory.

Now what you say about it being completely accurate is true . . . . but to a casual reader it appears that this is a K98 "Variant" that was built in 1943. The use of "variant" to me means that it has the potential to be "rare".

It's only if you know their reputation and think about the statement that you realize that it doesn't say they were made in 1943 (or 1944, or 1945). You have to further analyze the ad to realize it doesn't say "WWII" rifle, it says WWII-era . ..well what's the definition of an era? To me era would mean 1939-1945, but I'm sure that anytime "near" the war is probably the correct definition . . .again it's misleading to a casual reader.

To me you have to read their ad's like you'd read Bill Clinton's deposition's to really understand what the definition of "is" is.

Just my .02

Regards,
Dave

Ash
February 10, 2008, 07:44 AM
MM's original descriptions, before the current one, were very flagrant. They claimed they were real WWII mausers, claimed they were produced in 1943 and were used against the Nazi invaders. Somebody needs to go dig up an older advertisement and post it. I recall very well. That was where they got the very bad reputation. The statement:

"Some people may be getting the mistaken impression that these rifles were manufactured by Germans during the occupation. That is not the case. These rifles were manufactured with German technology in Serbia after the people had driven the Germans out of Yugoslavia."

came out after that ad campaign (and yes, it was the M48 not the K98k). We were incredulous that MM would blatantly lie about their rifles, and then say "golly gee, we don't know why anyone would believe these were WWII because, well, they're not and that means they are better."

Plus, the statement "All rifles have been factory overhauled and preserved in military storage since mid-1945. Now to comply with U.S. insurance regulations, all rifles are torn-down, re-examined, cleaned and tested for fit, function, appearance and completeness." Is a lie. These rifles were never overhauled in 1945.

MM lies. They lie regularly. When the lie becomes public enough, they change the story and act like everybody had gotten them wrong. That they charge very high prices, generally at least 3 times what others were selling, isn't a sin even if they are taking the ignorant for a ride. Telling the ignorant lies about the product (real lies not exaggerations) and then charging 3 times as much makes them slimy.

Ash

dirtyjim
February 10, 2008, 08:52 AM
buying a mauser from mitchells is about the same a buying a colt from david buehn. you'll get a pretty gun thats worth half of what you paid for it & you'll know never to do it again. early in my collecting i almost bought a 1911 from db & a mauser from mitchells. both of them were misleading & at that time the mitchells adds were outright fraud.
they both prey on novice collectors

Lovesbeer99
February 10, 2008, 10:56 AM
To start I don't know what the story is with the German K98 Mausers, so I'll stick with the M48's. I bought an M48 from Mitchells several years ago and when I got it, it was in new condition and not refininshed. I've heard they refinish the K98's, but this is an M48. I've also have never seen Mitchell's advertise an M48 as German. They clearly state that the M48 is a K98 variant but that it is in fact a Yugo made after the WWII.

There seam to be a lot of fantasies out there. People who read alot of post but not the actual adds. People who talk at gun shows but haven't seam an actual Mitchells. I've seen M48's for a better price, but I have yet to see an M48 in the same condition as mine for less money. Sure you can buy 1 for 150.00 in beat up condition, but the price doubles when it's like new.

My MM M48 was not refinished, and was in like new condition. It's a fact.

MHBushmaster
February 10, 2008, 11:41 AM
Lovesbeer,

I'm sorry to have to say this, but you are mistaken; every rifle that comes out of MM has been scrubbed and cleaned. They do not sell unmolested rifles. They are in business to scrub, molest and devalue Mauser rifles.

The harsh truth is that you don't have a non-refinished MM "M48 in like new condition". You have a scrubbed rifle that has ZERO mauser collector value. You have a rifle that looks nice but is void of any true historical value other than being a footnote as to how MM altered M48 rifles to be more aesthetically pleasing to the "un-informed eye".

You mentioned the high price that MM places on their M48's and you justify it by saying that the price was high because they "sell excellent condition" M48 rifles. Here is the issue, you said you bought your M48 from MM several years ago and feel good about your purchase because you feel you got a really good conditioned rifle...WELL: Several years ago M48's in excellent condition M48's were selling for around $100 everywhere, AIM, Interordanance, J&G, Sarco, etc. You didn't get a good deal several years ago, since the going rate of a true "excellent NRA condition" rifle was about 25% of what you paid...
Only recently has the price gone up on excellent condition M48's, so using today prices to justify the price you paid several years ago really doesn't make sense.

You see, MM buys the cheap and cruddy M48's that other distributors don't want. They get them for rock bottom prices, then they pay some hired hands to belt sand and scrub them and then they turn out the "new condition" rifles and price them at 4 Times what they paid for them. This is their M.O.

Only recently have they changed their advertisement verbage to counteract the internet backlash they were receiving, either way, they are still ripping people off that have little pertinent "mauser" information and sell a "shiney" product to people that don't know exactly what they are buying.

I'm glad you like your M48, but understand that it is not what you think it is. I enjoy shooting my M48's that I obtained with my C&R 03 FFL as well as researching and studying the Mauser rifles. I'm not trying to infuriate you, just trying to help you better understand the rifle that you have.

Lovesbeer99
February 10, 2008, 11:48 AM
I have an open mind and I'm willing to concede that MM may be refinishing all their rifles, but I have yet to see any proof. All I see is internet hear say. I'd think that if anyone had actuall proof there would be a class action suit of some sort. Some gun mag would have reported on it. There would be some evidence other than what is written on the net.

My gun looked, (still looks) pretty good. I don't see how they could have kept the chamber shiny and rifling so strong with a refinish. Maybe the blue and the stock but the rifling? If they did refinish my rifle, than hats off cuase they did a great job.

hksw
February 10, 2008, 12:23 PM
Welcome aboard rjostma.




Why does this sound like a MM employee here?

First post to tout a well known scam?

Alrighty then.

Personally, I would give rjostma the benefit of the doubt and view him as a satisfied customer of MM. It could very well be MM had serviced rjostma and his friends properly and fairly. I've never dealt with them myself as I've found M48As locally to my satisfaction, one being in pristine condition for less than half of what MM sells them for. (I have, however, never seem any of the offerings from MM first hand.)

TexasRifleman
February 10, 2008, 12:37 PM
Personally, I would give rjostma the benefit of the doubt and view him as a satisfied customer of MM.

Certainly a possibility, just seemed odd.

elmerfudd
February 10, 2008, 12:51 PM
I have a buddy that bought a used MM recently. It appears to be a 98K, (at least it has the eagle and the swastika), the stock is very nice except for a cheesy Afrika Korp decal on the side. It shoots about the same as my 24/47. Now my guess is that this was a RC 98K. I'm a little dubious about some of the stampings and that decal is obviously fake, but for $300 I think he got a pretty decent deal. It's a nice looking, functional rifle with a good finish for about the same price as a much rougher Russian Capture. I'd probably be scared to find out what someone originally paid for this bit of fakery, but for a range toy I think my buddy did OK.

alamo
February 10, 2008, 01:25 PM
I hope those folks that are happy with their MM M48s aren't using surplus ammunition in them. You should trust only Mitchell's Premium Ammunition in a Mitchell's rifle

http://www.mauser.org/ammunition/index.htm

By far the biggest Mitchell's scam is their Lugers and P-38s. These refinished, apparently non-matching (since they don't say they match, they almost certainly do not), are nothing shot of robbery. You'd have to be a first-class sucker to buy one of these:

http://www.mauser.org/autopistols/hist_p-08%20luger/index.htm

http://www.mauser.org/autopistols/hist_p-38%20walther/index.htm

Sniper4Life
February 10, 2008, 01:33 PM
I got one more comment.. Since when is $400 a days pay?

elmerfudd
February 10, 2008, 01:48 PM
I was wondering that myself. To be getting $400 for a days pay, you'd have to be making about $70 an hour before taxes.

Vaarok
February 10, 2008, 01:49 PM
I dunno, near a half a months pay to me. But maybe that's the point- some people prefer instant gratification despite a higher price versus the "hassle" of making informed buying choices and comparison shopping.

TexasRifleman
February 10, 2008, 01:57 PM
Out of sheer curiosity I worked it up, before taxes you'd be making $104,400 a year at $400 a day at a standard 40 hour week.

And because I like trivia like this, if you did make that much, you'd be in the top 15.2% in the US, pay wise. :)

akodo
February 10, 2008, 02:00 PM
MM is fine if you want a shooter. Realize however that they are post war guns and have no historic connection to world war 2 or any war hence their resale value is going to be much different.

Actually it compares quite closely to the brand new kahr/Thompson M-1 carbines being produced. If you want a good fun shooting weapon that looks like something from WW2, go get it you are golden. However, for the same money you can buy an old beater that actually saw war. In 50 years they will both be old beaters, but one will have historic significance because of it's involvement in a war, and a monitary value to reflect that. The new M-1 carbine will not, and neither will the MM

Lovesbeer99
February 10, 2008, 05:30 PM
So I've read the threads and I see the ads for the German K98's. Based on what I've read on the net, and not actually seeing it first hand, it looks like the K98's may be refinished with scrubbed numbers.

Now for my M48. I went back several years and checked the adds in gun mags to make sure I wasn't missing anything. If in fact my gun was scrubed and refinished I have a fraud law suite, and quite honestly, so does everyone else who bought one of these guns.

Regardless of if I overpaid or under paid, or got a good deal or even if I'm happy with the rifle, I'd like to know if I was scammed.

So here's my question. Does anyone have any proof? I've heard it's a well known scam, but I have yet to hear anyone with any evidence. Does anyone have any info other than hear say as to this scam? If so I'd like to see it.

Thanks in advance.

groda
February 10, 2008, 06:48 PM
I love this thread.

I wish I had a thread like this as a son in law.

Dionysusigma
February 10, 2008, 07:01 PM
Nice of 'em to show closeups, too...

http://www.mauser.org/photogallery/pages/M48_03.htm

Ash
February 10, 2008, 07:26 PM
Well, I mean this not as an insult, but your only choice is to call me a liar or accept that what I say is the truth. I watched when MM first started bringing these out and was outright lying about their age - saying that they were produced in occupied Yugoslavia by the Nazi's. Yes, they did. Check in the mags around 1996-1998.

Ash

dmftoy1
February 10, 2008, 07:31 PM
I can't prove/disprove that Mitchell's refinished your rifle, but on all the M48's I've seen from them the buttplate is polished "brite". On all the "normal" M48's I've seen it's blued. The wood is also pretty much always "Blonde" and if you get one where the guy they hired to do the work was lazy you can see where remnants of the old stock finish is near the butt plate and sometimes where the handguards meet the receiver on the top. (all depends on the guy running the belt sander I think.)

Just my .02

Regards,
Dave

another okie
February 10, 2008, 08:46 PM
The people that buy these are not collectors. If you are a collector, that's great, but don't assume people are being defrauded because they don't really care about the serial numbers. I know several people who have purchased them and are happy. They wanted something that looks and operates like a Mauser.

Even if all the allegations are true, those are satisfied customers. They didn't want to spend hours and hours learning about marks and comparative value and history and walking around at gun shows. They didn't want to spend hours cleaning off the Cosmoline. They wanted something that looked good and felt good right now. They got it.

So let's lower the temperature a little. Pointing out that these are not collector's items is appropriate, but some of the language is a little heated.

Ash
February 10, 2008, 09:01 PM
There are folks who are happy buying from Hunters Lodge, too.

Ash

GRB
February 10, 2008, 09:08 PM
I watched when MM first started bringing these out and was outright lying about their age - saying that they were produced in occupied Yugoslavia by the Nazi's. Yes, they did. Check in the mags around 1996-1998.

Ash,

I seem to remember their fairly early ads for these Mausers. I do not remember it the same as you do though. Now that could be for a few reasons, and not that I or anyone is calling you a liar. It could be your memory is different than mine because of:

1) You being wrong, me being right 100%

2) Me being wrong, you being right 100%

3) Both being wrong on different parts or aspects of the ads, and also being right on some of them.

Doers that make anyone a liar on this particular subject. I think not. Nor does Iit mean I or anyone on these forums has to accept what you say as truth or otherwise call you a liar. The reality of a situation often supercedes the truth of it. For example if you whole heartidly believe what youa re saying, but are wrong, that does not mean you were lying, but just wrong. Same goes for me with my viewpoint, and for others with theirs.

Of course there are some folks on this thread who seem to want to see it only their way. I am not saying anyone is lying, but please allow me to point out someone who tried to imply that Mitchell Mausers said you should "only trust their ammunition" in your Mauser. yes someone above said that, look here to a quote from Alamo (hey Alamo nothing personal just using this post as a good example of how things can get twisted, and I am not saying you twisted anything) Just read along at how I could interpet what Alamo said:

You should trust only Mitchell's Premium Ammunition in a Mitchell's rifle

Or was I just wrong when I said tha Alamo implied that Mitchell's Mausers said that or implied it in their ads. They do not say it, nor does it look to me as if they imply it, at least not in the ad to which Alamo provided a link. What they do say is this:

Brand new ammunition in 8MM Mauser caliber! You no longer need to rely on military surplus, because you can now buy full-power Mitchell 8MM Mauser ammunition in four different bullet styles. And that has never before been available!

Oh wait a inute, maybe Alamo was being sarcastic when he wrote what he did, and did not mean to imply that Mitchell's Mauser had said you should only trust their ammo. Or maybe he was saying that MM ammo is the only ammo you should trust because he thinks it is the cat's meow.

The truth is I cannot be sure what he was saying without some further explanation. He says one thing, the ad says another. That sort of is the same thing that is happening in this thread. There are plenty of people saying one thing about their recollections of ads, or bad mouthing MMs, or appearing to possibly do so, with no hard evidence on their side, while MM has the ads for all to see in black & white.

I think lots of folks who have participated in or read this thread would like to see some hard proof of the claims being made against MMs. That is a far cry from calling anyone a liar.

All the best,
Glenn B

cracked butt
February 10, 2008, 09:10 PM
Some of the unissued grade rifles Mitchel's sells are indeed unissued. They were charging $400 for these back when unissued M48s were a dime a dozen and everyone else was selling them for around $169.

I've looked at several examples of mitchells M48s over the last 7 or 8 years. The recent frop showing up in stores have stockes that may have been refinished, but the metal for sure has been buffed. I've never seen a M48 with the barrel bands 'in the white' other than those sold by mitchells. It looked like they were trying to put a bit of 'spit and polish' on a $100 rifle so thay could sell it for $299.

but on all the M48's I've seen from them the buttplate is polished "brite". On all the "normal" M48's I've seen it's blued


There might be variations that had blued buttplates, but every M48 and M48A has had a butt plate in the white.

GRB
February 10, 2008, 09:14 PM
Oh, by the way, if indeed Mitchell's mausers ads wereat first confusing, or possibly misleading (either purposefully or just because they were poorly written) isn't it wonderful that a company like Mitchell's Mausers cleared up any doubt about their rifles by clarifying what was supposedly in their earlier ads, and replacing it with what is in their ads now. Seems to me like a pretty honest company to have done such; I would think a dishonest company would have tried to keep perpertrating the fraud, if there was ineed any fraud at all.

Best regards,
GB

cracked butt
February 10, 2008, 09:14 PM
Quote:
I watched when MM first started bringing these out and was outright lying about their age - saying that they were produced in occupied Yugoslavia by the Nazi's. Yes, they did. Check in the mags around 1996-1998.

Ash,

I seem to remember their fairly early ads for these Mausers. I do not remember it the same as you do though. Now that could be for a few reasons, and not that I or anyone is calling you a liar. It could be your memory is different than mine because of:


I remember the wording as being 'produced under Nazi occupation'

The first M48s did not roll off the assembly line until 1950, the first M48As went into production 2 years later...

cracked butt
February 10, 2008, 09:21 PM
50 yr old wood stocks can shrink with age. Metal can also develop a patina with age. Besides alot of those M48s were briefly issued then refinished/rearsenaled and look new.


I have several rifles that are well over 100 years old and the stock to metal fit is something a modern gunsmith would envy. Properly curing wood blanks before cutting the stock greatly reduces warpage and shrinkage- an important step that modern manufacturers don't have the time or willingness to do.

Omaney
February 10, 2008, 10:12 PM
Certainly someone has one of these old fraudulent advertisements somewhere. I would like to see one. As far back as I can remember (not that far:o), MM has always described these M48 rifles as manufactured from German tech in Serbia. These MM threads pop up about every other month and MM's detractors only can produce "he said/she said" evidence of their fraudulent ways. Doesn't anybody have a scanner they could use to put this to rest once and for all?

Ash
February 10, 2008, 10:28 PM
Not real interested if you believe me or not. I do not lie and that is enough for me. I need not prove anything. Folks who choose to disbelieve those who, by the witness of their own eyes, who entered into long discussions for more than a decade now about the practices of MM, may wish to erect more hoops through which to jump. If you choose to ignore the legions of folks who have seen the fraudulence, fine by me. But the sheer number of complaints make up a mountain that one would think would be too hard to ignore.

http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=11256

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=39665

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=100531

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/mausers/28273-mitchellsmausers-com.html

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-178196.html

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=21982

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/24363/t/Removal-of-finish-on-Russian-capture-bolts-.html

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/mausers/22483-mitchell-s-mausers.html

http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/mauser/index.pl?noframes;read=8274



Ash

GRB
February 10, 2008, 10:41 PM
Remember Ash, you brought up the people must believe you to be a liar if they don't agree with you stuff. You bring up the lie issue again in this most recent post. I don't think anyone is saying you are lying. No one is getting personal with you, unless I missed it, but you seem to be taking it personally. The whole jump through hoops thing is far out. I don't think anyone is asking anything like that. Instead they are asking for some hard factual evidence for that about which others make claims, evidence that would contradict the current ads. That is a typical thing to request when disagreements about facts occur. Again nothing personal.

Regardless of the certainty you have about your memory, it is rather peculiar that no one has yet to show one of these ads! I too remember other ads they have had. I remember them being more like them saying they were made by the Germans, but also rememebr when read closely, they never said that. Now I could well have a faulty memory, and your could be correct, but please excuse me if I am going to believe for a omemnt that your memory is infallable because you may think it so. You could well be right, but I am a skeptic who prefers to see evidence of a thing. Sorry if that offends you, it was certainly not meant to, nor do I think were comments made by others asking for some sort of evidence other than say so.

As for anyone out there with a scanner and a real ad by Mitchell's mausers, please scan it in to your PC, and post a copy here. I would love to see it if only becaise it would or could settle this thing once and for all definitively.

All the best,
Glenn B

Ash
February 10, 2008, 10:50 PM
Yeah, me and many, many, many others on many, many, many other forums observing the exact same thing. That I find myself not alone is fine by me.

Ash

CBS220
February 10, 2008, 10:51 PM
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/838/mitchellsniperqu6.th.png (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mitchellsniperqu6.png)


They definitely seem to indicate that these are true 98s. Sorry for the crappy pic, I pulled it off google, my scanner is down.

If these are M48s and they are advertising them as K98s, that is at least a little dishonest. They use lines like "Hitler won't be making any more", which is true enough, but Hitler never made 48s in the first place.

If the gun is not "original", as is claimed at the top of the ad, then I would say that is definitely a lie. But true K98 snipers tend to go for more than that, in my experience.

buttrap
February 10, 2008, 10:54 PM
What convinced me was a couple years ago when they where selling 300 buck red capture P-38s for 1000 bucks. Came in nice wood boxes but still not a 600 buck box.

MassMark
February 10, 2008, 11:27 PM
I'm not so sure MM was buying "beat up rifles" and spit shining them, (whether they inflated prices or not is not for me to decide). My $150.00 rifle came wrapped in heavy arsenal paper that was inside a plastic sleeve. It was loaded with cosmoline, but as the cosmo came off, what appeared was a brand spanking new rifle. The bore was absolutely pristine - it looked like it just came off the line - no kidding. If MM's were/are buying the same rifles, it would not take much elbow grease at all to bring them to a LN standard.

Lovesbeer99
February 10, 2008, 11:49 PM
No need to spectulate - Go to the MM website and see the History of the M48. MM still posts the claim that these are new rifles. No joke.

The ads - OK this is what the ads claimed.

Nazi's occupied Serbia and tooled the factory to build K98's with slave Serbian labor. When the Nazi's were driven out, the Serbs kept building the rifles to use against the Nazi's. - Later after the war, Yugoslavia using the same factories, built the same rifle with some modifications using good strong steal and fine wood under the model M48. It was not a K98, it was an M48.

They were trying to sell you on the fact that the guns were built on German Tooling and were strong rifles. They never ever claimed these rifles were German or that they were built during WWII.

I'm not calling anyone a liar. I am asking for proof other than internet posts. I keep hearing that "I know a guy who" but I have yet to meet a guy myself.

Now, if in fact the M48's were refurbished then MM was frudulent. It does not matter if you like the gun or not. It does not matter if your happy with your purchase or not (both of which I am by the way).

If anyone has any proof that MM has pulled a scam, please post the evidence. I'm sure a class action suite will follow.


Thanks and shoot safe, I do.
Lovesbeer99

Ash
February 10, 2008, 11:58 PM
"They never ever claimed these rifles were German or that they were built during WWII."

In the MM Owner's manual (the current one) they state that these rifles were made near the end of WWII (their words, not mine).

Ash

cracked butt
February 11, 2008, 12:18 AM
Nazi's occupied Serbia and tooled the factory to build K98's with slave Serbian labor

No K98s were ever made in Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia originally got the tooling from Belgium before the war.


When the Nazi's were driven out, the Serbs kept building the rifles to use against the Nazi's. - Later after the war, Yugoslavia using the same factories, built the same rifle with some modifications using good strong steal and fine wood under the model M48. It was not a K98, it was an M48.

The only mauser rifles they might have made during the war were their own version of the FN-24, the M48 which wasn't made until at least 5 years after the war ended was a slightly modified M24.

They were trying to sell you on the fact that the guns were built on German Tooling and were strong rifles.

Even so, they were wrong.

MM might have changed their ads, but only after someone probably 'corrected' their made up history.

Lovesbeer99
February 11, 2008, 06:59 AM
CrackedButt - I just double checked and the MM website still says that the M48 was built on German Tooling and is in Military New condition with almost perfect bluing. Where did you see the new adds? Al the recent adds in my gun mags are trying to sell the K98 with the German marks, not the M48.

Also - where did you get the info regarding the Belgian tooling and that no K98's were made in Serbia? I'd like to look all of this up.

Is there anyway to verify on the gun that it was refinished and not Military New?

Finally - if I overpaid for my gun, say the 299.00 advertised price, how much is it really worth?

Thank you very much for your info, I appreciate it.

Ash
February 11, 2008, 08:29 AM
Generally, about half that, to $200.

Ash

cracked butt
February 11, 2008, 09:25 AM
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/9890/t/Yugo-M48-amp-tc-production-and-marking-data.html

alamo
February 11, 2008, 11:03 AM
Oh wait a minute, maybe Alamo was being sarcastic when he wrote what he did, and did not mean to imply that Mitchell's Mauser had said you should only trust their ammo. Or maybe he was saying that MM ammo is the only ammo you should trust because he thinks it is the cat's meow.


I was being sarcastic. MM Premium Ammunition is just like everything else MM sells - overpriced.


When they say, "you no longer need to rely on military surplus...", they may as well be saying, "you no longer need to rely on inexpensive, affordable ammunition that can be bought in large quantities and works just fine, now you can buy our overpriced commerical ammo by the 20 round box."

cracked butt
February 11, 2008, 12:13 PM
When they say, "you no longer need to rely on military surplus...", they may as well be saying, "you no longer need to rely on inexpensive, affordable ammunition that can be bought in large quantities and works just fine, now you can buy our overpriced commerical ammo by the 20 round box."

But does the cheap suplus ammo come with an official suitable-for-framing certificate of authenticity? :scrutiny:

Didn't think so....

alamo
February 11, 2008, 02:01 PM
But does the cheap surplus ammo come with an official suitable-for-framing certificate of authenticity?

Didn't think so....

You got me there. But you can always store the ammo in one the serial numbered walnut presentation cases with replica Blue Max medal used on their refinished, non-matching Lugers:

http://mauser.org/autopistols/hist_p-08%20luger/p08trio.jpg


My apologies to the MM fans. I can't help myself. They're just so easy to make fun of. Must...restrain...myself....

silverlance
February 11, 2008, 02:36 PM
Eh. MM guns are very nicely done bubba guns.
I like bubba guns a lot. Unfortunately, MM is selling these bubba guns at decidedly un-bubba prices.

LeibstandarteAdH
February 11, 2008, 03:48 PM
Try to buy one with a C&R license and let us know how that goes.
That should tell you what you need to know.

If you modify the weapon too much it no longer qualifies for a C&R, or if the age is wrong. If they are "authentic" and "collector grade" why would they not qualify for C&R sales? WWII Mausers should be older than 50 years yes?

+1 that should tell you everything you need to know right there. They can BS you, but they aren't taking the chance on BS'ing the ATF technical brach and the federal time to anyone who contributed...

The older Mitchell's adds are rediculas, they clearly tout a rifle with a polished silver bolt as a "WWII Mod 98" they are highly modified $99 M1948 Yugoslav mausers strait from the depereciated cellars under the Zastava factory that were 'looted' durring the numberous times of instability throughout the country, coupled with some good old slightly disguised stateside fraud. I actually own one of the early Mitchell's M48's, i didnt know it wasnt a K98 till a guy at a gun show made me look stupid by showing me that the parts would not even interchange.

elmerfudd
February 11, 2008, 04:20 PM
I don't see any reason why Mitchell's couldn't sell it's rifles as C&R's. They probably just don't like to. So far as I know, you can restore a C&R and it still remains a C&R so long as the parts remain the same and have not been modified.

LeibstandarteAdH
February 11, 2008, 04:43 PM
They probably just don't like to. (be able to sell to anything but an 01 FFL)

I find that highly unlikely.

But i could also be very wrong.

elmerfudd
February 11, 2008, 05:05 PM
Everything I've seen says that as long as the rifle remains in it's original military configuration, it's still a C&R. Now Mitchell's does specialize in overpriced, Frankenshined Mausers, but except for perhaps their sniper variants, they still are in their original military configurations.

BigGunsMoreFun
February 11, 2008, 07:12 PM
I bought one of their "Collector Grade" K-98 rifles about 6 months ago with my C&R license. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this gun. It shoots fine, the numbers match and it does not appear to have been refinished other than the normal clean-up I would give any milsurp gun.

My dad has a WWII K98 bring back that my grandfather brought back from Germany while he was there in WWII. The only difference in the two rifles is the codes are a little different and mine is a little cleaner than his.

I am thoroughly satisfied with the rifle I bought and the amount I paid for it. Anybody that tells you a genuine K-98 Mauser from WWII with all matching numbers is only worth $200 is living in the past.

I have shown my K-98 to several vets and expert collectors and they all say I got a damn good, authentic rifle for what I paid.

Now as far as the bayonet I bought from MM that is a different story. They sent me what was supposed to be the WWII bayonet for the K-98 with matching numbers on the scabbard and bayonet. They raped me for $350.00 for that. When I got the bayonet, I knew right away it was not a K-98 bayonet and it was not even a WWII bayonet.

I took it to a few vets I know and a couple of expert bayonet collectors. Everyone of them told me it was a Belgian Bayonet most likely made around 1924 and worth about $50.00.:cuss:

I called MM and asked them what they were trying to pull with the bayonet and told them that I had it appraised and what the results of the appraisal were. At first they tried to hand me a bunch of baloney about it being one of the rare K-98 bayonets with no markings on it. I flat out told the guy he was full of it.

He told me to send the bayonet back and they would refund my money including shipping one way. I returned the bayonet and got my money back except for the $10 it cost me to mail it back to them.

So, long story short, I see nothing wrong with their K-98s. I have had mine checked by several people that were there during WWII and know a K-98 when they see one. I am happy with it. I was not happy with the bayonet or the way they tried to screw me out of $350 for it. I also agree with most of the bad opinions on this thread about the M-48s and the P-08 and P-38 pistols.

I got a nice M-48 from Gunbroker for $150 with the bayonet, scabbard and sling. :neener:

You can find a better deal on a P-08 or P-38 anyday and most anywhere than the ones MM has. I have seen one of their P-38s. It was a joke. It was basically a $200 gun in an $800 box.

My buddy returned it as well after haggling with them on the phone a few times.

My 2 cents.

Joe

dirtyjim
February 11, 2008, 07:18 PM
look at the german sniper rifle in the add posted above. both of the rifles in that add have bolts that are in the white, german built rifles have blued bolts. those are not real WWII german sniper rifles

alamo
February 11, 2008, 08:09 PM
I bought one of their "Collector Grade" K-98 rifles about 6 months ago with my C&R license. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this gun. It shoots fine, the numbers match and it does not appear to have been refinished other than the normal clean-up I would give any milsurp gun.


I have shown my K-98 to several vets and expert collectors and they all say I got a damn good, authentic rifle for what I paid.


I've read extensively of the MM 98Ks on the Gunboards 98K forum. The experts there have nothing but the greatest of contempt for MM. They consider them to be charlatans of the first order, "carnival barkers" as one of them puts it. I guess you must have talked to different experts.


From the descriptions I've seen / read of MM 98Ks, they are nothing more the common Russian captures that have been cleaned up by MM. Some still have the RC "X" on the receiver. Some folks have reported that the "matching" numbers are nothing more than the Russian electropencil numbers that match or numbers stamped by MM to make them "match".

My dad has a WWII K98 bring back that my grandfather brought back from Germany while he was there in WWII. The only difference in the two rifles is the codes are a little different and mine is a little cleaner than his.


Mitchells strips all the finish off of the bolts so they're white. That's not the way they were when they were made/used by the Germans. Is all of the finish completely stripped off of the bolt of your dad's 98K? It shouldn't be except maybe wear around the edges.

Soybomb
February 11, 2008, 08:14 PM
Perhaps I'm just not trusting enough but something seems off when a brand new member makes his first and only post to tell us how great a very disliked company is and what a great value their museum quality gun is :D

BigGunsMoreFun
February 12, 2008, 08:17 PM
The bolt on my K-98 is not white and I never claimed it was a great value. I said I liked it and thought I got a good deal. It means very little to me whether you trust me or not.

The way some people sound on here, MM could sell you a pound of solid gold for $1.00 and you'd complain about it. I never said they were honest or a great company either. I just stated my opinion.

Most of the experts I know have been collecting, shooting and gunsmithing for the better part of 60 to 70 years or longer and many were in Germany during WWII.

I didn't just fall off the turnip truck myself. I've had this gun at many gunshows and people have offered me up to $700 for it. I turned them all down.

:rolleyes:

Lovesbeer99
February 12, 2008, 10:30 PM
Ok I'm back and I hope Crackedbut is still on -

I've gone through the ads and posts and opinions. I've checked with various sites including wickepedia and all claim that Most M48's were built and put in storage in Military new condition so the chances of getting 1 in that condition are pretty good.

I have come to the conclusion that MM has told some fibs. I don't know if they were just uneducated, or a really great scam, but my M48 was not built on German Tooling. Did I overpay? Maybe, but I guess it should be buyer beware. I don't know firsthand about scams with German K98's or bayonets or anything.

What does concern me and what I really want to know is - Is my M48 in military new condition or was it refinished by MM? I'm no expert but this does not look like it's been refinished. I've seen refinished Mosins and K98's and even old Mossbergs that were reblued and this does not look anything like any of those. I also don't see how you could keep the chamber and rifling as clean as this gun was compared to my M24/47 that was definately a used gun. How can you refinish rifling?

OK - so if I find out my M48 was not in Military New Condition I will consider getting with everyone else who bought one and start a class action suite cuase that's just wrong.

So - how can I tell if my gun was refinished? Anyone?

P5 Guy
February 12, 2008, 10:49 PM
http://www.miltecharms.com/rifles.htm#MAUSER
Sounds like a deal to me when compared to this.

Rshooter
February 12, 2008, 10:50 PM
Oh boy, class action..........

Guys, tell me where you can buy a weapon in the shape these weapons come in for the price you pay for these weapons. As for the tankers, buy a 30-06 or .308 for that price any where else.

I know some people love to trash Mitchells but let's get real. The snobbery really gets to me sometimes. Not everyone can afford to pay for a prime Garand or K98 anymore. Let those of us that cannot afford it get our toys too. :cuss:

Lovesbeer99
February 12, 2008, 11:50 PM
Rshooter - I'll be happy to sell you mine for the 299 + shipping/handling and what I paid in Tax and include all the accessories I got for it in the box. Just send me a PM with your FFL address we can work this out.

I'm also still waiting to hear or see some proof that the M48's were in fact refurbed by MM. I still have not recieved any responses. Being uneducated and claiming bad info about tooling is 1 thing, but actually rebluing a gun then stating that it is in MilNew Condition is a *&#@ty thing to do.

I'm not convinced it is a refurb but if I find out it is, I'll be asking for my money back. It has nothing to do with being a snob, and actually I've been defending MM till now. I like the gun and it is in good condition but I don't like to be scammed.

GRB
February 12, 2008, 11:59 PM
They definitely seem to indicate that these are true 98s That is because they sell both the K98, and the M48 version. See their website.

elmerfudd
February 13, 2008, 01:31 AM
The M48's probably didn't need much restoration. Aside from being absolutely saturated in cosmoline, many were in almost new condition. My 24/47 had bluing better than many commercial rifles and a bore that was like new. I paid $130 for it.

Ash
February 13, 2008, 07:21 AM
I'm pretty sure the M48's were not refinished as there was no need to.

Ash

Flyboy73
February 13, 2008, 07:54 AM
My first surplus rifle I got was a MM M48. Got it on sale at Dunhams for around $250. I knew nothing about surplus guns at the time, so got it thinking I was getting a WW2 gun. So I bit on there advertising. I had it for around 5 years now and it got me into the surplus collecting.

As far as the gun goes, I don't believe it was refinished or other wise touches. The gun was still thoroughly covered in Cosmoline. To say it was in new condition would not be a stretch.

Its probably one the nicest surplus guns I own. Worth what I paid probably not, but I am happy with it.

Brion

Ash
February 13, 2008, 08:03 AM
These days, milsurps have gone up in value so that the costs quoted on the MM's seem high but not insane. At the time, though, the MM's were three to four times the cost for the exact same thing sold by several distributors but without the cock-and-bull story. There is a reason why MM did not advertise in Shotgun News, because the truth would be revealed.

Fundamentally, though, the price was not bad when compared to, say, a Remington 700 or Winchester 70. Guys who did not milsurp but did read American Rifleman and just got finished seeing Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan, could be suckered by MM. That MM was selling rifles so high was their right. That they sold them because they were lying was the problem.

Anyone who bought one, paid way too much because they could have gotten the exact (THE EXACT) same thin from J&G, SOG, or AIM. They paid way too much, but in the end, they did get a Mauser-based rifle in excellent condition for less than the price of a Remington. That was enough for many.

The same thing is happening today with their Russian Capture K98k's, Lugers, and the like (that they say were refinished before the end of WWII (oh give me a break). Those who get snookered may be defensive about things, but to them, at least, the firearm in question was worth the price.

Ash

Lovesbeer99
February 13, 2008, 08:05 AM
So then the K98's are being refinished, but the M48's were not.

OK then I was dupped and overpaid, but not outright scammed.

Thanks and sorry for hijacking this thread.

Lovesbeer99 (but shoots safe)

cracked butt
February 13, 2008, 08:08 AM
Yes, there were a lot fo unissued M48s imported, some by MM, these are/wre real nice rifles, MM ssold them for around $400 based on their hype, other importers sold unissued rifles for well under $200.

There were far more rifles that were imported that had varying states of wear. Some of the MM M48s that I've seen recently have had parts in the white (barrel bands mostly) that aren't supposed to be int he white, and for which I haven't seen in the white from other importers. Maybe they were imported this way, maybe not...

Ash
February 13, 2008, 08:09 AM
Well, your value will return in time. At some point, these will increase in value just as Finnish Mosins and rifles from other countries. Your rifle will not be an investment, but it won't be a major loss, either. You still have a Mauser in excellent condition, right?

Ash

cracked butt
February 13, 2008, 08:12 AM
but my M48 was not built on German Tooling.

I did a little more reading....


It seems that the germans scuttled the Zastava/Preduceze-44 (sp?) factory and the equipment that was originally in it. It appears that that Yugoslavia did rebuild the factory using German equipment that they got through Soviet channels.

cracked butt
February 13, 2008, 08:14 AM
I would expect the price for pristine M48s to be worth $400 within a few years. Even the ratty ones are getting harder to find.

sig220mw
February 21, 2008, 01:48 AM
My son got me a mitchell's collector grade Christmas of 2006 and paid $299 for it and I love it....just like mr Bartley said, they didn't try to say it was a german gun they rightly said it was made by serbians on german machinery after the nazis were gone and was unissued. When it arrived it looked new and was covered with cosmoline. Shoots great, looks great and feels good on the shoulder. What else can you ask for. Try paying $299 for a "practically" like new gun with a mauser action these days. I bet it is not so easy. And this rifle really shoots well.....I'm happy and am going to buy my son a gun in the near future that he has expressed some interest in.

elmerfudd
February 21, 2008, 07:49 AM
Try paying $299 for a "practically" like new gun with a mauser action these days. I bet it is not so easy.

Actually it is. The M48's and M24/47's that were imported were in beautiful condition. I don't think they're being imported anymore, but if you go to a gun show you can still pick them up in excellent condition for between $150 and $250 fairly easily.

MilsurpShooter
February 21, 2008, 09:50 AM
Allright, I'll bite. I was just turning 18, was always a WWII history type and was just starting to get interested in the world of Milsurp. One of my magainzes had an add for Mitchells. I read it, and thought I would be getting a K98. Wasn't until some time after that I learned more about milsurps and what I really had.

Now don't get me wrong, my M48a is one of the nicer rifles I own. Came with bayonet, sling and the accessories, was pretty much devoid of cosmolene, great bore, good looking... Overall it's a nice rifle. My only point of contention is that it's not what I thought it was and it was overpriced compared to where I could have gotten it. The ads Mitchells runs now are DEFINATELY not what they were running 5 years ago. I would testify to that.

I look at it now and can only say Caveat Emptor. I look at them as sellers of refurbished rifles at a higher price. Good if you're looking for a shooter, bad if you're looking for a shooter and historical piece, but that's just me.

c5matt
May 30, 2008, 10:06 PM
guys,
i read all the posts in this thread and gleened some great info from it. here's my question............ i'm not looking for an investment out of a mauser, simply a mauser from ww2 with nazi markings that is a decent shooter that looks good and is fun to shoot. evidently called "bubba-ized" :)...
rather than buy a beat up one and clean it up some myself, am i better or worse served spending a little more and buying a mm @ $300? (knowing it's not terribly original and has been sanded, ect...) the ads appear to give you the option to buy a k98 that is date-stamped or a mod 48 if you specify.... do ya'll think the 98 at 300 bucks is alright for something to take out to the field to just have fun with? seems like there are some big-brained enthusists in here, so i'll value ya'lls opinions and thanks in advance for the thoughts!!!
ps....sorry if the question seems dumb, i just love firearms, i don't pretend to be an expert :)

buttrap
May 31, 2008, 06:45 AM
Me I think MM and the High Road tend to be a big fork in the road. I recall their adds where they said they where a K 98 made on german tooling. How odd that 48 and 98 parts wont mix and swap. I think they quit making the things in the late 50s when they went to the later version of the 48.

Ker-splat
May 31, 2008, 04:31 PM
I personally have had business dealings with Don Mitchell and Mitchell Arms. My company was a vendor to Mitchell Arms before the gov-mint shut him down.

After he went out of business, I had a personal visit at night from the BATF about Mitchell Arms. Let's say... things aren't always what they seem.

Some of you on this thread are very very smart...other are extremely naive.

c5matt
May 31, 2008, 06:52 PM
ker-spat....that's a pretty disturbing set of events....people like that give all of us that love firearms a blackeye....thanks for the heads-up!!

LeibstandarteAdH
June 1, 2008, 02:07 AM
I dont know if you could say that MM could sell me a pound of gold for a dollar and id complain about it but...
In my latest yet shotgun news they are trying to sell me a "spoils of WWII" "hitlers orriginal K98K mauser" that has a bolt that is polished. Im no expert on mausers but i do know they germans never made a single K98K durring the war that the bolt wasn't blued like the rest of the rifle. So you tell me who is full of it.

Geno
June 11, 2008, 08:38 AM
MM, as with any company, will push the limits to push its product. That acknowledged, I do believe that they offer a reasonable product at a reasonable price. The M48s seem to have excellent metal to metal fit, excellent metal to wood fit, and the bores that I have seen have all been excellent as well.

I see more quality variance in the MM K98s. My own MM K98 is a nice example of what can be had from MM. Is the price too high at $499.00? That is debatable. What the buyer is willing to pay, rather sets or sustains the price. My own K98 has all of the proper markings, is tightly made, and I feel I got a good deal. That said, when I buy one of these rifles, as when I buy an other Mil Surp, I understand that I will likely get a Frankenrifle, meaning parts taken from potentially a dozen or more other rifles, but likely at least with authentic parts.

Is MM deceptive? No, read between the lines with all companies. Am I pleased with my own MM products (an M48 and a K98)? Yes, with both. Were they worth the money? I feel I got my money's worth.

dmftoy1
June 11, 2008, 06:25 PM
Is MM deceptive? No, read between the lines with all companies. Am I pleased with my own MM products (an M48 and a K98)? Yes, with both. Were they worth the money? I feel I got my money's worth.


I'm glad you're happy with your rifle(s) as that's the most important thing . .but to say that MM is not any more deceptive than other firearms companies is really stretching it a bit. When I bought my M1A recently from Springfield they didn't try to tell me that it was an M14. When I bought a Springfield "GI Spec" they didn't try to tell me it was a special version of the WWII Remington Rand. (which would be equivalent to the M48 ad's from MM)

Just my .02.

Regards,
Dave

CZguy
June 11, 2008, 07:11 PM
I'm happy that Doc2005 feels he got a good deal, but I have to agree with dmftoy1 that the majority of us feel that MM stretches the truth in their adds, and charges considerably more for the same rifle than anyone else.

If you don't think I summed up the thread pretty well...............take a little time and go through this thread and total up those for MM as opposed.

MythBuster
June 11, 2008, 09:40 PM
A guy came into our local gun shop with one of these still "new in the box".He just bought it for about $400

The shop owner reached behind the counter and produced a M-48 that looked just as nice as the MM rifle.

He offered to sell it for $175.:eek:

The $175 rifle could have been switched with the MM rifle and the owner would have to look very closely to know the difference.

The guy was no longer so happy about his "new" Mauser.

To makes matters worse about $130 cash would buy the nice Mauser the dealer had.

Aguila Blanca
June 12, 2008, 01:53 AM
Is MM deceptive? No, read between the lines with all companies. Am I pleased with my own MM products (an M48 and a K98)? Yes, with both. Were they worth the money? I feel I got my money's worth.
Read between the lines?

Go back to the first page of this thread and read the post in which someone quoted from Mitchell's ad for the M48. The ad in which they claimed the M48 is a 98K.

I have one of each. They ain't the same. The M48 isn't even a full-length '98 Mauser action, it's an "intermediate" (I think that's the term) length action.

Basically, you're paying them about $250 to clean of the cosmoline and print up a worthless "certificate of authenticity" to hang on the wall.

Here it is. It was quoted by Glenn Bartley:

A “NEW” Mauser, and it’s over 50 years old!

A genuine Mauser 98K, the Model M48 is the Strongest and Best of the original bolt-action Rifles. Made on German Tooling set up in formerly occupied Serbia. Military-New condition with clean, Bright Bores, and Teakwood stocks, with an American Owner’s Manual covering history, operation, and safety. “Military-New” means it is ready for you; cleaned and tested to assure safety and your satisfaction. Maintained Combat-Ready (and it still is) for over 50 years, now it can be yours. Original Factory matching serial numbers on all rifle parts. Preserved by an accident of history, supply is limited. All original accessories as issued at the time and shown here are sold separately. This Mauser is ideal for collecting, target shooting, hunting, or customizing.

We guarantee it!

Some people may be getting the mistaken impression that these rifles were manufactured by Germans during the occupation. That is not the case. These rifles were manufactured with German technology in Serbia after the people had driven the Germans out of Yugoslavia.

This is an important distinction, because that is one of the reasons why the Model 48 is recognized as a superior example of the K98 type military rifle. The factory in Serbia was not bombed, like the German factories during the war. The factory in Serbia had a good supply of raw materials. And the Model 48 was produced by free people, instead of forced labor. All of which resulted in a superior rifle in its own right, as well as an interesting piece of history.

Ash
June 12, 2008, 06:50 AM
And of course, the reason why folks were getting confused about these made by the Germans is that MM boldly proclaimed they were made in 1943 during German occupation by the German occupiers! That story later changed, but it was a clear statement at the time.

Ash

Geno
June 12, 2008, 08:57 AM
Apparently I need to read when I awake, or at least not near-brain-dead. For me, because I know solidly what is, and what is not a Mauser and a K98, I wasn't overly concerned. The differences stood out clearly to me. A WWII rifle could not be built in 1948. But, as I re-read it, and kept in mind, what if it were someone who did not know of the Mauser, would it be clear? No. As I re-read, then the part that really (eventually) smacked me in the face was their advertisement, "...genuine Mauser 98K, the Model M48...":

A “NEW” Mauser, and it’s over 50 years old! A genuine Mauser 98K, the Model M48 is the Strongest and Best of the original bolt-action Rifles. Made on German Tooling set up in formerly occupied Serbia. Military-New condition with clean, Bright Bores, and Teakwood stocks, with an American Owner’s Manual covering history, operation, and safety. “Military-New” means it is ready for you; cleaned and tested to assure safety and your satisfaction. Maintained Combat-Ready (and it still is) for over 50 years, now it can be yours. Original Factory matching serial numbers on all rifle parts. Preserved by an accident of history, supply is limited. All original accessories as issued at the time and shown here are sold separately. This Mauser is ideal for collecting, target shooting, hunting, or customizing.

We guarantee it!

Some people may be getting the mistaken impression that these rifles were manufactured by Germans during the occupation. That is not the case. These rifles were manufactured with German technology in Serbia after the people had driven the Germans out of Yugoslavia.
This is an important distinction, because that is one of the reasons why the Model 48 is recognized as a superior example of the K98 type military rifle. The factory in Serbia was not bombed, like the German factories during the war. The factory in Serbia had a good supply of raw materials. And the Model 48 was produced by free people, instead of forced labor. All of which resulted in a superior rifle in its own right, as well as an interesting piece of history.

Thank-you for the re-direct folks! In closing, I do still feel that I got good rifles, at good prices, but yes MM needs to take efforts at full clarity.

Doc2005

xsquidgator
June 12, 2008, 09:32 AM
Thank-you for the re-direct folks! In closing, I do still feel that I got good rifles, at good prices, but yes MM needs to take efforts at full clarity.

Doc2005

Er, I would beg to differ slightly. I would say "ok rifles made to look pretty, at high prices". My dad gave me a Mitchell's Mauser K98 and going by the ads I've seen in the American Legion magazine, he paid $400 or $500 plus FFL transfer for it. After I later got a C&R license, I realized one could get a real K98 for about $230 plus the $30 for the C&R license. Yugo M48 dealer prices are more in the $130 range. I like my Mitchell's K98, and shoot it fairly often, and I'm glad for the gift. BUT, knowing what I know now, if I knew my dad was about to buy me one for a gift, I'd do it differently and get a lot more gun or ammo for the $.

I think buying a Mitchell's Mauser is like buying a stereo from a furniture rental place. Sure you can get an ok stereo but you'll pay through the nose for it.

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