Is the 16 gauge going extinct?

[Big Boomer]

I have an old Browning Belgium Sweet 16 that is very nice, but costs a king's ransom to shoot!

Some of my family also has 16's and have stopped shooting them because of the cost of the ammo. I know there are still quite a few out there but I rarely see a shotgun chambered in this anymore.

I know the 12 is better for most purposes, the rounds are cheaper, more selection, more firearms chambered in them. But why the loss? What happened to it? I like it better than my 20 gauge.

Are we likely to see ammo dry up on this in say the next 10 years?

[TAB]

I'm a 16 ga nut... I've been reloading since hs, only way I could aford to shoot it.

[alpha43au]

I have picked up old (and I mean old) Eley ammo from a gun show or two.
Otherwise have you tried RIO ammo for the 16 ?

[ArmedBear]

But why the loss? What happened to it?

Modern manufacturing and metallurgy rendered it unnecessary.

Beretta 12 Gauge O/U, all field models steel receiver, about 7 lb. or a bit less.
Franchi 12 Gauge O/U, Renaissance alloy receiver, 6.3 lb.
Browning 12 Gauge O/U, Citori Superlight Feather alloy receiver, 6.4 lb.
Ithaca 37 12 Gauge Pump Ultralight alloy receiver 6.4 lb.
Remington 870 Wingmaster LC 12 Gauge Pump steel receiver just over 7 lb.
...the list goes on and even modern semiautos weigh in at near 7 lb., sometimes lower...

You don't need to use an oddball bore to get something that "carries like a 20, shoots like a 12", when the 16 never really quite did either one. That slogan came from an era where a 12 Gauge was an 8 lb. beast, maybe bigger, and sluggish. A few guns like that remain, but one needn't buy them. If you want a lighter gun that shoots like a 12, you can get a 12. If you want a quick little upland gun, the 20 Gauge guns and the ammo are better than ever, with incredible variety in both, and a gun for every preference.

It will probably hang around forever for those neat old guns, but it's not "coming back". Why would it?

[PJR]

The 16 gauge will probably never be extinct. There are enough shooters out there using it and ammo while hard to find won't dry up entirely.

I agree with Armed Bear but it's a viewpoint not expressed often around the 16 gauge fans. They are very defensive, almost to the point of fisticuffs, about their pet gauge. If you have one, use it and love it. If the used sxs of your dreams comes into view don't reject it because it's a 16. But in a new gun it's probably the last gauge I would consider.

[foghornl]

I have been hearing of the 16-Ga going extinct since 1970 or so.

[Okiecruffler]

I think of it rather as the gauge that just won't die. Folks have been writing that obituary for a long time. I think there will always be goofy folks like me who keep one around and use it for nostalgic reasons. And then there are those Sweet 16's out there that are as about as fine a gun as has ever been made (can't believe I'd say that about something handicapped with just one barrel). Someone has to keep them fed.

[sagebrushjim]

As the Proud owner of 3 16ga guns I hope it never dries up... Best source I have found for ammo is Bass Pro Shops...

[Dave McCracken]

Lots of really nice 16s out there. Few get used for heavy clays activity, most are hunting guns.

I've no 16s here and doubt I'll get any. If I do, I'll probably start reloading for the gauge.

[Rem-brent-browning]

I began my shooting with my dad's Remington Model 11 16 bore, in 1962. I have owned and shot 16 bore guns in every action type made. In my opinion, it is the most versatile bore size for all shotgun disciplines with the exception of waterfowling.That being said, I will also admit that the 12 and 20 bores have more loadings available. The majority of shooters will do well with either a 12 or a 20 bore. I do own and shoot them as well; however, not as much as my 16.

With judicious shopping ,you can find factory shells from Remington, Federal, Winchester, B&P, Fiocchi, etc. that is affordable and pattern well in most 16's. My last purchase was Remington game loads in 1 oz for $4.99 a box one month ago- I got 3 flats. You can also reload, which is safe and economical- although not as economical as it was 30 years ago!;)

At this time, many of the gun manufacturers are currently offering 16 bore guns. Browning, Remington, Connecticut Shotgun Manufacturing, Rizzini, Huglu, Stoger, Baikil, Zabala, Fausti, and a host of other high end double gun manufacturers offer 16 bore guns. There is more interest in 16 bore guns in the used gun market at this time than in the past 40 years.

The 16 bore is a niche bore- like the 28 and .410. It will never be extinct.It offers many advantages to the knowledgeable shotgunner, and is currently enjoying much deserved publicity in many of the shooting publications.

You might want to visit the 16GA.com website for more information. It is a good source for lively conversation and a good overview about the history of this unique bore.

[ACP230]

It will not be becoming extinct around here.

I have my old Winchester Model 12 in 16. My dad gave it to me for a high school graduation present. I hunted grouse with it most of grouse season last year and it worked as good as ever.

Also have a Marlin Model 90 in 16. Neat old over and under.

My brother left his Savage 311 in 16 here when he moved out to the gunless Pacific. If I make it to a cowboy action shoot this summer that is the shotgun I'll "campaign" with.

I am a bit short on 16 gauge shells at the moment but they should be on sale somewhere before the next bird season.

[Seafarer12]

I don't see them totally dieing out but there isn't much use for them anymore. I will admit I am not a 16 fan. I also don't see much use in a .410. I feel a 12 or a 20 will do just about anything needed. I am suprised there aren't more odd ball shotgun rounds coming out with all the odd ball rifle/ pistol rounds coming out.

[TexasRifleman]

16 is all I use, and I still see lots of them for sale in stores around here so I'm not worried.

It's a bit harder to find and the loadings are not quite as varied so I just stock up when I find it.

[MCgunner]

Walmart has 16 and even 28 here and it ain't all THAT much higher than 12 and 20, a little. It ain't going extinct, but it's not been really popular since I was little, been on a steady decline. But, I think that's leveled out. When I was a kid, 28s were few and far between, but I knew a guy that had one. They never died out, either, quite, and have come back to a little more popularity since. I hear they make fine guns for lawyer hunting, if nothing else (Dick Cheney reference).

Really ain't much needs doing that can't be done with a 12 or 20, so I guess that's the reason for the decline. America has settled on the 12 and the 20. Steel shot brought the 10 out of oblivion to a degree. There's really nothing, though, that a 16 can do that the 12 can't do better. That right there is the problem. Any difference in the guns is nuance INHO. Oh, I have a soft spot for the gauge as I hunted with an Ithaca 16 featherweight when I was a kid and still have the old single shot 16 my uncle gave me, but I mean, all my hunting now days is done with 12s and a 20. I don't feel the burning desire for anything else just for the sake of being different and I reckon most other hunters/shooters agree with me.

[BigG]

The 16 gauge has been going out of style longer than I've been shooting. Shells were scarce back in the late 1960s and I don't think they are any more prevalent today.

When I was in Germany I learned the 16 was considered the standard gauge there. 16 balls per oz, 1 oz shot, etc. Most of those old WWII drillings are 16 ga, rather than 12.

Here in USA when I started shooting c. 1968, you had basically a choice between 12 and 20. You have always been able to buy a .410, too, but that was mainly a novelty.

The shells usually cost more than 12 bore which means I'll stick with 12 because of price and availability. YMMV

[TrapperReady]

But in a new gun it's probably the last gauge I would consider.


This is absolutely true. I own and hunt with several 16ga shotguns. However, I bought them used and got them "just because". If I was being practical, it probably wouldn't even make the list.

Although I still like the idea of a 16x16x30-30 drilling. ;):D

[mswestfall]

I see a lot of value in the 16 gauge as a collectors item.

They tend to increase in value more than SOME of the other gauges because there were fewer of them made.

Historically, Drillings were/are 16 gauge. That alone will keep a small segment of the market going.

At least half of my Midwestern hunting friends have and use a 16 gauge.

I hope the gauge stays around. It's a romantic part of our history. <= go ahead and make fun of that comment....

[mswestfall]

Although I still like the idea of a 16x16x30-30 drilling.

Ditto that TrapperReady

[Bud Tugly]

Back in the 1960's most of my hunting buddies and I could only afford one gun. The choice of loads was more limited than today, at least at the local sporting goods store, and lead was still legal for waterfowl.

The gauge you owned mostly reflected your primary interest. You owned a 12 if you mostly hunted ducks and geese and a 20 if you were mainly into grouse and rabbits. The 16 was the perfect compromise if you wanted to do both. Carry a 16 with some 2's, 4's, 6's, and 7 1/2's in your pockets and you were ready for anything.

These days more folks can afford more than 1 gun. Far more loadings are available so gauges overlap more than they used to. The compromise niche that the 16 used to fill has pretty much disappeared.

IMO that's why it's lost popularity as a new gun, but will always be remembered by us old-timers.

[RNB65]

The 16 Ga. has been going extinct for a half century now and I suspect it will continue going extinct for at least another half century or two.

:)

[TCB in TN]

I have had and still have a couple of 16's I have always loved them, growing up they were lighter and easier to carry than those huge ole 12's and they had a bit better range than the 20. In fact I just bought an old Savage sweet 16 copy that shoots like a dream.

[axeman_g]

16g is my favorite because for some reason I trust it. I shoot 12s as well, but they are not as pleasant to shoot as a nice 16g. I dont think 16g is going extinct, but like wild quail are getting harder to find.

I look at shoping for 16g shells as an extension of the hunting season.

[buck460XVR]

I have an old Fox SxS 16 that was the first gun my Grandpa bought when he returned home from France after WWI. It's the gun I learned to shoot on and it still is my most accurate scattergun. Almost gave up on findin' shells years ago, but surprisingly around here they're gettin' as common as most other shells. Wally World, Gander Mountain and even the mom and pop bait shop in town has 'em and they're about the same price as 12's or 20's.

Long live the sweet sixteen....................

[Jaenak]

I'd have to say yes. I don't know of anyone that chambers a gun for it anymore and I don't know of anyone that makes ammo for it anymore. I've been purposely avoiding the 16 guage because I completely expect it to go extinct in the next decade.

[marksman13]

Jaenak, look around. Wihchester is pumping out 16 guage ammo every day. If I can get it at Wally World, it is not in any danger of extinction any time soon.

[TAB]

Lots of people still make 16s. Most of them are doubles... I know remington made an 1100 in 16 ga a couple years back( I bought one) they also still produce lots of 16 ga shells.

[RNB65]

Wihchester is pumping out 16 guage ammo every day.

Yep, I have no trouble finding 16ga shells. I just don't have anything to shoot them with. I'm still looking for a decent 16ga scattergun that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
.

[RNB65]

Lots of people still make 16s.

The problem is that most 16's made these days are made using 12ga frames and barrels. The result is a gun that's as heavy and bulky as a 12ga and you lose all the benefits of the 16ga.
.

[marksman13]

I agree RNB65, most of today's 16s are bulky and heavy. My grandfather left me a Remington Sportman's 58 and that shotgun is a dream to shoot. It is always a favorite at the skeet range.

[AndyC]

FYI - there's a website and forum for the 16 Gauge Society (http://www.16ga.com/) - specifically for 16ga enthusiasts who get together for shoots from time to time. Very friendly folk who've invited me out on occasion (I'm sure it's just the accent that gets them to invite me).

[ArmedBear]

My grandfather left me a Remington Sportman's 58 and that shotgun is a dream to shoot. It is always a favorite at the skeet range.

No doubt it is, and with sentimental value as a major plus! Classic guns have intrinsic value, and you use whatever ammo works in them; it's the gun you're really interested in.:)

The thing is, when you see the real 16 Gauge advocates, it seems they're comparing one 50-year-old gun to another 50-year-old gun.

Swing a new 391 Urika 12 Gauge, and it'll feel as good as that old Sportsman 58 in 16. Sure, that old Remington feels a lot better than the old 12 Gauge Remington, but like I wrote above, that's because the old 12 Gauge weighed 8 lb. or more. Some of those old ribbed barrels are sluggish, to boot, though the plain barrels can be fine.

I'll be the first to say that the current Ruger Red Label and Browning Citori Lightning in 12 both are way overweight as field guns, and they don't feel so great, at least to me. However, there are many competitors out there that aren't. Swing a 686 White Onyx field gun in 12; it feels better than the old 16s. Try a newer ultralight from Browning, Beretta, Franchi, Guerini.

This whole canard about the 16 offering something to "knowledgable shotgunners" is really false. A knowledgable shotgunner, to me, would be someone who knows what a good modern gun feels like, someone whose prejudices are not lost in the 1950s. It would also be someone who knows that 1 oz. loads pattern very well from a 12 and acceptably in a modern 20 if you need to stretch the gun's capabilities a bit.

The way I see it, there are two main reasons to shoot 16's:

1. An identity. A web site for people who are into doing something that makes them think they're different. A way to differentiate oneself, in his own mind, from the drunk trailer trash out on opening day with their 12 Gauges.

2. A way to shoot some really neat old guns, built before they figured out how to make a 12 Gauge that felt good to shoot, that was good for something other than goose and trap. For example, I'm not so fond of some old autos in 12, but in 16...

#2 makes sense to me. I think you can tell what I think of #1.

Now none of this suggests that there's anything wrong with the 16. I'm sure 14 and 18 would work well, too. It's just that they're hard to find. The questions are, "Is it worth the trouble and expense of buying a new 16 Gauge? Does it REALLY do something that a modern 12 Gauge gun -- not something from the '50s, but a modern one -- doesn't do as well? Can you really tell the difference, when every gun design is different, and you can choose to buy whichever one you want?"

[marksman13]

Armedbear, first of all, I see your point. The 16 gauge in most of today's configurations is rather pointless, but what if modern manufacturers would build a new shotgun around the 16 gauge. If built around the 16 gauge from the ground up the gun would most likely swing and carry better than a comparable 12 gauge. Will a major manufacturer do that? Hell no. there isn't enough market for it.

I for one do like the fact that I shoot a shotgun gauge that not everyone uses. I don't consider my 16 gauge superior to everyone else's choice of 12 and 20 gauge, I just like being different. I've also been known to deer hunt with an AR-15, just because there aren't many people in my area who use them.

Do I think the 16 gauge is the most versatile, amazing chambering for a shotgun? Nope, I think that distinction belongs to the 12 gauge. It is hard to beat the 16 gauge's compromise between light recoil and energy delivered on target though. Not to mention the Sportsman's 58's light weight and trim lines.

Do I think the 16 gauge is going to make a huge comeback? Nah. the 12 gauge and 20 gauge have solidified their place in the market and will likely never let them go. Do I think the 16 gauge will ever become extinct, no way. There are too many people like me who like having something different than the masses and enjoy shooting those old shotguns.

[TrapperReady]

AB - I agree with most of what you say above; however, I think one statement needs a little clarification.


This whole canard about the 16 offering something to "knowledgable shotgunners" is really false.


I don't think it's false at all*. What I take from that idea is that a "knowledgable shotgunner" wouldn't automatically write off a 16ga as either not being "good enough" or "you can't find ammo for it". I think a lot of folks are stuck in the 12ga or 20ga mode and will automatically pass up 16ga guns. Those who know about the 16ga, both strengths and weaknesses, wouldn't be so quick to pass one up.

* Unless someone is trying to argue that the 16ga is superior to the 12ga.

[MCgunner]

The steel shot laws did the 16 no favors, either. Sort of a nail in the coffin effect.

[PJR]

This whole canard about the 16 offering something to "knowledgable shotgunners" is really false.
Now those are fightin' words.

I agree completely and will fight on your side. :)

[Halwg]

I started hunting with an H&R 16 ga. single shot. I bought my first shotgun when I was 13, it's a Stevens M-77F in 16 ga. I still have the gun, and took it out grouse hunting 2 weekends ago. I found ammo at Wally-World for $5.00 a box for game load 7 1/2 shot, which I use for grouse. They had high brass 4, 6, and 7 1/2 for $10.00. I didn't think it was too bad, actually.

I still had 2 boxes of high brass #6 Winchesters that I bought at the old Grants store. The price sticker on the box was $2.37. I probably bought them in the late 70's. I shot them and they are still fine.

Browning makes their BPS in 16 ga. I looked at one at Cabelas this past fall. It's built on a 20 ga frame, so it light like my old Stevens. I actually thought about buying one to compliment my 12 ga Ithaca and 20 ga Remington Model 17. Something from each era. Maybe if I "find" $550 that's what I'll do with it.

[MASTEROFMALICE]

I have Sportsman 58 in 16 as well. I'll say this, it feels like it weighs half of what my Mossberg 9200 does.

Of course my dad has an Antonio Zoli 20 o/u and for feel that thing smokes them both.

[ArmedBear]

What I take from that idea is that a "knowledgable shotgunner" wouldn't automatically write off a 16ga as either not being "good enough" or "you can't find ammo for it".

As I wrote, I wasn't suggesting it doesn't work, or that there's anything inherently wrong with it.:)

But while I can find ammo for it, the selection of components to build a great shell myself, and the selection of types of commercial ammo (shot, velocity, etc.) are both very limited compared to every other common bore. Prices are quite high, as well. Sure, a 13 Gauge is much, much harder to load for, but while it did exist, it hasn't been produced for a long, long time.

Browning makes their BPS in 16 ga. I looked at one at Cabelas this past fall. It's built on a 20 ga frame, so it light like my old Stevens.

It weighs about as much as a Wingmaster LC in 12 Gauge, and a bit more than a Beretta 686 O/U in 12. If I really HAD to have a BPS, I'd want the 16 -- and the straight-grip version seems like a helluva pheasant gun. But again, the BPS is a too-heavy gun to start with; bummer Browning can't make a better copy of the Ithaca than they do.

I think the thing to recognize is that bore doesn't matter all that much; a shotgun is not a rifle. If you hit a bird with 4 pellets of #7.5 shot, it doesn't matter one bit whether those pellets came from a 10 Gauge or a 28. What matters is how the shotgun feels when you use it, and, to a lesser extent, recoil. It's quite true that a lot of old or old-style guns like the BPS feel a lot better in 16 than in 12.

Also, I feel like 12 is overkill for bird hunting. I know that it really doesn't matter, but it just feels like it.:) I do understand why aesthetics would also drive someone to want the 16. I just hope that nobody out there is trying to talk some young newbie into getting a 16; I think that would be a disservice.

And between the incredible availability of 12 Gauge shells and components, and the limited availability of same in 16, and modern manufacturing that can make 12 Gauge guns much sleeker and better-handling without trashing durability, the 16 is not poised for a comeback except to facilitate using those neat old guns that are coming out of closets more and more.

[TrapperReady]

the 16 is not poised for a comeback except to facilitate using those neat old guns that are coming out of closets more and more.


Quite right. Lots and lots of people who grew up in the '50s and '60s cut their teeth on the 16ga. The guns from that era do handle and balance nicely and the ammo isn't to hard to find. Any of the major sporting goods stores in our area carry a variety of 16ga ammo, which is slightly more expensive than 12ga or 20ga, but far less expensive (for most loadings) than 28ga or .410.

As I've said before, I wouldn't recommend a 16ga for shooting clay targets. As a hunting gun, they rock.

With regards to availability of different types of ammo... there's probably too much variety in a lot of cases. Not to sound curmudgeonly, but sometimes it's like buying toothpaste. When I was growing up, you could get Crest and Colgate. Now, there is a flippin' wall full of choices. None of which works much/any better than good old-school minty-chalk flavored stuff. Same with ammo. Options are good, but dang... what can't I do with 1 oz of #7.5 lead at 1250fps?

[ArmedBear]

Maybe something exotic like duck hunting?:)

Hunt on smaller plots of private land where #8 shot is the max? Clean kill of wild pheasant or rabbit at a decent range? Hunt turkey?

[marksman13]

A 16 gauge will work in all of the circumstances you mentioned, Armedbear. Is it the best choice for all of those? Nope, but it will work effetively. The 16 gauge is a niche gauge. I have a use for it. It appears that you don't.

[MCgunner]

Yeah, someone point me to a decent steel shot offering in 16. Might be one out there, never seen one in any stores. My old 16 is full choked anyway, most are fixed and I doubt many were authorized for steel.

Exotic, eh? LOL!

[ArmedBear]

A 16 gauge will work in all of the circumstances you mentioned, Armedbear.

Huh?

The question was: "Options are good, but dang... what can't I do with 1 oz of #7.5 lead at 1250fps?"

[BigG]

I remember when I was 16, in the late 60s, you could buy a Browning Automatic 5 in 12 16 or 20 ga and each was a perfect reduction from the larger size of about 2/3 scale. They were among the most beautiful pieces of equipment I had ever seen. I chose the 12, BTW, because even in those days the handwriting was on the wall. Stores were stocking shells in 12 and 20 ga and a few boxes of 16, just in case.

A couple years ago (maybe 5) Browning put out a run of Superposed in 16 ga and I thought they had lost their minds. Apparently collectors had requested them enough to justify the run.

:what:

[ArmedBear]

A couple years ago (maybe 5) Browning put out a run of Superposed in 16 ga and I thought they had lost their minds. Apparently collectors had requested them enough to justify the run.

Hey, how much is a new Superposed, anyway?

[Loyalist Dave]

The thing is, when you see the real 16 Gauge advocates, it seems they're comparing one 50-year-old gun to another 50-year-old gun....

...Swing a new 391 Urika 12 Gauge, and it'll feel as good as that old Sportsman 58 in 16....
...Swing a 686 White Onyx field gun in 12; it feels better than the old 16s. Try a newer ultralight from Browning, Beretta, Franchi, Guerini...

...This whole canard about the 16 offering something to "knowledgable shotgunners" is really false. A knowledgable shotgunner, to me, would be someone who knows what a good modern gun feels like, someone whose prejudices are not lost in the 1950s. It would also be someone who knows that 1 oz. loads pattern very well from a 12 and acceptably in a modern 20 if you need to stretch the gun's capabilities a bit...
...A way to shoot some really neat old guns, built before they figured out how to make a 12 Gauge that felt good to shoot, that was good for something other than goose and trap.

Wow that's alot to chew upon. I'll bite too. Let's talk brand new, off the shelf shotguns. If one shoots hunt-tests, one needs a breech loader, either O/U or SxS. (I prefer the SxS, but that's me) The semi-autos you mentioned above wont work. That leaves the Beretta O/U at a cost of $1400 - $1750, the Franchi Renaissance at $1500 - $1900, the Browning Citori from $1800-$2900, and my 16 gauge Huglu at...., $1000 - $1200 (mine was $800 two years ago).

A 12 patterns 1 oz very well, and a 20 patterns 1 oz acceptably, I agree, but nobody that I have found says they do so as well as the 16 gauge. It might not matter to the bird, clay or game, but it does matter to some shooters. I wasn't born until 1963, (Started shooting shotguns in 1975 - Rem 1100 20 ga.); didn't shoot a 16 until 2006, and my dad got his 16 gauge after me, so my predjudices aren't set in the 1950's. I prefer my 16 to my dad's Belgian made Browning O/U, skeet, in 12, so I am comparing a new 16 to "a 12 after they learned how to make a 12 for something other than geese or trap". I also agree that a gas powered semi-auto feels better than the Browning Sweet 16, but I can't use either.

So comparing modern guns to modern guns..., I can use my Huglu 16 SxS (or an O/U from the same company) in my shooting activities, while the above semi-autos are prohibited, it cost me from $600 - $1000 less than the guns you mentioned that were my other options, shells from Estate cost me 70 cents more per box than 12 ga from the same company, I got the straight (no pistol grip) stock that I prefer at no extra charge. Oh, almost forgot, I get better results at the table using my 16 than I did with a light 12 on quail or dove, but that's subjective on my part.

I don't think any of this is a canard in any way.

LD

[ArmedBear]

If one shoots hunt-tests, one needs a breech loader, either O/U or SxS. (I prefer the SxS, but that's me) The semi-autos you mentioned above wont work.

Well, yeah. That's one reason I'm not interested in buying another semiauto, actually. I just thought it wouldn't be relevant to many people, if the list only included real shotguns.:D

A 12 patterns 1 oz very well, and a 20 patterns 1 oz acceptably, I agree, but nobody that I have found says they do so as well as the 16 gauge.

Horsepuckey. Olympic trap shooters have experimented extensively with lighter 12 Gauge loads over the years, and undersquare loads tend to pattern best, especially as you bump up velocity. It's been thoroughly tested. There's no reason to believe that 1 oz. patterns as well in a 16 as in a 12, actually -- though the difference doesn't matter in the real world.

I prefer my 16 to my dad's Belgian made Browning O/U, skeet, in 12, so I am comparing a new 16 to "a 12 after they learned how to make a 12 for something other than geese or trap".

Superposed? Hell, that's one of the heaviest beasts ever made, and the design dates to the late 1920s. I happen to like them for some things, but that's no modern shotgun by any stretch of the imagination (and furthermore, I don't at all like how the 12's balance with barrels under 30"). But comparing the SxS to an ancient beast of an O/U is apples and oranges, as I said in my posts above. It's not the bore that makes the greater difference here.

I can use my Huglu 16 SxS (or an O/U from the same company) in my shooting activities, while the above semi-autos are prohibited, it cost me from $600 - $1000 less than the guns you mentioned that were my other options

That's one way to look at it. Depends on what one thinks of Turkish shotguns. For cost comparison, it would make more sense to compare a Huglu 16 with a Huglu 12, not with a Beretta O/U. They are available in 12 Gauge, right, which means a 12 still would have a lower OAC. Not that you should have gotten a 12; it just means that you really still are paying extra to have the 16.

What birds are you shooting for hunt tests? What shot size are you using in your neck of the woods?

(I'm gunning for a utility test in a few weeks, and while my 20 with small birdshot worked fine on Saturday when we used bobwhite, I'm trying to decide what to use for pheasant and chukar. I think I have to use #7.5, which seems to be insufficient for pheasant, no matter what bore it comes from.)

[marksman13]

Armedbear, that load would work for all but the ducks. Hell, it would work then, but it would be illegal. Get close enough to the turkeys and you can kill them with a full choked .410 all day. Is it the best option? Nope, but a 16 gauge with 7 1/2s will kill a turkey.

On the rabbits, I hunt them every year with a 16 gauge and 7 1/2s and routinely kill rabbits at 30 yards. I don't think I have ever had a shot at a rabbit more than 30 yards away. Not running dogs anyway.

And I don't think I have ever been on a piece of private land that restricted hunters to #8 shot. I don't think I have ever hunted anything except ducks and geese that restricted shot sizes. Most of the time here it is public land that restricts shot size, and it's usually just a ban on anything larger than #2 or BBs.

[ArmedBear]

There are still people who quietly kill ducks with .410s and lead shot, here and there, or so I'm told.:) And I'm not one of them.

Regardless, I won't be shooting #7.5 lead at ducks on public land, from any shotgun. And I've been dissatisfied with the performance of small birdshot on rabbits; I'm using #6 now for a clean, humane kill. Our rabbits are skittish and fast, and shots can be fairly long.

I "get" that you can do a lot with #7.5; that's what most of my ammo and shot bags have in them. I really do like having a variety of loads available, though.:)

[BigG]

Hey, how much is a new Superposed, anyway?

Ooops! I guess I must be getting senile. I googled it and no 16 ga Superposed have been made except for a prototype kept by the factory. The 16s I saw must have been model 525 one of which was for sale for a mere $1,325.

I thought they were Superposed because the guy had racks of gorgeous vintage superposeds.

:eek:

[TrapperReady]

AB - My comment about "what can't I do with 1 oz of #7.5 lead at 1250fps" was really intended for clays and general hunting when lead is legal. When shopping for 12ga loads, there are 7/8oz, 1oz, 1 1/8oz, 1 1/4oz, 1 3/8oz, 1 1/2oz and 1 5/8oz loads in velocities from sub-sonic to nearly 1500fps. Game loads, target loads, premium target loads, valu-pak loads, hi-brass, low-brass, Cheddite hulls, paper hulls, and so on. Choice is nice. But is it necessary?

One ounce of #7.5 lead at 1250 fps will kill any clay target, along with dove, grouse, pheasant (pen-raised or wild within 30 yards), chukar, etc... Add in an ounce of #5 lead at the same veolicty and you can kill wild pheasants at long range and turkeys.

By adding a slightly heavier load of non-toxic #2 and you can kill ducks and geese over decoys quite easily.

Add a 7/8oz slug and you can kill deer.

As far as availability, I can go to any of three or four stores within a 15 minute drive and buy any of these shells in 16ga. I won't have the dizzying number of choices that there are in 12ga, but I can do anything with the 16ga. The cost will be slightly higher than 12ga, probably more in line with 20ga, but not as much as 28ga or .410.

[PJR]

What this discussion comes down to is whether you are buying the gun or the gauge. To buy the gauge if the same gun is available in 12 gauge and especially if it's on the same sized frame makes no sense whatsoever.

But to buy a gun in 16 gauge if it's unique does have an appeal particularly if it's an older or out of production gun . In that case it makes sense to accept the poorer selection of shells and face the not insumountable challenges of reloading. For example, if asked to choose between a 2.5" 12 gauge sxs and a 2-3/4" 16 gauge there is no doubt I'd take the 16.

Sometimes the enthusiasm of the 16 gauge cult can transcend common sense. On a couple of other sites, I read way too many of them thundering about the "Queen of the Uplands" and often recommending a 16 gauge to a beginning upland shooter. I think that's a serious disservice to a new hunter who would be better off with a light 12 or 20.

I an not entirely a 16 gauge heretic. When I ordered a custom gun I opted for a 16 gauge but in frame only. The barrels are 2-3/4" 12 gauge. It's the best of both worlds. Built on a round action at 6-1/2 lbs. it's so slender and light that it is often mistaken for a 20 gauge and it carries like one too.

But it hits like a 12 because it is one. :cool:

[41magsnub]

Trapper, lucky you. Around here it is a big deal if a sporting goods store has 16ga shells at all, much less any particular type.

[TrapperReady]

But to buy a gun in 16 gauge if it's unique does have an appeal particularly if it's an older or out of production gun . In that case it makes sense to accept the poorer selection of shells and face the not insumountable challenges of reloading. For example, if asked to choose between a 2.5" 12 gauge sxs and a 2-3/4" 16 gauge there is no doubt I'd take the 16.


PJR - I'm obviously a slow learner, since I've got two short-chambered 16ga guns. ;)

That said, I think you, AB and I are all on the same page. I wouldn't recommend a new 16ga, nor would I recommend one for a new shooter. However, I do really like some of the older 16ga guns and don't find the ammo "situation" to be nearly as bad as it's sometimes made out to be.

I like your comment about buying the gun vs. the gauge. Taken as a whole, the gauge is redundant. However, on an individual basis, there are some truly awesome 16ga guns. The Ithaca Model 37 I used to bag most of this season's pheasants is one of the best balanced and sweet shooting field guns I've ever handled. The Browning Sweet-Sixteen has a nearly cult-like following, for good reason.

Heck, most of the 16ga guns I've gotten were not specifically purchased because they were "unique", but because they offered good value. Similar shotguns in 12ga were more expensive, and 20ga was significantly more. Since I had other guns for clay crunching and was willing to put up with the ammo issue, I felt like I was getting more for my money.

By the way, with regards to the original poster's question... At least around here, it seems like there is more and more 16ga ammo available each year. Maybe some of those older guns really are getting out of the closets and barn rafters and getting shot. That's a good thing! :)

[ArmedBear]

Ooops! I guess I must be getting senile. I googled it and no 16 ga Superposed have been made except for a prototype kept by the factory. The 16s I saw must have been model 525 one of which was for sale for a mere $1,325.

$600 off retail doesn't sound like there's much demand. However, I'll have to say that I'd consider that as a hunting gun if I wanted a Browning O/U. If there's ever been a field gun that needs to go on a diet, it's the Citori in 12 Gauge. Good gun, but no thanks. Trim it down, and it becomes a much more desirable field gun. But did it have a scaled frame?

I can surely understand why someone would want a Sweet 16. What's not to love about a trim, sleek Auto-5 with a POW grip and a perfectly matched foreend?

However, Browning has ditched the 16 Gauge Citoris. This seems to indicate that sales of new guns in 16 are not very brisk.

And as TrapperReady wrote, I think we really are all on the same page here.:)

Trapper, lucky you. Around here it is a big deal if a sporting goods store has 16ga shells at all, much less any particular type.

That's been my experience, as well, though occasionally Wally World has some, usually one type only.

[PJR]

Heck, most of the 16ga guns I've gotten were not specifically purchased because they were "unique", but because they offered good value. Similar shotguns in 12ga were more expensive, and 20ga was significantly more.
Sometimes that happens but I've also seen it work the other way particularly in English guns where the 16s are more expensive. They didn't make that many compared to the 12. In continental guns meanwhile the 16 is more common and often lower priced.

I have no interest in a 16 gauge but that could change in an instant if I found a sxs in the configuration I prefer at a price I could afford. The fact the gun might be a 16 wouldn't deter me one bit.

I believe we are on the same page and this is a remarkably civil conversation on the subject compared to some others I've had elsewhere. :)

[TrapperReady]

this is a remarkably civil conversation on the subject compared to some others I've had elsewhere


Yep. Maybe we need to open up the "O/U vs. SxS" can of worms next. ;):evil:

[Loyalist Dave]

For cost comparison, it would make more sense to compare a Huglu 16 with a Huglu 12, not with a Beretta O/U. No I was comparing my purchase to the guns you recommended, and the price ranges that I listed included sale prices, not "suggested retail", for with the internet folks can shop around, and I didn't want to quote my local prices as universal. Actually, I spent less on the 16 than the Huglu 12's on the rack, as the feeling that a straight stock 16 gauge wouldn't seel made the shop owner lower his price.

You keep adding variables to the premis that advocates of the 16 gauge are lost in nostalgia,

Olympic trap shooters have experimented extensively with lighter 12 Gauge loads over the years, and undersquare loads tend to pattern best, especially as you bump up velocity. It's been thoroughly tested. There's no reason to believe that 1 oz. patterns as well in a 16 as in a 12.

That may be as far as experimenting goes, but are they reloading those shells, or are those specific factory shells for Olympic trap, or are they the cheapest out of the box? I could be very ignorant, but I think most shotgunners don't reload for any other reason than cost savings (so have no idea if they have an optimum pattern from their reloads), and don't use Olympic grade shells for targets or hunting. (Are there factory Olympic grade shells?) The idea among many 16 gauge advocates is that common, commercial 16 gauge shells with 1 oz. of shot, pattern better than common, commercial, 12 gauge shells with 1 oz. or common, commercial, 20 gauge shells with 7/8 oz. of shot. I don't claim that..., that's just the idea or the theory.

I agree with most of your posts on the subject, and you have a very valid point that many folks who choose a 16 gauge get an old one 'cause it's old. My dad got a Browning A-5 in 16 that was made before they called it the Sweet 16 , 'cause he thought it was cool.

It's more like Pizza (imho). That industry has found that the vast majority of consumers consider the best pizza to be the type they first enjoyed. Folks who choose Chicago thick crust think folks who prefer New York thin crust are foolish. Those of us who prefer thin crust, think thick crust people should get a side of bread sticks if they want extra bread :D. You folks who love your auto-loaders probably are looking for optimum performance with simplicity, and the most up to date technology. I was looking for a very good shooting shotgun, that was very well made in metal to metal fit, and wood to metal fit, in a classic style, that I could afford. So I like my "Turkish" shotgun fine.

Some cons you missed btw...,

16 gauge guns have limited runs, the 870 and 1100 and even my Huglu SxS are not currently offered in the 16 ga. configuration. A 12 or 20 make more sense when it come time to get spare parts, and therefore a vintage 16 makes even less sense than a new one.

As shot prices go up, the lower manufacturing numbers for all 16 gauge shells will mean a higher unit cost, so higher prices, and greater differences between 12 or 20 vs. the 16. Which will probably force more of "us" to start 16 gauge reloading, which will further reduce sales of factory ammo, which will lower demand for new ammo, which will cause ammo makers to reduce production, which will cause greater price differences, etc etc

My classic SxS requires that I practise using the front & back triggers to select the right or left barrel depending on where the bird is flushed, and if I'm the second hunter to engage the bird after the first hunter missed, etc. Many modern design guns have thumb selector switches, and auto-loaders give you a third shell so the first hunter has one extra chance than a SxS.


Oh, before I forget you asked...., hunt tests often use grouse or quail, and I like 7.5 shot.

OK I ALSO CONFESS, I have chamber adaptors to shoot 20 gauge shells from the 16 if the ammo ever gets too exspensive :eek: Remember I don't say that 16 is so superior a gauge that it can be seen by average hunters/shooters; that's just the standard argument.

LD

[ArmedBear]

You keep adding variables to the premis that advocates of the 16 gauge are lost in nostalgia,

You compared a Turkish shotgun with guns that occupy a different market segment. The guns I listed were some guns I think to be worth buying for the long haul. Disagree if you want, but tossing a Huglu or Stoeger or whatever into the mix and then comparing prices is apples and oranges. I surely have no ill will toward you, and I hope your Turkish gun lasts. Furthermore, I'm not a shotgun snob; to the last NAVHDA event I brought an old O/U with "honest wear", that I picked up for 500 bucks.

The idea among many 16 gauge advocates is that common, commercial 16 gauge shells with 1 oz. of shot, pattern better than common, commercial, 12 gauge shells with 1 oz. or common, commercial, 20 gauge shells with 7/8 oz. of shot. I don't claim that..., that's just the idea or the theory.

Well, they are making it up.

Yes, serious shotgunners do reload for patterns, no question about it. That's why there are so many types of wads available, and people have their favorites. (Some are full of BS also, but some really do test their loads.)

And some people do shoot handloaded or commercial competition-grade shells at birds; others don't because they don't like to chew on really hard shot, or because they figure that slightly softer shot is more effective on game because it deforms when it hits.

But none of that matters, because the point was, and is, with components of equal quality, that an undersquare load will pattern a bit better than a square load. And as I said, this doesn't matter much either way to a hunter, but there is no empirical support for a 1 oz. load patterning better in a 16 than a 12 (or better than 7/8 in a 20).

(The reason competitors care is that, in various disciplines, there are restrictions on the amount vs. the velocity of the shot, so people want to know whether they would be better off shooting 1 oz. faster or 1 1/8 oz. slower. In Olympic Trap, the numbers changed over time, so that now they use 24 grams of shot in a high-velocity 12 Gauge load, and they get GREAT patterns. This is exactly the opposite of what is suggested by someone who claims that 1 oz. patterns better in a smaller bore than a slightly larger one. It doesn't.)

By no means do I think anyone's foolish for shooting a 16. Never said that. Shoot whatever you want. But there won't be huge numbers of new 16's produced, either. This was the point of the thread; nobody is putting you or anyone else down for shooting a 16. They work, as you know from experience.

[dagger dog]

Big Boomer,

i'm 61 yyrs old and i can remember reading a similar statement about the time i bought my first shotgun at the age of 14.

it will probably go extinct along with the .22 rimfire, 38 special, .45 Colt .30 .30 Winchester !

[chas08]

I buy most of my 16 ga ammo on-line they usually average between $5-$6 dollars a box for field loads including delivery. Just get on Google and type in 16 ga. shotshells and start shopping. The RIO ammo is really great ammo for the price.

[Nematocyst]

My first shotgun (owned when I was about 14)
was a Remington 870 in 16 ga.

Loved it.

My second was also an 870 (P) in 12 ga.

Being mostly a rifle guy,
I no longer own either.

Stoeger (http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/coach.tpl) - who makes my next shotgun (a 20 ga SxS) -
doesn't seem to make a coach gun in 16.

[45auto]

Chances are, IMHO, the 1 oz shell would pattern better out of a 12 compared to a 16.

Larger bore, less pellets stacked, less deformation, shorter shot string , better "effective" pattern.

Olympic trapshooting is shot with a 12 gauge using a "20 gauge" load...24 gram(7/8 oz) because it patterns better than a 20.

[okiewita40]

I could care less about discussing shot strings and all that. I love my 16ga. Granted I did not spend a dime on it. It Belonged to my great grandfather and was handed down to me by my grandfather. After having shot 410, 20,16,12 & 10 ga. I can say i like the a 16 the most. I knocked down more pheasant with my 16 than i ever did with 12 or 20.

I guess I'll just stock up and store 16ga shells and that way when and if they ever stop producing them I'll have plenty.

[chas08]

Those of us who own and shoot "Odd Gauges" do so "Because We Like To" and we can. For me its not a matter of performance, or which one is better. I enjoy taking a limit of dove with a 28ga. SxS. Or a brace of mallards with my Grandpa's old 16ga. model 12 that was made two years before I was born. It gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling I dont get otherwise. You cant put a pricetag on that. As for, is the 16ga going extinct? Yeah....but so are we.

[ArmedBear]

Those of us who own and shoot "Odd Gauges" do so "Because We Like To" and we can. For me its not a matter of performance, or which one is better.

Exactly. And there's not a thing wrong with that!

Furthermore, there's no need to falsely claim some performance advantage as an excuse.

[Nematocyst]

Olympic trapshooting is shot with a 12 gauge using a "20 gauge" load
...24 gram(7/8 oz) because it patterns better than a 20.Oh, now that's very interesting.

Don't want to take this thread OT - it's about 16 ga more than 20 & 12 -
but that topic right there may be worthy of a thread itself.

So, I started one (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4198045#post4198045).

If anybody can offer more info about that, or is just interested in learning more, please come on by. ;)

I'm still interested in this one, too.

Nem