[MarcusWendt]

http://gothamist.com/2008/02/09/misfiring_cop_w.php

February 9, 2008
Misfiring Cop Who Hit Toddler Attempts to Shed Light on the Matter
Patrick Venetek, the cop whose service weapon wound up shooting through the ceiling of his downstairs neighbors' apartment and striking an 18-month-old's arm, gave further details on how the incident occurred. Perhaps to the relief of Porcellini's six brothers and sisters, Venetek has been stripped of his badge and gun at this time and is on modified duty.

Apparently, Ventek was going to start cleaning his 9 mm semi-automatic pistol in the dwindling natural light of a winter afternoon (natural light because Con Ed had shut off his electricity). Venetek placed the pistol on the table where he was going to clean it. Hunger struck first and he went to make a sandwich in the kitchen. Returning to the table with his sandwich, and possibly because of the dim light, he bumped into the table forcefully enough to knock the weapon to the ground, where it discharged, sending a bullet downstairs, through the floor-ceiling and through the arm of little Jonathan Porcellini, who was sitting in his playpen.

Venetek's brother, who shares the apartment with Patrick, described the situation as a freak accident and explained why their electricity was off: "On a cop's salary, we're f---ing poor. I clean sewers and he's a cop. Rent was more important [than electricity]." Venetek has only been on the force for two years, and many have complained about the low starting salaries of NYPD rookies. Amidst the piles of stacked empty beer cans and cigarette butts Thursday night, police investigators sought to figure out exactly what happened.

The boy's father, Justin Porcellini, was less than impressed with any rationalizations, contemplating that for just a few inches, he could have lost his son, instead of bringing him home later Thursday night from Brookdale University Hospital. "This is a city employee who didn't take his job seriously. It could've been worse. We're lucky nothing else happened." Jonathan will have to make daily return trips to the hospital to have his wound cleaned and will eventually require plastic surgery to fully repair the bullet wound's damage.

The Porcellinis have already contacted a lawyer and are considering legal action against Venetek, an Army veteran who served in a unit that guarded the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (after reports of abuse at the facility were exposed), and also against the city. Although, off-duty at the time, the News spoke to legal experts who said Venetek could be found guilty of negligence and the city could be held liable for damages.

Photo of Patrick Venetek via the Daily News

[SAWBONES]

Oh.
Sure.
Another person of dubious veracity whose gun somehow "went off" in the context of "cleaning it."

The damn things, seems like they all do that.

Doesn't matter that the firing pin safety plus the drop safety on Glocks makes such essentially impossible, that's how it happened. No matter that drop tests of Glocks have never resulted in one firing. "Patrick Venetek" says it happened to him.

[whatbrick]

It doesn't mention what manufacture of firearm he had, though a Glock would be a good guess for a PD. So assuming it was a Glock, then either:

1) his weapon was not in proper working order, which would be rare unless he (or someone else) messed with it, or

2) He's lying to cover his posterior.

My vote would go to "2" being more likely than to "1" in most cases.

Even if it was a malfunction of the weapon itself, he is still guilty of negligence (if not by the law, then definitely by proper firearm safety etiquette) since he left a loaded firearm lying around. If his case of the munchies was greater than his desire to clean his weapon, then it should have been unloaded (mag out, chamber empty, slide locked back) or kept secured in his duty-rig well out of the way.

In my opinion he should be cleaning sewers with his brother until he can gather enough funds to take some basic firearm safety courses...after he has paid for the child's medical bills.

[R&J]

From Answers.com:

Service Weapons:
Officers of the NYPD are issued Sidearms with DAO capability. This list includes both Pistols and Revolvers, which includes SIG P226s, S&W 5946s, and Glock 19s (modified version which has a custom 12 pound trigger). Some officers may still be carrying S&W .38 Special Revolvers.

*****

Pretty sloppy for a so called professional. :mad:

The parents will, of course, sue, and the county will pay. :rolleyes:

Could've been much, much worse... :(

I would dismiss the cop! :fire:

--Ray

[Navy joe]

Where does it say it was a Glock? Probably is based on that being the most predominant NYPD weapon and probably because they go off when you pull the trigger while disassembling to clean. Story is pure BS no matter the gun type. Got no lights but empty beer cans and cigs all over? Yeah, those are free. The family smells like lying wouldn't be out of character. Glad the little one survived.

[brigadier]

Even if it was a malfunction of the weapon itself, he is still guilty of negligence (if not by the law, then definitely by proper firearm safety etiquette) since he left a loaded firearm lying around. If his case of the munchies was greater than his desire to clean his weapon, then it should have been unloaded (mag out, chamber empty, slide locked back) or kept secured in his duty-rig well out of the way.

I am with you on this. In the military, servicing your weapon is No.1 priority. HOWEVER, though I can see the need to somehow deal with the medical bills, I wouldn't torment the guy for the mistake. Sure, if he has no remorse, then I can understand the idea to really go after him but overall, people who make costly mistakes that hurt others are usually pretty torn up about them.
Regardless how it happened, it was obviously a mistake. If he shot the kid on purpose, then he must have had x-Ray vision or have been a lucky shot. At the same time, that kids medical bill is nothing pretty.
My first guess would be that if it was indeed a Glock, then he probably accidentally discharged it while taking it down. If he actually did that, then it would be ideal to point the finger at Glock, since from a comprehensive point of view, it is a dangerous system and they already know that it results in a considerable amount of shooting accidents. Not to encourage people to be sue happy but if that IS the case, we have a situation where someone got hurt as result of a KNOWN issue with Glocks that leads to accidents at a considerable proportion which Glock has ignored to date. I guess what I am getting at is someone needs to get their attention. Not saying it isn't (mechanically) sufficient, but it doesn't float well with human error and comprehension. My experience in the life taking/sacrificing world is that you fix your errors when they are discovered. Glocks behavior reminds me of MRI pretending that the .50AE Desert Eagle is a fully reliable gun and problem free despite the fact that the stock Jennings 9 beat it in the California trials.

[easyg]

...and possibly because of the dim light, he bumped into the table forcefully enough to knock the weapon to the ground, where it discharged, sending a bullet downstairs,...
I don't believe this story at all.
Glocks have been torture tested and drop tested thousands of times and have never been known to discharge when dropped.

Amidst the piles of stacked empty beer cans and cigarette butts Thursday night, police investigators sought to figure out exactly what happened.
They can afford cigs and beer but they can't afford electricity???
Sounds like they definitely have their priorities screwed up.



My first guess would be that if it was indeed a Glock, then he probably accidentally discharged it while taking it down. If he actually did that, then it would be ideal to point the finger at Glock, since from a comprehensive point of view, it is a dangerous system and they already know that it results in a considerable amount of shooting accidents.
Not to encourage people to be sue happy but if that IS the case, we have a situation where someone got hurt as result of a KNOWN issue with Glocks that leads to accidents at a considerable proportion which Glock has ignored to date.
There's nothing dangerous about the "Glock system" and there are no "KNOWN issues" with Glocks.

Just keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

And when you're going to clean your pistol, the first thing you do, regardless of pistol brand, is remove the magazine and clear the chamber.
They don't just go off by themselves.

[fletcher]

It was one of two things:

1) Failed to unload before disassembly.
2) The infamous "drop-n-grab" resulted in a ND.

[RNB65]

Smells like CYA to me.
.

[HorseSoldier]

+1. The guy's story sounds like he's trying to hide the fact that operator error was involved.

[pbearperry]

No way did the Glock go off on its own.The guy is a moron.When was the last time you thought about cleaning your gun in the dark?
I bet the guy was contemplating suicide and got cold feet.

[buzz_knox]

Unless the weapon has a manufacturing defect or maintenance was disregarded, he's a liar.

They can afford cigs and beer but they can't afford electricity???
Sounds like they definitely have their priorities screwed up.

Exactly In law enforcement circles, that's called a clue! It never ceases to amaze me how people will complain about lousy pay, the dole not being big enough, cost of health care, etc., when they are somehow able to swing big screen TVs, alcohol, cigarettes, multiple cars, and other crap that is certainly not required for subsistence.

[Anna's Dad]

Got no lights but empty beer cans and cigs all over?

I had the exact same thought. I had a -little- sympathy for the cop (although the story doesn't smell right) until I read the bit about the "piles of stacked empty beer cans and cigarette butts".

[Deanimator]

He's lying. The whole story smells like Lincoln Park Lagoon.

[Mainsail]

…it would be ideal to point the finger at Glock, since from a comprehensive point of view, it is a dangerous system and they already know that it results in a considerable amount of shooting accidents…

Point the finger at Glock? So the pistol is responsible? In what state of total lunacy is that reasonable? Are you working for the Brady organization? Should we reopen the issue of lawsuits against firearms manufacturers because some people are too damn stupid to use them safely? The Glock is absolutely safe when used properly; any unintentional or negligent discharge is 100% due to the failure of the person holding it. I owned a Glock for about 17 years and never had any issues with its system.

…we have a situation where someone got hurt as result of a KNOWN issue with Glocks that leads to accidents at a considerable proportion which Glock has ignored to date…

No, we an issue where someone (the off duty cop), through his own negligence, discharged his pistol into the ceiling. There was nothing ‘accidental’ about it. If someone discharges any pistol, especially a glock, and didn’t intend for it to happen, they have only themselves to blame. They are deficient, not the pistol.

[PirateRadio]

Mainsail, I agree with you totally.

[wheelgunslinger]

Gothamist is a collection of blogs.
Here's the Post article (http://www.nypost.com/seven/02092008/news/regionalnews/cop_who_shot_kid_has_light_excuse_850777.htm).

He's been pretty much relieved of duty, and a lawsuit will be forthcoming.

Instead of defending Glock, people who live in apartments or close suburban housing should take note of this incident when formulating Home Defense plans. If you're not an NYPD cop, you're talking about a civil suit that would ruin you financially and likely criminal charges as well.
More importantly, it's just wrong for someone to get shot in their own home while minding their own business because of a bonehead who can't remember the 4 rules or think critically.
Every incident like this is fuel for the Brady bonfire.
Maybe he was poor, but it doesn't cost a penny to be responsible and safe with your weapons.

[rockinrussky]

The only 'issue' that Glocks have is that if someone doesn't use the 4 rules of proper firearm handling then an ND may happen, just like with any other firearm. If there are people (LEOs and others) who forget to properly clear their Glock before pulling the trigger as part of the takedown procedure, well there's not much any of us can do about that :banghead:

[strat81]

I had a -little- sympathy for the cop (although the story doesn't smell right) until I read the bit about the "piles of stacked empty beer cans and cigarette butts".
Agreed. And in NYC, residential garbage collection is FREE. You do have to pay for the garbage can, though.

If you're not an NYPD cop, you're talking about a civil suit that would ruin you financially and likely criminal charges as well.
Yup. And you can bet that the NYPD will fight this vigorously since it would be *very bad* if their standard issue Glock 19 was deemed unsafe.

I own a Glock. I like it, but it's not perfect. Glock haters lament the lack of a manually operated safety. However, I have never heard anyone claim that Glocks are not drop safe.

http://www.glock.com/english/pistols_adv03.htm
The GLOCK firing pin safety is a solid hardened steel pin which, in the secured state, blocks the firing pin channel, rendering the igniting of a chambered cartridge by the firing pin impossible. The firing pin safety is only pushed upward to release the firing pin for firing when the trigger is pulled and the safety is pushed up through the backward movement of the trigger bar. Releasing the trigger will automatically reactivate the firing pin safety.
The NYPD has this gun now. They will test every which way they can, dropping it from tables, chairs, porches, roofs, trestles, moving cars, staircases... you name it. And every single time, I bet it will not fire. Then, they will pull the trigger and get a bang.

[Texshooter]

and there is NO possible way that this mechanical device (glock or whatever) could have malfunctioned?

It HAS to be this guys fault?

There is NO way in hell that judgement can wait until all the facts are known?

[MASTEROFMALICE]

There's no one here who doesn't know that I back other cops anytime I see them taking unjust flak. But, if this story is accurate (and they NEVER are) then he's screwed. Barring a real life,we-can-prove-it and-here's-the-broken-part malfunction, he's trying to cover himself. He still a rookie and when he screwed up, however he did it, he lied about it.

Possibly.

[buzz_knox]

It HAS to be this guys fault?

Glocks have many issues, real and imagined. Discharging due to being dropped from a table/shelf/etc isn't among them. It doesn't HAVE to be this guy's fault, but if you bet on his being a lying screwup, your money would be safe.

[Firepower!]

Now I am quite confused as I carry my GLOCK with live round when I go out. I need to get to the bottom of this since I dont want to injure myself or anyone else.

BUT I agree with the fellow members that there is no mention of Glock in the article.

Pile of beer cans does not help here as well!

Well I am going to drop my Glock from a few different place to check my piece out for myself. But I dont see how this entire thing is realted to Glock, it could have been other issues.

There are always malfunctions but this time this sounds like a cooked up stuff.

[buzz_knox]

Now I am quite confused as I carry my GLOCK with live round when I go out. I need to get to the bottom of this since I dont want to injure myself or anyone else.

Don't pull the trigger when you don't want to, and you'll be fine. I screwed up once and put my Glock in some luggage on a bed to conceal it while staying at a friend's place. The muzzle was in a safe direction, but it was still loaded. I forgot the Glock was there and ended up flinging it across the room while moving the luggage. It was a concrete floored basement and the Glock hit hard enough for a corner of the slide to peen the floor. No discharge, no light firing pin strike on the primer, nothing. Wipe the dust off the Glock (which was undamaged) and only the chunk of missing floor evidenced the event.

That anecdotal experience can be added to all the others (including Glocks dropped intentionally and unintentionally from planes) along with the official tests.

It's theoretically possible that some defect could cause a Glock drop-safety mechanism to fail, but it's probably in the same likelihood of a 1911's manual and grip safety failing at the same time and allowing a cocked and locked 1911 to discharge all on its own. It's not worth worrying about.

[Deanimator]

It HAS to be this guys fault?
YES, it DOES.

His story has ALL of the hallmarks of an irresponsible person who doesn't really know firearms telling a clumsy lie to evade responsibility for his own negligence.

He's got no qualified immunity for his actions and I hope the family bankrupts him. He deserves it simply for the ineptitude of his lie, nevermind the lack of character it demonstrates.

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

Alcohol and ciggarettes are addictive ! electricity is not !

[Quiet]

Sounds like user error to me as well.


Personal experience, my loaded Glock Model 22 fell off a 3rd story building and landed on concrete and it didn't go off. Can't see how a less than 5' drop onto an apartment floor would make it go off.

[SDC]

It HAS to be this guys fault?

If it was a Glock, yes it was; the only time a Glock's striker is compressed far enough to fire a chambered cartridge is when the trigger is pulled. That means he was either dicking around with a loaded gun, or he managed to pull the trigger of that loaded gun by trying to grab it as it "fell".

[KBintheSLC]

I don't buy it. I have dropped my Glock several times. I have even wrecked my mountain bike while carrying the Glock (with one in the chamber) without a discharge.

I think the guy "effed up" and had a negligent discharge... in a desperate attempt to save face, he blamed it on the Glock.

I call BS on this one.

[buzz_knox]

If it was a Glock, yes it was; the only time a Glock's striker is compressed far enough to fire a chambered cartridge is when the trigger is pulled.

The Sig and S&W that are authorized are double action only. So, it is just as unlikely that either of them would fire in this situation.

[MASTEROFMALICE]

He's got no qualified immunity for his actions and I hope the family bankrupts him. He deserves it simply for the ineptitude of his lie, nevermind the lack of character it demonstrates. That's right! Burn him! Burn the witch!

[easyg]

If the Glock had a problem with not being "drop safe", I think the Austrian Army would have discovered it about twenty years ago.

[Headless]

It occurs to me that if the gun went off when it fell, it would have had to have hit the ground muzzle-first to make the firing pin slam forward enough to ignite a round - and the internal safety would have had to have already jammed/failed.

If that were the case, it'd be a contact shot to the floor, on impact.
I expect that will be very easy to discern vs. one that was put through the floor from a couple of feet away...

[MarcusWendt]

When was the last time you thought about cleaning your gun in the dark?
I bet the guy was contemplating suicide and got cold feet.

Interesting thought. I never considered that.

All we really have to go on is his word on this. Either way he'll likely lose his job and the city will be sued.

[pbearperry]

Sounds like the dummy is already broke.I think a lawsuit against the City would be their best bet.I still think he was thinking of suicide.Evidence...beer cans everywhere,no electricity,cleaning the Glock in the dark etc.

[ARTJR338WM]

Considering that this ocured in NYC and the megala-mainac they have elected mayor/dictatore dont be surprised if Glock themselves is a named party in the law suit and is assesed some percentage of fault and or financial liability by the jury and winds up paying because of the "deep pockets" mentality of libility lawyers.

I have zero knowledge of the mechanicle workings of the Glock firearm, but base on my experience of people and acidental discharges, the odds it is the firearms fault through a design flaw and not the person involved are at best up there with the chances we will find evidence of a past advanced civilization having exsisted on the sun.

This situation remindes me of the recent fatal shooting of a driver by his wealthy former NBA star boss in NJ. Because of his financial situation made available to him the type of lawyers that could convince a jury the victim shot himself, because in this day and age so, so few people have any idea how the mechanics of a gun actually works. The end result for the shooter in that case was a hung jury. Guess his lawyer earned his pay.

[Phil DeGraves]

I am no fan of Glocks, but this story seems ludicrous to me. Why? Because you don't clean guns that are LOADED!

[Calhoun321]

There is another option: the gun fell as described, but the trigger contacted something during the fall. I could have indeed been a grab for the gun, or it could have been a coat hanger, belt, piece of furniture, or who knows what. Lets face it, the glock trigger doesn't have to be pressed very far to fire.

[Warren]

GLOCKs are drop safe, but they ain't cop safe.

[Steve C]

A Glock could not go off if dropped without the trigger being pulled.

Another modern pistol left cocked and no safety, maybe, but highly unlikely.

An old Star or Llamma could go off if hammer was down on a live round as their firing pins extend onto the primer with the hammer down.

If the gun went off and is a typical modern police firearm someone pulled the trigger. Not enough real information to tell if the now former officer was lying or not. Most likely he was lying.

[Firepower!]

Well here is a link I picked up from a TFL forum posted by one of the members who has encapsulated Glock's reliabilty:

http://theprepared.com/index.php?opt...d=90&Itemid=40

[Calhoun321]

If Glocks are so drop safe, I challenge you to load one up and start dropping it into some form of hedge or shrub. The fact is, there is nothing preventing the gun from firing if something, even a twig, contacts the trigger with marginal force.

[buzz_knox]

If Glocks are so drop safe, I challenge you to load one up and start dropping it into some form of hedge or shrub. The fact is, there is nothing preventing the gun from firing if something, even a twig, contacts the trigger with marginal force.

NYPD Glocks have a trigger pull of around 11lbs. Not exactly "marginal force".

[Lonestar49]

...

Sounds like, that, between all the smoke, and beer, residue permeating the air that, he made the perfect drop, muzzle straight down, or close, to make that shot.. :rolleyes:

Now to some facts: The LAPD did, controlled area, drop testing of many different 9mm Glocks, from an 8 story building to ground/cement. Not one, being loaded, went off, and all of them, then were fired, empty, mag-full after mag-full, and they all worked, with dents, big chips, sights broken, etc.

Have to rule in favor of the Glock, in that, it did not fail, but rather, the mind, hand, and finger, of the officer failed.


Ls

[Calhoun321]

11 lbs; yes - - for a fraction of an inch

I'll admit my contention is unlikely. I'm just trying to suggest another possibility.

[Deanimator]

That's right! Burn him! Burn the witch!
It's not as though he did anything wrong. After all, he only mutilated a little kid, then lied about it. Heck, I think he deserves a Legion of Merit...

[CWL]

Don't let the attitude of the reporter cloud your opinion of this person. He/she is leading the reader on by painting a very negative picture of him and his lifestyle. (No power, beercans, cig butts, former military in Abu Graib). We live in a free country, we are free to chose how to spend (or not spend) our money.

He should only be judged on how the ND happened.

[norwegianoperator]

Over here we call the Glock = Click!!! it does fail sometimes

[buzz_knox]

11 lbs; yes - - for a fraction of an inch

Once you generate enough pressure to pull the trigger, it really doesn't matter if it's a fraction of an inch or a full inch. By contrast, 11lbs of force is enough to delay firing if the trigger strikes an inanimate object until the Glock has tilted off the angle necessary for the trigger to pull straight back.

I understand about offering a scenario where it was the Glock's fault but it's exceedingly unlikely even viewing the facts in the cop's favor.

[GeorgiaGlocker]

Assuming it was a Glock, that dang trigger circuit board must have shorted out.

[DoubleTapDrew]

it would have had to have hit the ground muzzle-first to make the firing pin slam forward enough to ignite a round - and the internal safety would have had to have already jammed/failed.

All 3 of em. Anybody that has seen the safety diagrams knows that it would take a LOT to make one of those discharge by being dropped (like several parts of the gun being misaligned, jammed, bound, and still it is unlikely.)
I think it's a CYA deal. Chances are he pointed the gun at the floor and pulled the trigger.

[Deanimator]

Has the NYPD drug tested this guy since the shooting?

Decent paying job + no money + irresponsible behavior = serious drug problem

[pbearperry]

Actually,I fear that the quality of applicants for NYPD has been going down hill for the last few years.NY has been having a problem making their quotas for the last few years because a lot of their veteran cops have been leaving for better paying jobs in NY state and NJ.Also,there is a shortage of new recruits because of the low starting pay.I believe the starting pay is around $25 grand.It was reduced a few years ago to save money and it has backfired.Nobody can afford to start at that money and find affordable housing there.

[Deanimator]

NYPD good paying job

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually,I fear that the quality of applicants for NYPD has been going down hill for the last few years.NY has been having a problem making their quotas for the last few years because a lot of their veteran cops have been leaving for better paying jobs in NY state and NJ.Also,there is a shortage of new recruits because of the low starting pay.I believe the starting pay is around $25 grand.It was reduced a few years ago to save money and it has backfired.Nobody can afford to start at that money and find affordable housing there.
That doesn't explain THIS guy's situation, all the more so when you consider he was living with ANOTHER person who was also working. If you sniff hard enough, you can smell the aroma of meth in this story.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Money to buy beer but not electricity? Moron.

[rino451]

My personal belief is that it's a case of Glock-leg that "missed"...

[Landric]

Wow, three pages of replies to this thread and we really are shooting in the dark, if the pun can be forgiven.

Nowhere in the article does it say that the pistol involved was a Glock. None of the replies provide any evidence that the pistol was a Glock. NYPD also authorizes the SIG 226 and S&W 5946, so it could also have been either of those. In addition, it could very well have been one of a number of off-duty weapons that NYPD authorizes. I know the article said is was his service weapon, but the media does not have a reputation for getting facts right, so it could just have easily been an off-duty weapon. There is also a very obvious bias in the article, so I'm hesitant to take it at face value.

That said, I suspect that the officer in question probably accidentally fired his weapon into the floor or knocked it off the table and tried to catch it, and in doing so, pulled the trigger. I am, however, also willing to accept that it is possible that his story is true. Either way, I think waiting for the outcome of the investigation is the most prudent course of action.

[FlyPenFly]

Didn't Glock make some updates because it didn't pass FBI drop tests?

[dalepres]

If that were the case, it'd be a contact shot to the floor, on impact.
I expect that will be very easy to discern vs. one that was put through the floor from a couple of feet away...

That's the best post I have seen in this thread. That is going to be the proof.

I just don't buy the idea that a hanger or bush or something else could generate 11 pounds of pressure. While some protrusions might actually be able to withstand 11 pounds of pressure - thereby exerting an equal but opposite force of 11 pounds, no handgun is capable of exerting the 11 pounds of force during the fall in order to cause that equal but opposite force to come in to play.

Additionally, the trigger of a falling gun is protected by a trigger guard. In order to penetrate the trigger guard and cause the weapon to fire, you would have to fall onto the protrusion, the protruding object would have to flex under the weight of the falling gun. The gun would slide along the protrusion to the end of the object before the end of the object could snap back into the trigger guard as the gun slid off. Now, we are only talking about the very tip of the protrusion penetrating the gun at all. While at the fixed connection point of the protrusion might have been pushed enough to exert a force equal to the falling weight of the weapon, at the tip of any flexible object the kinetic energy in that flexing motion would be significantly less than the energy at the fixed connection point.

If you argue that the object is potentially stiff rather than flexible - the only possible way to exert enough force to pull even a lightweight trigger - then the gun slides off the protrusion without the protrusion entering the trigger guard.

If the gun falls at such angle that it falls directly onto a fixed solid protrusion, hitting the protrusion directly with the trigger - a highly unlikely scenario in this case - the fact still remains that the falling weapon weighs less than the required trigger pull for firing - unless the trigger is modified to require less pull weight than the falling weapon. [added by edit:]Plus, to hit the trigger directly means that the protrusion entered the trigger guard area at an angle. The indirect angle of the strike reduces the possible pressure on the trigger even more; the trigger slides along the protrusion harmlessly. [ end of edit.]

This guy - or perhaps his brother who lived with him - was playing with the gun. It went off. He lied to cover his tail because playing with the gun proved that he is not responsible enough to be a cop and he does not want to lose his job.

Lying in a police investigation, though, is a felony punishable in many states or federally by up to 20 years in prison - along with the automatic lifetime ban on owning firearms. While I don't agree that felons should automatically not be allowed to defend their families or themselves, I do agree that felons whose crimes involved firearms should absolutely be banned from owning or possessing firearms for life - this guy included.

[wheelgunslinger]

Update at the daily news on the 14th (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/02/14/2008-02-14_family_of_toddler_accidentally_shot_by_c-1.html)

Still no mention of the brand/type of weapon. Only that it was a 9mm.

Venetek was, apparently, an MP in IRAQ and Abu Ghirab. So, it's not like he was some green rookie.

[owen]

I just don't buy the idea that a hanger or bush or something else could generate 11 pounds of pressure. While some protrusions might actually be able to withstand 11 pounds of pressure - thereby exerting an equal but opposite force of 11 pounds, no handgun is capable of exerting the 11 pounds of force during the fall in order to cause that equal but opposite force to come in to play.


depends on how far the gun falls, doesn't it?

I've seen lots of crazy unexpected things in high-speed video. saying something can't happen is just asking for that very thing to happen.

[Deanimator]

I've seen lots of crazy unexpected things in high-speed video. saying something can't happen is just asking for that very thing to happen.
However possibilities and probabilities are different things. It's POSSIBLE that I could be the next Shah of Iran. It's as PROBABLE as the gun in question having gone off without the trigger being pulled. The cop's lying, and probably has some drug related skeletons in his closet.

[dalepres]

depends on how far the gun falls, doesn't it?

It does, but this gun fell 3 feet. Hardly enough to achieve maximum terminal velocity. I will give you that when falling the gun would exert more pressure on any such protrusion than when simply placed on the protrusion but I doubt it would be enough to cause the weapon to fire.

I have heard plenty of cases where careless hunters have fired rifles in the brush. That is a different case. The rifle is heavier. The triggers may, or may not, be lighter. And the rifle is propelled through the brush by a hunter that may not even notice the extra few pounds of pressure.

This "accident" was caused by carelessness. That's a given. The only part remaining is whether the guy is lying - and needs to be in prison.

[pbearperry]

Deanimator where can I get one of those Crystal Balls that you are using?Drug problems in the closet eh?Any more info for the forum?:scrutiny:

[Deanimator]

Deanimator where can I get one of those Crystal Balls that you are using?Drug problems in the closet eh?Any more info for the forum?
Look at the general situation.

1. TWO people live in the apartment, BOTH with jobs.
2. There is no electricity, DESPITE 1.
3. These TWO employed people apparently have money for BEER, but NOT electricity. The place is a pigsty... as is often the case with out of control drug users.
4. One or both of these people engages in wreckless behavior that leads to the maiming of a small child.
5. One of these people living in the apartment concocts a clearly ludicrous excuse for the shooting of the child.

If it were anybody ELSE, you'd say drugs were involved. Got a BETTER explanation?

[MarcusWendt]

That doesn't explain THIS guy's situation, all the more so when you consider he was living with ANOTHER person who was also working. If you sniff hard enough, you can smell the aroma of meth in this story.

Without knowing anything about this guy's situation or the circumstances that led to the lack of electricity you are willing to call a Police officer and a Veteran a METH HEAD???

Wow! I hope yo don't ever have to pull jury duty.

I agree that the situation is odd and even sketchy, but I'm not going to go overboard and start calling Veterans and cops meth addicts.

Did the NYPD drop drug testing of it's officers?

[Deanimator]

Without knowing anything about this guy's situation or the circumstances that led to the lack of electricity you are willing to call a Police officer and a Veteran a METH HEAD???

Wow! I hope yo don't ever have to pull jury duty.

I agree that the situation is odd and even sketchy, but I'm not going to go overboard and start calling Veterans and cops meth addicts.

Did the NYPD drop drug testing of it's officers?
So, why exactly WOULD two people with jobs have money for beer, but NOT electricity?

Some cops use drugs. Some SELL drugs. That's not a matter of conjecture. Do a Google search on "Miedzianowski" and "Chicago Police". And if GIs don't use and or sell drugs, then the various units I served in sure railroaded some guys for possessing drugs. Were you IN the military ever?

Like I said, if this guy worked for Circuit City, you'd have no doubts at all. This whole thing stinks of drug addiction.

[MarcusWendt]

Yes Dean I served in the Army, 7th Inf., but that's not where I learned not to make accusations or insinuations against people without far more evidence than you've presented based solely on second hand information. Come to think of it, I learned that lesson at a much younger age.

YOu may be right, but I'd need much more information and evidence to make that leap at this point.

At this point all we know is that a gun dropped and fired because that's about all the info we have. Mechanical devices fail, it happens.

[Deanimator]

At this point all we know is that a gun dropped and fired because that's about all the info we have.

Uh, NO, we DON'T "know" that. It's a self-serving assertion of EXTREME dubiousness made by a guy who pays for beer, but NOT electricity.

Mechanical devices fail, it happens.
Bad lies by screwy people fail far more often, and with far better reason.

Let's try Occam's Razor, shall we?

1. A firearm with MULTIPLE redundant safety mechanisms, goes off after a very short fall.

OR

2. A guy who exhibits multiple dysfunctional behavior patterns gets drunk and or high and negligently fires a shot through the floor, maiming a child.

You tell me WHICH is more likely.

I own two Glocks. 1 just isn't going to happen. You have to pull the trigger. I doubt that as so implausibly described, 1 would have happened with a cocked and UNLOCKED M1911 in good repair.

It'd be one thing to just shoot a BABY. It's a lot worse that he's not man enough to own up to it. It demonstrates a lack of integrity unbecoming in a police officer. If he's proven negligent and somehow does NOT lose his job, he'll be impeached by every defense attorney for every defendant against whom he testifies... if he's EVER allowed to testify.

[flag2442]

Several officers have had several negligent discharges at my department (glock) and all have been during the disasembly process when the trigger needs to be pulled and someone has not followed the rules.....others have been sympathetic sqeeze. About half were right after they went from revolvers to Glock. In 11+ years carrying a glock and being a Glock armorer I have never seen what that officer is describing happen but I was not there and do not have all the facts.

We do have a saying though....."you lie you die"

flag2442

[JohnKSa]

All of the approved/issue firearms for NYPD are drop safe. For things to have happened as described requires a very unusual situation to be compounded with parts breakage or defective/damaged/improperly modifed parts.

I am HIGHLY disinclined to believe that it happened as described.

BTW, anyone who thinks a Glock can be easily set off by a trigger snag while being dropped can do a simple experiment that will help make it plain how unlikely that is.

Get a pencil and an unloaded Glock. Put in a weighted dummy magazine and rack the slide to "set" the action. Now throw it into the air over a padded surface and catch it with the pencil by poking the pencil through the triggerguard. I've done it until I got bored--without ever getting the striker to drop. And that wasn't using one with an NY trigger installed.

[EMT40SW]

Glocks have been dropped from 10 story buildings fully loaded with one in the chamber and not accidently discharged (AD). This link a Glock was thrown from a plane and dragged by a truck fully loaded, no AD! By the way the Glock is the standard for reliability, everyone of these torture tests results in no ADs but the Glock goes bang with every pull of the trigger, period.

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

[Matt-J2]

Given the low salary and massive rent prices*, I'm not at all surprised they can't afford electricity after buying beer and cigs.

Probably can't afford drugs, either.





*$2000 a month is pretty average for a 2 bedroom with 1100-1200sq feet. Might even be on the low end.

[Deanimator]

Given the low salary and massive rent prices*, I'm not at all surprised they can't afford electricity after buying beer and cigs.

Probably can't afford drugs, either.

And what do we tell OTHER people who can't afford rent AND beer and cigs?

GIVE UP BEER AND CIGS!!!

Apparently these two "public servants" don't have any more sensory apparatus than the less sagacious of our welfare recipients.

Of course we don't have a balance sheet on these two. I still think that money that could be going to electricity is getting smoked or injected.

[Matt-J2]

Deanimator, I think you're misunderstanding the tone of my post. I'm not supporting them. I'm just saying I'm not surprised. Once they've got rent taken care of, bought some food, and then their beer and cigs, well, it's no surprise that they wouldn't be able to afford electricity.
I'm sure they spent some money elsewhere as well, but it wouldn't be very much(cause they wouldn't have much left), and there's no evidence to support accusations of drug addiction. Seriously, your first assumption for why two young single men don't have any money is that they spent it at various bars/nightclubs/hotspots trying to get into the pants of young women.

[Deanimator]

Seriously, your first assumption for why two young single men don't have any money is that they spent it at various bars/nightclubs/hotspots trying to get into the pants of young women.
...so they could bring them back to their swingin' batchelor pad. They keep the lights down low 'cause it's romantic...

[Matt-J2]

Some people call it a lack of electricity, other people call it mood lighting. :p

Besides, the ladies won't know what a mess the place is if they can't see it, now will they? Having no electricity might be helping them!

[Deanimator]

Some people call it a lack of electricity, other people call it mood lighting.

Besides, the ladies won't know what a mess the place is if they can't see it, now will they? Having no electricity might be helping them!
Reminds me of the episode of "Friends" where Ross dated the hot girl who lived in an utter pigsty, worse even than my place. He sat on her couch and put his hand in a patch of... something, then found her long dead pet that she hadn't seen in a while.

[Fat_Tony]

Hi Flag2442. I do not understand all of your post. What is a "sympathetic squeeze"? I have never heard that term before. Thanks.

[buzz_knox]

What is a "sympathetic squeeze"? I have never heard that term before.

When you tighten one hand, the other tends to do the same. Now, imagine you are doing something with the weak hand (i.e. putting cuffs on someone or grappling) while holding a pistol in the strong hand with your finger on the trigger (in violation of the rules, common sense, etc). You squeeze the weak hand, the other one does the same automatically, and bang.

[jgo296]

yeah yeah hes lying if it dropped barrel down the inertia pulls the trigger forward

[SouthpawShootr]

Horse manure. He knocked it off the table and tried to catch it. Then lied about it. Hard as it may be, when your gun falls it's always better to let it hit the ground. If it's a quality make, then it will survive and you won't end up with any holes in things that shouldn't have them (ceilings, floors, TV screens, people, that sort of thing). When you try to catch it, it nearly a given that you'll manage to put your finger in the one place it shouldn't be.

[dalepres]

Horse manure. He knocked it off the table and tried to catch it. Then lied about it.

You give him the benefit of the doubt. I think that is a very unlikely scenario but it is certainly a possible one. So let's give him that benefit of the doubt. But your next sentence says it all. "Then lied about it."

As I said, lying to a police officer during an investigation is a felony. The guy loses his job, loses his right to ever own a firearm.

Dale

[Shadow1198]

I would think from a forensics standpoint it should be plainly obvious if he's lying or not. I'm no expert though common sense would seem to dictate that if the gun fell and went off on the floor, there would be powder burns on the floor as opposed to an ND from several feet above the floor. I still do not understand how anyone has an ND, I mean it just seems like pure stupidity to me. I have not had one yet, and I always force myself to always remove the mag then check the chamber is clear. I've ingrained it into my mind so that it is instinctive and that is the first thing I always think of when handling a gun. There is that plus the 3 or 4 "rules" I always abide by.

[TexasGlockaholic]

The Dallas suburb of McKinney Texas had a female officer "accidentally" shoot a homeowner about 6 years ago. She was carrying a Glock 22 when she responded to a residential alarm call. The home was very large in size (around 5000 sq. ft. if I recall) and the homeowner was alerted at work to the alarm and went home to reset it. As she was leaving the McKinney Officer shot her. She claimed the home owner's door swung open violently and hit the gun causing it to "just go off." Problem is there are so many redundant safety mechanisms in a Glock that is almost impossible unless the gun has been tampered with. She was not charged (I don't even think a Grand Jury was convened) and is back to being an officer and carrying a Glock.

The trigger on a Glock must be pulled to field strip and release the slide from the frame. My thinking is this ignorant guy ejected the mag, forgot to clear the chamber, pointed the barrel down at the floor (in what he thought was a safe direction) and pulled the trigger to release the slide. I know because I take mine outside and point it at the ground in a safe direction to release the slide even if I have physically and visually cleared the chamber. I do it because if I just make it a habit, it might just prevent an accident some day. Also, my 11 year old often watches me clean my guns and I am trying to pass on the good practice to him.

Mistakes happen. And often with tragic consequences. There is not a person on this board that has not made a mistake with a loaded weapon. Whether it be a passing barrel sweep to someone, or forgetting to clear the chamber, we have all done it. Could this have been prevented? Absolutely. Sounds like an amateur Glock owner to me.

[GLOOB]

Digging up a really old thread, here, for nothing. First two words of post #14 is all that need be said.

[thehootman]

Stupid and guns never did go well together. Stupid doesn't do well with fire or dynamite either.

[White Horseradish]

This was two years ago. A search for Patrick Venetek turns up nothing except copies of this article. Either the disposition of this was not newsworthy, or they are still in court.

[thehootman]

You give him the benefit of the doubt. I think that is a very unlikely scenario but it is certainly a possible one. So let's give him that benefit of the doubt. But your next sentence says it all. "Then lied about it."

As I said, lying to a police officer during an investigation is a felony. The guy loses his job, loses his right to ever own a firearm.

Dale
You don't ever have to speak to a police officer if you don't want too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik