[Timthinker]

During the 19th century, soldiers and civilians depended upon caplock revolvers as a means of self-defense. This obvious historical fact led me to ponder an unusual question: what would a modern caplock revolver look like if it was designed for self-defense purposes? Admittedly, this idea is impractical for several reasons. I recognize this fact now to prevent someone from hijacking my thread by stressing the impracticality of such a design. Yet, the idea is intriguing to me at least. So, what are some ideas our contributors have about such a gun? I would appreciate your design inputs.


Timthinker

[Shotgun Willy]

Don't make it a caplock. Make it electric, like the rifle cva put out. I think making it break open, like a Schofield, for rapid reloading, would be a good idea. Just break it open, pull out the empty cylinder, drop in the full one, and snap it closed.

[Pulp]

A 1911 will function with BP loads, at least for a little while. At least I've always heard it will, never tried it myself.

[Pancho]

The last percussion revolver designed by Colt was the 1862 Colt Police. It was a 1/3 smaller than the full sized Colts. Check out my thread on my photo experiment. It shows two of my 62's compared to a Ruger Old Army for size. Dell leathers even has a cool shoulder rig made just for the 1862 Colt Police.

[Macmac]

I don't believe there can be any design, unless you have a working time machine. The time machine is what is lacking as it is based on time.

I lived in a modern world in the 19th century for 1,095 days or 3 full years.

My time was based on 19th century time, and everyone else was in the 20th at that time. When you live in one time frame and everyone else lives in another there is no way to make things equal.

Trying selfdefence in the 21st century in the 19th time mode is certainly going to have a bad ending for whom ever trys that trick.

[Pancho]

Yeah Mac, but can you imagine a car jacker being shot at at close range with a black powder pistol at night? The flame, the smoke, the terror, the fecal matter all over the sidewalk.

[Timthinker]

Let me restate that I realize such a design is impractical. Nevertheless, I am interested in the design features others would like to see on such a project. Consider this an intellectual exercise if nothing else. I hope this info helps clearify the nature of this thread. After reading a few more posts, I will state some of my views. Thanks for your indulgence.


Timthinker

[Macmac]

Yeah I can, but if he has a buddy with a 21st century rig, it is still going to have a bad ending...

Oh I dream of standing in my doorway with 2 big old hoss pistols in .69 bores, and while I am nutso, I would never do it that way..

[Pancho]

I like Shotgun Willie's idea of the Sholfield break down. 44 cal. with a 3" barrel.

[Timthinker]

Macmac, do not underestimate anything in .69 caliber!:eek: If I am not mistaken, .69 caliber is larger than the bore diameter of a 20 gauge shotgun. Again, what we are discussing is impractical, but not ineffective. Your .69 caliber slug would make a nastier hole than a .38 slug. By the way, I would not want to challenge a man with two drawn horse pistols. Doing so seems like suicide to me.

I do understand the thrust of your argument and I agree with it in large measure. I hope my comments clearify my position. Good luck with those horse pistols.:D


Timthinker

[Shotgun Willy]

I had another thought on this. If someone wanted to retrofit existing cylinders with piezoelectric crystal systems, that would screw in where the nipples screw in, would that work? Or do p.e. crystals not generate enough power, when struck, to create enough spark?

[StrawHat]

I probably do not understand the premise.

Are you trying to redesign a black powder gun for today or trying to picture what was considered a SD gun then?

A double twelve would do a good job.

Or maybe something like this.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/ItalianSnubbyStagGrips002Small.jpg

[sundance44s]

It would be pretty cool to use black powder , But the courts may frown upon you when someone tells how you not only killed the badguy but your shot set the guys clothes on fire ..and you had this BIG grin on your face !

[Mike OTDP]

I figure that a modern percussion revolver would look a lot like a S&W L or N-frame revolver. There would be a big debate...some designers would go with a frame-mounted loading lever like a Colt or Remington, others would have a loading tool for the cylinders and sell spare cylinders. With those guns, reloading would consist of opening the gun, pulling the old cylinder, dropping in a spare cylinder, and closing the gun.

Caps would be held on by some sort of a backplate

[Pancho]

Strawhat, didn't the Mormon's have a name for that pistol something like Avenging Angel? I like the optimism of those front sights.

[1858remington]

How about this:

a double action only, no hammer to snag clothes.

5 to 6 shot revolver with electric ignition.

Break top, for quick cylinder change, in a 3 inch barrel.

In .36 or .44 cal., maybe even a .50cal:D

Made with modern metals, possibly air weight.

Something like this might be a possibility in the future. What with all the laws they keep tryin to pass to take cartridge guns from us.

If it was offered, I'd be the first in line to buy one.

[sundance44s]

I`ve got an old Remmie I was thinking of a rainy day project ..like the one at the bottom of this page ..a nice little 45 bulldog carry pistol ..http://www.riverjunction.com/kirst/konverteracc.html

[MikeJackmin]

With modern metals, there's no overriding reason why you could not make a muzzleloading, BP version of your favorite modern self-defense revolver. It would require some significant changes to keep it from gumming up too quickly and it might be a bear to reload, but you could do it.

If 'rapid' reloads are necessary, the breaktop idea seems hard to beat; if not, the biggest challenge would be to provide for sufficient power in a small package. BP is low-pressure stuff, so you'd have to go with a big bore and at least a modest barrel length. This would limit you to twin-barrel derringers and five-shot revolvers, I guess.

Given all that, I'll take a round-butt, three-inch, 45 caliber, five-shot scofield-looking thing in a shoulder rig, and an O/U .36 derringer as a BUG. A brace of external hammer, SxS 12 gauges will have to do for the bedside.

[StrawHat]

"Strawhat, didn't the Mormon's have a name for that pistol something like Avenging Angel? " Pancho

I am aware of the use of this style by the Mormons "security" people. The group itself was known as the Avenging Angels. I am not aware of the revolver itself being referred to as such. Possible though.

It was not an uncommon conversion and many examples have been shown in collections.

It was used by lawmen and lawbreakers alike (when you could tell the difference). Dallas Stoudenmire and the man who murdered him both carried similar conversions, one converted to the 44 Colt cartridge and the other still a cap and ball, if I remember correctly.

"I like the optimism of those front sights." Pancho

That sight was originally for a rifle I would have built. It was fit to the revolver and has been filed some since the photo was taken. Next trip to the range will see it dialed in a bit more. But it certainly does catch the eye for point shooting techniques!

[Pancho]

StrawHat, Did you solder it in place?

[1858remington]

It would be cool to build one in 50 cal that could use the same Maxi ball ammo you use for deer. :evil:

That would help with the pressure, due to just the bullet to barrel contact.

Probably would kick like a mule, but down range would deliver more than enough stopping power.

My remmies use 25 to 30 grains. the 50 would be cool with a 40 to 50 grain charge. Hand cannon.:D

I wish i was a gunsmith.:banghead:

[DuncanSA]

Come on, lets be serious. I enjoy shooting BP weapons in all shapes and forms but for self defence you are simply not going to come anywhere near modern handguns with nitro ammo.

[jason10mm]

What about the "modern" black powder? Aren't they in pellet form now? So you could have a semi-rapid reloader where you drop in the powder pellet, chase it with the ball, and the cylinder is then sealed so no wadding is necessary and the powder would stay protected from the elements for a decent length of time. Look like a revolver with a shroud over the cylind
fer, or maybe a pepperbox style multibarrel pistol.

Heck, I wonder if the Metal Storm concept would work. Load the barrels with a series of rounds. Technically it is a muzzle loader :)

[sundance44s]

Maybe attach the ball/bullet to a pyrodex pellet ...that would be like the future world modern bullets I saw on the history channel the otherday ..they were caseless modern bullets that were stacked in a barrel and fired one at a time with an electro fireing gismo .

[Macmac]

What is that ft blade site for? A house fly could land on it I guess.. geeze.. A gun like that needs no sights at all.. You can't miss with yer knuckes touching the DOOMed guys paunch!

Well yeah .69 cal was once common. Just a bit to small to fit 0.715 ball. I have never head of this .69 in gauge, and I have no bore gauge on hand just now, but my guess it is would be about 13 to 14 ga.. Based on 12 ga is apx 0.712 or so..

To me selfdefence means you have a real need to stop a very bad guy, and to me then there is no room for old hoss pistols.

if I were to pull that off as a stunt, first it is a very poor choice of stunts.

next I would have something modern stuffed in my belt, but the stunt could cost time and that could cost my own life for no more than a stunt.

I beleive it is just as illegal to brandish 2 big ol hoss pistols as it is to wave anything else around when you don't mean it.

So maybe while the idea seems fun, the real action isn't going to get you anywhere....................

except maybe under the idea of you fought with modern, and ran out of ammo, and way back in the bed room them old hoss pistols were the last resort to breaking chairs over the bad guys head...

Now on the other hand if I was a bad guy and someone already scared popped open the door with 2 big ol hoss pistols, I would be leavin a back trail not so very hard to follow, but I don't play at being a bad guy much, execpt for passin wind under the covers at night which makes my wife gasp like trout out of water!


And since BP is so out of date no court would look upon this as real self defence, and you would get a very bad day in court. The authorites would have lots of fun, making sure you were marked for life as a wacko, just because the weapon system was so strange to most modern man..

The only place to me this idea could be remotely valid is at a camp Voos..

Some wild and pre planned, and staged, written snaffu made to look real for public viewing.

I love the idea, but the reality is such that it can never be.

Perhaps one more look..

I suppose if you are other wise a law abiding citizen, but never owned any sort of cnter fire weapon ever in your whole life and still somehow had a small collection of BP Guns, maybe, just maybe under a real life serious lethal threat and to save your life used a BP Gun in this instant because there was no other common choice, you might pull it off in a court of law.

i would have my doubts the criteria can be met..

I live for dreams, and at times make certain dreams come as true as I can, even for others, but this dream I just can't see. The errors add up to to much cost in terms of life to me.

[Misfire99]

I think to satisfy the premise of the thread one would encase the cap in some sort of shell that also held the powder and ball. Then these would be brought into battery either by a rotating cylinder or having the shell brought into a chamber. And gee I think this is exactly what a modern gun looks like. And there is a reason for that. Modern guns were made from the lessons learned from BP guns. The only real change from a modern gun and a BP gun is the BP. Smokeless powder is really all that has changed. But this change allowed many things to improve. Such as velocity of the fired ball. But this increased pressure so advances in metallurgy were needed. But the fact remains modern guns are derived from black powder guns.

[Timthinker]

Strawhat, you really did understand the premise. This "intellectual exercise" involves redesigning a BP revolver for modern times. Yes, this is impractical. I have stated this previously. But I am curious what our posters think such a gun might look like.

For me, such a gun would feature a closed frame with a double-action. I would chamber it for .45 caliber bullets and include a loading lever underneath the barrel. Obviously, the lockwork and springs would resemble those found on modern revolvers.

Macmac, I have read numerous threads in recent years where some individuals have purchased BP firearms for self-defense. While I agree that much better choices are available, I realize BP firearms can wound and kill just as surely as they did in centuries past. Would I chose such a weapon as my primary self-defense firearm? No. But I do believe that it could suffice under the right circumstances.


Timthinker

[sundance44s]

The one thing I`ve always liked about the 1858 Remmington ..take away the loading lever and the design is timeless .

[Ed Ames]

You could make a rather nice non-breachloading auto pistol that would handle about like a glock if you wanted to.

Why bother though? If you want to make a modern muzzle loading defensive gun think in terms of home/building defense. You could make a rather nice full-auto swivel mount rifle that would be far more interesting. My design is to have a steel bar with chambers bored from one side and nipples on the other, when loaded you might have 100+ 50cal bullets on a 2 or 3 foot long bar. Drop the bar into a slot on the back of the gun and

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG CLATTER as the bar drops through. Drop another bar in... the hammer would just slide along the back of the bar or spin, the rate of fire could be controlled with a roller to slow the bar's fall through the gun, the trigger would actually be a block to stop the bar from falling which you release.

You could even make a loading machine... pass one of the bars through and it would charge each chamber, insert a bullet, and install a cap. Maybe skip caps and go to standard primers which would allow you to go to a more modern chamber shape and smaller diameter bullets. Use a "nipple" that was a threaded breach plug with a primer cup that, once fitted, may even be welded in place.

50 bars (of 100 chambers each), a loading machine, and a swivel gun designed to feed the bars would be expensive but what does a 50cal machine gun go for these days? I bet I could beat the price by a fair margin and provide a very suitable perimeter defense solution perfect for every survival need. :D

Anyone want to go into business?

[Macmac]

Ok I'll bite.. First of all this pice has to be dish washer safe! No wood and no parts that a hot dish washer soap, rinse, and blow dry will create can have any effect, so cleaning is so simple a child can do it and can't fail.

All the moving parts shall be coated in teflon, so no liquid lubes are needed.

Since it is limited to BP and synthetic BP powders it must shoot a ball diameter of no less than 38 calibur and no larger than 50 cal.

The diameter isn't or doesn't have to be the bullet diameter, so it could be a sabot bullet lesser than bore diameter.

Since it is dedicated to self defence at with in reasonable limits means 21 feet and less, it needs nealy no sights and mine would have none.

Instead it would have laser grips, but totally water proof.

To get effective loads the clyinder on my which is a wheel gun would be bases on the .41 cal snake charmer, so it would have a long cylinder for no less than 50 grains capcity, and would handle with ease FFFFg (4F) powders for the most pressure possible. The metalurgy would exceed that of the Casuyl (sp).454. Fully loaded at the cylinder it would hold 5 ready to go charges.

In addition there would be a wide spectrum of projectile choices, from shot to mulitple solid wafers besides sabot and bore sized slugs and round ball.

Inside the grip would be a few mechanisms, that loaded at least 5 charges after the cylinder was shot empty, and also cap these 5 extra charges so once the weapon was loaded, it would self load 5 more times, with out doing anything more than pulling the trigger to fire.

This inner grip area would seal 110% safe proof, with no chance of a spark getting in the grip.

These mechanisims would be made of high denstiy fully machinable plastics, as levers, linkage, springs, and screws that move the powder, projectile, and caps in to the clyinder.

The filler caps would self retain like a chain saw gas cap, so when cleaning in the dish washer all you would do is unscrew the cap and let it dangle.

To load it you would drop in the rounds, the powder and the caps and cock the piece 5 times, and then added enough to make 5 more full rounds.

After the first shot the empty bore would self load in stages just like making pistol ammo on a press loader, except there is no primer to punch out.

The barrel would be 1.5 inchs long and have aggressive fast twist rifling.

Recoil would not exceed that of a common .357 MAX, and better would mimic the new .327 just out.

In the grip slabs would be a very sharp double edged mini knife, with a bottle cap flipper for kicks and grins since this isn't gonna be real, and on the other grip you get a instant match stick that is nuclear. Hey why not?

Probably the frame is made of titainium to keep it light.
It would pass both kali and Mass law and have no safety.

It will not explode if you run it over with a train.

The grips would be heat sensitive and know if the shooter was under duress, and a little gyro embbeded in the frame would steady real shakey hands.

The heat device would have a safe off mode for target work.

It would have ability to test skin for higher than legal levels of liquid libations, but still be smart enough to function under duress.

Ok so now everyone can have a good hearty laff on ol' Mac :neener:

[Ed Ames]

Why use black (and substitute black) powder Mac?

It's a touchy subject around here but it's perfectly possible to make a muzzle loader or cap&ball gun that is designed for smokeless powder. At one point someone was coverting NAA Companion revolvers to use pistol primers instead of caps. IIRC they were doing (or at least claiming to do) 30cal three-shot conversions of the NAA .22 designed for smokeless powder. Sadly that company turned out to also rip people off but that doesn't make the idea bad. Savage made/makes a muzzle loading rifle designed for smokeless as well.

[Macmac]

This is the title... A Modern BP Self-Defense Revolver

read back to see my disclaimers and opinions..

I finally decided to try to play...

I can't see the design in my head exactly, and I have big doubts this would be remotely practical now or ever, but a few of the ideas might be nice.

[Timthinker]

Once upon a time, a college instructor told me he loved to witness minds at work. I suppose this was his way of indirectly gauging intelligence. That quote popped into my mind as I reread the postings to this thread. We really have some insightful and talented folks here. Some of the suggestions to the impractical idea of building a modern BP self-defense revolver sound very plausible. At the very least, I am impressed. Keep up the good work.


Timthinker

[Evil One]

Modern self defense BP revolver...
Taurus Titanium Tracker in .45
Stainless cylinder for black powder and modified to use 209 shotgun primers and with a quick remove cyl.
Night sights and laser grips.


Evil

[Pancho]

I like Shotgun willie's idea of the piezoelectric nipples. It's quite plausible. Consider the igniter on your grill, most of the mechanism replicates the pistol's hammer to strike the crystal and the charge wouldn't have travel about 6" of wire to the electrode.

[DixieTexian]

I would make it some sort of electric ignition so that you wouldn't need caps. The cylinder would swing out, and you would load paper cartridges in through the rear of the cylinder. These paper cartridges would be made of thick paper with the back flat. Wheh you cock the hammer to put a chamber in to battery, the rotation of the cylinder would cut the back of that one chamber off, so that the firing mechanism could get to the powder. The outside of the paper would be fire resistant, but it would burn from the inside so that little if any paper is left after firing the round. It would have a heavy payload, and tritrium sites. I believe that sites are important for self defense unless you are in extremely close quarters, so they would be included, but easily removed for those who don't like them. There would be an option for laser grips. I don't like them, but it is a way to tack dollars onto the price. It would have a case hardened fram and browned barrel, just so it looks different.

[1858remington]

I cant remember but I think winchester made a lever action pistol using a caseless rocket typr bullet. That gun failed because the bullets were weak in power.

BUT WE HAVE PYRODEX PELLETS!!!!

A Lever pistol using a caseless bullet/pyrodex pellet combo with the pellet attached to the projectile.

combine that with electric ignition.

and you'd have a rapid fire defence pistol with plenty of power.:D

[DuncanSA]

I go along with Macmac. The BP revolvers we all use and love were cutting edge in their day. If I have to sort out a BG in the night situation however I want something more consistently reliable. Also, indoors which is what this post is about, you not want to be blinded by the smoke cloud from your own weapon.

[Pancho]

1858remington, the lever pistol you're thinking about was called the Volcanic. It was Winchester's first attempt at gun producing. Before that Winchester owned a shirt company. And your memory serves you well the projectile was like a minie ball with the hollow being filled with powder.

[1858remington]

so we remake the volcanic.

the pyrodex pellets have a hole down their center, so if the projectile had a tale to fit in the hole they would stay together like a cartridge.

I've seen some sabots for 50cal with a tail for just such a purpose.

[mountaindrew]

Why do we need a break top? Why not just a swing out crane where the cylinder was not blocked from sliding off to the rear? Reloading would be done exactly like on a hand ejector style S&W, i.e. swing out the crane/cylinder, push an ejector rod that would pop out the cylinder, drop a new cylinder onto the crane and close, fire, repeat. Jerry Miculek could do reloads that would put autoloaders to shame, and it would be with a muzzle loader!

[theblackmeow]

Ruger made (has discontinued) a BP revolver called the Old Army. Short of adding a swing out crane for the cylinder (to facilitate swapping of loaded cylinders for empties), it is as modern as a BP revolver can be. Uses coil spring internals instead of leaf style springs. If someone has one they don't want any more & want to sell cheap (I'm poor, sorry!) I'm your guy.:cool:
BTW, I just registered & you all have a great group of BP aficionados posting here.

[Timthinker]

Welcome to the forums, Blackmeow. We have discussed the Old Army many, many times here. You might wish to use the serach function to research this gun or any other topic that comes to mind. Good luck with your search for a ROA.


Timthinker

[hamourkiller]

This would make a dandy self defense BP pistol

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/HamourKiller/IMG_1703.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/HamourKiller/IMG_1701.jpg

Buck and ball down each bore would work!

[coinshooter]

You can still find a few Ruger old army in 45. and then buy a conversion cylinder and shoot 45lc. .

[Im283]

TBM said

If someone has one they don't want any more & want to sell cheap (I'm poor, sorry!) I'm your guy.

Welcome to the forum, but get in line for that Ruger, your at least behind me:D

[Macmac]

I have a ROA that i bought in 1972 used lightly.. it would kill you guys if i said what i paid for it then...

Would I use that for ccw? no way.. Would I use that for a home defence weapon? No way..

To my thinking as I have stated BP isn't going to come back for defence, but if some how it did a 10 shot would be about my minimum..

With modern guns there is too much bling to suit me. I want basics in a CCW gun and or home defence.

The difference there to me is a ccw weapon means you can carry it concealed with out getting winks from every woman around in 50 miles. CCW means CCW.

Home defence can be a 12 ga shot gun in pump, semi auto and doubles, and is a far cry from ccw.

As of late I have decided for just me thaT A SEMI AUTO WITH A CASE OR 2 LEFT behind is too much tale left behind.

(I hit caps in error sorry)

So a BP defence gun has to have some sort of advantage over any other modern brass catridge gun, or it won't matter much. What is the advantage?

My best guess is atleast 10 shots and no brass. A slug that isn't easy to trace. That means not store bought.

The why, is because these days in a case where you meet legal criteria for self defence you pay out 50,000 bucko's no problem, no matter what the records show about that bad guy.

I know this isn't exactly legal, but all in all, why say more than you must say. Bullets and cases say alot, with out any words from you.

The intent is to stop a bad guy from what ever it is that is the lethal threat.

You don't want to kill him, you just want to stop him when otherwise he won't stop.

The courts don't like weird stuff, and the courts are not going to like any BP guns at all.

With a modern and typical CCW gun if you have the wrong kind of ammo by some trade name, that is all it takes to get you a life time pass in a room with light green paint. If you cast target rounds, and happen to have these in that gun you get the same treatment in the courts.

Like I said a great big pair of hoss pistols with atleast a .62 bore would be fun to dream about stopping a bad guy at the door, one who gets his pants all wet, and runs away, but bad guys aren't like that much. They come back if they are not stopped.

With a pair of big hoss pistols and a soap box you just might have it made, but then it is in yer dreams.

[Timthinker]

Hamourkiller, that is a beautiful pistol. If I am not mistaken, Dixie Gun Works sells that identical gun. Could you provide some more info about it?


Timthinker

[hamourkiller]

Yes Timthinker, that is what the gun pictured is. It is a remake of the Old British Elephant pistols called Howdah pistols. Made for shooting tigers as they tried to get up to you on the elephant!

20 Ga smooth bore .62 cal caplock. Roundball will weigh aprox. 340grs.

It is a beauty and I am fighting off buying one but fear it is a loosing battle!

Pedersoli makes it.

[Pancho]

For those who think that a muzzleloader for selfdefense or home defense is stupid. Think about our brothers across the pond who can only easily own muzzleloaders. If I lived in France for instance I would definitely have more than one loaded and primed revolver(hammer on the empty chamber) in the house.

[Im283]

removed cause I contributed to this being off topic, my apologies.

[Ed Ames]

OK, this seems to be drifting slightly towards fantasy. Let's introduce a touch of reality for a moment.

Black powder/muzzle loading firearms are used for self defense all the time in the USA. There are a lot of loaded and capped muzzle loaders hanging on walls or in closets around the country. Rifles, pistols, revolvers... they are out there in vast numbers and they are used as originally intended. The use of a muzzleloader will cause no special legal attention *unless* you are statutorially barred from firearms ownership. The fact that you used a muzzleloader will not spare you any attention either of course. You will receive attention if you use any weapon.

The problem with antiques (in the legal sense) is not effectiveness. The problem is not that prosecutors will reveal the secret anti-muzzleloading-as-self-defense-weapons statutes that only they know about and send you to prison for an extra extra long time. The problem isn't even capacity or reloadability... a lemat spins 9 42-caliber (about the same as .44 magnum) rounds around a central 16ga smoothbore barrel. I'd take that over 8 rounds out of a 1911 any day.

The problem is reliability with modern caps. Replace the nipples with holders for large pistol primers, or get decent quality caps, or do whatever is needed to prevent cap jams and the like, and you have an effective firearm by any standard....

[Pancho]

Thinking on a global scale, we Americans are ,I think, unique in the world in our fighting for and maintaining the right to protect ourselves with firearms. You can bet that if I lived in a country that would not let me own a modern pistol that I would own and have loaded at least one cap and ball revolver. You can also bet that I would have shot that gun enough to know what makes it reliable ie. proper powder cap and ball. Not to really know your self defense weapon no matter what it is is just plain stupidity. And yet I know there are many people in the U.S. that have never fired a gun that go out and by a gun and a box of ammo load it and stick it in a drawer hoping that they'll remember how to use it in an emergency at 2 a.m. with adrenaline flowing. Under the typical emergency conditions I'd be surprised if they remember where they put it.
Last month I was at a gun store when a young women walked up to the counter guy with a request for a home defense revolver saying that she was alone and not a shooter. It seems that her brother suggested a revolver for it's simplicity. The salesmen first showed her a used S&W 38 and then proceeded to try to bump her up to a 9mm Glock Auto. I was PISSED at that salesman. I took the lady aside and told her to, under no circumstances, to buy the Glock. The revolver was best for her. The sales guy was miffed at me and I could have given a flamin fiddlers fig if he was. In fact I later called the store and asked for the manager and told him about it. The dude should have been reamed at least and fired at most.

[Pancho]

To add a finer point to my point. Most of the problems we read about on this forum are newbies getting familiar with their guns. Once they shoot them and learn what the muzzleloader needs to be reliable we don't hear them gripe about it.
OK, I'm done lecture over.

[Timthinker]

I would like to reiterate a point I have made about BP firearms and self-defense. Yes, modern cartridge firearms are preferable for a variety of reasons that have been discussed here and elsewhere. Yes, I prefer a modern firearm to a caplock design. Having made these points, I also need to say that BP firearms will kill. If for some reason this obvious point seem ridiculous, then examine the Howdah pistol that was designed for defense against tigers. I have a difficult time believing that it is not a fearsome weapon.

The original purpose of this thread was not to encourage people to purchase BP firearms instead of modern ones for self-defense. I can not make that point any clearer. Rather, this thread is a "think piece", a conceptual exercise about how a modern BP self-defense gun might look. That is all I have attempted. Hopefully, this disclaimer will put the issue to rest.


Timthinker

[Vermonter]

I think it'd be cool to make something like the Howdah, but with 4 barrels. Electric ignition. 1000 lumen light. Can't legally own a normal shotgun that short.

[Ed Ames]

It would be cool... but do you need all those barrels w/ electric ignition?

If I was going electric, here's what I would do....

Attach a low sensitivity microphone to the barrel assembly near the recoil lug (where it can't be seen unless the gun is disassembled) and drill/tap holes every half inch or so from the breach plug forward to the front of the stock. Each of the holes would have an ignition plug that was designed to withstand chamber pressure. The stock would cover the holes so that, when assembled, you couldn't tell that there was anything "untraditional" about the gun.

When you pull the trigger, the ignition plugs are fired in sequence from muzzle towards breach until the microphone triggers. If the microphone triggers, the next trigger pull will start the sweep from one plug breachward of the last successfull ignition.

Why?

Load powder, wad, ball, waxed/greased wad, powder, wad, ball, waxed wad, powder, wad, ball, waxed wad, powder, wad, ball....

Pull the trigger... ignition sweep in until it hits the muzzlemost powder *BANG* the microphone triggers to stop the sweep, leaving the gun loaded with:

Powder, wad, ball, waxed wad, powder, wad, ball, waxed wad, powder, wad, ball, waxed wad...

Pull the trigger again? Swee*BANG* and you have:

Powder, wad, ball, waxed wad, powder, wad, ball, waxed wad...

Two barrels would give you 8-10 shots depending on how tightly you packed the balls together.

Chain fire? Bangbangbang and the sweep might take a fraction longer next trigger pull. Mic didn't detect the blast? You get a double tap....

Why not?

[zxcvbob]

I really like Ed's idea of the swivel gun.

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG CLATTER

Would you really want it full-auto? How about a crank like on a Gatling gun or one of those converted M1919?

[DuncanSA]

Granting this is an imaginary exercise, most proposals seem to favour heavy, often multibarreled weapons. Lets do a bit of lateral thinking here, we are not planning on fighting WW3 with it. What we want is a lightweight easily accessible weapon that is capable of sorting out BGs at short range.
How about a modern smaller equivalent of the Le Mat - made in modern aluminum hard alloy able to handle BP pressures. We can also leave out the central shotgun barrel and instead make all chambers to fire AAA or similar heavy shot. This of course mean a smooth bore barrel and a probable reduction of cylinders to 6 rather than 9.

[DixieTexian]

How about a modern smaller equivalent of the Le Mat - made in modern aluminum hard alloy able to handle BP pressures. We can also leave out the central shotgun barrel and instead make all chambers to fire AAA or similar heavy shot. This of course mean a smooth bore barrel and a probable reduction of cylinders to 6 rather than 9.

If you take away the shotgun barrel and 3 of the chambers, how is it anything like a LeMat?

[DuncanSA]

OK. Lets call it a "Le Mat memorial". This is after all a fantasy exercise!

[1858remington]

we could go with a LeMat style revolver,

but to make it more tactiCOOL, :D

have the cylinder rotate around a flashlight/laser combo, instead of the shot barrel.

that way your ready for low light situations.

[Ed Ames]

Modernized LeMat ... err... LeAmes...

20ga barrel as the cylinder pin in a double-action top-break (similar to Webley) frame. 20ga barrel has a screw-in breach plug w/ 209 primer pocket. .45cal barrel is set above the 20ga barrel.

Frame uses a transfer bar safety w/ two firing pins set in the frame. In normal operation only the upper firing pin is transferred to by the bar. Push a lever/button on the side and a second transfer bar extends out for the lower (shot barrel) firing pin, pushing the normal transfer bar to the side and deactivating the upper firing pin for that shot.

Cylinder is donut shaped and slides over the center pin/shot barrel when the action is open. An ejection system pushes the cylinder back when the action opens to make swapping cylinders easier. The ejection system pushes only on the innermost part of the cylinder.

C&B cylinders are loaded outside the gun. Cylinders are set up for 209 shotshells as primers.

Load the shot barrel, open the topstrap and thumb a primer into the central primer pocket. Drop a primed cylinder onto the cylinder pin. Close the action... you have 9+1 (or so) shots available. Fire off your nine, hit the lever to break the action... old cylinder drops away... slap another on... close and keep firing....SNAKE! swing the gun down, push with your thumb, squeeze the shot off *BOOM* swing back up, ease off with your thumb, squeeze another shot off *BAM*... hit the break lever, slap another cylinder on...

Don't like the cylinder reloading headache? Enter the conversion cylinder.

Because the ejection system only pushes against the center of the cylinder, you can put a cylinder which is bored to accept .45 colt or similar with a normal ejection system. A circlip around the "cylinder pin" holds the cylinder in place so the ejector can work. Now you have 9 rounds of .45 colt + one legal 20ga shotgun barrel.

I bet it could even be sold as a cartridge gun... the presence of a muzzle loading barrel shouldn't make it an AOW.

[AntiqueCollector]

I'd also had a little push button flip out bayonet...

[Evil One]

And a corkscrew...


Evil

[Macmac]

I can see the cork screw to pull that bad ass's eyeballs out, but bring a switch blade to a gun fight?

I can tell everyone in on this post is grinning ear to ear. I just hope no one really gets the idea this is ok for in real life as intened, and I do believe you will find you are under gunned and won't like it one bit.

I kinda like that big double too, and brace of those would be nice if **** stained steps was the ideal stop.

I hate using a word like that here but it has impact. I guess if we are day dreaming about stopping bad guys once and for all the sin should be acceptable.

[Ed Ames]

If, after 9 .45 call balls and a mess of shot, you still need a corkscrew to open a bottle you are probably way past your limit.

Out of curiosity.... why do you think someone with 9 209-primed rounds of .45 with somewhere around 35gr of black powder (unless you wanted to tighten up that primer pocket in which case you could shrink it to maybe 10-20 grains of smokeless with a 250ish gr bullet) plus a 20ga barrel firing 9 or so 00 balls would be under gunned compared to... well... pretty much anyone?


The bayonet would add a nice webleyesque touch...

http://www.cybershooters.org/Royal%20Armoury/Webley.JPG