Is Savage poised to take over Remington's


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R.W.Dale
February 12, 2008, 12:20 PM
IS Savage poised to take over Remington's top spot in the world of precision bolt actions, tacticool and otherwise? I don't know about you but I've noticed the aftermarket support for the savage platform across the board has shot through the roof over the past couple years. Just recently Shilen started offering pre fit savage barrels and so far demand has been so high that they've had to add a second shift and are still running a 6 month lead time.

Everywhere I look nowadays it seems as though everybody has some sort of semi Custom savage project on the front burner. I attribute this to the fact that just about anything you could wish to do to a Rem700 requires a gunsmith VS being able to do everything to a Savage on your kitchen table. Sorta the same reason AR's are so popular MODULARITY.So then I'm left wondering what does a rem700 do better than a Savage........................nothing comes to mind

From a financial stand point all the KEWL design characteristics that make a Savage a DIYer's dream also makes them much cheaper to produce leaving big green in kind of a pickle. They need to cut costs to stay competitive in todays market (think $275 stevens) yet any changes to the 700 platform will result in a "new Coke" style rejection.:cuss:

So what say YE? is the Savage 10/110 the Remington 700 for the new century? Or is it an also ran upstart.

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2TransAms
February 12, 2008, 12:30 PM
So then I'm left wondering what does a rem700 do better than a Savage........................nothing comes to mind.My Savage 10FP is as accurate as any Remington I've ever fired...cheaper too.

There are currently tons of aftermarket accessories for the 700,because the 700 is the king of the hill right now. That may be larglely due to the availability of 700's across the spectrum of hyper-tactical shadow-ops snipers to budget Walmart hunting rifles.

The Savage is for po' folks like me. I got the 10FP,put a stock from a BVSS on it,and called it good. (Btw,there are way more stocks available for Remingtons.) Nothing fancy,no upgrades,just a solid,accurate rifle with a great trigger from the factory. Speaking of which.......yet any changes to the 700 platform will result in a "new Coke" style rejection.Wasn't the X-Trigger Remington's way of competing with the popularity of the Accu-Trigger? Some people love it,and some people hate it.

RevolverMan567
February 12, 2008, 12:32 PM
I dont think remington has anything to worry about from savage, both fine guns but each has their market, remington has remington customers and savage has the rest.

Cron
February 12, 2008, 12:32 PM
Hmmmm. If the Savage is so great, how come everybodys ordering the Shilen barrels? :D

Seriously, Savages are ugly and have terrible fitting/feeling stocks. At least I have some pride of ownership with the Remington.

ArmedBear
February 12, 2008, 12:34 PM
You're probably on to something.

The 700 was introduced at a point in history. It hasn't always existed or anything, and there's nothing magical about it. If a better option comes along, it will prevail.

Remington's ever-higher prices sure aren't helping, either.

remington has remington customers and savage has the rest.

I really wonder how long their name will be worth much. A lot of Remington customers haven't tried anything else. Custom builders tend to be well-informed.

skinewmexico
February 12, 2008, 12:40 PM
My Savage was great, and I ordered a Shilen barrel so I could have a 6.5X47 Lapua, so there, Mr. Smarty Pants. I have 5-6 Savages in obscure calibers, that you can't get in a Remington, and I didn't have to pay some gunsmith a ton to build. And even the ugly stocks shoot great, I'll take function over form, and substance over style any day. It's all about the holes downrange today, not the reputation of a company 35 years ago.

ckay
February 12, 2008, 12:45 PM
Hmmmm. If the Savage is so great, how come everybodys ordering the Shilen barrels?
For the same reason people are putting Noveskes on their AR-15 that they'll put 200 rounds through a year.

texastony
February 12, 2008, 12:45 PM
My wife has the Savage 16 WW in .308 with the accutrigger.
Her first hunting rifle. She is a friggin pro with it. I like it, but too lite for me. The trigger is AMAZING. Makes my M70 trigger feel like a sponge.
It does feel somewhat cheap with the composite stocks, but you get what you pay for, and she deffinately got more bang for her buck than I got for my 70. She likes hers more than mine. Whatever you shoot well is what counts.

I've never owned a Remmy. I won't say I never will, I just never held one that said "TAKE ME HOME NOW!!!", like all my other rifles.

ArmedBear
February 12, 2008, 12:45 PM
It's all about the holes downrange today, not the reputation of a company 35 years ago.

Sing it, brother!:D

(BTW who builds a serious custom rifle on a basic factory stock, anyway? Remington or Savage, it'll end up in the corner of the garage.)

R.W.Dale
February 12, 2008, 01:00 PM
If the Savage is so great, how come everybodys ordering the Shilen barrels?

OK order a Remington 700 with a Select Match 1-15" twist stainless bull barrel chambered for 7.62x39...........didn't think so.

Remember we're talking about rifles where accuracy is EVERYTHING. Not 2moa go shoot a buck in November 30-06 type guns

It's all about the holes downrange today, not the reputation of a company 35 years ago.

You pretty well summed up my OP! BRAVO

dr0
February 12, 2008, 01:50 PM
Interesting thread. I've never owned a Savage, but I might soon.

One thing I've heard in defense of the Remington is that it is a little sturdier.

I'm sorry I don't recall the place where I saw this discussed, but the point that was made was that the Remington had fewer small parts that were prone to failure. I believe the person saying this had seen a larger number of Savage failures in the course of long multi-day training at someplace like Gunsight or Thunder Ranch. Esentially this is heresay.

Do those of you with both credit this claim at all?

Detritus
February 12, 2008, 02:24 PM
Hmmmm. If the Savage is so great, how come everybodys ordering the Shilen barrels?

this wel covered already but to sum it up OPTIONS, with a savage, beyound the barrel itself, a caliber change requires a barrel nut wrench, headspace guage, and a little reading to learn how. and you can swap between calibers using the same bolt face in under 5 mins, include swapping bolt faces and you're at maybe 10 mins.

and not everyone is getting shilens either. some of the smiths that build customs on savage actions are selling the take off barrels, so a shooter might buy one complete rifle and 2 or 3 taken-off factory barrels in the other calibers they want to shoot.

Seriously, Savages are ugly and have terrible fitting/feeling stocks. At least I have some pride of ownership with the Remington.

trying to remember where is heard this but "three things to never insult, a man's wife, dog, or gun"

hmmmm yeah i guess some folks value looks over ability. not me

i'll answer to this by also answering what some were asking about, remington's answer to the Savage lineup is the 700 SPS line. they run around the same price as comparable Savages (that wretched 710 or whatever they renamed it after the re-design, was their answer to the stevens).
so ok for about the same price...
Both have rather middle of the road metal finish, stocks by bell&carlson that seem to be made of the same resin (same flexability issue), and both stocks are kinda ugly in their own way.
but
Savage all stocks pillar bedded
remington SPS No pillars, no bedding block
guess which is more stable (remember the SPS uses the same wimpy resin for stock as the savage, but no pillars)

i could go on and on but i doubt it'd do any good. comes down to
"how to make a highly accurate savage"= buy gun, start handloading and tailor your loads. maybe replace the stock for $200 or less if it bothers you.

"doing the above with a remington"= A.get a pre-built custom and pay as much for the gun as for your first car. B. buy off the rack 700, send to gunsmith for replacement trigger, blueprinting, maybe new stock depending on model, possibly a new barrel... oh wait we're up well over $1K at the minimum already and you haven't even fired round one to begin your load development....

everyone has their preferences, i like savage b/c they display out of the box accuaracy that allowed me to take a 12FV with a el-cheapo simmons target scope to an F-class shoot and keep up with some of the $3K+ custom jobs on the line.

32winspl
February 12, 2008, 02:39 PM
A couple of yrs ago, I bought a Rem 700 varmint synthetic 26" unfluted left hand 22-250 for about $650. It's accurate as heck with everything I've put through it so far. The trigger breaks clean "like a glass rod", a veery thick glass rod. Last fall, I shot a friend's Savage 26" fluted stainless .223 with the 2-piece trigger. It shot as well as mine, but the trigger was WONDERFUL. If or when I do it all over again, I'll prob go with the Savage, even tho I don't care for the looks of the fluted bbl, nor do I anticipate carrying one far enough or shoot fast enough to warrant the need for flutes (or whatever their reason for being).
Also, regardless of manufacturer, I wont buy a left hand bolt gun again (I am a lefty), as I'm more comfortable operating the bolt with my right hand, even while standing.

gunsnmoses
February 12, 2008, 02:46 PM
I'm curious

Can you really change out a savage barrel as a DIY job?
Does anyone keep more than 1 barrel for 1 savage and switch caliber back and forth?

R.W.Dale
February 12, 2008, 03:02 PM
Can you really change out a savage barrel as a DIY job?

YEP! all you really need is an special wrench, a vice and a headspace gauge.

Things you can change on a savage that requires a gunsmith for the Remington 700.

barrel

recoil lug

bolt handle

bolt face

A note on the bolt face. by swapping out bolt heads you can go from a .223 to a 300WSM and back again on the same action. With the Remington your gunsmith can open up the bolt face for larger cartridges but once done you can never go back.

cmidkiff
February 12, 2008, 03:05 PM
I have an old (pre-accutrigger) pencil barreled Savage in .22-250, made perhaps 20 years ago. It's a POS. Never been accurate, trigger sux... Never thought I'd buy another one.

About a year ago, I bought a 10fv in .204ruger, put a take-off BVSS stock on it for about $100, a Weaver KT15, and started working up some loads. This thing is a tack driver. Factory barrel, nothing done to the action, (I did put a benchrest single shot follower in it...) stock trigger... I love this rifle.

Picked up a 9317 (.17HMR) as a package deal, multi-color laminate stock, POS scope, heavy blue barrel. Tossed the simmons scope and replaced it with a Leopold 3-9x40. That's about all I've done with it, besides shoot it. This little rifle is about the most fun thing I can imagine, shooting at coin sized targets at 100 yards, clay pigeons laid out at 250... Great shooting rifle.

I can't imagine why you'd spend more on a Remington... I'm quite positive that my Savage .204 will shoot right along side rifles costing many times as much.

Ugly? Well, the barrel nut takes a little getting used to, I guess, but the advantages it gives for the home gunsmith are overwhelming!

I will say that the plastic stock they come with is absolute junk. If you're not planning on replacing it, spend a little more and get their factory laminate. I guess the plastic might be OK for a hunting rifle... it's light enough, anyway, but as a target rifle? You're never going to be happy with it.

cmb3366
February 12, 2008, 03:29 PM
Is Savage poised to take over the low end market? they already have. Will they ever take over the mid-high end hunting market, no, they're just too utilitarian and homely. Will they ever take over the extreme accuracy market, no, that sector is ruled by trued remington 700's, 40x's 722's, xp-100's, and more recently, dominated by custom actions such as Stolle, BAT, Neiska Bay, Stiller, Viper, Hall, and others..

Savage 110 derivatives make a fine entry level piece for target shooting, but the same things that make them great and affordable for an entry level shooter (barrel nut, accu-trigger, floating bolthead) become a liability when competing with smithed custom jobs, where the fixed bolthead mates perfectly with trued lugs, and the barrel is headspaced perfectly with well excecuted shoulder mating to a trued reciever ring, with trued threads, sporting a minimum-spec, tight, true chamber.

A Remington 700 can be made into a world class accuracy-orinented rifle, a Savage makes a fine local level, entry piece, and custom manufacurers make actions that outcompete trued 700's by giving the same accuracy potential, with greater resale values.

MCgunner
February 12, 2008, 03:31 PM
I'm a remington guy, though I have a savage. If savage takes 'em over, maybe they're finally get a 3 position safety out of the deal, at least, so long as a barrel nut doesn't go with it. :D

R.W.Dale
February 12, 2008, 03:48 PM
where the fixed bolthead mates perfectly with trued lugs, and the barrel is headspaced perfectly with well excecuted shoulder mating to a trued reciever ring, with trued threads, sporting a minimum-spec, tight, true chamber.

Why put that much trouble into maching on a 700 action what the aftermarket choices are vastly superior in every way/ if that kind of accuracy is your goal neither Savage or Remington is going to serve your needs with a factory action.

BUT other than the bolt head (which is debatable) if you desire you can do away with the barrel nut system and turn a shoulder on the bbl. There's no law saying you have to keep the barrel nut.

The Savage Barrel Nut--Advantages
Many gun builders will re-barrel a Savage without the barrel lock nut, by milling a shoulder on the barrel and mounting the barrel Remington-style. The only advantage to this is that it will let you fit a heavy-contour barrel with a diameter that is larger than the nut. The nut has several advantages, however. First the nut makes it much easier for the gun's owner to set headspace and switch barrels. Second, the barrel lock-nut provides a more solid thread joint and controls harmonics in a positive manner. I truly believe the barrel nut can enhance accuracy. In fact, I've made Remingtons shoot better by simply cutting back the shoulder and adding a nut.

read more here!
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek040.html

So again what does a Remington 700 do better?

dr0
February 12, 2008, 04:01 PM
Krochus - take a shot at addressing my post #11, please.

R.W.Dale
February 12, 2008, 04:09 PM
Krochus - take a shot at addressing my post #11, please.

I'm not buying it! any modern bolt action rifle Rem or Sav is about as reliable and robust as a cast iron skillet. I'm not saying that they don't break periodically but I have trouble believing that the .00276% failure rate is something to worry about. I'm literally more worried about being hit by a falling satellite than my bolt gun not functioning. It just strikes me as a NONissue

If what you posted were the case nobody would trust a semiautomatic with their life.

YodaVader
February 12, 2008, 04:14 PM
A lot of Remington customers haven't tried anything else

After reading stories of almost magical accuracy and the claims of outshooting custom match rifles costing thousands boasted by the Savage crowd I thought I might have to see for myself!

After owning four varmint/tactical style 700s I decided to try out a $599 (Aug 2006) Savage 12BVSS(.223) and unlike many here state , I find my Savage to be a nice looking rifle! Better looking than my current 700s - LTR and SPS.

The Accu-Trigger was very good for an out of the box rifle , I still had it replaced with a Sharp Shooter Supply unit. And the rifle can shoot really good groups. Unfortunately the barrel fouls so quickly I cannot get more than a few groups in a row. My 700LTR is consistently accurate for group after group and my best groups ever fired were with the 700.

Savage all stocks pillar bedded
remington SPS No pillars

True of the standard SPS and SPS Varmint but the SPS Tactical 700 does have a pillar bedded stock.
Still , the Savage pillar bedding is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. There is a small diameter flat top pillar mating with a rounded receiver. Looking at the contact impressions on top of the pillars of my 12BVSS it appears there is just a few thousandths contact. Some of those over at savageshooters forums even had the pillars below the bedding surface.

Can you really change out a savage barrel as a DIY job?

This is where Savage shines and one of the reasons I decided to try Savage. My 12BVSS will probably get something like a Lothar Walther Supermatch installed. Maybe sooner than later!

buy off the rack 700, send to gunsmith for replacement trigger, blueprinting, maybe new stock depending on model, possibly a new barrel... oh wait we're up well over $1K at the minimum already and you haven't even fired round one to begin your load development....

Bought a SPS at Dick's for $479 with $30 rebate , and a HS Precision stock from eBay for under $200. Not as pretty as my 12BVSS but shows every indication of shooting just as well , it's early on still , about 70 shots fired. Not nearly a grand spent and no trip to a gunsmith. If I had bought a 12FV or 10FP still would have spent the extra $200 for B&C Medalist and probably another SSS trigger.

Remington's ever-higher prices sure aren't helping, either.

No argument there , outside of the SPS series the 700s have risen in price dramatically. My local shop now has in more Savages than Remingtons. I asked why he did not carry many 700s and his reply was, "they are just too damn expensive!"

Seafarer12
February 12, 2008, 04:24 PM
I don't believe they are going to take remingtons spot just because remington makes a higher end gun. Savages are hard to argue with on the lower end market. I don't own one but have always liked them being a lefty. I mean they have the widest selection of leftys. If they would offer a heavy varmiter in a .243 in left hand I would probably have to think about getting one. I might get a 308 and just rebarrel it I don't know. Considering I just watched a lefty remington 788 go for 600 bucks on gunbroker I might have to let mine go and get something else.

green-grizzly
February 12, 2008, 04:35 PM
Unless they have changed recently, Savages are damned ugly. I hate to judge a book by its cover, but Savages just look cheap and cheezy. I acknoweldge that they are fine rifles, but they would sell more to shallow souls like myself if they looked like fine rifles.

Ash
February 12, 2008, 04:43 PM
Not looked at a 114 lately, it seems.

Ash

skinewmexico
February 12, 2008, 04:51 PM
It took me 20 minutes to put my 6.5X47 Lapua barrel on. I've also built a 223AI, a 6.5X55, and a 338-06. I haven't seen a Remington yet where $350 and 20 minutes gets me a match, stainless barrel in whatever caliber I want.

As far at the extreme accuracy market, well, Nesika, Surgeon, and Stolle have pretty much taken that over, I wouldn't call Remington competitive in that game anymore. As far as long distance, stock factory Savages were 3 of the top 5 at the F-Class nationals in F/TR. Not that shooting at 1000 yards is a good test of accuracy or anything.

R.W.Dale
February 12, 2008, 04:52 PM
COME ON! It's not like a synthetic stocked Remington is a stellar example of the finest quality fit and finish envied by riflesmiths worldwide.:rolleyes:

aubie515
February 12, 2008, 05:00 PM
Owning quite a few Savages in the past, I can say they build precision rifles. Now their actions on the other hand suck big time. Savage has addressed the "stock issue" and "trigger issue", but the action still sucks. When Savage can offer a smoother action, I might consider buying another one.

I don't have the action complaint on my 5R.

BTW, for those who try to compare prices and using apples to peanuts, should rethink things. I see people trying to compare the Savage 10FP with flimsy factory stock to a 700P, which is silly, IMO. If you compare the Savage McMillan stock to a Remington 700P, that would be a better comparison. The latter would be almost the same price point.

Frog48
February 12, 2008, 06:02 PM
I find it hard to believe that anybody will take over Remington's market share, simply because Remington has a huge brand loyalty following.

With that said, I love my Savage.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SigEpGrant/Outdoors/Firearms/Savage110.jpg

jmr40
February 12, 2008, 06:18 PM
When the Remington 700 was introduced Winchester was the king of rifles. Remington found a way to make a very competetive rifle cheaper at about the same time Winchester was changing to their post '64 rifles. Remington knocked them off the top spot. I guess what goes around, comes around.

Maybe I've had bad luck but I've had 3 Savages and the accuracy has been so-so at best. Not ready to give up yet.

dr0
February 12, 2008, 06:31 PM
Winchester really faded. Why? Well price. Over time their rifles became more and more expensive relative to the competitors. Finally they closed the factory.

Now they have reopened a new factory to make Model 70s. They only have about four models and four calibers, so it is a shadow of it's former self. I think Herstal decided the Browning name was just as good for selling guns. It's interesting that the Winchesters are all the "classic" action, three of the four are wood and blued, and are in the basic calibers like .30-06 and .270.

They strike me that they are almost turning the model 70 into the Single Action Army of rifles. Buy it for the heritage. Buy it for the nice wood.

They are about $1000 a piece list price. (And probably won't be discounted a lot for a while.) Strangely many Remingtons are now this price as well, or higher. Maybe history is repeating itself.

Ceemack
February 12, 2008, 07:26 PM
Savage may make inroads into Remington's market share, but I doubt the 700 will be going away any time soon. The 700 still has advantages over the Savage.

First, Savage barrels shoot pretty well but are very prone to copper fouling. I've just learned to live with a certain level of blue-green streaking in my bore; life is just too short to do all the cleaning that thing requires. A lot of shooters who replace the factory tube with an aftermarket barrel don't notice a big increase in accuracy, but have to spend a lot less time cleaning the bore (and believe the change was worth it). 700 barrels, as far as I know, are much smoother.

Sure, I could buy a replacement barrel and all the necessary tools and fix the problem. But that would put my total cost at a little more than the cost of a comparable 700. The other thing to keep in mind is that quite a few shooters don't want to go to the trouble of swapping out a barrel.

Second, my 10FP just doesn't feed all that smoothly. I get too many misfeeds for my taste. It's okay for a take-it-to-the-range rifle, but if I was part of a police or military unit I'd definitely go with a 700. For hunting, I might feel the same way.

The Savage is close, but it's not as good a rifle as the 700--and I'm saying this as a guy who owns a Savage but not a Remington. The Remington was just a little out of my price range when I bought my Savage. If I had it to do over again, and if I had the budget, I'd definitely take the Remington over the Savage.

dr0
February 12, 2008, 08:10 PM
Is the copper fowling you are seeing in a stainless or cromo barrel? It would seem unlikely BOTH variations would have that problem. I guess most accuracy shooters prefer stainless.

eliphalet
February 12, 2008, 09:02 PM
Next few years are gonna be interesting in the rifle arena, to many players or so it seems, it will be interesting to see if everyone is going to make it. Remington has gone downhill since Dupont sold the company and Savage has improved a lot lately. Remington now has new owners maybe things will change for the better, Savage is continuing to do a good job since their big shakeup a few years back.
BTW, Have any of you looked at the new Savage model 25?

PPGMD
February 12, 2008, 09:06 PM
Savage is right fully taking up some of Remington's market share, they have sat on their rear ends for a very long time.

But I highly doubt that Savage will take over they will get some market share, but Remington's have much much more after market support, that keeps it's market supported. You have people that Savagify (barrel nut), AIing (stock and new action), and Sakoing (extractor) their Remmys.

mule157
February 12, 2008, 09:38 PM
i like both and each have there own markets.... by the way price doesnt matter by the time i am finished with my savage project, it will have cost more than my last rem i bought.

cmb3366
February 12, 2008, 11:52 PM
Why put that much trouble into maching on a 700 action what the aftermarket choices are vastly superior in every way/ if that kind of accuracy is your goal neither Savage or Remington is going to serve your needs with a factory action.

BUT other than the bolt head (which is debatable) if you desire you can do away with the barrel nut system and turn a shoulder on the bbl. There's no law saying you have to keep the barrel nut.


Quote:
The Savage Barrel Nut--Advantages
Many gun builders will re-barrel a Savage without the barrel lock nut, by milling a shoulder on the barrel and mounting the barrel Remington-style. The only advantage to this is that it will let you fit a heavy-contour barrel with a diameter that is larger than the nut. The nut has several advantages, however. First the nut makes it much easier for the gun's owner to set headspace and switch barrels. Second, the barrel lock-nut provides a more solid thread joint and controls harmonics in a positive manner. I truly believe the barrel nut can enhance accuracy. In fact, I've made Remingtons shoot better by simply cutting back the shoulder and adding a nut.

read more here!
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek040.html

So again what does a Remington 700 do better?

______________________________________________________________________________________



With the custom actions available today, it makes more economic sence to buy a BAT or Stiller predator than it does to have a 700 completly gone through, particularly if you dont allready have a doner 700. But the fact remains the 700 CAN be brought up to even BR snuff, and it can win, and set records. The guy that allready owns a 700, and has outgrown it, can throw $600 at the action (bushed bolt, bushed fireing pin, Aluminum striker assembly, rebore raceways, square the face, square the lugs, square lug seats, clean or rethread, surface grind lug, 2oz trigger), a new barrel and some bedding/stock, and get a world class rifle. There is damn good reason NO custom action manufacturer uses a floating bolthead, its a self-limiting design. There's good reason benchresters who utilize switch barrel setups dont rely on barrel nuts. You can only take a Savage 110 so far, the sky's the limit with the 700 (not that it makes much $$$ sence anymore). If you've already got a well done, trued 700, there's no need to go custom, there's nothing to be gained.

Detritus
February 13, 2008, 12:07 AM
One thing I've heard in defense of the Remington is that it is a little sturdier.

I'm sorry I don't recall the place where I saw this discussed, but the point that was made was that the Remington had fewer small parts that were prone to failure. I believe the person saying this had seen a larger number of Savage failures in the course of long multi-day training at someplace like Gunsight or Thunder Ranch. Esentially this is heresay.

Do those of you with both credit this claim at all?

I beleive i know the thread/post you're thinking of. see if this sounds familiar

Group fo LE Sniper types going through a course of somesort to improve their skills. keep haing break downs or otherwise trouble with their LE model Savages.

later in the same thread it is revealed that the Officers in question had recently been forced by Dept. budget decision to switch to using the savages instead of SAKO TRG22s or similar european "uber-rifles" (thread i saw it wasn't rem700s).
the officers want their Uber-guns back and are actively TRYING to break the savages so they can say "see these are junk give us our old toys back!! :cuss:"
old military saying comes to mind, "given enough time and motivation you can destroy a bowling ball with a feather"

as has been mentioned, in not so many words, mechanically the savage has one remaining glaring fault, the bolt timing is HORRID!! now a Savage centerfire will NEVER be a slick as a remmy in the way of... not sure of the term here, "the front to back movement within the action" the 10/110 series action just isn't designed to allow minimizing the play between bolt and receiver.

what CAN be fixed is the "timing" of the bolt, which effects the stiffness of cocking the action, ie lifting the bolt handle. savage simply puts no more work into this aspect of the gun that it takes to make the action functional. also the interior design of the bolt makes corecting the timing a PITA, and i think the only 'smith currently doing it on a regular basis (or possibly at all) is Fred moreo of Sharpshooter supply.

R.W.Dale
February 14, 2008, 10:28 AM
Very interesting indeed. Thus so far nobody has manage to come up with one thing a Rem700 does better than the Savage 10-110 action. So far the only "advantages" listed have been things that can also be done to the savage action.

mule157
February 14, 2008, 10:39 AM
although i can buy a benchrest stock for my remington off the shelf lol.

R.W.Dale
February 14, 2008, 10:41 AM
although i can buy a benchrest stock for my remington off the shelf lol.

You could for the Savage as well if you hadn't ordered a three screw action!

But you know as well as I do that your LRPV will be way cooler when finished. Especially when you order a 30br barrel for it.


NOW GET TO WORK loser:neener:

Detritus
February 14, 2008, 10:48 PM
You could for the Savage as well if you hadn't ordered a three screw action!


doesn't the LRPV and the other three screw single shot types use the same spacing as the three-screw 10ML (muzzle Loader) actions? I know Richard's Microfit will make a laminate stock fo that... in fact there was a savage "three-screw Muzzle Loader" stock listed in the "Bargain list" over at the richard's sight earlier this week.

SpeedAKL
February 15, 2008, 12:22 AM
Savage builds a solid gun for the money. I've been looking for a nice, solid rifle to play with. The Remington 700 is a nice gun, lots of configuration/caliber choices and good build quality. The Savages don't have quite the build quality but undercut the Remmy in price and are apparently just as accurate. I like the adjustable trigger, too. Remington's lower-end guns, the 710 and 770, really didn't impress me, felt really cheap.

Given my expected financial state tho I'll probly just save up over the summer and spring for a 10FP or 700P since I'll mostly be using the gun for target shooting and hopefully trying some longer-distance stuff.

I like what Savage is doing with their products. Quality seems to keep getting better, and they are not afraid to innovate. Furthermore, there's no doubt that they make very accurate guns. All in all, they represent good buys.

dak0ta
February 15, 2008, 12:39 AM
Isn't the Savage Model 14/114 a really good deluxe rifle that rivals the Rem. 700's?

Lazuris
February 15, 2008, 12:45 AM
Now that Remington and Marlin are both owned by Cerberus Capital Management, the same company that bought out Chrysler last year, I have my resverations about the future of the company. Now don't get me wrong, i'm a big fan of Remington as well as private equity. However, the number one reason that companies like Cerberus buy companies is to make money. Now its important that all companies want to make money, but private equity tends to want a quick return on capital in order to satisify its debt covenants. Now that there is a global credit crunch companies like Cerberus are in a tight financial spot where they are having a hard time keeping the cash machine going. That tends to force companies owned by private equity to make decisions not based on what's best for the brand but whats best for the parent company. That said, who gives a s.h.!.t what somebody says about another mans gun. If he likes it and can shoot it well, who gives a damn. Contrary to popular belief, the shooter makes the shot not the gun.

RugerOldArmy
February 15, 2008, 01:03 AM
LRPV in Bencrest Stocks? You can get 'em. Here's mine in long range benchrest style stock.

http://home.comcast.net/~gregrgasser/lrbr.jpg

I have both Remmys and Savages, especially like heavy barrel varminters. I sunk a fortune in an XR-100, and about half into the Savage shown. The Savage shot better initially, and even better now.

The one shown is now 6mm BR Norma (was .223 Rem), on a right-bolt left port LRPV action, in a LRBR stock, floated, pillared, has a rifle-basix trigger (4 Oz), 26" PacNor 3 grove 1-8". Scope is just a Weaver T36.

I'll happily shoot against any Remington that was also 'Bubba-ed' by it's owner in a garage.

My XR100 was a disappointment, and I had almost as much in the scope as I did in this Savage. I'll have to see how it does trued, I have a Shilen barrel to replace original Remmy barrel. The remington is pretty, jeweled bolt, smooth action...but I couldn't find any load the Remington liked that shot much under MOA. It had a mile of freebore in it. Bedded it, not much better. The 40X trigger was 'just OK'...not as good as the Rifle Basix on the Savage...but neither are Jewels. Wearing the original barrel and stock, the Savage outshot the Remington pretty handily.

So, IME, based on Remmy's varminter vs. Savages Varminter...I'd rather have the Savage to shoot. The heavy barrel Savages can shoot. I also have a Savage 114 in .270 that outshoots my BDL.

I can also swap the bolt heads and barrels, headspacing and all, in 20-25 min.

The Remington seems to need a barrel more than the savage...kind of the opposite of the inital thoughts/posts. I'll say this, the XR100 barrel was as smooth as glass and didn't copper foul. The original .223 LRPV barrel copper fouled for may 150-200 rounds, the stopped. The LRPV, in the original barrel (.223 Rem) shot groups about half the size of the XR100 (.22-250), both shooting Bergers and MatchKings.

One note: If I was Remington, I'd worry about CZ. I've a 550, and a 527 (and a 452), that all shoot very well, have great triggers, and have more of that Remington fit and finish than the savages. My experience with Remington was pretty much MOA or larger, nothing impressive. (But I've seen some that shot better.)

skinewmexico
February 15, 2008, 01:28 AM
I think Stockade is making 3 screw benchrest stocks.

YodaVader
February 15, 2008, 04:46 AM
Very interesting indeed. Thus so far nobody has manage to come up with one thing a Rem700 does better than the Savage 10-110 action.

It appears the Savage crowd believes ALL Savages will outshoot ANY and ALL Remington 700s. When comparing complete rifles (action/barrel) between my Savage 12BVSS and 700 LTR I rarely can fire more than two groups with the Savage before accuracy degrades. The bore of my Savage is severely fouled after a few groups fired. To spend more time cleaning than shooting at the range is something I don't have to do with my 700. This is one thing my 700 - as a complete rifle - does much better than my Savage. If it were not for the ease of barrel changes I would have already traded off the 12BVSS.

Now I will say the Accu-Trigger is pretty good for an out of the box rifle. And trigger pull quality is a very significant factor when shooting for precision. All else being equal most shooters will perform better with a lighter trigger when trying to shoot groups. In this regard the trigger on my 12BVSS was better - out of the box - than the 700s I have. When an inexperienced shooter is used to a stock 700 at 5 or 6 pounds a 2lb Accu-Trigger will seem like a revelation!

I still had my Accu-Trigger replaced with a Sharp Shooter Suppply trigger which does not have that center "blade". If a Jewell had been available I would have had one installed as I do with my 700s.

It seems the common belief is that Savages are suppose to be unbeatable against anything short of a full blown custom benchrest rifle. My 700LTR is far more consistent in accuracy than my Savage 12BVSS. It seems those who shoot Savages exclusively find this hard to accept. Seeing that I own a Savage , REPEAT - I OWN A SAVAGE , I prefer the 700. When the Lothar Walther barrel is installed on the 12BVSS that may change.

RugerOldArmy
February 15, 2008, 09:32 AM
It appears the Savage crowd believes ALL Savages will outshoot ANY and ALL Remington 700s.

Don't read my post as meaning that. I've seen trued 700(s) set up that shoot well. I'll say, however, that 'out-of-the-box', and just shot...I've seen more Savages that were good shooters. I've seen some trued Remingtons in .222 and 6 PPC that shot lights out, but they were 'smithed for short range benchrest with Hart's and Kreigers. I've seen a LOT of BVSS, VLP, FP Savages that were 1/2 MOA. The 10/110 12/112 series stuff.



When comparing complete rifles (action/barrel) between my Savage 12BVSS and 700 LTR I rarely can fire more than two groups with the Savage before accuracy degrades. The bore of my Savage is severely fouled after a few groups fired. To spend more time cleaning than shooting at the range is something I don't have to do with my 700. This is one thing my 700 - as a complete rifle - does much better than my Savage.


When I got the LRPV and first shot it, I had exactly the same issue. It took about four boxes of reloads and a lot of soaking in Sweets and BBS to get the copper out. After about four boxes of reloads (say 200-ish rounds), it no longer copper fouled and shot well. I've seen others that had that same issue, and in most of the cases I know it went away. My .270 Win 114 had a sporter weight chrome moly barrel, which didn't seem to copper foul at all, but it seems to be the exception. I'll bet with copper cleaner getting copper off the rough spots and continued shooting, your BVSS barrel will shoot smooth and it will no longer be an issue.


If it were not for the ease of barrel changes I would have already traded off the 12BVSS.

Being able to do this fits right into what the original poster said. I like that a lot.

When I first bought a Savage (the LRPV), I thought it was the ugliest rifle I've ever seen. But I really like the barrel nut setup now. And I really like the right-bolt left-port action.

One thing I didn't say, is that I'm not a huge fan of the Accutrigger. They're fine, especially for a hunting rifle, but it seemed cheap. I'd prefer the CZ single set triggers (and use the set feature) over the accutrigger or the 40X or standard Remington trigger. There is no Savage Jewel trigger, a drawback. But the Rifle Basix trigger and SSS aftermarket triggers are pretty good.


It seems the common belief is that Savages are suppose to be unbeatable against anything short of a full blown custom benchrest rifle. My 700LTR is far more consistent in accuracy than my Savage 12BVSS. It seems those who shoot Savages exclusively find this hard to accept.


Unbeatable, no, surely not. And they're not as asthetically pleasing as a Cooper either (lol!, maybe the accutrigger is better than the stock Cooper trigger tho!).

But I do think that out of the box, Savages usually outshoot Rem(s) dollar for dollar. It probably boils down to the cost of making a solid-bolt action true, and the headspacing.

I don't think most savage shooter think thing they're unbeatable...but I think most are happy with how they shoot. If your LTR shoots good, great!, I really wish my Remingtons shot well, since I wanted a good shooting Reminton since I was a kid. I just don't know if the general percentage of Remingtons that shot well then is the percentage that shoots well now.

Just my $.02...

skinewmexico
February 15, 2008, 10:28 AM
But I do think that out of the box, Savages usually outshoot Rem(s) dollar for dollar.

I agree with that. Probably diminishes as you get to an equal dollar purchase price. But I just have too much fun swapping barrels. My new-to-me $175 Shilen Supermatch 6.5x47 barrel doesn't copper at all. In the future, I'll try not to act like I've been drinking the kool-aid. Don't know if I can expect that from the Remington guys....:neener:

RugerOldArmy
February 15, 2008, 10:50 AM
...But I just have too much fun swapping barrels. My new-to-me $175 Shilen Supermatch 6.5x47 barrel doesn't copper at all. ...

I agree with the YodaVader's post that Savage barrels often copper-foul. It was my experience, and I've seen it at the range affecting others. Once my LRPV shot it, it did no longer copper-foul and shot even better than originally. It shot many 1/3 MOA groups at 300 when I didn't make mistakes, and it had a load that it liked.

But one thing I noticed right away with the PacNor...it seemed to shoot well, cold or warm, from the get-go. And what was even a better suprise was when working up groups...I couldn't find a 'bad' load for it. It seemed , with the exception of 58 Gr V-Max (which still shot below MOA), every combination of components and powder charge shot 1/2 MOA, and a lot shoot better. It was hard to find an 'ideal' load, as many resulted in the same groups. My expectations for performance with this barrel on this action were lower than the result, but some of this is surely attributable to Lapua brass and the fact that 6mmBR Norma is such an accurate and forgiving cartridge.

The fact that you can drop a primo barrel in so easy, is so very attractive.

skinewmexico
February 15, 2008, 11:05 AM
I got that Shilen for that price with 100 rounds of brass and dies. Couldn't stand to pass it up.

RugerOldArmy
February 15, 2008, 11:22 AM
You did well! My next Savage barrel will be a Shilen, even though I very happy with the PacNor.

'Twas a steal! I hate ya for beating me to that deal ;)

YodaVader
February 15, 2008, 07:54 PM
When I got the LRPV and first shot it, I had exactly the same issue. It took about four boxes of reloads and a lot of soaking in Sweets and BBS to get the copper out. After about four boxes of reloads (say 200-ish rounds), it no longer copper fouled and shot well. I've seen others that had that same issue, and in most of the cases I know it went away.

Do you think the fouling is more common in the stainless barrels? Or it is something occurs in the blued barrels too?

My 12BVSS has been fired approx. 300 rounds , nearly all match bullet reloads. Right after the barrel is given a very complete cleaning is when the rifle shows what it can really do. Unfortunately it does not take long for groups to open up.

I'll bet with copper cleaner getting copper off the rough spots and continued shooting, your BVSS barrel will shoot smooth and it will no longer be an issue.

I hope you are correct. I will give it a very thorough cleaning session with Sweets before I take it to the range next time. But if I cannot get the fouling to stop that will give me the best excuse to install that match barrel!

When I first bought a Savage (the LRPV), I thought it was the ugliest rifle I've ever seen.

:D Actually I thought the LRPV looked pretty much like a custom job with barrel nut. My 12BVSS , I really like the look , much nicer looking than my 700s , but the 700s have black HS stocks. I like the style of the custom BR stock that RugerOldArmy has on his LRPV. I would not mind having that style stock for one of my 700s.

Detritus
February 15, 2008, 08:23 PM
It appears the Savage crowd believes ALL Savages will outshoot ANY and ALL Remington 700s

like others I'd like to clarify that i believe no such thing...

I know full well that i have been VERY lucky with both of my savages. both were 1/2 MOA or better with ammo they liked and an "attentive nut behind the trigger"(the 96-97 vintage 110FP was 1/4 MOA with it's favored load).

Some folks seem to think is over-hyping savage, i do not mean to. i simply state my experiences. at two scheduled Prone-only matches, and several times informally (somebody challenging for bragging right, lunch, money) i have taken a box- stock savage, a <$100 scope, and quality ammo. and fired a better score than shooters that were using rigs that cost more than my car. Note: i was NOT always the winner! i never said i've always won, in fact the highest i placed in either of the two formal/shceduled matches was i think 6th out of 30 shooters.. Just that i've used a $600 or less total cost rig and done better guys who put multiple thousands of dollars into their setup.
now amoung the informal stuff, before i left NC the first time, my original 110FP did send one guy scurrying off cussing and trying to figure out how "that cheap Ugly @#$ gun" beat his Brand New IBA built M40A3 clone.

my real point, money/cost of gear doesn't compensate for lack of skill or practice.
a savage target rifle is more than adequate for most shooters needs accuracy wise. it does have failings but so do ALL non-custom rifles.

guess i'll let go of it now, not gonna convert anyone.

RugerOldArmy
February 15, 2008, 08:37 PM
Yoda:

I don't claim to be some sort of internet expert, but for what it's worth, this is my take on copper fouling and Savages. The factory Savage barrels, especially the stainless ones are not lapped nor very smooth. That doesn't mean they are bad barrels, for even Shilen and PacNor lap their barrels, (so they probably start out similarly), and I believe this (lapping) is a hand-labor proce$$. So most barrels after rifling have some rough spots, and you want sharp lands anyway.

When shooting a new barrel, copper will collect on the rough spots. Shooting will wear it smooth, but it won't smooth spots already covered in copper fouling. So, I use a lot of Sweets initially, (yes at the range when new), and BBS (Butches Bore Shine..which has _some_ copper solvent).

After you clean and remove the copper from the rough spots, and shoot again, more area is smoothed. Eventually it shoots pretty clean.

I'd guess your BVSS is near that point now, for my LRPV was frustrating in the beginning. After 200ish shots, sweets produced no blue on the patches, and life was good for me. You know, you mentioned that it shot well, then lost accuracy? Well, once my LRPV ceased to copper foul, even those first shots were tighter.


I've had this happen with other rifles, but it seemed Savages do more of it initially. Avoid the temptation to do something drastic (Like JB paste or the overzealous break-in strategies. You DO want sharp land-edges, just not rough land 'tops'.) But use a strong copper solvent until it gets better, and I'd bet it shoots in. I've yet to see a BVSS that didn't shoot well (1/2 MOA-ish), but it doesn't mean they're not out there.

Maybe Savage laps less to reduce cost. Dunno.

CZ223
February 16, 2008, 02:19 AM
to be posting right behind Ruger Old Army. So far in this thread he is the one I agree with the most and my experience has mirrored his almost exactly. I now own seven Savage rifles and 2 extra barrels. All of my guns are BVSS or VLP models and all have stainless fluted barrels. Only 3 of my rifles have the Accu-trigger. At least 5 of the of the seven are sub-half MOA shooters. Two of them are too new to me to know yet but limited firing says they will be as well. Before I go any farther I have to say that I really like the look of my rifles. I don't care for the tupperware stocks on the low end guns, but I don't like the Remington tupperware either. As for real wood stocked guns I think that the model 14 Classic is at least as good looking, better in my opinion, than the Remington counterpart, and less expensive to boot. As for the problem of the barrels fouling, my experience is right on par with what ROA said. The more I shoot them the smoother they get. My 12 year old model 12BVSS in 223 still shoots 1/2'' or better 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I have TORTURED THIS RIFLE and it has thousands down the tube. I have recently rebarreled a a 308 to 22-250, this is afactory take-off not a custom barrel, and it is shooting half inch 5 shot groups with WWB and 2 handloads. My 2 204 VLPs shoot closer to the 1/4 MOA mark than they do 1/2 MOA. I like the ACCU-trigger very much and have no desire to replace them. Unlike many others I even live with the old style triggers and have mine tuned very light. This something I will probably change eventually but they haven't seemed to hurt accuracy much at all.

For what it is worth I was not born with a Savage in my hands. I have pretty much owned all of the major brands over the years. I have owned no less than 6 Ruger 77's at one time with heavy barrels and the tang mounted safeties. I loved those guns. I have owned 2 Winchester model 70's. I have also owned 4 or 5 Remingtons, three of them Heavy barreled Varmint rigs. The last one I owned was a 700 VSSF in 22-250 with the McMIllan stock and the Heavy fluted stainless barrel. At the time this was an $1,100.00 gun. It shot O.K. but not as well as either one of my 2 Savage BVSS's which by the way cost about $1100 for both at the time. I no longer own anything but Savages because they just shoot better, period. Are they perfect, no. The actions could be a lot smoother. Are they something to build in to a record setting bench rest rifle, no. Their 2 new F-class rifles are setting the standard for box-stock rifles though it seems. Are Savage rifles better than Remington rifles? On the whole I would have to answer yes. The main reason is that dollar for dollar you will more than likely get a better shooting rifle for your dollar if you spend it on the Savage. The next rifle I buy other than a Savage will probably be be a CZ in 204 or some other Varmint caliber just because I have heard so much good about them.

On a final note I have to tell a story. On a trip to the range about 5 years ago I ran into a friend of mine who was shooting with another guy when I got there. My friend Tom and his buddy Mike were shooting Mike's new custom rig. I don't remember the brand but I do remember having seen ads that guranteed 1/2MOA accuracy. I had never been impressed by the ads as my $550 Savage would shoot that well and usually better. Mike, it turned out, had about $3400 invested in the gun and the scope. Along with the used Leupold 6.5x20 that was on mine I had about $900 tied up in my rig. One thing lead to another and Mike ends up telling me that my gun can not possibly shoot as well his gun and he doesn't believe that it can shoot as well as I claim. I had already seen a couple of his targets that he was braggin on so I decidied to see just how sure he was of himself. I offered to bet my gun against his. We would each shoot 5 groups of 5 and the best target would win. Mike balked saying that it wasn't fair because his was worth so much more than mine. I allowed that that was true true so, if I happened to win the bet I would allow him to buy his gun back for $1100 (the cost of my gun with a new scope). He was ready to do it too when Tom stepped in and told him not too cause he had seen me shoot before. When things calmed down we went ahead with the contest just for fun and his best group was no better than my worst. At firsthe thought it might be that I was just a better shooter than him. I let him shoot my rifle to prove that it wasn't me. If that weren't good enough I walked into a local gun store about a month later to find his rig on consignment. I asked the dealer if the guy had ordered anything new. As it turned out, he had ordered a Savage just like mine.:D

ndolson
February 16, 2008, 02:33 AM
All I know is my Savage 10FP in .223 (completely stock) even with the "flimsy" stock is scary accurate. Its only hinderance is my shooting ability, and I can shoot under 1 moa with it from the bench. Add a Bell & Carlson stock bed the barrel, who knows what will happen.

The trigger is nothing short of fabulous. Love it.

YodaVader
February 16, 2008, 10:52 AM
You know, you mentioned that it shot well, then lost accuracy?

I've yet to see a BVSS that didn't shoot well (1/2 MOA-ish), but it doesn't mean they're not out there.

Yes indeed , my 12BVSS has, on many range sesssions, shot BELOW .5" @ 100 yards for 5 shots , but it just simply will not do it for a series of shots - like an aggregate - five consecutive 5 shot groups. Even the best ever series of four 5 shot groups started with a nice .342" but by the 4th opened up to .659". The first group was after a barrel cleaning and a fouler shot fired.

Some might say that is great but with match components - Lapua brass , benchrest primers and Sierra MatchKings , solid benchrest , SSS trigger and proven scope the consistency should be there. Now some may say the shooter - ME - is not up to the part!:D But I have fired consistent goups with my 700 on a regular basis.

I know full well that i have been VERY lucky with both of my savages. both were 1/2 MOA or better with ammo they liked and an "attentive nut behind the trigger"(the 96-97 vintage 110FP was 1/4 MOA with it's favored load).

Don't doubt you at all and it is impressive that mass produced rifles can achieve such high levels off accuracy. I know many here simply will think I am not truthful but my 700 LTR also performs to that level. Thing that gets me , when someone mentions they have a 700 that is exceptionally accurate and did not take hundreds to get it that way , everyone is skeptical.:confused:

my real point, money/cost of gear doesn't compensate for lack of skill or practice.

Very true!

RugerOldArmy
February 16, 2008, 11:25 AM
Yes indeed , my 12BVSS has, on many range sesssions, shot BELOW .5" @ 100 yards for 5 shots , but it just simply will not do it for a series of shots - like an aggregate - five consecutive 5 shot groups. Even the best ever series of four 5 shot groups started with a nice .342" but by the 4th opened up to .659". The first group was after a barrel cleaning and a fouler shot fired.

When you would clean after that fifth group, did you get blue patches if using copper solvent?

I think you just didn't shoot in your barrel yet. In two more trips to the range, you'll probably start to sound like some sort of Savage Kool-Aid drinker, and after you swap barrels most of the Remington bigots will ignore your posts or begin to hate you. I've seen it happen before... :neener:

CZ223
February 16, 2008, 05:50 PM
It is not that we don't believe the occasional Remy is a capable of stellar peformance, I for one do. The problem is that we know it is only the occasional Remmy that will out shoot the Average Savage. The whole argument about the barrels fouling quickly is true but to me seems a minor inconvenience. There are several methods to cure this including fire lapping and hand lapping. I did use JB bore paste on my first 223 and that one is still shooting very well to this day. I do have to laugh at at the prospect of buying a new Savage only to replace the barrel with an aftermarket one. It seems pretty clear to me that the Savage barrels are quite accurate if not a little rough.

Ash
February 16, 2008, 06:08 PM
I had a Savage 110FP in .308 with stock adjustable trigger (pre accutrigger) and original synthetic stock. Best 5 shot group was 13/32's with PMP ammo. It regularly shot 3/4" all day long - with that crappy stock. Now, it was a heavy barrelled rifle. I sold it because it was too heavy for hunting and that kind of accuracy was not needed. But, my personal experience with that 110, an older 111 and a Stevens 110 (all pre-accutrigger) was that they were all very accurate rifles.

Ash

YodaVader
February 17, 2008, 08:04 AM
The whole argument about the barrels fouling quickly is true but to me seems a minor inconvenience. It seems pretty clear to me that the Savage barrels are quite accurate if not a little rough.

To me this is the equivalent of having to change the oil in your car everyday before taking off. Not a minor issue but a PITA to have to spend more time cleaning than shooting.

I do have to laugh at at the prospect of buying a new Savage only to replace the barrel with an aftermarket one.

Laugh if you want - If I had mentioned owning a 700 that was fouling like my 12BVSS and said I wanted to replace the barrel then I would be hearing , "with a Savage that would be such a simple job and cost you so much less".

I originally bought the 12BVSS to find out for myself just how good these Savages are suppose to be , not to go out and spend $300 on another barrel. The fact that it DOES NOT shoot any better than my 700LTR even when cleaned and that it fouls so quickly makes the match barrel installation seem worthwhile.

Truth be told if I had to do it over again , instead of buying my last two .223s - the 12BVSS and 700SPS , I would have just applied the money to a custom action / match barrel.

I think you just didn't shoot in your barrel yet. In two more trips to the range, you'll probably start to sound like some sort of Savage Kool-Aid drinker

I will take RugerOldArmy's advice and perform some thorough cleaning sessions along with Sweets to remove the copper . And give it another few range sessions.

Hudge
February 17, 2008, 03:00 PM
I've got a Savage 116, and a Remington 700 BDL DM. My 700 shoots a wee bit more accurate, but the Savage is nipping at it's heels. I have the non-accu trigger, and replaced it with a SSS trigger about 7 years ago. From the faftory I like the Remington action and trigger better, but my rifles are each 12 years old now. Looking at new rifles, I like the newer Savages over the Remingtons. I am hoping I make rank this year, and I can buy me a new Savage 14 7mm-08!

Savage Shooter
February 17, 2008, 06:29 PM
Won't argue that the stock is ugly but my 12fv .223 is plenty accurate enough for anything I care to shoot I shot a crow at 352 paces in 20-30mph winds Givin I had to hold alot for the wind they still shoot I say functionality over beauty any day although I do plan on later putting on a bell&carlson medelist stock. As for the trigger the best thing ive ever shot mine was set 1.5 lbs from the factory and broke like glass. I do have to clean often but thats because i shoot cheap wolf ammo. For the money way better than remington.:neener:
Love my savage If i had to buy it again I wouldn't buy a bull barrel but thats it.:evil:

JNewell
February 17, 2008, 08:50 PM
I have had both Remington 700s and Winchester 70s that shot .5MOA or less. (Never had that happen with my single Ruger 77 flatbolt, which I keep solely for sentimental reasons.) Never tried a Savage centerfire (have an 10ML II) but there is no question in my mind that:

1. Savage is capable of producing rifles as accurate as anything else commercially available as mass-produced rifles

2. Remington's QC has been slipping in the past several years

3. Savage represents a notable value, defined as value : performance, certainly better than the other major manufacturer's bolt rifles

There is luck in all of this...and skill...ours and the manufacturers'. You can make good choices without diminishing other good choices, though.

z_biker
February 21, 2008, 06:21 PM
Interesting, those that dislike Savages the most never owned, shot, researched, or held one.
Brand loyal to the core, no matter what. Sounds like the Harley vs. Honda debate.
z

YodaVader
February 21, 2008, 08:58 PM
Will they ever take over the extreme accuracy market, no, that sector is ruled by trued remington 700's, 40x's 722's, xp-100's, and more recently, dominated by custom actions such as Stolle, BAT, Neiska Bay, Stiller, Viper, Hall, and others..

Yep , was looking at this 2007 match results and there are still plenty of Remingtons to be found that are competitive.

http://www.pa1000yard.com/wo/wotoplists.php?year=2007&cls=Light+Gun&grsc=Group&topct=100&send=Submit

RugerOldArmy
February 21, 2008, 09:37 PM
Quote:
Will they ever take over the extreme accuracy market, no, that sector is ruled by trued remington 700's, 40x's 722's, xp-100's, and more recently, dominated by custom actions such as Stolle, BAT, Neiska Bay, Stiller, Viper, Hall, and others..

Yep , was looking at this 2007 match results and there are still plenty of Remingtons to be found that are competitive.

http://www.pa1000yard.com/wo/wotopli...00&send=Submit

Come now, what exactly do you believe about that list. Not a single rifle there has a Remington action and barrel. Every one lists a gunsmith. There is an entire sub-industry devoted to truing, sleeving, and rebarreling Remingtons.

I challenge each of these posters to go to a respected benchrest forum (benchrest.com, 6mmbr.com, etc.) and ask about the wisdom of building a competitive benchrest rifle on your factory benchrest action.

RugerOldArmy
February 21, 2008, 09:38 PM
*double tap*

z_biker
February 22, 2008, 02:26 PM
Double tap, again...........

1/2 MOA is not in the same league as 1/5 MOA.

z

YodaVader
February 22, 2008, 04:15 PM
Come now, what exactly do you believe about that list

I believe that not a single rifle listed was a Savage.

MJ
February 22, 2008, 05:15 PM
my '42 shoots as well as my old 110.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/t001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/bkt048.jpg
:neener:

skinewmexico
February 22, 2008, 07:00 PM
I believe that not a single rifle listed was a Savage.

Download the list from the F-Class Nationals.

Detritus
February 22, 2008, 08:58 PM
I believe that not a single rifle listed was a Savage.

Yeah and not a single rifle on there is a FACTORY remington either.

As noted above there is a whole, huge, sub-set of the gunsmithing industry dedicated to re-making remingtons into benchrest guns.
savage has for various reasons (including the military's choice of the rem700 as a base for the M40 and M24). not enjoyed the same popularity or even recognition of it's existance within the general public, as the remington 700.

So the savage does not have hundreds, if over a thousand, 'smiths out in the US offering to tune it up into a competitive benchrest gun. i can think of only two off the top of my head doing such builds on a regular basis. and most of those seem to be for guys shooting F-class.

and honestly I don't beleive savage will ever overtake remington as a Benchrest action, remmy has too big a head start. But as skinewmexico said take a look at the F-class Stats. Savage DOES have a significant presence there, and i beleive will maintain that presence.

RugerOldArmy
February 22, 2008, 11:11 PM
Yoda,

Where do you live in Indiana? NW? Just for laughs, or side bets if you wish. I'll take you as a guest to the ISRA range. http://www.isra.org/range/about.shtml

We can have a contest, just for laughs, or side bets if you wish. I'm a single dad, but maybe a Saturday, in the next month or two. You pick the range (100 yards, 100 meters, 300 yards.) and wether we shoot for aggregates or score.

PM me if interested. You can bring a camera, post results as you see fit.

22-rimfire
February 23, 2008, 12:15 AM
Everyone likes what they like. It's a free country. I'd choose a Remington any day over a Savage if I have the money. My first centerfire rifle was a Mossberg. They were about equal to Savages at the time. Fine rifle actually. Most Savages then were stickly utilitarian. However, now Savage has some real nice looking rifles and I have been tempted over and over again to buy one. I hear the accuracy is just fine. Triggers are good.

I keep my rifles pretty much stock and have little interest in modulation. I'll pay a gunsmith to build me a custom rifle if I want one.

The AR platform is useful if you like to tinker with add on's and so forth. I still pretty much buy them the way I want them and shoot them. Buy another if I want another rifle or caliber.

Is Savage poised to take over the Remington market? No way. They will slaughter Ruger though.

MarshallDodge
February 23, 2008, 12:44 AM
Gee whiz....Arguing over Glocks vs 1911's in the Pistol forum and Remmy's vs. Savages in the rifle forum.

I have come close to buying a Savage several times. Why? Because their resale value is terrible and you can pick up a used one really cheap. :neener: Someday this may change.

I have not bought a bolt action rifle in a long time. My first bolt action is a Rem 700 VS in .223 that is a tack driver. The factory adjustable trigger is a really nice feature as well. Later I bought a 700 VLS in 6mm and did not do as well with it, whether it was me or the VLS stock I never figured it out.

If Savage put that fat receiver of theirs on a diet and supplied it with a good adjustable trigger then I might think about it. For now I will stick with a Remmy and you can have your Savage. :)

Remington will be around for a long time for several reasons besides the name.

YodaVader
February 23, 2008, 09:46 AM
Yoda,

Where do you live in Indiana? NW? Just for laughs, or side bets if you wish. I'll take you as a guest to the ISRA range. http://www.isra.org/range/about.shtml

We can have a contest, just for laughs, or side bets if you wish. I'm a single dad, but maybe a Saturday, in the next month or two. You pick the range (100 yards, 100 meters, 300 yards.) and wether we shoot for aggregates or score.

PM me if interested. You can bring a camera, post results as you see fit.

Actually that sounds pretty good to me.:) To meet others that shoot for precision is always a treat. At my range there is only a couple of shooters who are really serious about accuracy shooting. One has given me a lot of great advice.

I did not read the link yet. The range I shoot at is in the Muncie / New Castle area. It is limited to 100 yards. If you are near there you are more than welcome to be my guest as well.

With the crappy weather we are having I would rather shoot in decent weather although I did it make it outdoors for the first time this year last weekend.

Since my range is 100 yards and I never shoot on a scoring target , 100 yard for group size is the only type of centerfire rifle shooting that I do. All my rifles are stock except for triggers on all , even the the Savage. And the SPS has a HS stock. The 700LTR has been my most consistent performer and that is what I would use.

In fact I would love to be able to shoot another Savage too! In all the years I have shot at my current range there has only been one time where there was another Savage on the line and it too was a 12BVSS , although in .22-250.

Let me take a look at the link and I'll send PM.

JohnL2
February 24, 2008, 05:13 PM
This is almost like arguing which is better, Coke or Pepsi?

I own a Savage in .22-250 and it is a damn fine rifle for the money. But I would be hard-pressed to purchase another one.
I must admit, handling a factory mass production firearm is just hard to get excited about. No matter how well it may stack up against more established reputation firearms.
Sometimes you just want something custom built just for you. One that is to your satisfaction with no compromises. And I think I have gotten to that point.

Oh, I prefer Pepsi by the way.

jbech123
May 27, 2008, 05:35 PM
From the sounds of it, savages have come a long way in recent years, who knows maybe they will dethrone Remington at some point. To date, though, Remington has given me no real reason to switch. I am not a hardcore benchrest shooter shooting a rail gun with a 2 oz trigger, so depending on what your goals/interests are, my experience may not amount to much. I do not handload, and tend to shoot for bragging rights or brewskis with my friends rather than win any type of competition, and we pretty much shoot stock rifles with a few mods but definitely guns we hunt with. SO my experience is more from a very accurate hunting rifle standpoint more than a benchrest perspective.
That said I have owned 7 remington 700's, the worst of which shot .8moa, and that was an ADL 7mm mag that I bought new for $299 when a shop near me was liquidating their ADL's. Plus that thing kicks like a mule so recoil aversion probably makes me the limiting factor more than the gun. The best one was a .223 700 classic, with a wood stock, that on many occasions produced .25" 3 shot groups. I currently have a pss that will do about .6" and a 5R that will do sub .5". The only thing I have ever done to any of them is adjust the trigger, and I am no pro gunsmith by any means! On the other hand I have had 3 rugers, none of which would hold under 2 moa, 1 savage(from the early 90's, with a wood stock and pencil barrel) that shot about 2 moa, a winchester 70 in 375 H&H that shot just under 1 moa, and an Encore rifle that was at about 1.25 moa. So for my needs, I can go to the local gunshop and plunk down $850 for a 700pss and get a rifle that is virtually guaranteed to do .75 moa out of the box, and very likely better than that. Every rifle I've had of any brand has been reliable, so I can't give one an edge over another in that respect.

jbech123
May 27, 2008, 05:40 PM
duplicate

Tarvis
May 27, 2008, 06:53 PM
I think Stevens is better than both of those. Way better.

MinnMooney
May 27, 2008, 07:21 PM
Tubbs makes a set of grit bullets - 5 stages of grittiness - that should do several things for any barrel. First, they smooth the bore so the cleaning process goes much easier and second, your accuracy should improve given the eveness of the bore. I've read a very scientifically followed routine to test for before/after changes to the barrel while using the Tubbs grit bullets. It improved the accurace and ease of cleaning tremendiously.

jbech123
May 27, 2008, 07:41 PM
"I think Stevens is better than both of those. Way better."
Any actual data to go along with that, or just an opinion?

Schleprok62
May 27, 2008, 07:42 PM
To answer the OP's question. I doubt it mainly because of government contracts...

That said, I have 2 Stevens model 200's that are quite accurate sub 1" @ 200 yards with my handloads... haven't fired any factory stuff through either of them. I have owned one Rem M700 and it was about 1" @ 200 yards with factory stuff - before I got into reloading.

I think Savage has come a long way, but still has a way to go before they approach Remingtons market share.

Is Savage capable of it? Sure!!

Remember when Sears was the RETAIL GIANT??? Where the hell did Wal-Mart come from?? a small produce stand in Arkansas...

Geno
May 27, 2008, 08:15 PM
About 1.5 to 2 years ago, I saw the Savage Mark II .22LRs. The price was such that I thought, if it's as good as they claim, great, and if it isn't, it was dirt-cheap anyhow. It's a tack-driver...literally. I can press 10 tacs into a piece of pine board, set the "targets" at distances of 20 to 30 yards, and drive all 10 tacks with Remington Thunderbolts. The scope is an equally cheap BSA Sweet 22 3-9 power. Due to my recent past surgeries, I didn't have the opportunity to hunt with it. I will soon this summer on varmints. Can you say POAPOI(1)?! It hits precisely where I point. Watch out varmints!!

Not to be outdone, my Remington 700 SPS varmint in .223 Remington is equally accurate. At 100 yards it is printing groups that measure 0.182" at 100 yards. Ergo, that rifle is my other POAPOI(2). Again, watch out varmints.

In my estimation, Remington and Savage have become co-equals for quality. For the money, they are my best accuracy rifles to take against nasty varmints, that unchecked, could destroy quarter-million dollar tractors' axles. As soon as my surgery is over this summer, I have plans for a 4 to 6-weeks venture in target-practice/varmint hunting.

Gewehr98
May 29, 2008, 01:46 AM
COME ON! It's not like a synthetic stocked Remington is a stellar example of the finest quality fit and finish envied by riflesmiths worldwide.

Krochus, I'm surprised at you. My 700PSS would beg to differ:

http://mauser98.com/700psstitusville.jpg

And if you want to break out of the Savage/Remington price range and head for that riflesmith's ever-so enviable fit and finish, I'll sell you my Remington 40X in .308. It wasn't dropped straight from The Mothership like your Savage was, but it's a damned fine rifle, with no tweaking needed once delivered from the factory - including the accuracy guarantee from the folks who made it.


http://mauser98.com/40xbenchircleft2.jpg

I still have a Savage 340 and a Savage 110. They're deer guns, and the former is one heck of a fun gun for a bolt-action .30-30. However, after witnessing a Savage separate the bolt head from the bolt body in a sniper competition and thereby disqualifying the owner, I'll steer clear of them for serious target/tactical use, thank you.

Ash
May 29, 2008, 07:23 AM
Yeah, but compare a bottom-end synthetic ADL, not a more expensive kevlar model. As I have said before, there is far more in common between the two actions than differences. After all, they are both rifles designed around the most economical means of production envisioned at the time. They are round-bottomed tubular steel receivered rifles encorporating a separate recoil lug between the barrel and stock with adjustable triggers, dual forward-locking bolts and rear sliding safeties (albeit different locations) that lock the sear.

Very literally, and probably a better example than any other firearm of this comparison, they are Chevy versus Ford. A Chevy man might vehemently argue the superiority of the C-1500 over the F-150, but in reality they are both so similar in design and construction that is is really just brand loyalty.

Ash

dak0ta
June 18, 2008, 02:15 PM
Savage Model 14 American Classic vs. Rem 700 CDL..

Who wins...

MCgunner
June 18, 2008, 06:55 PM
I won 'cause I own both brands. :neener: I agree that the Remingtons are the better rifles, but I still can't say the Savage doesn't work. It's 1 moa accurate and gets the job done. So, it ain't pretty, don't sit there looking at it! :neener:

The Savage is so easy to work on, it could become the 10/22 of bolt action centerfires if the aftermarket allows.

Why do I get the feeling guys with Kleingunthers and Sakos and Weatherby MkVs and such are reading this thread and laughing their butts off? :rolleyes:

USASA
June 30, 2008, 08:39 PM
Quote:

Hmmmm. If the Savage is so great, how come everybodys ordering the Shilen barrels?

Seriously, Savages are ugly and have terrible fitting/feeling stocks. At least I have some pride of ownership with the Remington.
__________________
Best Regards,

Ron

USASA 1965/69

Hmmm. A lot of Remington folks order after-market barrels also. USASA ? I suspect that might refer to U.S. Army Security Agency. See my Member name. 1960/1963 :rolleyes:

R.W.Dale
June 30, 2008, 09:11 PM
Hmmmm. If the Savage is so great, how come everybodys ordering the Shilen barrels?

Because WE can have a shillen for $300 installed or about half what it costs the Remington guy's

Stevens 200 + Select match Shilen barrel = Less than a rem 700 by itself.

If you 700'ers could have a shilen for that you'ed be silly not to. Minus the optics I have less in my Stevens 200 than a bottom of the line SPS varmint 700 costs. But unlike a stock 700 my Stevens shoots in the .3's constantly :neener:

You guy's are just jealous! Your pro 700 arguments kind remind me of the pie in the sky touchy feely emotional rhetoric Harley guys resort to in order to justify paying twice as much for an inferior product.

RugerOldArmy
June 30, 2008, 10:16 PM
And if you want to break out of the Savage/Remington price range and head for that riflesmith's ever-so enviable fit and finish, I'll sell you my Remington 40X in .308. It wasn't dropped straight from The Mothership like your Savage was, but it's a damned fine rifle, with no tweaking needed once delivered from the factory - including the accuracy guarantee from the folks who made it.

"ever-so enviable fit and finish"...Are you serious? A 40Xs is not a Cooper. Let alone is it a custom on a BAT/Stolle/Stiller/Nesika, but it approaches the price tag, and gives you a Remington factory barrel. (Oh Joy!!! The Green lawyers picked my chamber reamer!) A 40X is a semi-custom, and it's three times the price of a Savage LRPV:

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/custom_shop/40-x/model_40-XB_rangemaster_thumbhole.asp

Come now, how could you make a worse deal than to get a 40X? $2900 for a Rem 700 with $20 of glass bedding and a marginally better trigger? (It's surely not a Jewell.)

Over that, I'd take a Savage LRPV (or their F/TR), buy a Nightforce NSX Scope, and pocket $750 (or get two Shilen barrels to my specs.) ...And the fugly old Savage will probably still outshoot that Remington 40X...even though the Remington would still need to fund the $cope.

No wonder you're trying to sell it! :neener:

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