[Loaded]

Do they only come with a double action or can they be had with single action only? Who has the better track histoery of the two?

[sanchezero]

I just recently picked up a CZ75 single action. It's pretty tasty.

I'd definitely choose the CZ (either DA or SA) over the FN. I've only toyed with one FN and it had a godawful trigger. This has been reported by multiple sources.

Also, you can find full capacity CZ mags alot easier I'd imagine, since the FN you're looking at (I think) is a post-ban gun.

[faustulus]

That would be a hard decision. I love my Hi Power and my CZ SA. But if I got down to it I would have to go for the Hi Power, just because it is a little lighter and a little smaller with pretty much the same firepower.

[Loaded]

Thanks guys. I guess I need to read up on the double action models. I don't like DA in an semi auto. And what is a Decocking device? Is that something else affiliated with the double action?

Now that I have narrowed it down to a CZ that I want, let me ask you guys this. The CZ or a Sig 220 or 226? Oh, and can the Sig be had in Single Action? Thanks again guys.

[faustulus]

When you say FN I think Hi Power. When you say CZ I think 75. If either of these assumptions are wrong...
Anyway if you are getting a CZ I would suggest taking a look at the SA version. the normal 75 is a DA gun but can be carried cocked and locked just like a SA. To set it up for double action you must manually lower the hammer. But why would you want to do that? The CZ 75 SA fixes the 'problem' it is a single action gun with bigger safeties (ambi to boot) a better mag release and mags drop free (the CZ 75 doesn't allow mags to drop free. althought this can be fixed.)
I own a Sig 226 (220, 225, 228, 229 and 230 too but who's counting?) and it is an excellent double action gun. They cost more but it is easy to see where the money went when you examine one.

[Loaded]

Thanks Faustulus. Whew, getting confused here lol. Too many nice autoloaders to choose from! May I bore you with one more question please? Is the Sig 220 and or 226 single action or double action? I carry cocked and locked and I just don't care for the DA configuration. Thanks again.

[PCRCCW]

Well lets get to the basic nuts and bolts of both guns..

FN's single action gun is the HP....classic and favorite of alot of people.
The gun has a cult following and with great reason...IMO, its just a mag safety away from a good all around s/a gun.
FN's double action is NOT a HP....they may call it one, but its not close to the same thing. The trigger mechanism and its firing pin block setup IS NOT user friendly. Its shaped and feels like a Hi Power but the trigger will dissapoint most who are trigger critical. :scrutiny:
FN's quality is first rate...even if they bogus'd up the D/A's trigger. :what:

CZ makes the SA version of the 75 and is a sweety. HPophiles who shoot mine are often converted to the evil ways of CZdom. Its got a couple of things from the CZ Champion that makes it very attractive and trust me, they are a SHOOTER.
The DA version of the gun is the SAME as the SA version. Just a little tweak on the same trigger group. The DA gun is also a good SA gun...thus, being carried cocked and locked. This is a big enough advantage over the BHP for me...but its all relative.

Both makers are top notch and IMO, depends on how the guns feel to you....thats it. If you want an SA only gun either version will do you very very well. If you want a DA version....well, then there is only one. :evil:

Shoot well...........

[Loaded]

PCRCCW - Thank you very much for the answers. Excellent information and just what I was looking for.

Unfortunately, between the time I last posted and when you replied I have begun looking into a Sig. The equation just got bigger!!!

Would you please give me the same outline on the Sig as you did for CZ and FN? Single action and cocked and locked capabilities of course. Thank you once again and I apologize for my questions. It's just that I have never delved into the European 1911 market, but I'm always open to other options and these 3 gun makers look like quality pieces.

[cslinger]

Well with SIG you get absolute reliability, great fit and finish, excellent accuracy, world reknown repuatation, SIG Snobbery Included at no extra charge and unfortunitely for you the finest double action/single action gun on the market.

The only cocked and locked SIG that comes to mind is the P210 and after you pony up the $2500 or so for that I don't think you would want to do much more than rub it with a soft cloth rocking it back an forth in your arms.

I have seen a couple of SIG pro's recently with external safety's but these along with the double action only SIGs seem to be more of an after thought.

If I were in your boat with your requirements I would go CZ75 Single Action or CZ97. CZ makes an excellent product that doesn't have the fit and finish of a SIG and some of the magazines seem very cheaply made but they seem to work. The trade off being you pay a lot less too. IMHO you get more gun then the money you pay with most CZs. This is coming from a certified SIG nut so that has to say something.

SIGs are the best traditional double/single action guns on the market IMO but as for single action guns you really only have the P210 which I have never even held. Seems to be more of a trophy/target gun then a practical firearm when you look at it's design and price.

Hope this helps.

Chris

[Loaded]

Chris - Outstanding, and thank you. Looks like I'll be making a turn towards the CZ display case. I did in fact hold a CZ75 Saturday, but like I mentioned in my previous post I had no idea what to look/feel for. Same way we all were when we held our very first handgun (if you know what I mean). So, I basically held, pointed it, looked at it and thought "yeah, it's pretty cool." And then headed back over to the American 1911 display case. But ever since, I have been surfing the net reading as much as I can about the three guns mentioned, hence this thread.

I very much appreciate the input, and the equation is now once again smaller, and more than likely I'll go with the CZ75. I didn't however pay too much attention to the price tag on the one I held, and I believe it was somewhere in the area of $500, give or take $50. Is this a reasonable price? Thanks again. Or, if you prefer not to answer I can always search Gunbroker.com and see what they are going for in there.

Thanks again guys.

[cslinger]

I don't know where you live so that could be a factor. If you are in MD you limited to certain firearms and prices have skyrocketed on older models.

That being said. $500-$550 for a CZ75 seems pretty high. You should be able to find a plain jane CZ75 for $300-$400. Online you are looking at around $350+$20 shipping+$20 or so for tranfer so $390ish out the door.

I know the single action only CZ75s command a bit of premium but I have never researched them as I am a double action decocker kind of guy with 1911s and Single Action Armys as my single action guns.

The CZ97s are in .45 and I believe I have seen them go for around $450 to $500. I have no practical experience with these but have read that occasionaly you get one that doesn't like hollowpoint ammunition. I believe this comes from how tight CZ barrels tend to be in their pistols and rifles. This makes them extremely accurate though. I would dare say that the CZ that I had was a hair more accurate then any of my 9mm SIGs. My SIG P220 probably edged it out though.

Remember when shopping for CZs there are many models and configurations. You want to stay away from any BD models as in CZ75BD as this is a decocker only model, no cocked and locked. The standard CZ75 or CZ75 military can be carried C&L so you don't have to limit yourself to the single action only CZ75, although I have heard they have very nice triggers.

Full size CZ75s in 9mm have a relatively large supply of full capacity magazines that range in price from about $30-$50 a piece. Not bad when you consider my HK P7 8 round magazines are $50 a pop and all my SIG magazines average $30 a pop for non-full cap magazines.

Hope this helps.

[cslinger]

Just to clarify. I didn't mean to allude to the fact that there is something wrong with the BD models, as personally I think they are the way to go, I just meant that they would not fit your personal criteria.

Chris

[Loaded]

Chris. Thanks again. I'm trying to arm myself with enough information so that I don't make a purchase based solely on what the "behind the counter guy" says he likes. Your information has been a tremendous help. Perhaps I need to get over the decocking thing. But it just sounds complicated, confusing and unneccassary. The weapon I ultimately choose will be used for carrying purposes and I want the most "at ready" piece out there.

Thanks again for your well written and informative answers. I look forward to reading anything else you choose to say about the CZ pistol.

[cslinger]

I am of the belief that a carry gun needs to be a point and click affair without any extraneous controls to worry about. I do not like external safetys and as such don't like single action autos for carry.

That doesn't mean they are bad nor does it mean they are obsolete. No matter what you choose training will be required to make it work for you. Some people argue that the double action trigger is heavy and hard to learn to use where as a single action gun is so much easier. That is true but the time you save learing how to manipulate a double action trigger you gain back by learning how to draw and release the saftey quickly.

It really is six on one side a half dozen on the other. I myself prefer a double action decocker for a couple of reasons.

1)I like having a heavy first trigger pull for saftey reasons and liability reasons as I don't want to accidentally touch a round off when the pucker factor is high. Again nothing more than a training issue but I prefer to err on the side of caution.

2)I like not haveing an external safety. I have found that I am pretty slow or inaccurate when drawing and shooting guns with an external saftey. I caught myself with my thumb behind the slide of a fake 1911 once during a speed draw and although I got the safety off, hit my target before the other guy(laser beam) I would have broken my thumb as the gun recoiled in real life. Once again I don't train much on guns with external safeties so this is just a training issue / personal preferance.

3)I like decokers because the external lever that decocks the gun is used before or after a high stress event unlike an external safety lever which is used during a high stress event. I would rather use fine motor skills for non stressful times.

4)As much as I understand how a single action with a safety works, take the 1911 for example, I just can't get over cocked and locked mentally. I know it is absolutely safe in my mind but there is still a part of me that just doesn't like the fact that should the saftey get disengaged the trigger pull is so light. I don't like Glocks for this reason...too light a trigger for my tastes. This is just personal preference and once again a training issue. I just come back to myself and when stress levels and adrenaline is high I want as simple and safe a mechanism as possible.

I guess in my opionion double actions decockers, double action revolvers and the HK P7 are about the best ways to go for a carry/duty weapon for me. They all offer very high levels of safety while at the same time allow for the use of a light single action pull if necessary for a long or precise shot.

All that being said I am not knocking anybody's choice of carry guns. Single action, double action, double action only, slingshot, crossbow whatever. It all comes down to one word. TRAINING. My preference leans towards the above for the above reasons and as such that is where the great majority of my training and shooting is.

Buy whatever you are most comfortable with. Just shoot it lots and lots so whatever the manual of operation is and control layout is it becomes like second nature to you. SIGs are this way for me. The control layout is second nature to me.

Chris

[cslinger]

Resale value can be low depending on where you are. Although CZs are fine guns and IMHO almost Eastern European SIGs there are not too many people who know about them or are willing to take a chance on them.

Sure they have a cult following that is getting bigger and bigger as the word gets out but Joe Average Gun Owner from Topeka or Great Falls or Nashille for that matter simply doesn't know what CZ is all about. Therefore many places don't stock CZs and therefore if you ever decide to sell it is hard to get much money out of your gun.

This is not a flame or attack on CZ quality just an observation of market demographics.

SIGs, Brownings, S&W, Glock, Colt, Springifield, most 1911s and Ruger to a lesser extent tend to hold their value far far better. I say Ruger to a lesser exent not because they are poor guns but because most of them already come it at a very respectable price point and in many cases it is hard to compete with the price of a new Ruger with a used one.

Sorry for information overload but it is Monday and I am bored at work and talking guns is just much more fun. Every once in a while I get a day where I post a lot. I guess it is one of those days.

Chris

[Loaded]

Chris. No apologies neccessary. I'm thoroughly enjoying the running dialogue. I'm a "research nut" by nature, so everything I've read so far in this thread has been right on the mark concerning the topic I'm interested in.

Hope to hear more from you and anyone else that would like to offer thoughts and info on the three makes that I have mentioned. Well, two makes now. The FN is out of the picture. Most likely it will be the CZ that I will purchase.

[Coronach]

Well, my HP has jammed precisely twice. They can be very reliable indeed. As with everything, all guns jam, and some more than others. We can debate all day long about which is more reliable and at the end of the day we'll still know nothing. ;)

The FN is a quality gun. As is the CZ. I would say that you would be equally served by either one, and should get the one that feels best in your hand, and puts the holes where you want them.

Mike

[rauchman]

Greetings,

I own or have owned the pistols in question here. I picked up a CZ75SA(single action) in .40,and it has become one of my favorite pistols. I actually used the money from a sold FN Highpower to purchase it. The FN was a really nice pistol, but to get it to where I wanted it would require an additional cost of roughly $300 + dollars. The CZ seemed to do it in a more erognomically correct (for me) pistol. EXCELLENT accuracy. I can often put 5 rounds into one ragged hole at 15 yards. The FN Highpowers are known for being very accurate as well, however, it's not going to have the trigger that the CZ has.

On Sigs, as others have said here, they are arguably the best DA/SA pistol out there. The U.S. Navy Seals, British SAS are just 2 elite forces that use them.....not a bad endorsement. Excellent ergo's, accuracy, reliability, and probably the best DA trigger out of the box. Any of the Sig pistols are great shooters. I've shot the 226 in .40 and bar none, it was the best handling pistol out of any .40 that I've shot. The difference is cost.

Sig 226 9mm: Brand new, I've seen them up to $750, I think they average around $700 new. CDNN has them used at under $400. You may want to post a question as to what kind of shape these are in.

CZ75B: I think these can be found for around $400 give or take $25. The SA (single action only) models tend to run around $50 more. I bought mine for $467 out the door. Not a great price, but not the worst either. I want to get another in 9mm.

FN Highpower: I bought the Mark III for somewhere around $610 out the door. You can get some really good clones from Argentina and Europe for under $400 as well. To get a really good trigger on a Highpower, expect to take the magazine disconnect safety out and shell out some bucks for a trigger job. Someday, I'll get another one and have it setup the way I want.

Hope this helps

[faustulus]

Loaded,
All the Sigs are traditional double action guns (they can be had in double action only but are rare) if you are looking into cocked and locked either the CZ75 or the Hi Power is the way to go. Avoid the CZ75 BD if you dont' want a double action gun as this model cannot be carried C&L.
Price wise the CZ wins hands down. It is probably the best pistol for the price on the market, (it is one of the best pistols on the market reguardless of price for that matter.)
The Hi Power will cost a bit more. Depending on what you will be doing with the gun...
I carry a Hi Power more than any other of my firearms.
The CZ 75 SA I use to shoot ESP class in IDPA.
CZ does make a compact version which can be carried cocked and locked, but it still has the steel frame. They make a alloy frame (read lighter) but it is a double action called the PCR. (and the only reason I don't own one.)

[PCRCCW]

Correction!!!!!!!!!!!! CZ's dont hold there value? You compared it to RUGER....I see used rugers sell for 200$ around here....used CZ's sell for damn near what a new one sells for!.................

Shut down your computer and get out more! :neener:

This is the non cocked and locked, alloy framed, 15 round of 9mm, CZ Compact, tactical vantastical, carry O mine....the PCR.

Shoot wellhttp://www.imageseek.com/hbeleather/gallery/albums/custom/P1010019.sized.jpg

[cslinger]

Easy there buddy.

I was really going on local demographics. There are pockets of people who will buy any CZ sight unseen and groupd who wouldn't buy one of them thar commie guns if it was only a dollar. I am going on personal experience. CZs can be harder to sell then other makes.

I did make the comment that Rugers tend to have low resale value mostly because they have low starting value and therefore it is hard to justify buying a used P95 when you can whip on down to Academy Sports and pick up a new one for 30 bucks more.

CZs are spectacular guns and seem to finally be getting the word out to the masses but they simply don't have the name recognition that some of the other brands do yet. Now everybody who I have ever met who is in the know or professionally involved with firearms will tell you that CZs are some of the finest guns in the world and I concur. The problem is making some of the less educated believe that a CZ could possibly be as good a gun as a Glock or Sig or S&W.

Remember there are a lot of gunnies out there who are very similar to car people in they are very brand loyal.

Just a personal observation, I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with CZ just that everything has some pros and some cons.

Chris

[axeman_g]

I currently own a CZ 85 Combat dual tone and a FN P35 Police Model with SFS.

Side by side comparison, the P35 is a little thinner, lighter and smaller. Easier to carry. The P35 does not have as nice as finish as the 85 Combat, but that is related to the model being a Police version. The components and machine work is a touch nicer, not a rough spot to be found.

The 85 is so very accurate. The ambi controls are nice for me, I am a lefty. But after it is all said and done, the HiPower as won my heart. It is more accurate, the trigger is the same, the grip angle and lends itself to natural pointing, the access and mags are so cheap and holsters can be found anywhere.

Cost, my 85 was $400 exactly. The FN was $450. It is definetly worth the difference, and that is not saying anything against the CZ. It was my first combat handgun, and I cherish it. The the HIPO just outshines it in all the little things that a gun must do and be.

[faustulus]

and groupd who wouldn't buy one of them thar commie guns if it was only a dollar.
Oh come on cslinger, we both know any gun enthusist would pay a dollar for just about any gun. Heck the thoughts of what he can sell it for and what to replace it with will be dancing through his head before the bill leaves his wallet. :)

[WonderNine]

Well it just so happens I handled a new CZ-75 SA at the gun store tonight. Priced at $449.99. I've checked out the CZ75's before and they felt strange, kinda cheap. Well this SA was no different. I was really expecting the CZ SA to have this wonderful trigger that I keep hearing from CZ owners, but that was not the case.

It felt very gritty and EXTREMELY creepy. It was light though. I'd say 4-5 pounds. A gritty creepy trigger is not something you buy single action pistols for and that was an immediate turnoff. Also the grip angle on the CZ's is very strange.

The finish was ok. Not ugly, but not very attractive either. Just a flat black. It was sitting right next to a new blued Browning Hi-Power Standard priced at $699 :rolleyes:. The grip of the CZ is quite a bit bigger and longer and the gun itself is bigger, yet it holds basically the same amount of ammo. The HP holds 13, 15, or 17 while the CZ holds 15-16. My impression was the same as when I first handled a CZ75 double action. The impression that it was just seemed 'cheap' and 'commie' even though commie has little to do with it. I didn't particularily like the safety either, big and blocky. And the angle of the grip seemed to make the CZ slippery in the hands.

A while ago I was interested in the CZ75 SA, but now I know I'll never own one. HP much much much better. It's not overly difficult to find a nice Browning in the $400-$500 range.

I was just cleaning my 82' Belgian Browning HP and admiring what a great gun it truly is before it went back into its Bianchi Pistol Pocket :) .

[WonderNine]

On a side note I saw a CZ75 BD on Gunbroker several months ago. NIB for $300 + $10 shipping and $15 transfer fee from my local FFL. I'm glad I didn't bid.

[PCRCCW]

CS........cmon buddy....lighten up :D :rolleyes: I love both the HP and CZ..most people who like either, usually love both.

wondernine. The CZ and HP have pretty much the same grip angle and feel.....But the HP seemed better to you and the CZ just didnt feel right.....:scrutiny: Hey to each there own.
Mind you the grip is bigger by a bit and longer...but other than that the guns are very similar ergonomically.

As far as the trigger...yep, you got a bad one. Most CZ triggers are not that bad...but a bad SA trigger will clean up ALOT within a couple of hundred rounds. The PLASTIC trigger I DONT LIKE, it adds to the creep with a slight amount of flex and doesnt have the reset adj. screw.
Most of the time the triggers, at least IMO, are better than the bad ones like Ive seen and the one you happened across.

Shoot well....

[WonderNine]

The CZ grip felt like a piece of pipe bent in the middle. There's no bend in the HP grip. The CZ grip was fatter as well.

I didn't notice if the CZ trigger was plastic. I guess it could have been, but I didn't pay attention to that. I forget about looking for plastic parts on new guns, I'm looking at everything else. Gotta remember that next time.

[faustulus]

On offense wondernine but my hi power's grip is bent, or at least not straight like a 1911.

[WonderNine]

Hello faustulus, I meant that the CZ grip seems like it's bent in the middle. I'm not talking about the angle that CZ, 1911 and HP grips are at.

[faustulus]

Wondernine,
Ah, ok. I think the CZ grip is a bit like the glock, you love it or hate it (not that it is same angle or anything)
Although secretly I wonder how people can shoot glocks. :)
Out of curiosity do ususally use a high hand hold?