Help choosing a 9mm 1911 for USPSA shooting

[Brenainn]

Hi all,

I am new to this so bare with me! :D:):o

Here’s the deal… Hopefully I can get some advice, etc.
I am looking for a good 1911 9mm for eventual competition in USPSA. I want to start out by getting a quality gun. I don’t want to have to upgrade a lot. I don’t know exactly what I should be looking for as far as specifics, features and details. However, I do have preferences.

It needs to be:

Reliable
Accurate (obviously)
All steel (NO polymer)
1911 style
Non-fixed sights
Preferably not smaller than a 5” barrel (open to suggestions)

Not knowing all the specifics of the USPSA rules and allowances yet, how limited would I be in a competition (if at all) if I bought a 1911 9mm? I will eventually like to get a .45, but 9mm is what I can afford to shoot at the time.

Here is what I am leaning towards, but since I don’t really know what I am doing, I am going on opinions from message boards and personal preference of the looks. I have not actually held all of them. I did shoot a Springfield that I liked a while back, but it was an older model and I can’t remember what it was.

Kimber Stainless Target II 9mm Steel frame, bushing, ramped match grade 5" barrel (a plus!), adjustable sights, Recoil spring 12lb.

Kimber Tactical Pro II 9mm 4” barrel, Steel slide, 4" Bushingless bull barrel, ramped, recoil spring 14lb. DOWNSIDES: fixed sights & ALUMINIM Frame

Kimber Pro Carry II 9mm 4” barrel, frontstrap checkering, checkering under trigger guard, ramped, Magwell trigger, Ambi thumb safety, Recoil spring, Bushingless bull barrel. DOWNSIDE: ALUMINUM FRAME & fixed sights,

Kimber Custom Aegis II 5” barrel, recoil soring 12 lbs, front strap checkering, steel match barrel, stainless match grade bushing, ramped. DOWNSIDE: ALUMINUM Frame & fixed sights


Springfield Px9130Lp 5” barrel, match grade barrel and bushing, all stainless, DOWNSIDE: fixed sight
Springfield PI9134LP 5” barrel, match grade barrel and bushing, fully supported ramp, adjustable rear Dovetail front target sights.
Springfield 5” Service Stainless Steel


What is bushing and bushingless and ramped? What is best for comp.?

I am only going with Springfield and Kimber because they are basically the only 1911 9mms with half decent reputations that I could find. Actually, they may be the ONLY 9mm 1911s made.

Some of these pistols are pricey, but I keep thinking I might be able to find a deal on one out there. I also want to get a quality gun right off the bat. I want a gun that will last me for as long as I am alive, so I don’t want to start out with cheap. On the other hand I really, really can’t go MORE than $1,000 and would preferably rather go for the $600 - $800 range. It's still a stretch for me, but I know the right gun is worth it and I think of it as a good investment. However, I like to keep an open mind – which is why I put a top limit of $1,000.

Any ideas or comments, etc? Thanks in advance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

I Have ruled these non-1911s out
Kahr – LOVE the grip, but not reliable.
Springfield XD – grip too big
Most Rugers – grip too big
Glock – nice gun, but grip too big

[Dilbert]

I often shoot a Springfield Armory 1911 9mm in IDPA. The gun is accurate, and has low recoil due to the size of a 1911 vs. the small 9mm round. The gun from the factory has an okay trigger with good adjustable sights. That said, I have sent mine to Wilson Combat to be worked over. Fiber optic front sight, checkered front strap, lap the slide, trigger work, bead blast finish, and mag funnel - that's all I remember that I told them to do,,,,,,,,,,, but I may be forgetting something.
I wish I had gotten a Wilson Combat KZ in 9mm to start with (www.wilsoncombat.com). That's a poly 1911 (15 rounds I think) that's as slim as a steel 1911 in the grip. Depending how you spec it out, and where you get it, it will be a little over your $1000 limit, but it would be a much better gun. My Springfield started out at about $800, but I'm having to spend another $600 or so to get it up to my standard.

[Zak Smith]

Make sure you know what you're getting into, and why. I say this because a 9mm "1911" pattern pistol does not fit competitively into the USPSA rules:

* it can't make major (by definition) in Limited and Limited-10

* you evidently aren't talking about an Open division "1911" shooting 9mm Major

* 1911's are not legal in Production division.

Now there's nothing wrong with buying a gun that you want for whatever reason, and shooting it in whatever USPSA division you want, albeit at a competitive disadvantage.

As for the pistols you mention, I don't have any experience with them. I do have an SV/STI double-stack "2011" in 9x19 for practical matches that do not distinguish between Major and Minor Power Factor, and I'd do it again just the same.

-z

[Navy joe]

Good to see you gearing up! :)

9mm 1911 is not really where it is at. The single stack 1911 fits into USPSA single stack or Limited-10 categories. Both require a minimum of .40 cal bullet diameter to make major.
9mm is getting used in two places ; Open where it is loaded to 165 power factor and shot out of double stack 1911 derivatives complete with dot sight, compensator, and four figure price tag. The other place is Production class where you need to be a double action to play.

Now you can get a 9mm 1911 and still compete, you just get scored at minor power factor which may matter to you as you progress and want to be competitive. I shot a 9mm Glock for a little while in Limited just because I wanted to do something different for a little while.

Otherwise, if you are wedded to the 1911 idea get a .40 or .45 and "bite the bullet" on ammo prices. Now would be a good time to learn reloading too!

If you have to go with 9mm due to price get a 9mm that is approved to compete in Production class.

I hope you are at least going to attend that charity match Asheville practical shooters is putting on right? Helping out a match is a great way to learn all about it. Jump in and shoot too, my first match was a 500rd count 3 gun affair. Never forget it.

[Navy joe]

As an afterthought, here is the approved gun list for USPSA Production class from www.uspsa.org. Maybe if you like the 1911 platform you could think about the Para LDA series which fits into Production and into your 9mm 1911 criteria?

US Production Gun List

This list is maintained by USPSA as a separate and distinct list from the IPSC list. If you are going to shoot a match outside the United States, please consult the production list at www.ipsc.org
Make Model
ALFA-PROJ Alfa Combat 9mm, Alfa Combat 40 S&W, Alfa Combat 45 ACP, Alfa Defender 40 S&W, Alfa Defender 45 ACP, Alfa Defender 9mm
ARMSCOR AP9, AP9MS, APP9, APP9MS
BAIKAL MP446 Viking
BERETTA 8000 Mini, 8000DL, 8000FL, 8000LP, 8040 Mini, 8040D, 8040F, 8045 Mini, 8045D, 8045F, 8357D, 8357F, 9000S Type D, 9000S Type F, 92, 92 Custom Carry, 92 EL, 92 Elite 1A, 92 Steel, 92 Stock, 92D, 92D Centurion, 92DS, 92F, 92FS, 92FS, 92FS Brigadier, 92FS Centurion, 92FS Deluxe, 92G, 92G Centurion, 92G Elite, 92G Elite II, 92G-SD, 92L Compact, 92L Compact type M, 92S, 92SB, 92SB Compact, 92SB compact type M, 92SB-F, 96, 96 Brigadier, 96 Centurion, 96 Elite 1A, 96 Steel, 96 Stock, 96D, 96D Brigadier, 96D Centurion, 96D Compact, 96D Compact Type M, 96DS, 96FS, 96G, 96G, 96G Brigadier, 96G Elite, 96G Elite II, 96G-SD, 96L Compact, 96L Compact type M, 98 Deluxe, 98 Steel Cougar Series 8000D, 98 Stock Vertec series 92G, 98F, 98FS, 98FS Brigadier, PX4 Storm Type F, PX4 Storm Type G
(no single-action only variants or laser equipped models allowed) (Inox versions of approved models allowed)
BERSA Mini T40, Mini T9, Thunder 40, Thunder 9
BROWNING PRO40, PRO9
BUL Cherokee-full size, Storm
Colt 2000, Double Eagle
Any DAO or DA/SA revolver with a barrel length of up to 8.5" is approved
CZ - CESKÁ STRAKONICE MT9, MT9L, ST9, TT40, TT45, TT9
CZ - CESKA ZBROJOVKA CZ100, CZ100B, CZ101, CZ110, CZ2075 Rami 9mm & 40 S&W, CZ2075 Rami P 9mm & 40 S&W, CZ75, CZ75 Combat II, CZ75 Compact 9mm, CZ75 P01, CZ75 SemiCompact, CZ75 SP-01, CZ75 SP-01 Tactical, CZ75B 9mm & 40 S&W, CZ75B Stainless, CZ75BD, CZ75D Compact, CZ83, CZ85, CZ85 Combat, CZ85B, CZ97B, CZ99
EAA Witness (decocker), Witness (standard steel), Witness-P
FEG P9R, P9RK
FN HERSTAL FNP-40, FNP-40 DAO, FNP-40M, FNP-9, FNP-9 DAO, FNP-9M
Glock 17, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37
(L models are not approved) C models are allowed providing that the barrel is non-ported and the other requirements are met.
GRAND POWER K100 DAO
H&K P2000, P7, P8, P9S, USP, USP Compact, USP Compact Stainless, USP Custom Sport, USP Stainless, USP9SD, VP80Z
HS PRODUKT HS2000 Series, HS357, HS40, HS45, HS9
IMI Barak 40, Barak 45, Barak 9
JERICHO 941FB, 941FBL, 941FS
KAHR K Series 40cal, K Series 9mm, MK Series 40cal, MK Series 9mm, P Series 40 cal, P Series 9mm, PM Series 9mm, T Series 40cal, T Series 9mm, TP Series 9mm
MAGNUM RESEARCH Baby Eagle Compact 40 S&W, Baby Eagle Compact 9mm, Baby Eagle Polymer Compact 40 S&, Baby Eagle Polymer Compact 9mm, Baby Eagle Semi-Compact 9mm Baby, Baby Eagle Standard 9mm, Baby Eagle Standard 40 S&W
NORINCO NP18, NP22, NP34, NP40, NZ75, NZ85B
PARA-ORDNANCE LDA
(all models except variants with enlarged magwells)
Ruger K94/95, KP345, KP345PR, KP89, KP90, KP93, KP95, P85, P89, P90, P91, P94, P95, P97, SR9 in 9MM
S&W 1006, 1066, 39, 3913, 3913L, 3913TSW, 3914, 3953, 3953STSW, 4006, 4013TSW, 4043, 4046, 4053TSW, 410, 439, 4506, 4513TSW, 4553TSW, 4566, 457, 4586, 59, 5904, 5906, 5946, 659, 669, 6906, 6946, 908, 910, M&P 357Sig, M&P 40, M&P 45 ACP, M&P 9mm, Sigma models Compact SW9V, SW40C, SW40F, SW40V, SW40VE, SW99, SW9C, SW9F, SW9M, SW9VE
(Any DAO or DA/SA revolver with a barrel length of up to 8.5" is approved)
SARSILMAZ Hancer 2000, Hancer 2000 Light, Kilinc 2000 Light
SIG P2009, P220, P220-1, P220RST, P225, P226 AL-SO, P226 Blackwater, P226 Equinox, P226 SAS, P226 SL-SO, P226 Sport II SL ohne Schiene, P226 Sport Stock, P226 Stainless, P226 X-Five Allround, P226 X-Five Tactical, P226 Xpress, P226DAO, P226R, P226R DAK, P226R Two Tone, P226SL, P226SL Black, P226ST, P228, P229, P229RST, P239, P239RST, SP2022, SP2340, SPC2009
No SAO (Single action only) versions are approved.
SPHINX 3000 Standard Series Stainless, 3000 Standard Series Target, 3000 Tactical Series Stainless, Titanium
Springfield 357SIG 3", 357SIG 4", 357SIG 5", 40S&W 3", 40S&W 4", 40S&W 5", 45GAP 4", 45GAP 5", P9, Service model 9mm 3", Service Model 9mm 4", Service Model 9mm 5", Sub-Compact 9mm 4", Sub-Compact 9mm 5", Tactical Model 9mm 3", Tactical Model 9mm 4", Tactical Model 9mm 5", XD 45ACP 4", XD 45ACP 5", XD Sub-Compact 9mm 3"
Ported models are allowed providing that the barrel is non-ported and the other requirements are met.
SPS Compact SP II, Compact SP II Plus, Compact SP III, Police Compact SPII, Police Compact SPII Plus, Police Compact SPIII
STAR M30, Megastar, Ultrastar
STEYR M357A1, M40, M9
TANFOGLIO Combat Sport, Force 38, Force 38F, Force 38F Carry, Force 38L, Force 40, Force 40F, Force 40F Carry, Force 40L, Force 40R, Force 40R Carry, Force 45, Force 45F, Force 45F Carry, Force 45L, Force 45R, Force 45R Carry, Force 921, Force 921F, Force 921F Carry, Force 921L, Force 921R, Force 921R Carry, Force Compact 40, Force Compact 45, Force Compact 921, Force Pro, GT10, GT21, GT21 Baby, GT21 Combat, GT23, GT40, GT40 Baby, GT40 Combat, GT45, L, P19 Combat, P19 Standard, P19L, P21 Combat, P21L, P23, P23L, P38L, P40, P40 Compact, P40F, P40FB, P40L, P40R, P41, P45, P45L, Stock, T94F, T94R, T95F, T95F Stock, T95R, T96F, T96R, T97F, T97L, T97R, TA10, TA10 Compact, TA40FB, TA45, TA45 Compact, TA90 XL2, XL4
(Stock Custom model is NOT approved for Production Division)
Taurus 24/7, 817, 827, M66, P945, PT100, PT101, PT111, PT140, PT145, PT911, PT92, PT940, PT945, PT99
C Models not allowed. Any DAO or DA/SA revolver with a barrel length of up to 8.5" is approved. All listed models must be DAO, DA/SA or with a decocker only. All models listed must be in DAO, DA/SA or with a decocker only.
VEKTOR SP1, SP2, Z88
DAO, DA/SA, Decocker only models
WALTHER P1, P38, P5, P88, P88 Compact, P99, P99AS, P99C, P99DAO, P99QA
WITNESS Witness Elite Stock, Witness P Carry, Witness Polymer, Witness Polymer compact, Witness Steel, Witness Steel compact
(Witness Carry Comp, Gold, Silver and Limited versions are not approved)
ZASTAVA CZ99

[Brenainn]

Wow, thanks for that list. I will read through that in a bit...

So, it's not common to see 9mm in SANCTIONED PS matches?

What COULD I do competitively with a 9mm 1911 in USPSA?

What would you recommended for a newbie to USPSA, that won't break the bank? I am looking to move up and compete pretty seriously. It sounds as if that's not going to happen with a 9mm... ?

As for the charity match, yes, I may attend. Not sure if I will shoot or not, but I may consider it after I have shot with the group for a while and PRACTICED! :)

[dbarale]

Did anybody ever make single stack/10rds mags in 9mm that would allow to compete in Limited 10?

[dbarale]

Brenainn, have you shot with the APSA before? If so, you know that you can try out pretty much anything with enough notice...
As much as I do not like Glocks (I really, really don't...) a used, stock G17 is probably a good way to get started.
Mags and holsters are cheap. The gun will be reliable, and it's probably the most important on a first setup. Failures to feed, fire, eject will cause you a lot of aggravation and will keep you from improving and focusing on your shooting.
When you are ready to move up, they are easy to re-sell with no loss of value.
Another choice would be a steel CZ75 or clone. Their controls are similar to a 1911, they have a pretty decent trigger, are reliable with good mags and are well fitted for the limited category.
I started with a Springfield P9 (another CZ clone) and it was a good introduction. I only sold it to purchase a 625 as I am forever a revolver guy...

[akanotken]

It seems like you've done a lot of reading, and tried a good bit of handguns.

I'll submit the following in an effort to help:
I'm pretty sure ANY gun with a semi decent trigger will be fine for you. Unless it's EXTREME, I'd forget about grip size, you'll learn to shoot it fine! I doubt you are gripping the way you will when you get good (I didn't initially). I swore off glock's because they were ugly and grips were too big. I wish I hadn't, but the same could be said for many of the guns you've rejected.

I'm going to guess that you've latched on to the 1911 because of that delicious trigger ... I know that's why I keep em around. But people are winning with other platforms. For instance, NON 1911's were at the top in the 1911 IDPA category at the nationals level.

So, I'd rethink where you are heading.

If you are going 9mm and definitely USPSA, then go with a production gun .. M&P, XD and Glocks are rocking that world, are very affordable, and there are some SICK (read awesome) trigger jobs for them. Almost like cheating.

If you just like the ergonomics and weight and would like a phenomenal trigger that isn't a single action, that LDA from para is hard to beat.

If you want to shoot a 1911 in USPSA, I echo the advice to get a .45 or .40. If it forces you into reloading (It should if you want to get good! :) ) then it will save you a lot of money over shooting 9mm. Shoot it in the single stack division or limited 10.

If you are dead set on the 1911 in 9mm, I'd suggest IDPA is a game the gun makes better sense in, but if you are set on USPSA I'd make sure you are ready for the frustration. It's not a bad thing, but winning a stage here and there, or having a really good match early on really helps in the motivation. You'll be delaying this. The models you are considering are fine, but I'd go hands down for an STI trojan.

But I think my generic advice for folks entering the sport is to buy a glock35, set it up for limited :
Price this out - Glock35, grip tape, sights, trigger, magwell, dillon press set up for 40, 10K bullets, primers, cases and powder.

Now get a 1911 in 9mm and 10K factory rounds.

You'll shoot these faster than you'd guess. Cutting corners? Hit the gun boards and get the glock for cheap (I wouldn't do that with a 1911 9mm, too many problem guns being ditched).

ETA:
Hmmm, I was typing with the last two posts. The 1911 in 9mm in USPSA penalizes you a lot for misses. Don't kid yourself, there'll be misses. You won't make up time shooting a subcaliber, the guys shooting the .45 are FAST! Google up singlestack uspsa on youtube and I'd guess you'll see ...

[Zak Smith]

Cheapest path is to buy a Glock or other similar 9mm and shoot Production.

[MarshallDodge]

Cheapest path is to buy a Glock....
But I thought he wanted something accurate? :neener: :D

I have a Springfield Loaded 1911 in 9mm and I don't find it as accurate as my Kimber 45. In fairness I have not played with it enough to figure out why.

[Zak Smith]

Well, yeah, but you can't shoot a 1911 in production :D

[Brenainn]

Thanks for the help. I am REALLY, REALLY new at this... I have shot mostly rifles and little revolvers and every once in a while a Glock .40 that my older brother owns, all here on the farm. So, all the info is a bit overwhelming!

I started out just wanting a simple semi-automatic 9mm pistol to practice with for fun here on the farm. I am an auto kind of person and always have been. Then, I found out about USPSA by stumbling across a video on the internet. Never having had anything to do with it or knowing the first thing, found a club, went and shot a little, and got hooked! Now as I am reading up on the sport for the first time, it seems to me that most of the bigger names in competition are using .45ACP. ?

So now, I have a dilemma. My whole plan has gone south. I just wanted a nice 9mm to plink around with, but now I find myself going toward maybe... eventually doing some competing in a sport I hardly know anything about, but LOVE!!!!! Do I spend the money on the nice 9mm that could put a limit to what I do competition wise? Or do I spend the money on something that is more expensive, but will allow me to compete? I could always get both... hmmm... ;) I am thinking I may have to sell off my really nice road bike to afford that... kind of a bummer!

Also, about the Glocks, I know they are durable and reliable and ... But they are just a little more harsh for my own taste. Also, I have never had much luck with really good accuracy. Maybe it was the gun, maybe it was me, I just don't get that "vibe" from them. And I have very small hands so they always rub my hands raw. I don't really know if I want a Tupperware gun as my first either. I have always hated the idea. I think I want to invest in all metal and get started right. Honestly, the Springfields without the Houge grips are too big, but when I shot with Houges, it gave it a totally different feel, so I am definitely going to keep an open mind about things.

SO, what do I buy that allows me to shoot in most if not all categories of USPS? Seems as if it's not the 9mm.

Sorry if I seem to not be "getting it". I am just a wee bit lost in this whole competitive side of things, but am very willing to learn! :)

dbarale, yes, I have shot with APSA before. I may end up taking them up on their offer... I just want to narrow my list down a little more and figure out what I need to do first! How about you? Have you shot with them as well?

[Zak Smith]

Here are the dominant calibers:

Production: 9mm
Limited-10/Limited: .40SW (with a strong following of .45ACP in L-10 for the single-stack 1911 shooters)
Open: .38 Super or some variant

These are chosen to maximize magazine capacity and minimize recoil while still making the most favorable power factor rating in the division (Major for L10/L/Open, Minor for Production).

You CAN shoot whatever caliber you want in the different divisions, however, you may be at a competitive disadvantage with 9mm in Limited and L-10.

[Brenainn]

I think I need to print out the rule book and start reading. Seems like the best idea right now before I jump into getting a particular gun...

One more question... what does one usually look for as far as details and specifics when buying a gun for USPS competitions? What should you stay away from?

[Riss]

Basically in USPSA 9mm is in production class, list is above. OR you could get any one of the guns that are listed in Llimited and switch over to 9mm with a barrel change for plinking. The Glock is great for this because all you need to do to switch from 40 S&W to 9mm is a barrel change. Others on the list like the Beretta 96 in 40 cal may do the same but not all of them.

[dbarale]

Brenainn, are you and Kate the same person?

I am the guy with the weird accent and the big revolver...

What to look for in a first gun?
- Reliabilty (if you are Kate you'll remember how frustrating it was to deal with malfunctions).
- Good sights, a fiber optic front is pretty much the norm for fast shooting.
- Availabilty of holsters and mags, the 1911 is king here but there are quite a few other.
- What feels good to YOU, it doesn't matter what others like. If it works for you that's all that matters...

[jmorris]

A Para p16 would fit your budget and you wouldn’t be at a disadvantage shooting limited (with Dawson basepads) or limited 10. If you really want the 9mm try finding an IDPA club.

[MarshallDodge]

The Glock is great for this because all you need to do to switch from 40 S&W to 9mm is a barrel change.

Are you sure about that? I thought the slide had to be changed also???

[jenrob]

I'm a 1911 person and didn't really like glocks cause of the grips, but my wife has to have one (G22) for duty. I put a couple of rounds through it and just thought yeap it's a Glock. Then I tried it again and forsome reason it seems like a different gun. It's not that bad to shoot and shoots good once you learn a few tricks with it (my grip, trigger reset, ect.).

I don't know how the rules are on mods to your gun but there are (robar) several smiths that will custom the Glock. Like in the grip area and design.

I do think that I would step up and get a 40S&W over the 9mm, and start reloading. From your post above you stated budget that means that you will also have a budget on your ammo. If you are going to shoot competitive you are going to basically need an endless supply of ammo (almost). You can reload 40S&W and 9MM for about the same price. granted you can buy loaded 9mm cheaper than 40 S&W, but shooting comp you will pay for your reloading equipment in short time.

[1911NM]

I am afraid there really is no, one gun, one caliber for USPSA. The divisions were designed to keep specific types of guns, calibers(read power factor), and modifications within guidelines so competitors would not be at a disadvantage say by shooting a single stack 1911 in .45acp against a full race gun in .38 super. Yes, I encourage downloading the rules from the USPSA website, pick a gun you feel comfortable with, settle yourself within a division, ie., production, or Single Stack(if you think you can swing .45acp), then head to the matches, shoot, listen, and above all, practice, practice, practice. I only shot local matches a couple times a month last year, and burned somewhere between 5k and 7k rounds. I try to dry fire practice nightly, but was lax on live fire practice. More of that this year since I gifted myself with a progressive press this winter. Good luck, be safe, and have fun. Also, it would be worth it to look at the Brian Enos forum. Lots of hardcore USPSA'ers there.

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

I don't shoot USPSA.

Reading the posts here, in reference to the rules, I'll make one huge suggestion. Buy the the gun/caliber that's going to put you on a level playing field with other competitors.

If I were to consider a 9mm from the list above, in any sort of competition it was allowed in, also being on a level playing field with others, I would seriously consider a Sig225/226. Prices for used ones are quite reasonable. I am a 1911 fanatic with small hands. I don't like the plastic guns at all. The Sig is neither, and the ones I've shot performed remarkably.

So if you're stuck on 9mm, go handle/shoot one of these to see if you like it. When the budget allows, buy a quality full sized 1911 in .45acp. and jump up to major.

-Steve

[neal7250]

I like a 9 MM:) but I love a 45:)

[skinewmexico]

My advice would be to get something (anything), and start shooting in competition (probably production) before you try to decide. Trying to decide before you start and guess where you'll end up after a few years is an exercise in futility. And a Glock is more than accurate enough for USPSA, you don't have to shoot .3" groups at 25 yards. Your gun will shoot worlds better than you will for.......probably several years.

[Brenainn]

dbarale, yep! That's me. It's kind of weird that we meet again "in here"! It seems that everyone is on the HR! Do you happen to know if Tyrone has an email address by chance? I have some stuff I want to send him...

Cool, thanks everyone. That gives me a lot to go on. I may very well, end up with two pistols. Who knows? I have some more thinking and reading to do though. I have to print that rule book out as well. I'll let you know what I decide! Thanks again...

[dbarale]

And a Glock is more than accurate enough for USPSA, you don't have to shoot .3" groups at 25 yards. Your gun will shoot worlds better than you will for.......probably several years.

I would usually agree with you, however I saw Bremainn shoot and she is good, really good.
In fact I would appreciate if you guys could avoid suggesting that she tries a revolver as I do not want her shooting against me in the same division...

Kate, I'm sending you a PM with Tyrone's email and phone #.

[Brenainn]

Well I appreciate the compliment Daniel, but I still have a long ways to go. I definitely got a little sloppy towards the end, but hey, I was having fun. That's what counts! ;)

[RH45]

If you have your heart set on a 9mm, 1911, get it and shoot it in "single stack" division.
Because you are already shooting "minor" you can use 10 round mags, which is an advantage over "major" which only allows 8 round mags.
If you shoot all A-zone hits, you won't be penalized for shooting minor.

[HZOX221]

For USPSA single stack division a 9mm can be very competitive. You are able to run 10 rounds for minor (9mm or 38 super) vs. 8 rounds for major (40 S&W or 45 ACP). Those two extra rounds can come in handy on a stage.

For guns, I would seriously look at getting a STI Trojan in 9mm.

For mags you can use 38 Super 10 round mags. If you reload yourself you can load the 9mm a little longer to be more reliable in the mags.

But as someone stated above start with what you have and see for yourself what others are using. USPSA shooters are generally very friendly and like to show off their toys. It is a lot better to learn the sport before you buy a new blaster than buying the gun first. Too many shooters buy a gun and find out it is not really what they want or need to compete.

What handguns do you have now?

[akanotken]

I didn't catch the rationale for buying 2 guns? unless you want to start collecting, I'd advise against it. For competition it's much better to just stick with one. Believe me.

There's likely nothing wrong with the glock, and it has to do with learning and modding that trigger. You'll see them in open class and Limited and production ... they are definitely competition worthy. There are limitless supplies of holsters and mag holders so easy to pick up something new or used. And mags are dirt cheap.

See where I'm leaning? :)

The Para P16 can be tweaked to be competitive in the limited division, but everything will be more expensive ... pistol, magwells, magazines are all noticably more. Make sure you are dead set on a metal gun before you go this route.

One last thought, you might limit your search to makes/models that have a .22 conversion kit available?

One last last thought .. as it seems you stumbled onto USPSA, you owe it to yourself to see if there are any IDPA clubs where you live. Very similar in some ways and pretty different in other ways. IDPA has a place to shoot the 1911 in 9mm.

You can do things your own way, but many folks who are starting out do so in IDPA or in USPSA production division.

ETA, look around in this forum and you'll see vid's by yar. He shoot's a glock in the limited division.

[Brenainn]

So, just to be straight in USPSA Competitive shooting...

These all fall under MAJOR comp:
Limited 10 (.40 min. for MAJOR)
Limited (.40 min. for MAJOR)
and Open (pretty much anything goes)

And production falls under MINOR competition,
With a limit of 10 rounds max in mag?

To sum things up, 9mm can be shot in ALL divisions, but to COMPETE in Limited and Limited 10 MAJOR you must use .40 and up?

Also to be clear, what exactly does Major and Minor mean? Is it basically like baseball? Semi pro and pro? Or is it simply caliber?

Probably a dumb question: In Production as far as I can tell Single Action Pistols are not allowed. First shot must be double action. Not knowing much about the "lingo" of gun workings and definitions, would someone mind naming a few SA pistols just so I can get an idea of what that means?

I think I am getting it. The more I read, the more I ask questions and the more I see, the more I learn! Thanks for putting up with me. I'll be out of your hair soon, I hope!

[IndianaBoy]

I'm going to ignore one aspect of your criteria..... the 1911 part.


Get a CZ 75B or 75BD. You can shoot limited with the 75B loaded to capacity and cocked and locked, or you can shoot production with the 75BD loaded to 10 rounds.

You are getting into a platform designed for the 9mm, and for substantially less money than those Kimber 1911s you are looking at. The ergonomics of the CZ 75 are incredible, even more svelte than the 1911 in the hand. The CZ 'fits' the hand.

Triggers come from the factory less than stellar. Mine smoothed out with lots of shooting, and lots more dryfire practice. I went to a slightly lighter mainspring from Wollf Gunsprings, and it is fantastic in both DA and SA.

Incredible reliability. Most of the guns I have seen at our USPSA shoots are reliable. I have seen glocks go down because of mag failures. It was not a design flaw... the mag was full of mud and grit from a muddy 3 gun match at CMMG.

I have seen a few failures in an XD 40, but I think it was the guy's reloads.

My CZ has been VERY reliable.


I eliminated the magazine brake by removing it, straightening it, and reinstalling it. My mags now drop free... in fact they squirt out of the gun with gusto.



You don't need adjustable sights for USPSA. Especially on cardboard sights. The toughest accuracy requirements are racks of steel and occasional forced headshots. Most guns come with fixed sights adjusted well enough to shoot USPSA just fine. If they need to be adjusted, it is a one time thing.



Get yourself some Mec-Gar's and a CZ... you will be into the game and having fun for a lot less coin than a pricey 1911.


The guys out there shooting glocks are having just as much fun as the guys shooting STIs... probably more fun because of fewer magazine changes. ;)

[IndianaBoy]

Don't worry about making major.

Major and minor is not a big deal unless you are trying to win competitions.


Major and minor hits on target are scored the same in the A zone.

If you start to drop shots into the C and D zones then major scores one more point per hit than minor.

Get into the game and have fun and learn.....

Once you get some practice in, decide if it is worth it to you to shoot major.


If you make all your shots Alpha... you won't need to shoot major. ;)

[IndianaBoy]

Major and minor are power factors.


You can make major with hot 9mm calibers like 9x23 (I don't think there is a bullet diameter restriction on major being .40+).

If you take one to a match, and want to shoot major, they will chrono some of your loads.


Don't worry about it too much. Getting into the game and having fun is more important initially than shooting major.

You can shoot in all divisions with a 9mm. The only difference is scoring. You get fewer points for shots you drop outside the A zone if you are shooting minor.

[lmccrock]

You can make major with hot 9mm calibers like 9x23
Limited and L10 require a minimum of .40 to make major, so 9x23 (or 38 super and variants, or 9mm loaded major) can only be major in Open Division. So, you can shoot these 9mm bullets and make major, but you will be competing against the race guns with optics, and making your own is required (not many factory ammo loads make Major with 9mm bullets).

Power factor (PF) = bullet weight x velocity / 1000 (grains x fps /1000).

124 grain bullet @ 1100 fps /1000 = 136.4

So, is that enough minutiae for USPSA today? :)

Lee

[Navy joe]

Minor in a major world can hurt. That 1 point difference is 20% in target score. You can hose the head with major and get at least 80% available points, minor you better whack the A box. Good clubs I shoot at regularly feature cruel things like 20 yard head shots and 35 yd US poppers.

http://www.vpc.org/graphics/ipsctarg.gif


Note my cool image source. ;)

[bp78]

USPSA has a new SINGLE STACK division set aside for steel, single stack 1911s.

A 9mm 1911 makes a great IDPA gun for the ESP division. I use my 9mm STI Trojan.

In USPSA, for single stack division and others, you must have a >=.40 to make major. The scoring hurts when shooting minor to compete with others shooting major. In single stack division, you are allowed an extra 2 rounds for minor. So minor allows a 10rd mag vs 8rds for major which might give you some competitive advantage. Most of us haven't found it and shoot major.

A 1911 in 9mm is the perfect IDPA ESP gun but doesn't really have a place in USPSA. It isn't production and will be hurt by minor scoring in both LIMITED 10 and SINGLE STACK.

Try www.brianenos.com forums for more specific competition advice.

[bp78]

SCORING
bullet weight x velocity /1000 = Power Factor
MAJOR > 165PF
MINOR < 165PF but at least 125PF


DIVISIONS:

PRODUCTION
- most double action service pistols (Like SSP in IDPA)
Dominated by Glock 17/34s, M&Ps, CZ75s/SP01.
Everything scored minor regardless of PF.
Holster restrictions exclude game-only rigs.
10RDs in mags only.


SINGLE STACK
steel single stack 1911s. (close to CDP in IDPA)
Dominated by .45acp 1911s.
10rd for MINOR, 8rds for MAJOR
Holster restrictions exclude game-only rigs.



LIMITED 10
just about anything goes except optics.
10RD limit in any mag.
Dominated by STI/SVI 2011s and GLOCK 35s and some 1911 single stacks running 10rd CMC PowerMag's
MAJOR must be .40 or bigger.
Gamey CR Speed holsters that allow a scoop-like draw allowed.


LIMITED
just about anything goes except optics.
Dominated by 21+rd STI/SVI 2011s and GLOCK 35s and some 1911 single stacks running 10rd CMC PowerMag's
MAJOR must be .40 or bigger.
Gamey CR Speed holsters that allow a scoop-like draw allowed.
Mags limited to 140mm long.


OPEN
nearly anything goes including optics and major PF 9mm.
Dominated by red-dotted 38super and 9mm major guns with compensators and near 30rd mags up 170mm. Typically a $3000+ rig.
Gamey CR Speed holsters that allow a scoop-like draw allowed.

[akanotken]

Lots of stuff to keep track of, isn't it!

You asked for SA examples.

Any gun designed to only be carried "cocked and locked". Examples are the 1911 and browning hipower. It is possible to find versions of other pistols with a single action only mechanism (I.E. CZ 75 SA).

There are guns which can be carried either cocked and locked, or double action first shot. These will work for USPSA production as long as they start decocked/hammer down (thereby needing a double action first shot).

The LDA trigger from Para is a way to get the ergonomics of the 1911 with a trigger that allows it to be used in production. I believe the LDA was developed so Para would have a gun that could work in IDPA's SSP, USPSA's production (I'm not aware of the exact chronology) and more importantly that police could chose. I understand that police are being required to chose pistols that aren't carried cocked and locked.

[txgolfer45]

Get an STI Trojan in 9mm. I have one on order. www.stiguns.com

[Brenainn]

So here is an update.

I think I have decided to just get a Glock TYPE 9mm pistol, for Production. NOT a Glock, but similar. IDEAS? Remember, it must be ALL metal. I will get a 1911 .45ACP also to satisfy my 1911 kick. Probably a SA Loaded model.

I'll go with which ever one comes along first at a better deal. I am already buying the reloading components for .45 anyway. Hopefully it REALLY IS cheaper to reload.


Can this be used in production? It is advertised more for IPCS.
SIG P226 Competition (http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=38&productid=143) Is this pistol somewhere around $1,500? If so, there is no way.:what:

I like Para, but they don't have any non-1911 9mms for comp. :(

I like this CZ 75-SP01 (http://www.czusa.com/product_detail.php?id=74), but I want adjustable sights. AND stainless. ALSO, I want the Hogue type rubber grips for Springfield 1911s w/finger grooves, but I haven't found anyone making them for the CZ. Anyone know if they do? :(

[bp78]

That Sig X5 Competition is a gun without a division. Too heavy for IDPA, not production legal in USPSA and would be at both a capacity disadvantage & minor PF in limited division.

The CZ SP01 is USPSA Production legal, with some lightening, it is IDPA SSP legal. Most local matches will not split hairs and will let you shoot it how it comes. I like mine although I haven't but my STI Trojan down long enough to use the SP01 for more than 2 or 3 matches:
http://www.czshooters.com/f/viewtopic.php?t=1310
A CZ75-SP01 with Adj Sites, competition hammer (for smoother trigger) (http://czcustom.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=77&products_id=297&osCsid=687cde0d0f19b460449f635273bf3fff)
http://czcustom.com/catalog/images/sp01_lpa_lrg.jpg
http://czcustom.com/catalog/images/CZSP01Custom.jpg

A CZ75 is another choice, available in stainless if you like. Adjustable sites are available although they really aren't required for USPSA/IDPA shooting.
http://www.cz-usa.com/products_handguns.php
http://www.cz-usa.com/data/productimg/main072.png

[txgolfer45]

STI Trojan in 9mm. I have one on order!

[Brenainn]

So I could use a 9mm Para in production, or does it specifically have to be LDA? I like these, but don't know which is the best and they are not LDAs:

PARA RX189E 9MM LTRL 5IN DAO BLK (http://www.impactguns.com/store/770752242804.html)

PARA TX189E 9MM AS 5IN 18R STLH (http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-13641.html)

PARA DX189S 9MM 3D 5IN 18R SS (http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-13637.html)

PARA TX189S 9MM AS 5IN 18R STRL (http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-13642.html)

PARA DX189E 9MM 3D 5IN 18R SS (http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-13636.html)

[Brenainn]

I am so lost. Someone, PLEASE name a couple of good 9MM pistols that I could use for USPSA that are ALL METAL! Not knowing what I am doing and trying to figure all this out just gets me more and more confused.

I need an ALL METAL, full sized 9mm, High capacity if possible, for not more than $600 if possible, that can be shot in USPSA matches.

I have decided to skip the whole 1911 9mm thing and just go for something I can shoot in Production.

I'll get the .45ACP to go in the other categories. I've pretty much decided on a SA Loaded for that.

[atek3]

listen to bp78, CZ's are good guns, all steel, 9mm, and good in production.

[Brenainn]

I just found this USPSA pistols for Production list. As I have said, I really want an all metal full size (5"), so keeping that in mind which might be the best on this list?

Production gun list. (http://www.uspsa.net/rules/production_list.php)

CZ was one of my favs. I may end up going with one, but I want to make sure I have covered all of my bases.

I promise I will quit with the questions... ;)

[dbarale]

Brenainn,
The CZ is pretty much your only option. Sigs are nice and can be found at a decent price but the grip frame is quite large and it's a long reach to the trigger.
There's also the EAA/Tanfoglio Witness line, pretty much same as a CZ but with a slightly larger frame as they discontinued the 9mm frame.
I know you said all metal but you really have to try the Springfield XD9.
The grip frame is amazingly comfortable for a double stack gun and they are just totally reliable. "On target", the indoor range in Asheville, has one for rent, definitely worth a trip for you.

Edit: I'm an idiot, forgot the Berreta 92... That's another option, affordable too.

Edit II: A really cheap way to start would be a S&W 59 series, stainless, hi-cap, reliable, cheap mags, inexpensive gun and you can even get them with adjustable sights. Not the best trigger though...

[akanotken]

You said

"I like this CZ 75-SP01 , but I want adjustable sights. AND stainless. ALSO, I want the Hogue type rubber grips for Springfield 1911s w/finger grooves, but I haven't found anyone making them for the CZ. Anyone know if they do?"

Adj sights aren't really needed, and could be added later.

I'd guess that you could get a generic sized finger groove hogue grip ... but most people end up with stippling or skateboard tape.

Why stainless? Stainless can rust, and a light wipe down with clp will keep your finish fine in either metal...

As for Para's ... Yea, it has to be an LDA. Great choice too, IMO.

[Navy joe]

:banghead: I posted that production gun list way back at the front of this. :D

Any reason you don't like the Para LDA? 1911ish, 9mm, good for production.

If you're not going there and want all metal I third the CZ recommendation. Might be able to find a used one and get all your holsters. pouches, and spare mags for less than 600.

Why the all steel? Personal preference? As a Glock guy I can say they are lightweight but the flexi-flyer frame soaks up recoil nice.

[Brenainn]

double...

[Brenainn]

I have decided that I DO like this Para LDA Tac-Five (http://www.para-lda.com/ldaCarryHiCap.html). It's supposed to be acceptable for Production. A little more expensive than I hoped for, but if it's worth it, I could consider. It holds 18+1 rounds, but says a 10-round restricted capacity option is also available. I guess I'd have to go with that to compete? I was hoping I could get a high capacity 9mm, but it looks as though I couldn't use it in USPSA.

Stainless Steel was a preference. I mostly just want all metal.
So were adjustable sights.

dbarale, yeah, I am starting to figure that out. I have heard that they have larger grips than most, which would make it a little rough on my small hands, but I suppose I could adapt. I'll look into that S&W.

This whole thing is REALLY frustrating! If I didn't have a budget and knew what I was doing, I don't think I'd be having such a hard time! ;) :)

[dbarale]

Don't worry. No matter what you end up buying, you'll want something else within six months...

[Brenainn]

LOL, that's usually how it is... I was hoping to avoid that, but I guess I won't until I purchase that $2,000 pistol! ;)

Anyway, this was the CZ that I was considering CZ85 Combat (http://www.czusa.com/product_detail.php?id=42) It has what I want and is on the list of acceptable Production pistols. I didn't think I could get more than 10 mag capacity and this one has 16, but again, it's on the approved list, so it must be fine.

[bp78]

Before you buy a new Para, go talk to some folks that compete who you trust. Or go ask on the competition specific forums at: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/ Their "Power-Extractor" has a less than stellar track record with people that shoot a lot. And being a proprietary part, you're essentially stuck with a Para replacement. No aftermarket solutions, like an Aftec extractor, which normal 1911s use.

On any of the CZ75's, capacity is up to 19rounds (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=157778) but using the SP-01 magazines. I bought my SP01, slightly used, with grips & extra mag for $460. It's a bargain for a highly respected pistol which is very competitive. The SP-01 custom pistols I post earlier at more expensive but you can add those parts & work at a later time.

[dbarale]

What I really like about the CZ is that you can shoot:
- Production by loading 10 in the mags (doesn't matter if it holds 16 as long as you only load 10) and starting with a double action first round.
- Limited 10 by loading 10 and starting cocked and locked in single action.
- Limited at full capacity and frist shot SA.
It also has a "small hand friendly" grip frame. I know you liked the Hogue wraparound on the Springfield but you'll probably want something a lot smaller on the CZ. Factory grips with skate tape on the front strap usually works fine for people with smaller hands.

[MarkF45]

"I am so lost. Someone, PLEASE name a couple of good 9MM pistols that I could use for USPSA that are ALL METAL! Not knowing what I am doing and trying to figure all this out just gets me more and more confused.

I need an ALL METAL, full sized 9mm, High capacity if possible, for not more than $600 if possible, that can be shot in USPSA matches.

I have decided to skip the whole 1911 9mm thing and just go for something I can shoot in Production.

I'll get the .45ACP to go in the other categories. I've pretty much decided on a SA Loaded for that."

To answer your question directly, here are some all-steel pistols that I would consider using in USPSA Production or IDPA Stock Service Pistol:

CZ 75
SIG 226 (not the X-5, but the regular version)
Para P-18 LDA
Beretta 92
Walther P88

I'm sure somebody will be happy to point out all of the flaws of those pistols, but they will work for the match. How "competitve" they are is a matter of opinion. Just get one, and get out there and shoot the match. As you get some experience, you'll probably decide you want something else, regardless of what you get now.

I've shot 5 different guns in IPSC over the years (and many people have shot way more different guns than that). The last gun I shot in IPSC is a Kimber 9mm 1911, which several people have pointed out isn't "competitive". Think I care? I'm still learning how to be a better shot, after 30 years, and I bet I have more fun than most of the people who want to be "competitive".