[sm]

Dave and others I have looked here:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106952

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70599

I had a question came up about the fixed chokes on Serious/ Police Guns, standard 18-20" . He wanted to know the difference , if any in the old issued versus the new issue of today. Primarily the 870. Frankly I don't know if there is one. IIRC the old was cyl bore...but had wee bit of constriction, the few I recall actually measuring.

He asked if a difference existed b/t the two and also asked about normal expected results in using slugs and 00. What are you guys getting at what yardage?

I haven't shot a new issue. I had better luck with the 9 pellet 00 and the old rifled slug, in the older ( as he puts it) 870's and model 37's.

I suggested he buy a trade in and not worry about it. BA/UU/R
Save some money, it will be smoother in the action, won't have that silly lock on the safey ( that is if the new police version have it),and generally worry of dings and such on a new one alleviated.

If the money is burning a hole in his pocket and antsy,buy the new one.
I really doubt a difference exists. For serious I'd get fixed and not worry about it-just test to see what the gun prefers as a diet.

Thoughts?

[Dave McCracken]

SWEG,in 90% of Crisis Management Situations, choke is irrevelant. Ranges run from short to contact distance. The real world always has exceptions.

Remington's Cylinder bores in the late 70s had 2 to 5 POC of choke. This was a holdover from paper case and fiber wad days when the ammo NEEDED a few POC to tighten the groups. This was where the old one inch per yard of buck spread myth started, and like many myths, there's a speck of truth in it.

Modern ammo with the standardized plastic cases and wads,better burning powders and primers of more consistent brisance show improvement at closer ranges. Typical 15 yard patterns as of 3 years ago from a chokeless barrel run 10-12 inches with 9 pellet buck, and a standard load of 1 buck at that distance ran ess than 13". Estate R/R 00 on that test ran 15-20 at 25 yards, IIRC. The Winchester stuff, my old duty round, ran 20-24".

Most recent Police style 870s I've seen are of IC persuasion. I doubt this will make much difference with either buck or slugs. It'll shrink patterns a few inches with buck no doubt, and alugs are a crap shoot.

A decent slug shooter with good bench technique can get 3-4", 50 yard groups from at least one common slug and a plain bead sighted Police style 870(and other of the Big Four). With upgraded sights,like a peep or red dot type, easily 2-3".

Given the myriad idiosyncrasies shotguns exhibit, I'd not regard choke as nearly as crucial as other factors, but I fervently urge everyone to test their gun/choke/load combination BEFORE betting their life on it.

[sm]

Dave thanks.
We are on the same page then. I was remembering 2 POC myself. If I had to live with only one fixed choke for everything, I could live with open bore.
I can pattern , work loads to obtain the best for that gun for a given task.

I told him to quit being so OCD and reading,gun mags/internet. just get something get it to fit, BA/UU/R

FWIW ,Today I used an old model 870 gunsmith and I use.With a plain front bead only, and a very crisp trigger that breaks at 3.25 #'s . Measures 2 POC and I used my old ammo choices. ( I'd bought a case each of these because they just worked for me, the gun and reason back whenever)

Win XB120025, 2 3/4 " ,1325 fps , 9 pellets of 00 buffered.
Win X12RS15 , 2/3/4" , 1600 fps, 1 oz rifled HP.

So today ~ 15 yds :

I used different color picnic plates,6" inside a 9" against silhouette target. I do this for my eyes to focus , the aim small - miss small theory, and to quickly see and reference pattern, POA/POI. I know its weird just something I came up with years ago doing a lot of PB testing and not wanting to always walk back and forth.

I managed to keep the first shot inside the 9" paper plate once --measured 8.25"( I must have held tight on that one :) )the other 9 rds I fired varied 9.5"-11".

So I walked off 50 steps ( my stride=50 yds) using a sling as we discussed earlier, sat on my butt and used knees.( I call it cross-legged) I managed 3.5" with 5 rds. Kneeling I did 4.5". So I then decided to run back after setting up another target, grab --load in a hurry standing, with weak hand sliding against/into sling tightened against weak hand/wrist/forearm and as quick as I could fire...Hey I kept all the slugs on the 9" plate. I pulled one bad I mean real bad, toss that one I'd would of had a nice 7" "cluster".. Just wanted to see what I could do in a hurry and having to run aquire load and fire.

So as I aready knew...it ain't the guns, its the load the gun likes for intended purpose and range...and the weak link being rusty 'ol me.

No bells, whistles , optics , just and old ugly leather sling, wood-stocked gun with the old blue/black matte finish. Maybe this will help someone get an idea as to loads, distance...and potential of a serious SG.

I had fun , and If I'm ever attacked by 9" paper plates...

"Good shooters are made--not born" --Misseldine

[Dave McCracken]

Same page, maybe same paragraph.

'Cept for trap and pass shooting dove, I could do almost all of my shotgunning with a Cylinder bore, assuming ammo selection and a cone of 1 1/2". Even without the cone, 20-25 yard shots are in the zone. With, make that 25 to 30.

Modern ammo makes choke redundant to some degree. Developed to make up for bad performance from the older stuff,tight chokes are oft counterproductive with state of the art stuff.

#6, the 1955 Full Choke 870 bought recently, has 40 POC in the barrel. I'm keeping it as is for sentimental reasons, but taking 25 POC out of that super tight choke would make a much more versatile shotgun. Looking for another barrel even as we speak.

I'd also, in a match with some young upstart with an Ubershotgun vs you and that box stock 870, have my betting money firmly behind you. Software beats hardware, BA/UU/R beats the whole Wilson catalog....

[sm]

Dave, I'm humbled Sir, thank you.

Pass shooting doves and trap agree on tightening up. I have more trigger time in skeet by far, then 5 stand and S/C. I can 'get by' in trap just didn't focus and spend a lot time with it.

IIRC I last shot trap with a 20 ga. Returning from a trip, needed a pit stop, range was up ahead. Chewing the fat , talked into shooting, with borrowed stuff. Fella wanted me shoot his latest addtion. Model 12 with mod bbl. I managed 18/25 in street clothes, had to buy the cokes. I still came out ahead tho'. ;) You know exactly what I mean.

[Dave McCracken]

I know EXACTLY what you mean. Very good, sir.

Give me a day or two, I've some thoughts on this that need some work before posting.