Do you avoid going to countries that don't respect RKBA?


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jlbraun
February 14, 2008, 01:04 PM
Because you can't carry there?

Because of moral reasons?

For whatever reason?

Explain in thread.

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K3
February 14, 2008, 01:13 PM
I'd go for a vacation to just about any country that seemed interesting, regardless of their view on RKBA.

Here at home is another matter. No Illinois, New York, or California for me.

Hard to explain, but here goes: To me, going to say, Germany or Russia would be a once in a lifetime thing, and there are things there that you just can't see here in the US. It's worth a week or two of not being able to carry. Going to California? Meh. There are other states that have similar attractions that do respect RKBA.

3pairs12
February 14, 2008, 01:18 PM
I avoid going to other countries. Don't like Mexico, although have been dove hunting there, and Canada seems to cold. Flying over the ocean to get anywhere else not for me.

apocryph
February 14, 2008, 01:20 PM
That would mean practically every country I would visit.

I had the great fortune to be born American. I am still an American because America is still, on balance, the most free nation I can think of.

I like visiting other countries (even the UK! :what:), though as a practical matter it means being disarmed for the duration of my visit. That said, I would never move anywhere that disarmed me, be it the PRK or the DPRK.

Roman756
February 14, 2008, 01:20 PM
No,I don't.
If I did my foreign travel options would shrink to almost zero.
I just live with the facts.This a is harsh reality.The way most of the world lives,disarmed.

Ske1etor
February 14, 2008, 01:43 PM
Countries? I avoid states that don't respect my RKBA....

Gator
February 14, 2008, 01:55 PM
:confused:

What countries allow Americans to carry?

norwegianoperator
February 14, 2008, 01:58 PM
I think many of the European countries allows you to bring your rifle... but to bring a pistol/revolver is very restricted. i Often have that problem in my profession.

xsquidgator
February 14, 2008, 01:58 PM
I'd go for a vacation to just about any country that seemed interesting, regardless of their view on RKBA.

Here at home is another matter. No Illinois, New York, or California for me.

Hard to explain, but here goes: To me, going to say, Germany or Russia would be a once in a lifetime thing, and there are things there that you just can't see here in the US. It's worth a week or two of not being able to carry. Going to California? Meh. There are other states that have similar attractions that do respect RKBA.

My thoughts exactly. Truth be told I'd still rather go on a driving vacation somewhere in the US where CCW is ok, than to go somewhere else outside the US where by definition the gun laws "are the suck". My life won't be worth a plugged nickel though if she-who-must-be-obeyed doesn't get her trip to Italy sometime though, so off I go.

norwegianoperator
February 14, 2008, 02:01 PM
But how is it for a European citizen to bring and wear a gun in the US? I would like to go over for some course in tactical/defense shooting

Cosmoline
February 14, 2008, 02:02 PM
As a foreign tourist my gun rights are pretty much nil everywhere on the planet. That's just something you have to accept. Even if locals have fairly good gun laws, those do not give foreign nationals much. The exception would be for hunting vacations, I suppose. But I can't see any nation allowing tourists from foreign countries to pack concealed firearms around.

I worry more about the secondary impact of strict gun laws, such as petty crime and lawlessness.

But how is it for a European citizen to bring and wear a gun in the US? I would like to go over for some course in tactical/defense shooting

Long guns for sporting are OK I believe, but you have to clear any you intend to bring with customs. If you come over for a course where they provide arms and you just use them on the line, that should also be OK since there's no transfer. But I don't know many places where you could wear a firearm as a foreign tourist. Even in AK, the broad concealed carry law is limited to Alaska residents or holders of recognized CCW permits from states with reciprocity.

DC300a
February 14, 2008, 02:03 PM
I visit other countries but avoid US states that do not respect RKBA

norwegianoperator
February 14, 2008, 02:04 PM
Another thing : very few countries in Europe is unsafe.. Like Norway, we almost don`t have any random murders here... so that will remove your worries.... well, thats in Europe. but i know that you might not wanna walk the streets of Bogotà or Mexico city without a gun ;-)

The Annoyed Man
February 14, 2008, 02:06 PM
With one exception, who lives in Maryland, the rest of my U.S. resident family lives in California. All of my other relatives live in France. Thus, I have no choice but to go to non-RKBA respecting states or countries if I want to visit family. Also, my mother owns property in France and spends part of each year there, so it is convenient for traveling.

That being said, since I can't carry a good knife in carry on luggage, I make it a point to purchase a decent "tactical" type folding knife on arrival. On departure, I give it to my host or a friend, and chalk it up to the cost of traveling. And since I have the medical/surgical history to back it up, I travel with one of these hawthorn root canes from Whistle Creek:

http://store1.yimg.com/I/whistlecreek_1980_724720

It is hard enough and heavy enough to kill somebody if you whack 'em in the head just right, and the handle makes an excellent "ball hook."

:D

Brenainn
February 14, 2008, 02:07 PM
What countries allow Americans to carry?

Yeah, I am a little lost on that one... ?

CountGlockula
February 14, 2008, 02:11 PM
Countries or States?

Cosmoline
February 14, 2008, 02:12 PM
Another thing : very few countries in Europe is unsafe.. Like Norway, we almost don`t have any random murders here... so that will remove your worries.... well, thats in Europe. but i know that you might not wanna walk the streets of Bogotà or Mexico city without a gun ;-)

Scandinavia is one thing, but I've been reading reports and first hand accounts of pretty serious violent crime problems in the UK, France and some other European nations. Petty theft is very bad, as are petty assaults. Over here I have a small chance of getting shot, but I don't have to worry about pick pockets and the worst assault I've ever dealt with was a drunk trying to hug me.

In Mexico City it's a matter of avoiding the muy malo parts of town. I wouldn't go to Columbia unless I could afford a few armed henchmen.

Polishrifleman
February 14, 2008, 02:16 PM
I think it is best to get out and experience other cultures and depending on where you go you can really highten your awareness levels. It is actually really good training in my opinion. My wife and kids just returned from a trip to Rocky Point Mexico, we didn't get out of the resort much but when we did go into town it amazed me what I was aware of and the locals just treated it as normal business, much like getting in tune with a routine here at home.

Silvanus
February 14, 2008, 02:30 PM
As a matter of fact I live in one ;)

norwegianoperator
February 14, 2008, 02:34 PM
We can turn the question around a little: can tourists carrie a gun when they visit the US?

And to Cosmoline: yes, some of the countries like France, Italia and Uk can be risky if you visit the wrong side of their towns.. But the crime rate is way down low compared to most of the large city`s in the US

SCBradley
February 14, 2008, 02:40 PM
I avoid them like the plague. Mainly because I can't afford to go.

Silvanus
February 14, 2008, 02:41 PM
Yep, every country has it's bad parts...I wouldn't want to go to a "banlieue" in some of the big French cities like Marseille for instance:uhoh:

mpmarty
February 14, 2008, 02:47 PM
I don't travel internationally anymore. From age eighteen until I was nearly thirty I traveled to foreign lands, met interesting people, and killed them. I have no desire to go back.

norwegianoperator
February 14, 2008, 02:50 PM
Well guys.... you miss a lot of lovely countries and people that way... i have so far been to 50 different countries, including the states, where i lived for 2 years. And i must say... if you only see your own backyard, you narrow your world and knowledge a lot.

Winchester 73
February 14, 2008, 07:39 PM
What countries allow Americans to carry?

Guatemala.

http://guatemala.usembassy.gov/

Zedicus
February 14, 2008, 07:45 PM
Voted Yes

Why?

Spent 10 years in the UK, a place where RKBA is not simply Disrespected, but is Openly and tirelessly Under Heavy Attack.

Not ever going to put myself through that kind of a nightmare again.

Are there places I would like to visit elsewhere in the world?
You Bet! almost to many to list.

But I doubt I will due to their government's stance(s) on RKBA.

Never knew about Guatemala, may actually take a trip there sometime (if the TSA nonsense ever at least calms down)

Winchester 73
February 14, 2008, 07:50 PM
We can turn the question around a little: can tourists carrie a gun when they visit the US?

Indiana.With a license from your country.
Go,Hoosiers.

norwegianoperator
February 14, 2008, 07:55 PM
Well, Indiana here we come ;-)

arctictom
February 14, 2008, 07:57 PM
Spend a bit of time in Old Mexico , nice folks, wouldn't miss the trips but the US is one of the few with real freedoms, folks are routinely searched in Germany, France, their cars and homes etc the 4th 1st and 2nd amendments are foreign to these folks, no pun intended.

lee n. field
February 14, 2008, 08:03 PM
Because I'm po, and have barely traveled inside the United State, much less out of it.

bluestarlizzard
February 14, 2008, 08:03 PM
i don't think i would turn down a trip to visit a foriegn country. i certanly wouldn't want to live anywhere but here. but then i am a homebody and i love my little mountain.
i think avoiding a place just because you disagree (strongly disagree) with the popular opinion of the people in that place is not really a good reason. personally i would love to visit france ( the louve, people, the louve) and germany (good beer) the swiss alps (great skiing) and sweden (the home of my viking ansestors. oh, and turkey (cause lousie said some of the buildings are amazing). i love US history, but its western heritiage is only 400 years old and i live in the area with all that 400 years. i would like to walk in a building built a thousand years ago and see a real castle or walk through stratford. I would like to see the place that our own culture evolved from.

of course, my dad has to be drug, kicking and screaming, on vacation to anywere. i don't think it has anything to do with not being able to carry, though. more has to do with his utter hatered of traveling. *grin*

Winchester 73
February 14, 2008, 08:04 PM
Well, Indiana here we come ;-)
norwegianperator,
You will love Indiana!Cornfields,river vistas,Amish country to take you back to the 1880's,cosmopolitan Indy,South Bend's glorious Notre Dame and so much more!
This is the most beautiful,undiscovered state in the whole USA.
Full disclosure.This Floridian just loves Indiana.You will too!Carrying.

stubob2517
February 14, 2008, 08:05 PM
Martin,

I've got you by two. I'm at 52 including yours on several occasions. I can still remember the first time I had Aquavit - it wasn't pretty!
I hope to add at least one new country a year until I retire from my current (second) career.

A far as the thread goes, becuase of my job I can't not go to places where there is no RKBA. I have had some great conversations with people all over the world about guns, self-defense, the 2nd A. and the cowboy myth/history of the US. I have also seen some of the coolest weapons ever in places where there is no RKBA:)

The Weasel Squeezer
February 14, 2008, 08:06 PM
Not just countries, but states and cities. I'd rather drive to Mississippi than fly to Paris, or Chicago. I've seen enough of the world, and considering the times we live in, well...
There's still a lot of America to see.
Use Mapquest and The Travelers Guide To Firearms Laws... and See the USA in your Chevrolet.:)

CrawdaddyJim
February 14, 2008, 08:09 PM
I go only when .gov sends me. There is nothing outside of the U.S. that I am gonna have kittens if I don't get to see it up close and personal. That is what the WWW is for.

qwert65
February 14, 2008, 08:29 PM
well, I go to school on St. Kitts and guns are forbidden there(of course I hear gunfire sometimes but whatever) As far as travel I'd go to Italy other than that I'm comfortable in the US

norwegianoperator
February 14, 2008, 08:51 PM
Stubob2517 and Winchester 73.. Tnx.. well the aquavit is like gasoline...it taste like a skunk`s piss, and we only drink it every christmas eve ;-) Is Indiana the only state in the US where forreign citizens can carrie a gun? I thought states like Montana, Nevada and Nebraska was quiet liberal too?

Well, anyway.. i really would love to visit the states again soon, cause it is almost like coming home ;-) i really love it over there. I almost married a American girl, but she ran faster than me ;-)

Brenainn
February 15, 2008, 12:10 AM
I wonder what would happen if you actually HAD to defend yourself in one of the carry allowed countries? All I can think is, what a mess!! Although, hey, maybe it's not as bad as the States!?

Winchester 73
February 15, 2008, 12:50 AM
Is Indiana the only state in the US where forreign citizens can carrie a gun

No.Alaska(21) and Vermont(16) do not require a permit of any kind.As long as you are of age,not a felon and intend no harm, you are good to go in these 2 states.
Also to my knowledge,the states of Arizona,Idaho and Missouri will accept valid licenses for any political subdivision.
I am not a firearms attorney.Be sure to double check my information for AZ,ID and MO.
Hope you have a great American tour.

Sport45
February 15, 2008, 01:03 AM
I go where work (usually) or vacation (rarely) takes me. The local people's right to bear arms doesn't enter the equation.

Nil
February 15, 2008, 01:15 AM
No. Traveling to foreign countries and experiencing different cultures are some of the things I enjoy most about life. Seeing places like the Great Wall, the Parthenon, the Sistine Chapel, and the Great Barrier Reef are worth not carrying.

3rdpig
February 15, 2008, 01:57 AM
I avoid anyplace where I can't carry and I haven't been out of the country in over 10 years. I would never live someplace where the laws disarmed me.

ColinthePilot
February 15, 2008, 02:47 AM
I've never left the CONUS, but I'm starting my Air Force Career, so not only will I be traveling quite a bit, my job IS to keep and bear (and open carry, brandish, and use) arms. I'm looking forward to life after training.

carsten1911
February 15, 2008, 04:59 AM
Since I was born and raised in a country where there is no general RKBA (and still live there) I cant avoid that...sadly.

But then again I do think all those who WANT to avoid it are pretty much resticted to staying inside the US of A, hm?

Carsten

norwegianoperator
February 15, 2008, 05:32 AM
http://www.countryhumor.com/larry/righttobarearms.jpg

Chisel Head
September 17, 2008, 08:30 AM
...... so that will remove your worries.... well, thats in Europe. but i know that you might not wanna walk the streets of Bogotà or Mexico city without a gun...I hope this thread isn't considered too old to bump.
There are certain no-go sections in Germany and France where I wouldn't advise you to enter unarmed.
Since Norway isn't a member of the European Union, how restricted are handgun sales to citizens of neighboring countries? I can't imagine that, like selling alcoholic beverages, your laws there are liberal in other respects...As a matter of fact I live in oneHow are Luxembourg's laws? Do you have to travel to Antwerpen to get armed? Or, do you know if Belgium's laws are still liberal?
...and turkey (cause lousie said some of the buildings are amazing)...The Sofia Mosque, for example, which was once a Christian church or Mt. Ararat which was stolen from the Armenians who lost 3/4ths of their territory together with amazing buildings and many lives. All amazing buildings west of the Dardenelles which are over 100 years old were built by Europeans, before the Turks threw them out. Taking into account of the percentage of Turks in German prisons compared to the percentage of Germans in German prisons, I wouldn't advise you to go to Turkey unarmed either. Especially, in the company of a young woman, while travelling east away from Istambul...And since I have the medical/surgical history to back it up, I travel with one of these hawthorn root canes from Whistle Creek:
It is hard enough and heavy enough to kill somebody if you whack 'em in the head just right..And since I have an automotive mechanical history, I sometimes travel with my Hazet torque wrench which has a rubber grip and is heavy enough to KO when striking with that grip. Sort of like using a billy club. Mine is much older, but nonetheless effective:
http://www2.westfalia.de/medien/scaled_pix/580/580/000/000/000/000/000/047/39.jpg
...I won't even buy gas in MD, though I have to drive through it to get to and from work...I won't even buy gas in Germany. Not only because gas is cheaper in Switzerland which has more liberal firearms laws

Bubbles
September 17, 2008, 08:50 AM
I can't afford to travel to foreign countries so it's a moot point.

I do avoid states that don't respect my RKBA. I won't even buy gas in MD, though I have to drive through it to get to and from work.

WSM MAGNUM
September 17, 2008, 09:42 AM
Yes, I avoid all countries. :D

moga
September 17, 2008, 10:00 AM
Truth be told I would go on a driving vacation somewhere in the US where CCW is ok, than to go somewhere else outside the US where by definition the gun laws "suck"

FIFY

As someone else said, I won't visit states in the US that don't respect RKBA. I'd be damned if I am going to someone else's house across the pond that requires me to place my safety in their hands of their criminals. I don't care how safe it supposedly is. Unless there's zero crime, there's a possibility of being in the wrong place/wrong time, and cops still can't be every place at once. Even in Europe.

HGUNHNTR
September 17, 2008, 10:15 AM
I have done a lot of world traveling, lived in three different countries, and I would never limit myself based on another coutries views of the US constitution. I would not have guessed there was this much small mindedness on this particular board.

kevindsingleton
September 17, 2008, 10:25 AM
I have no interest in travelling to foreign countries, and their view of the right to self-defense is only one of the many reasons why.

I also have no interest in supporting (either financially, or via some perceived encouragement) their repressive stance(s) on the RKBA for their own citizens, regardless how "enlightened" they may think themselves, or to allow anyone to misconstrue my visit as support for their disdain for the US and our efforts to advance liberty around the world.

There's nothing in any foreign country that I want, or want to see, that I can't either import or view in high definition, except, perhaps, the ungodly stench. ;)

Artiz
September 17, 2008, 11:51 AM
I'm in Canada, Quebec City, so the country next to me is the United States, I went to New York three times, two to Adirondack Park and one to the city, Vermont, Boston one time.
Why should I avoid going there? No reason, and based on what I read here, evenif I am canadian I could carry in Vermont, so this is one more reason for me to come.
That's true that our laws are really making canada a "no guns land", no carry (certainly not OC, no CCW neither), stupid anti-gun politicians (I have to leave, I can't take anymore stupidity, on of our "politician" want to ban assault weapons that have the mag behind the trigger like the beretta, WHAT, assault military weapon? ***, they don't even know what is the difference between a shotgun and a rifle), all that makes me want to live in the U.S, if I could, I would do.
Anyway I don't avoid countries that don't respect RKBA.

deaconkharma
September 17, 2008, 12:03 PM
My rule of thumb:
I can't carry there? I can't spend money there. I vote with my wallet as well as at the booth. Does that mean I'm a less travelled man? Yup sure does. My wife has wanted to get me to go to N Y with her for sometime. Answer is NOPE. IT is nice to see my area of travel Concealed is growing these days though :)

+1 on what Kevin Said

Chisel Head
September 17, 2008, 01:27 PM
...I would not have guessed there was this much small mindedness on this particular board...Hey! I resent that:mad:...I can't afford to travel to foreign countries...I can't afford to travel to foreign countries, even though I live in a foreign country:confused:...I'm in Canada, Quebec City...Doesn't Quebec have different laws than the rest of Canada, in certain respects? While my cousin (residing in Montreal) and I were visiting the university mensa, many were causually smoking hash, without fear. That's something unthinkable, in Ontario...I vote with my wallet as well as at the booth...Trouble is, the size of my wallet just about equals the effectiveness of my vote. On top of that, each time I close my wallet, many a bigger wallet open up and seem to make my efforts vain

boomvark
September 17, 2008, 01:51 PM
I avoid even traveling through US states that have restrictive gun laws--NJ, CA, NY, MA, and IL come to mind.

I'm a lot more willing to visit non-US countries, and their gun laws per se aren't that much of a factor.

Heck, I spend more time in the Bahamas than in the US. I work here. Bahamian gun laws are relatively sane by British Commonwealth standards.

You couldn't pay me to go to the UK, but the gun laws there are only a peripheral factor. On the other hand I've always liked France, and would gladly visit there again on my own time. (Personally I've found the French reputation for rudeness to be hugely undeserved. Perhaps that's because I've spent very little time in Paris?)

TexasRifleman
September 17, 2008, 01:54 PM
and I would never limit myself based on another coutries views of the US constitution. I would not have guessed there was this much small mindedness on this particular board.

It has nothing to do with views on the US Constitution, rather views on human rights.

Countries that tend to be very restrictive gun wise tend to be very overbearing human rights wise.

Hardly a coincidence.

Artiz
September 17, 2008, 01:58 PM
Doesn't Quebec have different laws than the rest of Canada, in certain respects? While my cousin (residing in Montreal) and I were visiting the university mensa, many were causually smoking hash, without fear. That's something unthinkable, in Ontario
No, laws are supposed to be the same everywhere, I am in Quebec City, not montreal, in montreal there is the SPVM (Service de Police de la Ville de Montréal) and they are not very serious, that's why I will never live in montreal, stupid authority.
The province of Quebec has the SQ (Sûreté du Québec) wich mostly controls everywhere except of quebec city (Police de Québec) and Montreal (SPVM), other cities have their own police too.
Anywhere in quebec the police is not serious enough, I remember gun fights with police, omg, they shoot old people in the middle of the street for no reason, they have to empty their weapon to hit the target, they are ridicoulous, I hate living somewhere when I know that if a police man has to brandish and shoot, I am most likely to get the bullet than the bad guy, that's as stupid as police here is.
God I like U.S for this reason, you can defend yourself, here if I defend myself, even if I just kick the bad guy's butt, I have more chances to get in prison than the bad guy, we can't defend ourselves, period, I HATE THESE STUPID AUTHORITIES!

HGUNHNTR
September 17, 2008, 02:20 PM
Kevin: "There's nothing in any foreign country that I want, or want to see, that I can't either import or view in high definition, except, perhaps, the ungodly stench."

You've adequately lived up to the stereotype Kevin.

, and Americans wonder why the world thinks they are ethnocentric.

Golan
September 17, 2008, 02:27 PM
Do you avoid going to countries that don't respect RKBA?


There is only one country with the RKBA, all the rest are either anti or deem it to be a privilege granted to their citizens/subjects (and I am talking about citizens in their own country not tourists).

kevindsingleton
September 17, 2008, 02:34 PM
Thanks, HGUNHNTR. I'm doing my best.

, and Americans wonder why the world thinks they are ethnocentric.

Americans don't wonder this, at all. We do wonder if the world thinks. By all indications, they do not. :)

blackcash88
September 17, 2008, 02:38 PM
Guatemala.

http://guatemala.usembassy.gov/

Guatemala? Do you have a direct link to where it says Americans can carry on that site? I tried searching, but found nothing relevant.

deaconkharma
September 17, 2008, 02:51 PM
Some feel our rights are negotiable depending on where we are at that time. I think where we are is negotiable, not our rights.

High Planes Drifter
September 17, 2008, 02:52 PM
I've never been out of the country. Heck, I've never been out of the South.

WayneConrad
September 17, 2008, 03:02 PM
Yes, but also states and businesses. Because those who support the erosion of our rights should not be rewarded with my money. Because my rights are not--well, I wish there were not--negotiable. Because my country should be free.

HGUNHNTR
September 17, 2008, 03:02 PM
It is interesting how Americans hold fast to their political rights, however are quick to surrender personal rights. Ie. staying holed up in one place, afraid of having to be subject to some evil, stinky, "farn" countrie's rules even for such a breif time as a holiday.
I know this isn't true of all Americans

Tropical Buzz
September 17, 2008, 03:06 PM
As someone else said, I won't visit states in the US that don't respect RKBA. I'd be damned if I am going to someone else's house across the pond that requires me to place my safety in their hands of their criminals. I don't care how safe it supposedly is. Unless there's zero crime, there's a possibility of being in the wrong place/wrong time, and cops still can't be every place at once. Even in Europe.

LOL! Moga buddy - You must sleep with at least one eye open every night!

Tropical Buzz
September 17, 2008, 03:20 PM
There's nothing in any foreign country that I want, or want to see, that I can't either import or view in high definition, except, perhaps, the ungodly stench.

LMAO! Just as well that you stay where you are, fondling your gun - Your kind isn't exactly missed when you don't show up.

deaconkharma
September 17, 2008, 03:23 PM
is that an attempt at stereotyping?
The funny thing is most americans don't need to go anywhere else for culture when we import it from those seeking a better life, leaving the "Old World".
We have all the "FARN" culture we need right here. Many natural wonders still to explore here and we can do so while excercising the freedom in question. Thanks but those "FARN" lands don't really have much that I can't find here....Bubba.

Chisel Head
September 17, 2008, 03:34 PM
...You must sleep with at least one eye open every night!...Once one starts sleeping with both eyes open, chances are that he will never wake up again, ever:eek::what:...The funny thing is most americans don't need to go anywhere else for culture when we import it from those seeking a better life, leaving the "Old World"...If only it was that way, Sir. Fact iz, since 1965, the culture that's been seeping in, since then, has been enriching us with refried bean type culinary cultural assets, strategic gang warfare and automobiles which act like they're ready to copulate with one another. And, I don't mean the ones wearing steer horns on the hood.
Nothing from the "Old World" that I know of, Sir

HGUNHNTR
September 17, 2008, 03:41 PM
Hilarious deacon I hope you were being sarcastic, otherwise that is very sad.

kevindsingleton
September 17, 2008, 03:42 PM
LMAO! Just as well that you stay where you are, fondling your gun - Your kind isn't exactly missed when you don't show up.

Not to worry, Tropical Buzz. That's precisely what I'll do! Since I don't know what "kind" you are, I'll just assume I'm right about you, and yours, too! :rolleyes:

Tropical Buzz
September 17, 2008, 03:55 PM
You'll assume you're right about most things anyway - no point in me trying to change your mind. As long as you stay holed up at home getting high on the ungodly stench of you and yours, it doesn't really matter much now does it?

deaconkharma
September 17, 2008, 04:26 PM
Poor poor "Farn-ers"

Love the way they denigrate others as being closed minded because one might not want to have one's rights infringed, thus not visit a country. Closed minded is not recognizing that my choice is such, and for answering the question truthfully, we get bashed. Hey it's my choice not to have to answer "papiere geffallen" or to watch a lovely game of Steinstossen and we are deemed closed minded. At least I haven't imposed that opinion on the masses like gun control has been on the populations of countries I said I wouldn't visit. PERSONAL CHOICE. Look into it.

Furter yet, we have shots at other "Farn-ers" that come in as refried bean importers. Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at the Chinese too? Maybe a friendly comment about egg foo young or some other funny saying while replaceing r's with l's or something, SIRs?

America is constantly getting bashed around the world because we do what others can't or won't out of cowardice, laziness, ignorance, or apathy. We hold our rights dear, some people more than others. Also some rights are deemed more dear than others for some people. We do our damndest to not be like other countries who have given up their rights and we fight our politicians and judges who attempt to take those rights. (Funny many of those same public figures quote laws from these other nations in question) Being this way both individually and as a nation has prevented invasion and has made us the guys everyone else runs to when other countries are threatening. I'm sure I or my children will get to visit one of your fine "FARN" countries when they are whining to be saved again. Might be sooner than you think with the way Putin is flexing these days.

Tropical Buzz
September 17, 2008, 04:45 PM
I have no issue with people choosing to visit or not visit foreign countries for whatever reason(s) they choose. I fully expect that every American should be justifiably proud of his country - it is a great nation and there certainly is enough to see and do there that it could easily take up the better part of a lifetime of vacations.
I can't speak for anyone else, but the issue I had is with the need to insult or denigrate others and their countries as part of expressing pride in your own. I'm just as proud of my country as you are of yours and believe it or not, I will fight just as hard (maybe even harder) to defend it.
Normally, I just shrug and laugh off that caliber of internet ignorance when I encounter it, but this being The High Road and all, I find that level of stupidity hard to walk away from as it panders to the typical idiotic stereotype of paranoid, hate-mongering gun owners that makes all of us look bad and adds fuel to the fire of the anti gun movement.

HGUNHNTR
September 17, 2008, 05:01 PM
+1 Tropical

However my family comes first if it came to a fight, not my country, not even close.

Fighting for a country, is illogical. I would fight for humans and their well being, regardless of which side of the border they are on.

Hey are we off topic yet?:)

blackcash88
September 17, 2008, 05:06 PM
I would fight for humans and their well being, regardless of which side of the border they are on.

So, if a "people" didn't have "well being", you'd fight for them regardless of where they are from?

Are you really saying you'd fight against the US for the Mexicans illegally crossing the border because they have no "well being" in Mexico? :rolleyes:

Halo
September 17, 2008, 05:51 PM
And to Cosmoline: yes, some of the countries like France, Italia and Uk can be risky if you visit the wrong side of their towns.. But the crime rate is way down low compared to most of the large city`s in the US

I'm not sure this is entirely true. Homicide rates remain higher in the US, and most of those are criminal-on-criminal as a result of the asinine "War on Drugs", but the overall crime index is higher in much of Europe. I specifically remember reading a study from a Dutch university about this, but I haven't found it yet. Interpol 2001 stats show the following rate of crime per 100,000 population:

4161 - US
7736 - Germany
6941 - France
9927 - England and Wales

ndh87
September 17, 2008, 06:04 PM
I avoid going to states that dont like guns.

bonza
September 17, 2008, 06:21 PM
I don't know if it still applies, but some friends of mine went to South Africa a couple of times back in the '90s & they were 'encouraged' to carry concealed.

scrat
September 17, 2008, 07:22 PM
i dont see it a problem. When in rome do as the romans do.

blackcash88
September 17, 2008, 07:25 PM
Bonza, how'd the get their guns into South Africa? Did they just buy black market guns once they got there?

Zundfolge
September 17, 2008, 07:34 PM
I've heard that there are many black market guns available in South Africa. I assume they come in over the border.

Halo
September 17, 2008, 08:23 PM
I've heard that there are many black market guns available in South Africa. I assume they come in over the border.

I sure don't doubt that. As we all know, black market guns are available anywhere people are willing to pay for them, same as drugs. Contempt for the law by criminals is something antis have trouble grasping, perhaps because the notion that some people are actually bad and harbor ill intent is totally incongruous with their utopianism. It's much easier to just blame a misused tool. The antis are trying to un-invent firearms through legislation, with predictable results that would be hilarious were it not for the fact that many good people are left defenseless because of it.

Colt46
September 17, 2008, 09:07 PM
Not too many countries allow the citizenry to defend themselves. You might never leave home if you boycotted all that do.

P5 Guy
September 17, 2008, 09:09 PM
I'm staying here.

packnrat
September 17, 2008, 10:37 PM
just because i do not want to go to mexico.:eek:

i get all the mexico i need here in ca.:what:


:uhoh:

.

Kind of Blued
September 17, 2008, 10:45 PM
It's not that they "don't respect RKBA", it's that the right does not exist in the first place.

Other countries are fine. American states that don't respect my rights as an American are NOT OK however, because I take it as a personal insult against my country ideologically.

That and they just so happen to be the most dangerous, armed-criminal-infested places in our country.

I do wish they'd follow the rules...

OOOXOOO
September 17, 2008, 11:06 PM
I would go to any country in the world that intrigued me. When I get there I will assess the situation, if I feel the need I will arm myself with what I can find. I've been to Mexico, and though I did not know the language I find trouble is as easy to spot there as i is here. Your best weapon is between your ears.

crushbup
September 17, 2008, 11:22 PM
I would love to visit Italy, but I would not want to live there as I would have to give up many of my guns, and possibly even my whole hobby depending on where I live.

I want to at least visit a Nordic country, if only to experience buying a suppressor over the counter. Also: pretty blond girls.

And after reading the thread about Czech firearms laws, I'd love to visit there and even try to finagle a visit to CZ.

Chisel Head
September 18, 2008, 04:32 AM
...in montreal there is the SPVM (Service de Police de la Ville de Montréal) and they are not very serious, that's why I will never live in montreal, stupid authority...
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/section/movies/amg/video/cov120/drv300/v315/v31528glctc.jpg
That's how it is in German cities which have ultra-liberal mayors- and constituencies. I've noticed that the police are most effective in conservative precints. In fact, it's quite a discrepancy as how one police force behaves, compared to another force elsewhere in the country. Particularly, where I reside, the police have been victims of bad publicity from small ultra-left press agents. You know, those who hand out pamphlets and print short newspapers. Case in point, A person of sub-Saharan origin was approached by a policeman for suspicion of dealing drugs. A passer-by happened to have a camera available. The candid photo made its way to the printing press along with the caption titled, "Discrimination". I'm sure that if the police have happened to approach a native German, nobody would have thought it unusual enough to pull out the camera. So, I don't blame the police for simply checking in, driving around, all day long and checking out until retirement. If the residents hate authority, why should the police lift a finger?
However, there is an advantage to that, if you happen to have a grudge against somebody and decide to settle it out of court. In that case, lazy policemen are less likely to take an investigation as seriously. I don't necessarily mean murder. But say, you're getting back at an old boss who used to yell at you as if you were a dog, as well as cleaning a carbouretor using compressed air. But, instead of blasting the air through the carbouretor through the open door, he blasts the fumes porvocatively into the garage as a gesture of great disrespect. Now, if you get out the wrist rocket and decide to silently ventilate all new cars with the lead pellets of which you casted from melted down wheel weights or decide to wear a stocking over your head and stalk the boss to whoop him a little and then pour a bucket of gasoline over his head, you could do either in a constituency where the police have grievances and are most likely to come out even with your score.
I myself, have accumulated quite a list of debt to collect on, since, like Canada and western Europe, one could get into big trouble for stepping outside with someone to duke it out. In other words, the methods we used to use in Michigan to immediately settle a dispute, is frowned upon (to put it lightly) in disarmed countries. One has to settle matters in a clandestine manner, instead, which is not near as satisfying. In that list, however, there are a couple members of the visible minority. If they get equal treatment as others on the list, the police are more than likely to investigate such an incident meticulously, on the grounds that a possible "Hate Crime" could have been commited (Even though, the local police have no particular sympathy for that group, they are obligated to carry out their duty). Such suspicion starts simply by spitting in one's face. And, our DA here, seems inclined to press the police department in the direction of thoroughly investigating such alleged crimes. Whether such lone wolf score settling is a "Hate Crime" or not, such will be treated as one which actually puts privilege on solving matters concerning persons of obvious distinction over equal matters concerning others. This discrepancy could lead to the confiscation of the computer hard drive and a search warrant. If no conviction can be applied, basic information will be handed over to trhe communal registry. In other words, if a similar incident were to take place, elsewhere in town, the information kept over one's alleged act can be used as reference. Thus, placing that unconvicted person into automatic suspicion
... I remember gun fights with police, omg, they shoot old people in the middle of the street for no reason, they have to empty their weapon to hit the target, they are ridicoulous... I am most likely to get the bullet than the bad guy, that's as stupid as police here is.Darwinian question, Sir:
Which appeared first? The chicken or the egg?
Which was established first? The Montreal Police or the Police Academy?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/482100/police_academy/

Ragnar Danneskjold
September 18, 2008, 04:37 AM
The only times I have been out of country are when I was too young to carry, or when I was carrying for the Army. I do not go to Canada because of their laws though.

As others have said, in the US, I do actively avoid infringing areas. NY, CA and IL are on my own "do not go" list. And I would really like to visit cities like NCY, Chicago, and San Diego. I've never really been to a super big city like that, other than Detroit, and the doesn't really count. But if they don't want me to be able to defend myself or have Rights, my tourist dollars will go elsewhere.

Chisel Head
September 18, 2008, 05:18 AM
Detroit has a great zoo, though

brigadier
September 18, 2008, 09:11 AM
I don't believe it's always a power trip that countries ban guns. Sometimes (Japan for instance) I think gun bans are well intended by naive governments.

Looking at the gun laws of different countries, you'll find that most often countries allow citizens to own guns provided they meet certain requirements. If you were to look at gun laws WITHOUT taking the balance of power in to account, then many of the gun laws around the world actually make sense. Likewise, the whole idea of guns playing a critical role in the balance of power between citizen and state is not well known and understood in many developed countries which makes their gun laws understandable.

However, you should also keep in mind the influences on the governments to ban weapons. Just because one government may be naive, that doesn't mean that they are not being influenced by a larger government body (like the UN) who knows better.

Norwegian
September 18, 2008, 10:11 AM
I have to say it sounds very strange to me that some people would opt not to go to countries that don`t allow you to carry arms.
Even though it is a personal choice I can`t really think of any reasons why one would feel a need to carry for example in many countries in Europe, no need for it really.

Some more unsafe districts of certain towns etc, sure but then yet again there ain`t really a problem finding out what places to avoid before ordering a ticket.

I`m pretty sure if I would live in the US I would both own weapons and carry them, but it wouldn`t stop me from going other places where I couldn`t.

kevindsingleton
September 18, 2008, 10:44 AM
Normally, I just shrug and laugh off that caliber of internet ignorance when I encounter it, but this being The High Road and all, I find that level of stupidity hard to walk away from as it panders to the typical idiotic stereotype of paranoid, hate-mongering gun owners that makes all of us look bad and adds fuel to the fire of the anti gun movement.

Success! More proof that smilies are ineffective weapons against a firmly planted chip on the shoulder.

Party on, TB. Or, whatever.

Tropical Buzz
September 18, 2008, 11:38 AM
Congratulations. You successfully demonstrated that paranoid xenophobia leads one to illogical conclusions like deciding that a foreigner responding to an undisguised insult somehow points to a chip on the shoulder syndrome. We are all saddled with our preconceptions, though, so while you pleasure yourself with your assumptions about me, I'll just assume your condition is the result of degenerative inbreeding.

GEM
September 18, 2008, 12:22 PM
Here's the important issue:

Do you buy imported cheese from countries that doen't support the RKBA?

This is very important. Switzerland, a relatively gun friendly country but with increasing restrictions, makes one of my favorities - Appenzeller.

However, the UK with terrible gun laws produces the best cheddars and Stilton.

What do?

HGUNHNTR
September 18, 2008, 04:13 PM
Buy the cheese and don't forget the Gruyere'!!

frankcostanza
September 18, 2008, 04:17 PM
Why would anyone want to visit another country?

MJRW
September 18, 2008, 04:23 PM
I carry in the US largely due to the risk evaluation I've done which says the inconvenience of carrying is worth it due to the risk I have of needing it. Quite frankly, in most of the places I've travelled to abroad, particularly resorts, I wouldn't carry there even if I could. Let's face it, carrying is less comfortable than not carrying.

6_gunner
September 18, 2008, 04:32 PM
Since there is practically no country where I could carry as a visiting foreigner, there isn't much of a practical issue about traveling to restrictive countries. However, I wouldn't want to spend my money in a place which didn't respect the rights of its citizens to protect themselves. For this reason, I made it a point not to buy anything in London, when I had a layover there on my way to Israel.

Israelis, of course, are pretty free to carry weapons. I felt perfectly safe there. I also visited Jordan, where I saw a number of privately owned rifles. I surmised that they must be able to bear arms to at least a limited extent. However, the guns I saw may have been deactivated, so I don't really know.

I doubt that I will ever knowingly visit a place that denies its citizens the right to defend themselves.

Sadly, this means that I won't be able to visit my ancestral home of Ireland. There aren't really any other places that I have much interest in visiting.

RP88
September 18, 2008, 04:35 PM
I would visit any country or state regardless of gun laws. But, I would not like to LIVE in an anti-gun state here. But, if I found a nice country to live in elsewhere - where the people and culture would be much better than a good deal of the jerks here, then I could seriously live without touching a gun ever again. however, since most of the nice countries coincidentally allow gun onwership...I guess I won't have to worry about that.

nwilliams
September 18, 2008, 04:37 PM
Do you avoid going to countries that don't respect RKBA?

I love to travel. Whether that country I'm traveling to supports gun rights makes no difference to me. I don't travel to other countries with my guns so their stance on RKBA is of no consequence to me either way. I love to visit Britain and Ireland and have been to many other countries that don't support gun rights and I always have a good time no matter where I go, its a vacation just have fun!

Hk91-762mm
September 18, 2008, 04:43 PM
I love to visit China I have a Ball when I go there.
As to States--It sucks But I have friends in Philly and I live in NY[soon to move to KY]
Ill go out of my way to NOT do Business with co's in antigun states Nor would I vacataion In say California

deaconkharma
September 18, 2008, 11:07 PM
Costa Rica and Panama restrictive but still allowed. I hear Costa Rica is beautiful too.
http://www.fortliberty.org/2007/07
"Private firearms ownership is the reason that Panamanians enjoy this level of safety and security.

Panama does not have ridiculous laws against carrying a weapon concealed. In fact, if you can legally purchase a firearm in Panama, you are also legally allowed to carry it concealed
"
sounds pretty nice to visit :)

Stevie-Ray
September 19, 2008, 02:31 AM
Hell no. I've travelled all over the Caribbean and I wouldn't have been to any of those places if I was that rigid. But neither do I choose to go to a place I know is nothing but a crime-infested wasteland. Wish to hell I could have carried in South America, though. I'm sure the wife would have felt better, also. But it was the last time I'll ever be there.

Chisel Head
September 19, 2008, 05:06 AM
...Costa Rica and Panama restrictive but still allowed...Although crime is still comparably high, in relation to the average crime rate for a 1st world country, Costa Rica is supposed to be the best-off and most civilized country down there
...I love to visit China I have a Ball when I go there...Funny. I've never had fun, while visiting Wal-Mart

Chisel Head
September 19, 2008, 05:14 AM
...Wish to hell I could have carried in South America, though...There are supposed to be some decent enclaves, there. You could book a pleasant tour of Vinyard haciendas in Mendoza, Argentina where you could get away with all-you-could-eat-drink lodging.
Chile has similar offerings and is supposed to offer a wide variety of gourmet seafood dishes to accompany the white wine, since they're closer to the Pacific

Lamb of Gun
September 19, 2008, 09:29 AM
Personally, I only care about American gun regulations. Who am I to say that an ancient country on any continent is doing things wrong. There are people that survived for thousands of years through their own convinctions and beliefs and I wouldn't trample on that or boycott it. That is very anti-American and anti-freedom.

With that being said, I will never give up my gun rights because I am an American living in America. It is a hobby I love and an important part of OUR society.

moga
September 19, 2008, 09:36 AM
LOL! Moga buddy - You must sleep with at least one eye open every night!

I take very seriously the responsibility to provide for my family's personal safety. And yes, I am a very light sleeper.

What snobs some on this board are. Some of us find importance in other pursuits than the number of countries in which we've lived or how highly cultured we perceive ourselves to be relative to everyone else around us. As people, we each have different priorities based on our backgrounds, environment, upbringing, etc. What reason can there be to disparage the value systems of others except to be an elitist? If you like it I love it but for me, as an American, self-reliance is central to my personal identity and is not something that I'll easily relinquish to another, not even for a lovely vacation abroad. Besides, there is plenty of God's beauty right here in CONUS to relish and enjoy under the protection of the laws and customs of the country that I love more than any other.

Tropical Buzz
September 19, 2008, 10:52 AM
Moga, apologies if it came across that I was disparaging your choice of whether or not to travel based on your convictions regarding personal security. That is not the case at all - as stated earlier, I have absolutely no difficulty understanding that.
I was just ribbing you about you not wanting to be anywhere without a gun unless there is zero crime. Again, no issue with the statement, just chuckling with you about when would it ever be possible for a man to totally relax and let his guard down, given that anywhere there are people, the potential for crime and conflict exists.
Back on topic, down here there is no RKBA in our constitution, but firearm ownership is licensed once a person can demonstrate that he or she "needs" one:rolleyes:. All permits are for concealed carry and you are (strongly)encouraged to keep your gun with you at ALL TIMES - the big fear being that it may get stolen and fall into the hands of a criminal. Civilians are generally restricted to calibers of .38 or lower with the .380 by far the most common caliber in use. Of course the crooks enjoy no such restrictions and 9mm's and .40's seem to be the calibers of choice.
If one has connections or is serious enough to pass a pretty tough series of tests over a period of time, a "sporting license" can be issued for just about any handgun caliber. Owners of estates or upscale residential properties larger than about 20,000 square feet can obtain an "estate license" for a shotgun or rifle.
For the most part, the system barely works, but the caliber restrictions and the fact that the approval process is completely subjective leave many feeling frustrated and denied the ability to protect themselves and their families.
For me personally, I am adequately armed and train/practice regularly, but it took a bit of persistence and a few visits to the police commissioner's office with documented police reports of attempted crimes against me and my business.
I travel to the US a couple of times a year for shopping and business and although initially I briefly feel naked walking around unarmed after being accustomed to CCW at home, I never really feel unsafe. Well, except maybe that one time outside of a Jack In The Box in Los Angeles, but that's another story.:D

berrieberrie
September 19, 2008, 11:06 AM
I've never left the CONUS, but I'm starting my Air Force Career, so not only will I be traveling quite a bit, my job IS to keep and bear (and open carry, brandish, and use) arms. I'm looking forward to life after training.
I do believe that the OP meant "tourism purposes" (or at least non-warzones) when he was talking about "going to countries". IMHO, that means that your brandishing and usage will be limited almost everywhere to the AFB you'll be stationed in, unless you consider places like Iraq and the like as tourist destinations.

Chisel Head
September 19, 2008, 05:14 PM
...when would it ever be possible for a man to totally relax and let his guard down?...Just after a divorce and just after entering a cave

dmxx9900
September 19, 2008, 07:20 PM
To visit yes to live no
I would visit Germany since part of my family lives there and it has interesting customs there.But live there no I would not fit in too well and it has a good amount of crime in city parts.

Stevie-Ray
September 20, 2008, 03:57 AM
There are supposed to be some decent enclaves, there. You could book a pleasant tour of Vinyard haciendas in Mendoza, Argentina where you could get away with all-you-could-eat-drink lodging.
Chile has similar offerings and is supposed to offer a wide variety of gourmet seafood dishes to accompany the white wine, since they're closer to the PacificI believe it. Problem was I was in 2 different states in Venezuela. They have done NOTHING to see to it that I come back for another visit and in fact were openly hostile. No apologies to any on here that might live there. That country has nothing I want.

Chisel Head
September 20, 2008, 04:14 AM
Inexpensive gasoline, perhaps? An aquaintence of mine and her (at the time) boyfriend once visited a reknown island off Venezuela's coast. I forget what it's called. Santa Marguerita or similar? Anyways, the society was quite primitive. Some of the natives were trying to attach one of those corrogated sheetmetal roofs they use to cover their huts with. They couldn't manage even doing that, before this Kluckscheißer German boyfriend of hers got so annoyed that he went over and took control of the project. They got it done, even though they didn't understand one another.
These haciendas, as previously mentioned, are clean, hospitable and modern. The wine is made in a state of the art manner, using modern utensils and scientific procedures. To lodge there would give you the impression that you were in a modern first world country. In fact, many Americans book up trips there

Oana
September 20, 2008, 05:03 AM
It depends. I haven't done a lot of traveling, but I doubt RKBA would bear heavily in the matter. Most countries wouldn't let you carry anyway, is my guess.

Now crime rate is another story, and is often tied to the citizens' ability to defend themselves. I think I'd be leery of going to England, but that's because of the massive amount of crime and privacy-ignoring measures they've taken.

alsaqr
September 20, 2008, 07:06 AM
Until recently I traveled a great deal, mostly to Asia and the Middle East as an EOD, firing range and weapons instructor/advisor. About 10 years ago I bought a rock and roll Steyr AUG at a souk in a middle east country that I visited frequently. The host country had no objections to my pruchase and the gun is stored at the home of a good friend there.

It is a sad day when a military retiree, or any law abiding US citizen for that matter, can own a new fully auto weapon in a foreign country and is prevented from buying one at home.

bthest86
September 20, 2008, 07:52 AM
Do you avoid going to countries that don't respect RKBA?


IMO my own country of the USA doesn't respect RKBA. So why should I hold it against other countries who also don't respect RKBA? Doesn't make much sense to me.

DWARREN123
September 20, 2008, 08:10 AM
I got enough of going to different places in the ARMY. I do sometimes go into Kentucky but since I live in Tennessee and about 3 miles from the state line it ain't no big deal.:D

Ohen Cepel
September 20, 2008, 08:21 AM
I try to avoid the states that don't let me carry!

Not so worried about the countries since I'm either there on work and don't travel much for leisure.

deaconkharma
December 2, 2008, 08:57 AM
Why? I made my case in this thread awhile back and it was inferred, that those of us that would not visit other places due to RKBA issues were small minded etc.
One word.
Mumbai

ok back to our regularly scheduled program

Shung
December 2, 2008, 09:24 AM
Well well well.. I love visiting the USA... though I cannot carry there... I do not have as a foreigner any RKBA... but statisticaly my life is much more in danger in the USA than in, lets say, Switzerland or France.. think about it-

deaconkharma
December 2, 2008, 10:29 AM
I am not sure that the statistics match your statement on danger here vs there. But likewise I can't carry in your country either.
But I appreciate your plight and to fix it perhaps apply for citizenship then ;) And if yours would afford me the same as a citizen I might consider the same.
Also...We here at thr would love to have another pro RKBA citizen added to our voice.

gvnwst
December 2, 2008, 10:40 AM
I go to germany, because i have family there. Germany doesn't allow private gun ownership without a LOT of paperwork, and even then, they usually turn you down. Only park rangers and cops can have guns.......

D-Day
December 2, 2008, 10:51 AM
I'll be visiting England in March. Why? A friend found a pricing explot on some round trip tickets from Chicago...$247 with tax. Hard to pass up a deal.

From one anti-gun location to the next. Hoo boy, this will be interesting.

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