Someone NEEDS to make a 7.62 x 25 carbine


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Ascot500
February 14, 2008, 12:08 PM
Why?

Have you seen the price of 7.62 x 25 ammo?

What a fun plinker!

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CBS220
February 14, 2008, 12:27 PM
I have seen M1 Carbines chambered to the cartridge.

Find a junky old Universal and have fun.

biscuitninja
February 14, 2008, 12:27 PM
While I wholeheartly agree with you, the 7.62x25 round is/has been known to defeat certain levels of armor. I don't think the powers that be would enjoy that though. But I agree, it would be a fun plinker. But I plink with my 7.62x54r and my .416. (ha ha).

Anyways good luck
-bix

SaMx
February 14, 2008, 12:34 PM
.223 defeats the same levels of armor. 7.62x25 carbine would be cool.

Gator
February 14, 2008, 01:13 PM
I have seen an FAL carbine in 7.62 x 25, it used a drum mag. :)

Babarsac
February 14, 2008, 01:14 PM
CBS220, where did you see the carbine?

CBS220
February 14, 2008, 01:51 PM
Found it at a pawn shop. I have no idea how well it worked, either, or even what mags it took. Since then, I have heard references to them on the net, leading me to think that more than a few people have also made the conversion.

silverlance
February 14, 2008, 02:18 PM
Dude... get the original. Well, as close as possible.
Get the PPSH-41.

fireflyfather
February 14, 2008, 02:19 PM
Um, PPSH-41? Um, been around since WWII.

Justin
February 14, 2008, 02:21 PM
I want an AR chambered in 7.62 Tok.

Then I would shoot .223 Timbs through it.

:)

grimjaw
February 14, 2008, 02:22 PM
Somebody just needs to starting building semi-auto Bizon kits in that caliber.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg08-e.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUOnwJLJGMY

45 rounds of 30 caliber goodness in a compact package.

jm

Ascot500
February 14, 2008, 02:34 PM
Affordable NEEDS to be part of the package, maybe platformed off an existing rifle.

Think Kel Tec Sub-2000 or Hi Point.

You can read in another thread about the issues with the PPSH semis.

silverlance
February 14, 2008, 02:48 PM
?
I wasn't aware of any issues. please do let me know as i am thinking of buying one this weekend. been saving up for a while for it.

Cannonball888
February 14, 2008, 02:52 PM
You can read in another thread about the issues with the PPSH semis

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=338857

Jim Watson
February 14, 2008, 03:21 PM
Whenever I read about buying a gun to shoot cheap ammunition BECAUSE it is cheap, I wonder what will happen when the stocks of cheap ammo have been shot up. I don't see many Swedes out any more, and the Swiss are dying back as the ammo surplused with the rifles gets consumed. Of course our friends who used to be our enemies have lots larger inventories of the various Communist Bloc calibers so it may not be a problem for your generation.

Hoppy590
February 14, 2008, 03:46 PM
Whenever I read about buying a gun to shoot cheap ammunition BECAUSE it is cheap, I wonder what will happen when the stocks of cheap ammo have been shot up. I don't see many Swedes out any more, and the Swiss are dying back as the ammo surplused with the rifles gets consumed. Of course our friends who used to be our enemies have lots larger inventories of the various Communist Bloc calibers so it may not be a problem for your generation.


well if enough people buy the guns, then theres enough demand for a WWB of x25.

7.62x39 isnt a traditional american caliber. nor is 9mm. but enough people bought guns chambered in it, and enough companys decided it was worth producing round for it.

to not buy something because its a surplus round is to get stuck in what evers being made for ammo at that time.

GRIZ22
February 14, 2008, 05:27 PM
well if enough people buy the guns, then theres enough demand for a WWB of x25.


But do you think WWB would be as cheap as the surplus? Ballistically. the 7.62X25 would probably be a bit less than a 30 carbine which enough people bad mouth as not being powerful enough for anything (I'm not one of them).

For the present situation something like the Hi Point might be doable as the only major hardware change to the 9mm would be a 7.62 barrel. Of course if that were to happen the supplies of surplus 7.62x25 would deplete faster.

Hoppy590
February 14, 2008, 05:41 PM
But do you think WWB would be as cheap as the surplus?

no but if all i wanted was cheap. id be shooting .22

For the present situation something like the Hi Point might be doable as the only major hardware change to the 9mm would be a 7.62 barrel. Of course if that were to happen the supplies of surplus 7.62x25 would deplete faster.

theres been a number of us who wanted this. write to hi point and express an interest

Evil Monkey
February 14, 2008, 09:37 PM
First, don't ever rely on surplus ammo. It's here today, tomorrow it's nowhere to be found.

Here's my view on why you will never see a general purpose "for the consumer" new tokarev carbine.

Manufacturers aren't going to rely on cheap surplus ammo for sales of their new carbine. 9mm, 40sw, and 45acp cover the niche effectively. There's nothing practically that the 7.62x25 tokarev round can do that the previous three popular rounds won't do.

I believe the main reason for the cheapness of the tokarev round is because there may be very few buyers. I think it's accurate to say that people buy the CZ52's and PPSH41 semi auto for collecting purposes, not for serious business like defense or hunting, STHF, etc.. And not everybody is a collector either. Some people, if they want a weapon in a pistol caliber, will often go for 9mm, 40, or 45 because there's more choices. Those 3 rounds are also FAR easier to come by. In my experience, 7.62x25mm even brand new brass cased ammo is not common in gun stores, and especially sporting good stores.

If anything, we might see some conversions if there's enough demand. An upper for an AR15 perhaps? etc etc etc....

It's just that some calibers will die out eventually because either there wasn't room for them in the market, or there were initially not enough appealing weapons in that chambering, or everybody moved on to standardizing. The 7.62x39mm is a unique cartridge in that the US never had an equivalent in a battle weapon. With all those ak and sks rifles that came in and made the round popular, it stuck with us. Will the 5.45mm last for another 5 years? I doubt it. We already have the 5.56mm and all new combat weapons coming out in the world and in the US civilian market are always in 5.56mm.

Going off topic, I'll stop here. :D

Hoppy590
February 14, 2008, 10:46 PM
There's nothing practically that the 7.62x25 tokarev round can do that the previous three popular rounds won't do.
penetrate soft armor.

Evil Monkey
February 14, 2008, 10:48 PM
penetrate soft armor.

You're probably better off with 5.56mm. Niche covered.

MD_Willington
February 15, 2008, 12:15 AM
I'd like to see a US made AKM pattern rifle with the PPSH-43 magwell in them...

There are a few of them around on the web....

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19839

Spiggy
February 15, 2008, 02:31 AM
Tokarev and 5.7x28 are some of the calibers I wouldn't mind in a small portable carbine... Bolt action even; wouldn't mind at all

kfranz
February 15, 2008, 09:29 AM
There's a gunsmith that does quick change barrel conversions to the FAL platform. One of the calibers he does is x25.

Hoppy590
February 15, 2008, 10:37 AM
You're probably better off with 5.56mm. Niche covered.

not a pistol caliber, i dont care howmuch you blow on som bushy "pistol".

Manufacturers aren't going to rely on cheap surplus ammo for sales of their new carbine. 9mm, 40sw, and 45acp cover the niche effectively. There's nothing practically that the 7.62x25 tokarev round can do that the previous three popular rounds won't do.

if you keep changing the standard then why not just say .50bmg. its available in a pistol and puts everything else to shame

if you dont like the idea of a 7.62x25 pistol/ carbine. then vote with your wallet and dont buy one. dont make wild, shifting arguments against it.

R127
February 15, 2008, 11:17 AM
First, don't ever rely on surplus ammo. It's here today, tomorrow it's nowhere to be found.


That's bad reasoning though. The only ammo you can rely on is what you have stored away for yourself. If I buy 10,000rds of whatever weird ammo today then I won't need to buy it tomorrow. Anything else is gambling.

Besides S&B and Prvi Partizan both make newly manufactured non-corrosive 7.62x25 and it isn't even that expensive. Wolf makes it in both FMJ and HP. Winchester has their own rebranded offering, Starline has the brass, bullets are already available and MagSafe makes a super expensive load for it. I can buy S&B 7.62x25 at most of the ranges I go to, online and at every gun show.

Last and not least is that the 7.62x25 has the same case head dimensions as the 9x19. 9mm conversions for Tokarevs and CZ-52's abound. A carbine with a swappable barrel could perform the same trick. As far as that goes anything from .380 to 9x23 Winchester would work with a barrel swap and maybe a different mag and recoil spring in some cases. If you want to talk about scrounging ammo that's the ticket.

The 7.62x25 offers lots of power with a very flat trajectory in a cartridge that is suitably sized for a handgun and carbine combo that uses the same magazine. The ammo is lightweight and not expensive which makes it great for backpacking, woodsrunning, survival, plinking and defense. The three major service calibers just don't have the same trajectory or penetrating power. The 5.7 is just reinventing the wheel and imo coming up with one that is out of round. I'm not saying those other four are bad but the 7.62x25 definately brings some unique capabilities to the table.

You know, it would be really easy to make a carbine conversion kit for the TT-33.

MudPuppy
February 15, 2008, 12:24 PM
militarygunsupply has some 7.62x25 carbines. Homebuilders are making them out of PPSH-43 kits as well. (I've got one packed away, just haven't had the time to make it go yet--I need to either put a perma flash hider on it or get a new barrel fitted.)

Evil Monkey
February 15, 2008, 02:43 PM
not a pistol caliber,

AND!?!? You said penetrate armor, I said a 223 is better for that. It's a better tool for the job. It doesn't matter if it isn't a pistol caliber.

if you keep changing the standard then why not just say .50bmg. its available in a pistol and puts everything else to shame

You're being unrealistic and exaggerating.

dont make wild, shifting arguments against it.

Whatever you think, there will most likely be no new production 7.62x25mm carbines. There may be conversions for existing weapons and reproduction semi auto ppsh41/pps43, but not likely new proprietary designs any time soon.

Hoppy590
February 15, 2008, 04:22 PM
ahh double

Hoppy590
February 15, 2008, 04:24 PM
your EXACT quote is
Manufacturers aren't going to rely on cheap surplus ammo for sales of their new carbine. 9mm, 40sw, and 45acp cover the niche effectively. There's nothing practically that the 7.62x25 tokarev round can do that the previous three popular rounds won't do.

my response was
penetrate soft armor.

you posed a sort of question about what x25 can do that 9, 40 and 45 cant. i answered it. you then suggested that a rifle caliber would be better. yes it would but thats wildly shifting from the argument over PISTOL calibers.

those are facts. its all in the previous posts.

im not being unrealistic, im pointing that theres ALWAYS something bigger and better. but a line must be drawn. .223 is not a pistol caliber, and were talking pistol calibers.

incase you havnt noticed. almost everything on the market today is just a rebuild of another design. im not expecting revolution, just expansion.

if you could get a hi point, or keltec carbine in x25. it would out perform 9, 40, and .45 and also cost less than an AK

Evil Monkey
February 15, 2008, 05:35 PM
but a line must be drawn. .223 is not a pistol caliber, and were talking pistol calibers.

If someone wants something better than 9mm 40 and 45, they're probably going to look at some 223 rifles. There's more 223 rifles than 7.62x25mm out there. That's if the said buyer is thinking practically.

You see what I'm trying to say? The purposes have been covered by the common chamberings in both pistol and rifle cartridges. Rounds like the x25 get left out because there's not enough room for them in the market except for collectors who prize replica SMG's or c&r pistols that use x25.

I didn't start an argument to say "I don't want to see a tokarev carbine", rather I was giving my views on why we are unlikely to see anything new anytime soon.

Joe the Redneck
February 15, 2008, 06:01 PM
I think the whole idea of a round needed to be "practical" is just downright silly. There are hundreds of rounds out there. If you had to, we call all manage with the 22lr, 357 mag, 30-06, and 375 HH. Nor do I think we should have to worry about how many layers of armor something will go through. I though we all grew out of our "SHTF" or "EOTWASKI" years ago.

Shootng is fun. I like making cans jump around and putting little round holes in paper.

I think a 7.62x25 would be fun, or any 30 caliber handgun round for that matter. Something that wouldn't have the oomph than a 22, but not as much recoil as a rifle round.

Would it serve any real need? Nope, Just fun to shoot.

Joe

lesjones
February 15, 2008, 09:32 PM
"First, don't ever rely on surplus ammo. It's here today, tomorrow it's nowhere to be found."

Yep. What's cheap changes every couple of years. If that's the attraction, stock up on cheap ammo while you can.

For fun guns it's worth buying a new surplus gun every now and then to shoot the cheap surplus ammo de jeur. But I wouldn't build an armory around what ammo's cheap now, because that changes fairly frequently.

Mosin-Nagants are hawt right now because both the guns and ammo are cheap. When the inevitable day comes when neither is cheap M-Ns will suddenly be seen as not-very-accurate five shot bolt actions that don't seem all that sexy except to historical collectors.

gaudio5
February 15, 2008, 09:41 PM
for the record there IS WWB in 7.62x25 im looking at a case of it on my floor right now pix anyone?

Skofnung
February 15, 2008, 09:47 PM
Call me weird, but I'd love a scaled down Mauser with a 10 shot magazine in this caliber.

Spiggy
February 16, 2008, 03:50 AM
Skofnung:
I'm totally with you on this one; for someone living where bushmaster and keltec .223 pistol's don't meet ridiculous "legal" standards

MechAg94
February 16, 2008, 06:55 PM
I saw the Military Gun Supply people at the Houston gun show today (George R. Brown CC). They were selling the Sig P225 used pistols is the reason I stopped by. Anyway, the guy had a couple of the "pistol" 43's and 44's shown on their site. He said they would have carbines available within a couple weeks to a month. Just in case anyone wants to get one.

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=14_15&zenid=b1kstoe6i4ph2v85orhaaf5085


Regarding these guns. I was mulling over getting one. A Thompson subgun clone would be just a little more money and in a caliber I already have. Decisions, Decsions.... :D

Cannonball888
February 18, 2008, 10:22 AM
9mm, 40sw, and 45acp cover the niche effectively. There's nothing practically that the 7.62x25 tokarev round can do that the previous three popular rounds won't do.
I disagree. 7.62x25 tokarev has way more penetration than the other three.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

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