[Higgins]

Regardless of other concerns like available platforms, concealability, reliability, etc...., if you absolutely had to stop a bad guy, what "standard" semi-auto cartridge/load would you choose? .45, 10mm, 9 mm, ?

[sanchezero]

:D

[10-Ring]

I like the 45 acp because it is easy for me to shoot it well & its performance is legendary. But really, using modern defensive ammo in most calibers should yield you good results in this venture regardless of which caliber you end up chosing.

[Preacherman]

Caliber is irrelevant in such a situation. When you absolutely, positively must stop a BG, head shots are the way to do it. Shut down the brain stem, and everything else stops instantly. Whether you do it with a .22, a 9mm., a .45, or a .500 Linebaugh is irrelevant.

If you want REAL stopping power, no handgun will do it - go to a long gun, preferably a 12ga. or .308 (or larger).

[Ky Larry]

The one you shoot best with. For me the .45 ACP but whatever works for you. Shoot well and often.

[Redlg155]

I'm with the shotgun totin preacher here. Ditch the handgun and use a shotgun!:D

If I had to pick just one? The .45 ACP.

In my profession I see lots of 9mm holes in folks. Too many to be really comfortable with the caliber.

Good Shooting
Red

[Mike Irwin]

If I ABSOLUTELY had to stop someone?

40mm Bofors.


Everything else is crap shoot city.

[Loaded]

Hollow Points in .45 caliber.

[Quintin Likely]

10mm Auto.

[cool45auto]

:rolleyes:

[Gordon]

Mike Irwin: I found the 'dusters' hard to aim at a person in Nam! I did have sucess with a 1911a1 with ball though, only took 2 shots from 20 feet or less. Of course subject was running into muzzle and last one was in face!;)

[12-34hom]

I'll second the vote for 10mm, next to that 45acp if one is using a handgun.

3 inch mag in 12 guage with #1 buckshot would be my #1 vote getter.

12-34hom.

[Sean Smith]

This is an extremely silly topic. It is like asking what meat you like, independent of how it is cooked or if it is fresh. Fresh chicken is better than rotted beef, just like a reliable .22 is better than a .44 that jams.

Since I get to ignore everything about the actual gun itself, I pick .50 AE.

:evil:

[Mike Irwin]

"Mike Irwin: I found the 'dusters' hard to aim at a person in Nam!"

Yeah, the original sights were kind of high over the bore.

I've found that I do my best shooting with these using point shooting with a mid-body height grip.

Of course, the double barrel Borofs does make it a bit easier. Sight with the first barrel, fire for effect with the second...

Concealed carry for something this large IS just a little on the rough side, though.

[Moparmike]

16-inch cannon on an Iowa-class. If that wont stop them, time to get out the Tomahawk or the secretly stowed Apache. I always wanted my own battleship.:D

Never could figure out why any one in their right mind (but keep in mind that they are politicians:uhoh: ) would get rid of the Iowas.:cuss: :scrutiny: (Besides the money.):(

[sanchezero]

If you REALLY need a powerful handgun and you want a semi...

Get an AR-15 pistol and rechamber it for .50 Beowulf.

:D

[Waste of Money]

Whatever cartridge that I can routinely make solid headshots with.

Otherwise you're just rollin' dem bones... :(

[Dr.Rob]

I probably wouldn't reach for an auto loader.

Not with a .357 nearby. (did I really just say that?)

Yes I did.

Best auto loader for the job? Remington 11-87 12 ga.

[agtman]

"When Absolutely Have To Stop Bad Guy ..."


Yep. For a sure one-shot-stop, it's head shots only using a certified Zombie-load. :scrutiny:

But, of course, that means using the legendary 10mm Auto at full throttle. :cool:

[CZF]

10MM Silvertip! You guys that advocate Head Shots, crack me up!
Only in the military are head shots on bad guys acceptable.

Police and armed citizens should shoot to stop, not to kill.

[Whit]

Even with a million variables, I'd pick the .45 ACP. .....Whit

[Shaughn Leayme]

The 120 mm gun mounted on the AbramsA1:D If I miss :scrutiny:, I can always run him over:neener:

Seriously, the one that you can control the best, with good follow up shots.

My preference, in a man portable weapon would be the 45 ACP with either a 200 gold dot at +P levels or a 230 GD standard or +P

[Roadkill Coyote]

When Absolutely Have to Stop Bad Guy, What Auto Cartridge?
All of them, and then change magazines, and repeat... ;)

[faustulus]

.308 they use that in autos don't they?

[Ala Dan]

.45 ACP big and slow, gives the perp time to confess while he's bleeding out!

That is, if you don't take his head off first~

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Wildalaska]

Anything from .22 on up

WildheadshotAlaska

[Quartus]

When you absolutely, positively must stop a BG, head shots are the way to do it.



Hmmm. Odd that you don't hear any reputable national firearms instructors advocating head shots. Those nicompoops all seem to be stuck on this "COM, fire til the threat is gone" nonsense.

Strange. Must be because they are such pansies they can't bear the thought of killing anyone, so they prefer to endanger an officer's life by teaching them less than reliable methods of gunfighting. Yeah, that's it.


:rolleyes:

[Erik Jensen]

.50 BMG (it's auto, right?), headshot. :D :p :neener:

[Gordon]

" Strange. Must be because they are such pansies they can't bear the thought of killing anyone, so they prefer to endanger an officer's life by teaching them less than reliable methods of gunfighting" Yeah, that's it! Uh sure guy, it just could not be the FACT that almost NOONE can during the stress of a REAL WORLD GUNFIGHT hit a bobbing and weaving 4" target when you are bobbing and weaving. Why the heck do you think Jim Cirrullo is world famous? Do you know how much target shooting it took to get there? AND only one on many millions has the nervous makeup to apply such markmanship under tactical stress! :rolleyes: :banghead:

[sanchezero]

Hmmm. Odd that you don't hear any reputable national firearms instructors advocating head shots. Those nicompoops all seem to be stuck on this "COM, fire til the threat is gone" nonsense.

Hmmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe nearly all of the big boys of firearms training teach a failure to stop drill of some kind. A headshot is an integral part of such a drill; in fact it could be argued that the COM hits are really just to get the guys to stop all that bobbin' and weaving so you can put his lights out.

:p

[AnchorYanker23]

Winchester 230 grain RA45TP out of 1911. 'Nuff Said.

[denfoote]

.45 ACP 230gr Winchester USA JHP out of my Glock 30.

I practice head shots, don't you????? :confused:

[Kahr carrier]

45 ACP -HYDROSHOCKS.:)

[Quartus]

Uh, Gordon? That was sarcasm. Sorry you missed it. BTW, help us out here: the QUOTE function is easy to use. Check the left side of the screen for an "Enhanced Mode" button. Use that and your posts will be much easier to read. Like this:


Hmmm. Correct me if I'm wrong,

You're moslty wrong. COM til he drops is SOP. See Gordon's post for WHY. I know there are some (many?) who think they're so good that this doesn't apply to them ("I'm so rock solid I can shoot as well under the stress of combat as I do on my best day at the range!") but those who have BTDT don't buy it.

IF things are stable enough for a head shot - get over the idea that any head shot is a sure stopper. The sinus cavities actuallly make a pretty good bullet trap. The brain stem is actually lower than that anyway. A shot through the teeth is more likely to reach it. If you have a good penetrator (like a .357) you've got a much better chance with a headshot than with something like a 9mm, especially if you are shooting FMJ.

A head shot is a luxury. If it becomes clear that the BG is wearing a vest, of course you don't continue to pour lead into COM. Neck or head becomes a good choice at that point.

[Blackhawk]

Regardless of other concerns like available platforms, concealability, reliability, etc...., if you absolutely had to stop a bad guy, what "standard" semi-auto cartridge/load would you choose? .45, 10mm, 9 mm, ?

You've styled this old question in a fresh way, but the answer's the same.

It isn't the tool, it's the craftsman.

If I ever find myself shooting at a BG, it's a situation where I absolutely have to stop him, and I'm not going to have the luxury of using anything but what I happen to have at the time. In a self stuffer, that will be anything from .32 ACP 71gr FMJ up through .45 ACP RBCD.

Oh, and I won't be wasting time or ammo shooting at COM either.... :rolleyes:

(If the BG is too far away for a head shot, he's too far away to be shooting at. :cool: )

[Smoke]

45acp.

Big hole theory.

[LeonCarr]

Whatever you use, use the LeonCarr-3F method of shooting. Fire 'til the Felon Falls.

Given a choice, I like the 30mm GAU-8A on the A-10 Warthog :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[agtman]

Well, this thread took off.

I see nobody's recommending the 9mm - headshots or not. :rolleyes:

Gotta save the small stuff for target work and yappy poodles. :D

[Quartus]

Oh, and I won't be wasting time or ammo shooting at COM either....


Hmmm. I see I have a choice here. I can listen to the consensus advice of men who have spent their lives shooting and teaching to shoot, which includes getting regular input from hundreds of gun battles every year, studying it, discussing it with other professionals, trying new things and seeing what really works in the REAL world....

Or I can listen to others.

Give me a nanosecond to consider that....





:scrutiny:

[standingbear]

how bout 50 Action express from a desert eagle....:what:

[DBR]

Since you asked:
"Regardless of other concerns like available platforms, concealability, reliability, etc...., if you absolutely had to stop a bad guy, what "standard" semi-auto cartridge/load would you choose? .45, 10mm, 9 mm, ?"

I think 00 Buck in a 12ga semi auto should do the job.

Was this a trick question?

[Ian11]

9mm, .40, or .45

Usually Winchester 147 Ranger, Remington GS 165 grain, or Remington GS 230 grain respectively.

But gosh, I guess I've been wasting all this time with these standard calibers. I didn't know "Magic Bullets" existed. And the secret formula; More Power and Bigger Bullets. Duh. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Wow this really changes my perspective. I'm gonna have to look into strapping one of those big Desert Eagle's to my side. :rolleyes:

[jercamp45]

Hey all you Desert Eagle fans! Where you gonna carry that thing? In the new colonic holster designed by gay gents?
Um, gotta have it with you.....handguns are handy! The size you can pack and control.....it's gotta be a .45 auto...something with an Officer frame(personally) barrel length...take your pick.
Guess the Ten m/m would do too, but I have 1911's and like 'em, and carry one every dang day....got no reason to switch.
I'll take the 230 JHP's, plus P's.
If I knew caca was happenin', then I would have a reliable semiauto RIFLE with soft points in my hands!!
Head/hip Failure drills are common place and commonsence. So are stong/weak hand only. Not optimal for sure, but lets face it, if ya gotta start shooting....optimal has failed! Then it is time to rely on training, and hope you got your rockthrower not your nice light Keltec .32!!
Jercamp45

[WonderNine]

.25ACP.

Accept no substitute.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I'd want a pulse rifle in the 40 watt range.

Regards,
Rabbit.


(edit added) heehee...this is my 333'rd post. Does that make me half a beast?

[HBK]

9mm. Put it through the left eyehole, through the bottom of the skull, bounce it off the top of the skull (scrambling hte brains in the process), exit the right eyehole. Guaranteed one shot stop.:neener:

[jnb01]

I would feel comfortable with any of the popular service calibers (9mm, .40, .45, 357 Sig) when properly loaded, ie: Ranger, Federal Tactical, Gold Dot, ect........

It shouldn't be a question of which caliber is capable of performing best, but rather, which caliber is one capable of performing their best with. Ammunition exists that performs well in any of the calibers mentioned. However, none of them will compensate for poor shot placement. If bullets are not well placed, caliber will quickly become a moot issue.

Service caliber handguns are relatively underpowered defensive tools, and being that rifles and shotguns have failed, expectations of what their capable of should be realistic instead of Hollywood.

A related story that may be of interest.

David over at ammolabforum, posted of an irate hostage taker who had a pistol to a woman's neck. A sniper was given the green light to shoot, but the shot was apparently complicated by the BG holding the woman very close into his body as well as other hostages being present in the room. The sniper's weapon was a .308 rifle utilizing a 168gr bullet, he opted for a face/head shot, the bullet struck the BG's lower jaw/face area literally taking it off, the damage done being described as horrific, the BG looking like something out of a horror movie. However, the BG had enough time to get shots off, striking the hostage in the neck, before stumbling to the ground and expiring. Fortunately, the hostage survived. Prehaps if the sniper was able to place his shot COM, or more in the center head area, it would have been lights out instantly. Though as was mentioned, the shot was complicated by how the woman was being held.

The BG did of course die, though before doing so, he was still able to seriously injury his hostage. If a .308 rifle with less than ideal shot placement failed to instantly incapacitate despite inflicting a "horrific" wound, what should are realistic expectations of a service caliber handgun be? Particularly, if our shots are not well placed.

Best, jnb01

[Blackhawk]

To put it gently, jnb01, the sniper missed....

[Blackhawk]

Give me a nanosecond to consider that....There you go wasting time, Quartus....

[New_comer]

Ditto what HBK said.


9mm


Two to the heart...


and fourteen to the head, seven into each eye.


That should stop him.


I'm off... :neener::cool: :D

[Quartus]

There you go wasting time, Quartus....



Yep. That WOULD be a waste of time.


9mm. Put it through the left eyehole, through the bottom of the skull, bounce it off the top of the skull (scrambling hte brains in the process), exit the right eyehole. Guaranteed one shot stop.


Ah! You've been taking lessons from Blackhawk! But you made it even more obviously silly! Good work!

:D

[TheeBadOne]

12 Ga. Super Black Eagle 2 3/4 " high brass OO buck :D
You did say auto :p

[Schuey2002]

What auto cartridge? 10mm.
Out of which handgun? A Glock 20. ;)

[Blackhawk]

Quartus, you could actually figure it out for yourself if you weren't so focused on the opinions of so called "experts." :D

First off, let's flesh out "absolutely" a bit. A cyanide dipped BB will kill a BG -- eventually. It won't be of much help if the BG is armed, adrenaline stoked, and charging you from 7 yards, though. The context of the premise is that "absolutely" means "immediately" as in "drop the charging BG within 21 feet."

Here are a few things for you to think about:

1. Any hit is better than a miss, even though there are very few places you can hit a BG with a handgun that will "absolutely" stop him. Sure, a COM hit with a small gun eventually causes the BG to die in many cases, and that happens way too often with large guns as well.

2. The only places you can hit a BG to effectively ensure he's "absolutely" stopped are in the upper spinal column, brain stem, or brain. The problem in hitting the spinal column with a COM shot is all the stuff in front of it like clothes, fat, muscle, organs, etc., that tend to deflect and slow down the bullet so even if the flight trajectory was perfect, the bullet may not have any effect on the spinal column.

3. "Expert" instructors teach COM shooting because (a) almost anybody can hit a BG COM from 7 yards, (b) any hit is better than a miss, and (c) the student develops more confidence in his skills under that syllabus.

4. If the actual "absolutely" stopping areas were marked on the target and the instructor taught that if one of them is not hit, the student would be dead, then the student would get another instructor so he could feel better about his inadequate skills.

5. It's a good idea when relying on any gun to think that you're using a single shot weapon. The odds of getting a second shot are considerably less than the first for MANY reasons that have nothing to do with the gun's reliability. They include the BG's attack, second shot recovery, and a host of other things. Regarding semi-autos, has ANYBODY had a jam on the first round that's already in the pipe...?

[jnb01]

Blackhawk, as explained, the sniper had very little room for error due to the positioning of the female hostage and other's in the room. A 168gr .308 bullet would seem quite capable of penetrating the assailant and the hostage, or prehaps another innocent close by, which is obviously not what they want. This situation allowed a very limited window for a safe shot, and as originally mentioned, shot placement was not "ideal".

The jest of the example is that even high powered rifles can fail to instantly incapacitate with less than ideal shot placement, even though they are capable of inflicting much more severe damage. With that noted, what then should realistically be expected from a service caliber handgun, particularly with peripheral hits? At rifle velocities shock can occurr due to stretch cavities far greater in size, allowing tissues outside the immediate path of the bullet to be damaged, at pistol velocities this does not happen. At rifle velocities a bullet that yaws or fragments is also of course capable of producing more trauma, two factors not commonly associated with handgun wounding effectiveness.

Given that the wounding mechanism's associated with rifles can't be duplicated using an underpowered service caliber handgun, shot placement would seem even more critical. Regarding handguns, bigger bullets simply crush more tissue, another reason bullets that expand and become larger (jhp's) are desireable, irrespective of the caliber selected. Caliber debates aside, it is quite simple really, one should choose the caliber that they are most proficient with, select a top tier jhp design, then train to continually improve their skill level.

It always amazes me when I go to the range, and see folks of all shapes and sizes struggling to accurately place their shots simply because they can't handle the gun they are shooting. If one can't handle their weapon well at the range, how will they be able to manage it under stress, wether on the street or in their home?

Best, jnb01

[Blackhawk]

All good points, jnb01. I wasn't trying to be flippant by summarizing the incident by saying the sniper missed, but it could seem that way. The fact probably is that the sniper had to "miss" the ideal placement for the reasons you mentioned. However, the shot was effective and tactically correct. When a hostage is so restrained, there simply may not be a way to resolve the situation without accelerating the potential harm to the hostage. Some situations require that hostages be considered "dead anyway" if action isn't taken, and the anecdote you related seems like one of them.

You're exactly right about the ballistic effects of various bullets. Placement is everything!

You're also exactly right about people trying to use guns that they really can't handle. :(

[David4516]

Moparmike, I agree with you 100% about the battleships. If old Ironsides is still in commission, why can't they keep an Iowa class too? They are just too darn cool...

Anyway, the 16 incher should give you the stopping power you'll need, even if the bad guy has body armor :D

If it has to be from a handgun, bigger is better, .50 AE would be good. But really, anything .380 ACP or better sould be okay, as long as you hit what you aim at.

I carry a 9mm Makarov, and as long as I do my part, it will stop the bad guy...

[Jeff Timm]

Loaded unloaded: Hollow Points in .45 caliber.

Second the opinion.

200 gr. hollowpoints.

Geoff
Who doesn't much care what you use to launch 'um.

[Sludge]

Well, this is an arguement that will never be over. MY preference is the smaller caliber, and I will tell ya why. In a home environment, I dont want to over penetrate walls etc no more than I have to if I miss. Secondly, while I love the .45 and I carry one alot out of my affection for it, I can control the 9mm better at my current skill level. I can pump two 9mm bullets in a target in a controlled way much faster than I can do it with .45ACP, and in a much sloppier stance. Im sure that if the bullets are flying my stance is probably going to be less than perfect as well as my grip if im not careful. The 9mm is just more controllable. So, at the end of the day, rounds on target is the goal. 2 little rounds make a bigger wound channel than one big round. So, I guess im for the 9mm / .38spl camp. No lower though... penetration just isnt there in .32 etc.

Now, if I were in a less urban environment I start liking the .40 better. I think the .40 is a nice balance of speed and power. 357 SIG is a mean little rascal too. If I were an IDPA master class shooter, I would probably go for the .45ACP. Its all about what the shooter can control IMHO.

As far as stopping power goes, I think its worth mentioning that the mindset of the criminal will greatly effect the stopping power of the shot. For instance many ppl when they find they have even a flesh wound are incapacitated. The psychological impact of it just stops em. While some.. require bleeding out to stop. Does that make any sense?

Head shots? Nope, im gonna aim center mass on that mover and hope that my index and muscle memory carries me though. No heart and lungs.. fight is gonna be over soon..

[CZ52GUY]

.40s&w JHP...although I'd actually prefer 12ga or 7.62x39 in a "must stop" scenario...

Let's hope we never have to...

CZ52'

[Blackhawk]

Pretty grey answer eh?Nope. Very well said, Sludge! :D

You've stated your preferences, and they're well considered.

But mine are a little different.... :)

[MCNETT]

I'd use what I have on my hip. Most of the time that is my Glock 29- 10mm
=Mike

[foghornl]

Rem. 230-Gr Golden Sabre launched from my Springfield 1911-A1.

[Quartus]

Blackhaw, a sniper shot with a rifle is a VERY different thing from gun battle with a handgun. If the massive gulf between those two is not immediately obvious to you, well, that explains a lot.

And, lacking a significant amount of experience with handgun battles, myself, I'm much better off listening to those who make a living understanding and teaching it than some gun store commando who knows better than all of them and thinks he's so cool headed that he can make eyeball shots reliably in a gunfight.

But we agree (pretty much) in our assesment of Sludge's remarks. I happen to do very well with a .45, so that's MY choice. But I'm considering the 10mm and even (gasp!) the 357SIG when I can afford to properly evaluate them.

For now, I'm sticking with what I know.

[clubsoda22]

Well, if you want one shot stops regardless of any other concerns, just pick the biggest round out there, like .50AE or .475 wildey. Completely impractical, but it will sure stop a human, and just about any other thing on the planet, elephants, water buffalo....some older soviet tanks. :D

[Blackhawk]

For now, I'm sticking with what I know.So do I, Quartus, so do I.

However, you're not actually doing that. You're sticking with what others say THEY know.

Your comments on the sniper shot are totally non-sequitur, but that's no surprise based on other comments you've made.

Next time you've got the time on a range trip, you might find it valuable to paste up a shadow target with the guaranteed "absolute" one shot instant stop vital areas of the CNS. Do fast draw single shot drills against them. Note how many times you would die out of 100 rounds since you missed one of those areas. Personally, I die much more often taking COM shots.... :what:

[Quartus]

To paraphrase Bruce Lee, paper targets don't shoot back.


But I DO know how well I shoot. (It's not good enough yet.) And I've watched how well professionals shoot IDPA and IPSC. I have a hard time believing anyone who thinks he can shoot substantially better than that (There just aren't very many Enos's in the world.) , AND under the stress of combat. I know what that does to people, too. There's just not much reason to believe than anyone can reliably shoot someone in the eye with a handgun in combat. But it's not hard to show that most can train to hit reliably COM in combat.

And I know enough about anatomy and physiology to know from your comments that you know a great deal less than you think you do.

So, like I said, I'll stick with what I know. Which has been proven many times over.



BTW, the only reason I continue the discussion is for the sake of others who may be reading and might make the (possibly fatal) mistake of following your advice.

[Blackhawk]

Quartus, I'm not giving anybody any advice except for training, and that advice I gave to you. You didn't follow it, and I'm not sure you even understand it.

You do what you think best as everybody else should, but don't get your thong jammed just because somebody else doesn't agree with what you think is best.

You keep referring to shooting a BG "in the eye," which I would never try to do. My SD instant stop BG target is the middle of the face. I have a chance of being high or low and maybe wide in addition to my chance of being right on target. A "miss" might end up "in the eye" or the mouth or even the nose. Acceptable. A vital zone miss within COM, and even a direct hit without adequate penetration is unacceptable under the need to "absolutely stop" the BG.

There are multiple vital zones in the head that will result in an instant stop. Since you seem to think there are several in the COM, what are they?

Instead of taking advice from dead actors, why not prove things out for yourself?

[Deepdiver]

BELT FED


...when you absolutely, positively, have to stop the BG!

If that ain't available, empty the magazine of whatever other "autoloader" you have handy!

[1goodshot]

Im going to use my carry gun, Glock 22

[Stevie-Ray]

I'd say 10mm, 180 gr hollowpoint. Next would be .45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok. But I'll probably have the .45 on hand.

[444]

.458 SOCOM out of an autoloading AR15

[Quartus]

You keep referring to shooting a BG "in the eye," which I would never try to do.


That's from a statement you made over on TFL, that you could do so reliably. Maybe in target shooting you can, though I remain skeptical. (I assume we're not talking about stationary paper targets here. I can do pretty well on those, too.) Like I've said, I've seen what the top IPSC and IDPA guys can do. I have a hard time believing that you're that much better than them. And I know you think you are cool hand luke and won't get stressed in a real shooting situation. Mebbe so. There are a very few in the world who are that way, and mebbe you're one of them, but again, I remain skeptical.

But aside from the much increased chances of a clean miss when shooting for the head, it's not such a sure kill as you think. The sinus cavities are a pretty good bullet trap, and even a 10mm can bounce of a skull if it hits to the side where it's angled. A lot here depends on caliber and bullet choice of course. Hardball ain't your best bet.

Survivability is about reliability. Headshots are harder to hit reliably, and aren't nearly as certain to stop as multiple hits COM. And NOTHING from a handgun is a sure stop besides a shot to the brain stem. (Which is a tiny target and very difficult to get to from the front. From the back it's called murder.)

That's not my theory - that's what's been proven in hundreds of gun battles.

Not range sessions.

[45R]

GUYS GUYS relax....we are all on the same team!!!! :confused:

[Blackhawk]

Quartus, I do aim for and shoot targets "in the eye" at every opportunity. They're great aiming points! (Matter of fact, my favorite trick shot is "between the eyes" on a target from 50 feet -- with a KT P-32....) That's a lot different from shooting a "BG in the eye" as you say. A BG would be treated to COH (Center of Head) aka nose, if necessary.

I saw a movie titled "44 Minutes" or something like that last night. It was a reenactment of the BoA holdup in LA where the 2 robbers casually blasted civilians and LEOs with AK47s while absorbing numerous body hits from the police. They were wearing body armor. With their handguns, the police failed again and again to make any headshots despite knowing that their body hits were ineffective.

My old lament returned. "Why CAN'T the police make headshots when they KNOW that's what they need?" The answer's the same. They don't TRAIN to make headshots! If something's hard, train to do something harder to make the original problem much easier.

In a San Antonio restaurant a year or so ago, a muscle bound parolee beat up a couple of LEOs, used their guns to shoot them and a couple of other LEOs who answered the call, received multiple hits from the LEO who finally brought him down with a headshot. The parolee fell dead on the last LEO who had been shot multiple times himself. Glock .40 S&W. The last vignette had the felon and the LEO advancing toward each other shooting at close range! THAT BG was one who needed to be "absolutely" stopped, and it DID NOT happen until he took one in the face DESPITE multiple COM and other body hits.

Should the terrible situation occur where a BG intent on killing YOU has his FACE in front of your gun as big as a whole torso at 7 yards, I would certainly hope you would take the best opportunity of "absolutely" stopping, and I hope you would know what that is.

Shoot the eyes out of your targets at 25-50 feet just so you know you can. Then should the need arise, you'll be able to do what you need to do when a BG "absolutely" must be stopped.

[clubsoda22]

ever see the birdman weapons systems "Nuke .50" (www.birdman.org) It's a funny websight.

[Island Beretta]

The one that you won't miss with...:what: (moving target)

[tex_n_cal]

There was a story some years ago in Ayoob's column about a BG who was threatening suicide - when two officers arrived, the BG turned on them, snatched the policewoman's gun, killed her with it, and started after her partner. The surviving officer pumps a few 9mm's into him, he falls down, then starts to get back up. The LEO then in a panic fires at the head at close range, and hits the guy, spraying blood and hair everywhere. The BG looks up and says, "Oooh, you got me good that time!" and keeps getting up.

IIRC one more reload, a few more shots and the BG finally drops. Turned out the head shot had struck at an angle, cracking the skull, but glancing off. Only a couple of the body shots were effective.

The moral is, it IS a small target, and if you expect to hit it, be very good or lucky. Me I will stick to the .45 or 10mm and COM.

[Hypnogator]

.45 230-gr Hydra Shok. 'Nuff said.;)

[Blackhawk]

Turned out the head shot had struck at an angle, cracking the skull, but glancing off.That's either a near-hit or a near-miss, reader's choice.

Any place worth shooting is worth shooting twice....

[Erik]

.45acp, of the premium JHP 230 grain variety. (Which ever brand shoots best in your given gun will do.)

[David4516]

tex_n_cal,

I've read about that story in one of Ayoob's books. It was a .38, not a 9mm. The BG took about a dozen hits before he died, but one of the 2 LEOs was killed with just one .38 fired from her own gun.

If we look at only half of the story, you get two very different pictures of what a .38 will do:

"It took a dozen .38s to kill this guy, even with one to the head!"

Wow, .38 must really suck

Or

"LEO was killed instantly by a single .38 round"

Wow, one shot stop, .38 must be an awsome caliber


This just tells me that shot placement is the most important factor as long as you have a somewhat decent caliber pistol (anything .380 ACP or above if you ask me).

[Poohgyrr]

Based on the original question, no doubt about it, 10mm.

But I like 12Ga. & rifles better.

[kalibear45]

Desert Eagle .44magnum

[Pocket Pistol]

You said AUTO right ??
how about 30mm explosive / incendary.
Tough to conceal but definate one shot stop :)

[MicroBalrog]

Double-tap to the head with a Desert Eagle .50AE (JHP +P):evil:

[Futo Inu]

Well putting aside that it is a slightly silly question, I like the .45 just because, since it makes a slightly larger hole (even without any expansion), it has a slightly higher chance of hitting a major organ, blood vessel, CNS, or supportive bone structure that a smaller round just might miss or only graze (again, this is only in very close call situations, so we're talking about tiny advantages here), which just might cause the BG to shut down, or fall down, more quickly, if he's trying to kill me - and yes I'm shooting to stop the attack, not kill, as a civilian - that much is correct. I used to think 10mm was the shiz for carry, but it actually has less diameter, and potentially too much penetration. If I thought that a good .45 round would not penetrate far enough in 99% of circumstances, then I would go back to the 10mm, but that is not the case - I think the .45acp WILL penetrate far enough in 99% of the defensive scenarios. I can see carrying 10mm for a LEO duty weapon, since it would be much more likely that an LEO would have to say, shoot through a windshield to stop a BG than me as a civilian would - not saying this could never happen to a civilian, just that it's MORE LIKELY that an LEO would need this extra penetration in certain scenarios, for two reasons:

1. LEOs are flat-out more likely to need to use their guns on an absolute scale, and therefore the number of times where a real penetration scenario might come up are much higher, EVEN IF the percentage/proportion of extra penetration vs. regular penetration scenarios remain constant as between LEOs and civilians.
2. Civilians only have a legal right to protect their own lives and that of their loves ones, in most states, not the average "other citizen", whereas LEOs do have that right (and arguably duty as well - moral and departmental if not legal). So, for example, if some idjit is about to drive their car through a crowd of people, producing a scenario of imminent death or serious bodily injury to many in that crowd, Joe Q. Public should just jump out of the way of the car, not shoot the criminal driver (unless his loved one is in the crowd, but set that aside). LEOs, OTOH, have a right to shoot this idiot even though he doesn't have a loved one in the crowd, since his job is to protect the general public.

Thus, I would personally choose 10mm if I were an LEO as a duty gun, but use .45acp for carry if I know there's going to be a high likelihood of trouble.

[Sludge]

Well Futo, in North Carolina a citizen can use lethal force to stop any attack where fear of death or serious bodily injury or sexual assault is taking place. Not only in self defense or for immediate family, but anyone. On the victims property there is no duty to retreat, but in public there is one if it is possible to do so before lethal force can be used. Just FYI

Oh, and im shooting to stop.. if that means kill, then so be it. Im not going to go out of my way to try to wound a BG. If my hand goes to the gun, im aiming for the heart in most cases. Perhaps the head depending on the circumstances

[CZ52GUY]

The following "rant" is not directed against any individual post or poster...

I too live in a state where the movement to guarantee that "the rights of criminals to victimize shall not be infringed" has yet to be amended into our constitution.

To the contrary, the right of citizens to defend their person, the innocent, as well as their property is constitutionally guaranteed.

Beyond the RKBA, the fundamental right of self-defense is in jeopardy when the victim has to fear charges of "excessive response" or "vigilanteism" while the perpetrator need have no such fears...the perp is over the line anyway...it's the intended victim to whom the responsibility is being shifted which is maddening.

I'm appalled and disgusted by the laws which seek to diminish the fundamental right to self-defense...and frankly infuriated by those supposedly within the lawful gun owning community that would endorse these morally corrupt statutes.

BG's should be afraid, very afraid...we need to take back our rights not just to KBA but fundamentally to defend ourselves.

This thread poses a scenario where a BG must be "stopped" which in many circles is a code word for k-i-l-l-e-d so the BG will not be allowed to inflict serious harm on others.

We can debate the method and/or tools to be employed, but should be unified in the validity of the premise and the moral justification thereof...nonsense criminal-friendly statues notwithstanding.

Rant over...safe shooting,

CZ52'