.22-250 vs .308


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VetteV12
February 15, 2008, 11:17 PM
I want this for anything/everything. I'm sorry if this is a crazy question but I truely can't decide. :banghead: My hunting will be geared towards yotes, ground hogs, prarrie dogs, deer, elk, black bear, and gazelle. I will mostly be after yotes and deer. I don't really care what the little critters look like in the aftermath.

I sold my 8mm wich used to be my hunting rifle, stupid move I know, and now I'm just trying to get a good all round short action rifle that will deliver 500yrd shots on varmits and 300yrds on bigger stuff. I made a list of what I want my gun to do, and the .308 does win but only by a VERY small amount because it will take the big stuff. But the one thing I'm concerned with on varmits is accuracy. I know the .22-250 you can put 5 shots in a dime, but I've never handled a .308 before. Biggest rifle I've shot accuratly was a buddies .338 Lapua out to 400yrds and grouped 2 1/2". Will a .308 group 1/2" or so at 400yrds?

Thanks

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Harley Quinn
February 15, 2008, 11:26 PM
The 308 is an all around rifle and good for North American hunting for most anything you want to shoot, has a wide range of bullets and power.

22-250 is for the smaller game most would mention, it can take it all if proper placement, but not in the same class as the 308 for hunting bigger game. If you are looking for one gun to do it all, the 308 would be the choice for most I would think.

HQ

Joe the Redneck
February 15, 2008, 11:33 PM
You want a rifle that will be great for groundhogs and blackbear?

How is that supposed to work? You are going to overgunned for one and undergunned for the other.

Personally, I would rather an over shot grounghog than an undershot bear. :)

Joe

R.W.Dale
February 15, 2008, 11:37 PM
The chambering has virtually NOTHING to do with how accurate a rifle is or isn't

Will a .308 group 1/2" or so at 400yrds?

1/16th MOA:rolleyes: kinda unrealistic don't ya think

I doubt that you'll buy ANY factory rifle that'll do that regardless of the caliber

kir_kenix
February 15, 2008, 11:39 PM
out of the 2 u mentioned i think ur going to have to go w/ the .308. u can buy light varmint bullets, and heavier big game bullets. the .22-250 (which i love by the way), is more suited to a varmint/small deer rifle.

if u can truly only get one rifle, think about the bigger stuff u are going to have to shoot.
Personally, I would rather an over shot grounghog than an undershot bear.

couldnt have worded it any better then that!

EHCRain10
February 15, 2008, 11:41 PM
agree, go with the 308

VetteV12
February 15, 2008, 11:58 PM
Thanks guys, I will be going with the .308...and yes unfortunatly I'm only allowed one rifle and one handgun a year due to the wife. Luckly I've already picked out the handgun, Ruger SR9, and will be buying both in a couple weeks when I can get up to sportsman's wearhouse. It sucks living 1hr away from anything good. Gotta love small towns.

asknight
February 16, 2008, 05:54 AM
and yes unfortunatly I'm only allowed one rifle and one handgun a year due to the wife

She must be paying for it with those kind of rules... :o

ugaarguy
February 16, 2008, 06:19 AM
I'd strongly advise you look at something in 30-06. Unless you plan to start handloading you'll be stuck with factory ammo. With a 30-06 you can get the Remington factory loaded Accelerator ammo, which is a 55gr .223 in a sabot for your varmint hunting. A scope like the Burris Sako Quad (http://www.burrisoptics.com/special.html) would give you the ability to set zeros for the Accelerators and three other hunting loads. If you're stuck with one rifle a 30-06 will give you the widest variety of factory ammo. Otherwise go .308 so you at least aren't under-gunned at the large end of the animals you wish to hunt.

hamourkiller
February 16, 2008, 06:24 AM
My God! Go with the 30-06!

It's only been the best all round North American Rifle for 100 + years!
.308 was cut down in size and performance so it would fit into machine guns better. 110gr bullets for varmits to 220 gr bullets for big stuff. The .308 will not handle heavy bullets as well as the 30-06.
22-250 is a varmit cartridge that can work on deer sized animals with precise bullet placement. It is not versatile in the way the .308 or 30-06 are.

At this moment in time, 30-06 ball is cheaper than .308 ball. CMP has M2 ball @ .26C per round. Buy it, shoot it, then reload it. Cheapest big rifle stuff around.

Have fun with whatever you get.

ugaarguy
February 16, 2008, 06:40 AM
Or I suppose you could get a Steyr Luxus (http://www.steyrarms.com/index.php?id=171) ;) and a spare barrel if she'd approve. Realistically though, have thought about a T/C Encore (http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encore.php)? Or a Handi Rifle (http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/youth.aspx) from H&R and then sending it off for a spare barrel (http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.aspx) to be fitted?

JWarren
February 16, 2008, 09:59 AM
I want this for anything/everything.


No such thing, really. There are tools that can do multiple tasks, but not all ideally. Its better to prioritize your needs and plan to get the right tools in the order you need them.

My hunting will be geared towards yotes, ground hogs, prarrie dogs, deer, elk, black bear, and gazelle. I will mostly be after yotes and deer. I don't really care what the little critters look like in the aftermath.

Ok... someone's gotta say it... gazelle? I assume you are planning on taking this rifle on a trip.

But we are looking for an idea rifle for taking everything from ground hogs to black bear? I'd say go with something that will absolutely kill a black bear if that is your need. I woudn't want to be shooting black bear with a 22-250.

Like others have said here, I'd rather have dead black bear and a vaporized ground hog than a well-shot ground hog and a pissed-off black bear.

I made a list of what I want my gun to do, and the .308 does win but only by a VERY small amount because it will take the big stuff. But the one thing I'm concerned with on varmits is accuracy. I know the .22-250 you can put 5 shots in a dime, but I've never handled a .308 before.

Caliber is one factor, but the platform is another. There are .308's that will show exceptional accuracy and some will show not-so-exceptional accuracy.

I've had several .308 military-style semi-autos. Some have been great guns. But I would have never expected them to deliver the accuracy that is seen from a friend of mine's Remington 40X in .308.

A discussion of caliber leaves out a VERY important component-- the platform.

Will a .308 group 1/2" or so at 400yrds?

Tall order for ANY rifle-- ESPECIALLY if we are talking about hunting conditions. You are unlikely to get the same accuracy from a hunting trip that you will from a bench-rest.


Now... since we are talking about up to 500 yard shots, I'll do my best to give some thoughts.


I'll assume you are on a fairly tight budget since we are seeking a firearm to do these multiple roles. I'll try to operate within those parameters.

I think it's a forgone conclusion that .308 would be the better choice in caliber if you foresee yourself shooting at a bear. Set aside the safety reasons-- for HUMANE reasons, you have no business shooting a black bear with a 22-250 in any circumstances beyond self-defense. If a 22-250 is all you have, don't go bear hunting. That's just my take on it.

If you can live without shooting medium-sized or larger game, we can have another discussion. But for now, I'll stick with the .308.

There are STILL other factors you have to consider beyond the caliber as I mentioned earlier.

Let's start with a platform that can deliver good accuracy on a lower budget. I'd most likely go with a Savage .308 with the accutrigger. Savage has been showing exceptional accuracy for a very good price.

Now... can you see your target?

A lot of people skimp on the optics. I've done it. I've regretted it.

Quality optics will probably be the best money towards accuracy that you can spend. In hunting conditions, there are other varibles to this as well.

Around here, most of our mid-sized game hunting is done in low-light conditions. In this circumstance, the BEST quality glass is the best money spent. A larger objective lens does help, but it is no substitute for higher quality glass with better light transmission. I've learned this from experience.

Recently, I have seen that a Nikon Prostaff 3x9x40mm will transmit a LOT more light in low light conditions than a Simmons 3x9x50mm.


According to the folks at OpticsTalk.com, the best light transmission can be found with Kahles optics. You'll pay for those.


Now... what about recticle? At 500 yards on small targets, you'll probably be better off with a fine crosshair-- which will allow for more minute aiming. I frankly HATE fine crosshairs for the type of hunting we do. They get lost too easily in low-light situations. A du-plex or #4 crosshair works better here.

Now... what type of adjustment does the turrents offer? Most of the better optics will have 1/8 MOA adjustment increments. At 500 yards, I wouldn't take less than that.


Magnification will be the next issue. I like having the option of higher magnification, but I also am aware that the higher the magnification, the lower my light transmission. I seem to have read that beyond 6X out of a 50mm objective, your light transmission begins to deteriorate significantly. Even so, 500 yards is a long shot-- especially if we are shooting groundhogs (or vaporizing them with a .308) I'd like to have the option of dialing up the magnification. You can always dial back down if you wanted to. For this, I'd lead towards something like a 4X-16X variable. I also like the 2.5X-10X variable option. These, however, often put you into a tad more money due to which models of optics are offered in that range.


So... back to our .308 budget tack-driver.


If it were me, and I had to do this on a reasonable budget, I may consider...

--A Savage 110 in .308 (I'd try for the heavy barrel option)

--GOOD scope mounts. Don't skimp here.

--I would look to one of the following optics:

Nikon Monarch
Bushnell 4200 (or 3200 if you had to)
Ziess Conquest
Leupould Varx-III (the Varx-II is not in the same league)


IF those are all too expensive, a Nikon Prostaff or Buckmaster could perhaps be subsituted.


Play around with those models and see what you can get in terms of:

- Objective size
- Recticle style
- Magnification


Even so, I hope you have realistic expectations on accuracy. As mentioned earlier, 1/16 MOA at 500 yards is an unrealistic expectation.



Hope that helps.


-- John

redneck2
February 16, 2008, 10:14 AM
OK, so something else in the mix. If it were me and I was getting one gun, it would most likely be a .270. If you look at the ballistics on the .270, it actually comes pretty close to shooting as flat as the 22-250. Enough power for elk and bear. Perfect for deer and antelope.

Back in "the day" we didn't have such things as a varmint rifle. We just used my uncle's .270 in our pasture fields for groundhogs. Worked pretty well.

Actually if it were me, I'd get a construction job over a few week-ends, make $200 per weekend cash, and get what I wanted. Heck, you can mow 10 lawns and get enough money for another gun.

Harley Quinn
February 16, 2008, 10:28 AM
You mentioned the 308 and 22-250 so I addressed them:uhoh: But since others have come on board about the 06 and 270 I'll mention this.

The 06 would be my choice if you are going to start comparing these various ones mentioned, and if you are going to reload, I'd definitly go with the 30-06.

I figure you are going to be in a bolt action rifle, so the action of shorter rounds for semi auto is not a factor. The 270 and 30-06 are very close to each other in the rounds that are comparable, the 30-06 can get up into the heavies and be really good on bigger game where the 270 is lacking in that department.

It has been mentioned about the accelerator round that is available also in the 06, no longer is it made for the 308 (use to be though). The plinker 100 grain could be a fun round also. So you would be able to go from a 100 grain or 110 to 220+ in the 06,+ you have the accelerator round...Hard to beat for one gun guys.

:D

CZ223
February 16, 2008, 10:56 AM
someone has not mentioned buying a Savage in 308 and a barrel in 22-250 yet so I just did. :evil: I recently installed a 22-250 barrel on my Savage BVSS that was a 308. The 22-250 is already shooting sub half MOA. The 308barrel was a sub MOA shooter but I just had no need for a 308 so I sold it to a friend. It is incredibly easy to switch barrels so this might be a good compromise.

Ratshooter
February 16, 2008, 01:22 PM
One rifle for everything is a dream as old shooting and as unattainable as a dream. The two barrels for the Savage is a good idea. The 270 is a good suggestion also.

If you can only have 2 guns per year you should have bought your two in 2007 and a new rifle in january 2008. You really need two rifles for the parameters that you set down. One will never be correct for small varmits and and large bears.

I think a 25-06 might be OK if you handload with premium bullets for the big stuff. For shooting PDs its gonna wear on you after awhile and its still not right for what you want to do. Think TWO rifles.

rangerruck
February 16, 2008, 01:26 PM
a 22.250 will do all that stuff, if it is semi auto, and you are within 50 yards of the bear. Otherwise, a 22.250 will take every other animal you mentioned, inside of 300 yds.

VetteV12
February 18, 2008, 09:52 PM
Ok... someone's gotta say it... gazelle? I assume you are planning on taking this rifle on a trip

Nope, I live in new mexico and I'm in the military which means I can hunt them here on base. They where brought here along time ago and now there's too many of them so they let us buy a tag and go hunting.

As to the rifle issue, the reason I'm asking is because I can only have one rifle a year. So I'm simply trying to figure out which one will be best suited for a more "all round" kinda game. I'm not implying I'm going to shoot a bear with a .22-250 :eek: just stating I will be going for one some time this year possibly (over the counter tags). Sorry for the confusion guys, and for the rifle/scope setup it's going to be a savage 12FVSS w/ a Bushnell 4200 6-24x50mm w/ mill dot. I just need to know the caliber in which to shoot. I'm set on these 2 calibers for a simple reason of I like short action rifle's and I know a .308 with the right bullet will do just as well as an 06 and possibly better.

asknight
February 18, 2008, 10:07 PM
I know a .308 with the right bullet will do just as well as an 06 and possibly better.

How? :rolleyes:

VetteV12
February 18, 2008, 10:41 PM
I'm just comparing ballistics. .308 Winchester Super-X Centerfire Rifle Cartridge, 150-Grain Power-Point Bullet, 2820 fps and a .30-06 Springfield Super-X Centerfire Rifle Cartridge, 150-Grain Power-Point Bullet, 2920 fps.

To me 100 fps isn't anything to worry about. You just adjust for whatever it is you're shooting. I've known people to take deer out to 500 yrds with both. So I guess it's just a personal preference, to me the 308 is just as good as the 06. Just my 2 cents.

Lucky
February 18, 2008, 10:55 PM
I learned that 7.62x39 will richochet off soil and pasture land at 50m and under, so that's not safe for gophers unless you have a lot of distance behind.

And don't kidd yourself, you will be buying many more guns. Embrace each use as another excuse to rationalize an inevitable expenditure.

22-rimfire
February 18, 2008, 11:32 PM
I would prioritize by use or perceived need "this year" with a rifle that will be nearly perfect for the task at hand. What are you going to hunt this year? My suspicion is that it will be the 22-250 now and the 308 later on. You'll probably have more fun with the 22-250. Next year you can do the larger 30 cal or perhaps go with something a bit bigger with more reach like a 300 win mag or 7mm at that time (as long as you're willing to accept the added recoil). You seem to be interested in long shots. Skip bear hunting this year or borrow a rifle someone you know has to have an -06 lying around gathering dust.

IndianaBoy
February 19, 2008, 12:43 AM
Save your money on the Ruger SR9 until they get all the problems figured out.

Mosey on over to the Rugerforum and see all the guys with excessive peening on the locking surface of their barrels.


I like the Rugers that I own, but I wouldn't buy an SR9 right now.

You would be better served by a Glock, XD9, or Smith and Wesson M&P.

skinewmexico
February 19, 2008, 09:34 AM
So you're oryx hunting in White Sands? We saw one on the highway a few weeks ago, I wouldn't even consider a 22-250.

Harley Quinn
February 19, 2008, 10:23 AM
Yea a nice short through, or long in the 06, 308 dia. in 130 grainer, do the job on the Oryx for sure.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bc.htm
HQ;)

All4eyes
February 19, 2008, 11:06 AM
I would like to suggest a .243. I have taken everything from deer to PDogs. It will cover more of the peramiters that you are seeking. I have an 06, .22-250, and a 243, and the 243 is a more "all around gun."
I have shot deer with .22-250 and it will get the job done, but the .243 will do it better.

jkingrph
February 19, 2008, 11:18 AM
I know he said 22-250 or .308, but remember the 30-06 is never wrong!

cmidkiff
February 19, 2008, 12:06 PM
...I know the .22-250 you can put 5 shots in a dime, but I've never handled a .308 before. Biggest rifle I've shot accuratly was a buddies .338 Lapua out to 400yrds and grouped 2 1/2". Will a .308 group 1/2" or so at 400yrds?

A .308 is a better 'all around' cartridge than a .22-250, no doubt about it. Many a varmint has met his (rather explosive) end from either, but a .22-250 isn't very suitable to larger game.

I'm quite sure a .22-250 can put 5 shots in a dime, depending on the range, wind, quality of the rifle, with match grade ammo that the rifle likes, and real good glass... oh, and a very good shooter :)

1/8th MOA is a very high goal... If this is really your expectation, you should be looking at a dedicated bench rest rifle, not an 'all around' hunting rifle.

1 MOA is a much more realistic goal, and is sufficient for nearly any hunting application. Many off the shelf rifles are capable of 1 MOA, at least it is reasonable to expect this kind of performance.

Long range varminting is a specialized field, and really calls for a specialized rifle. A 2" target, like a prairie dog, at 400 yards would call for a 1/2 MOA capable rifle... and some real good shooting! That Savage, in either caliber, bedded in a good stock, with very good glass might very well achieve 1/2 MOA, but then again, it might require a good deal more work to get there.

VetteV12
February 19, 2008, 09:05 PM
I've been looking into the .243 Win that you guy's have suggested. I never even looked at it, but to my suprize I kinda like it! The ballistics are great and price on ammo is just about the same, and I can still get the 12BVSS in that caliber too...and with this I can still take deer size game with the 100gr bullets (correct me if I'm wrong) and pop Pdogs out to around 400yrds no problem. All of this makes me very happy. THANK YOU GUYS!!! :D

Only question I have left is, will a 1:9.25 twist on that savage rip apart the lighter bullets?

So you're oryx hunting in White Sands?
Yes I ment oryx, sorry about that.

Harley Quinn
February 19, 2008, 11:06 PM
The 6mm or 243 is a fine caliber and should do the job for you ok, as long as you stayed with in the confines of what it can do on big game which is a placed shot at a distance that is not to far away for the capibility of the bullet (which is with most calibers).

The big thing I would believe is the ability to find the prarie dog at 400 yds (scope) and shoot it :uhoh:

The 6mm is no where close to the 308 as an all around caliber though (that you were asking about) IMHO

HQ

Javelin
February 19, 2008, 11:09 PM
Stick with the .308. The bullets cost the same if not cheaper than the 22-250.

:)

readr1
February 19, 2008, 11:19 PM
Go with a T.C. Encore... then just acquire barrels. One pistol\rifle, many calibers.

gunmn74
February 19, 2008, 11:33 PM
I am from Colorado and now live in Kansas and the 22-250 is not
legal to hunt Deer or Elk in either state.
Everyone I know in Colorado that uses one rifle for Elk and Yotes
uses a 25-06. I personaly have killed many Yotes with a 22-250
and love the cartridge but would not want to use it on 1200 lb
Elk. I have also shot Yotes with a 7mm (my old Elk rifle) and they
were in no shape for skinning after that.

kount_zer0
February 19, 2008, 11:48 PM
Short action: .308, maybe 7mm-08 if you lean towards small game (and hand load)

Long (std) action: 30-06 hands down. Maybe 25-06 or .270 if you lean towards small game.

Get a Savage, or CZ. Best triggers out of box.

Spend LOTS on optics for pdogs at 500yds.

Large game: a 2-7 X 32 is ideal for woods and field. Good glass pays big dividends!

CZ223
February 19, 2008, 11:48 PM
That doesn't mean that it is a bad idea but it isn't particularly well suited to either chore. It is a bit too big for the small stuff and much too small for the big stuff. The 308 is probably the best way for you to go. By the way you mentioned both the Savage BVSS (awesome choice in my opinion) and the FVSS, either is a good choice and factory takeoff barrels are readily available at decent prices. If you were to shop around you might be able to find a gun and an extra barrel for the price of a new gun. The 308/22-250 combo is as perfect as it gets. You simply switch the barrels and sight in your rifle and you are ready to go. You might want to go over to www.savageshooter.com and do a little research.

ccd
February 20, 2008, 01:21 AM
If Gemsbok(Oryx) are a good possibility you are most likely stuck with the 308 Win or larger.

xring3
February 20, 2008, 02:32 AM
this is just a thought....sometime in the future Howa is supposed to come out with a 6.5x55 cal (swede mauser) rifle....I was planning on getting one to use on prairie dogs and coyotes at long range...I like the idea of using a long thin 140 grain bullet that would buck the Oklahoma winds...It could also be used on deer and some larger game.

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