[Cosmoline]

Watching the "Sniper Challenge" and seeing how crappy the existing rifles performed beyond 800 meters got me thinking. Our military really doesn't have anything between the mild 7.62 NATO and the big fifty. IIRC, the Army uses the .300 Win Mag, but while nice that's only a bit better than a hot .30'06. So what would be the ideal magnum for military sniping?

[Duncan Idaho]

.338 Lapua

[Preacherman]

Agree on the .338 Lapua. IIRC, it was developed specifically as a military sniping round, with emphasis on "bridging the range gap" between the typical .30-caliber rifles and the .50 BMG monsters. Recoil is heavy, but this can be managed with training and a decent recoil system. (On this point, why hasn't the military discovered Kick-Eez (http://www.kickeez.net/) recoil pads? They work just great on shotguns, and I would think that on a heavy-recoiling rifle, they'd be the bee's knees...)

[444]

I am no sniper and never have been, but I don't think they need anything between the 7.62 NATO and the .50 BMG. Where one drops off, the other one picks up the slack nicely. Anything else would just duplicate the vast majority of the performance already found in the other two calibers. The military doesn't need things to be more complicated. Anything that can be done with the calibers you name can already be done with the .50 BMG. If you feel that the .50 BMG is too much gun for the task, then the .308 should be the bee's knees.

[WonderNine]

What can you do with the .338 that you can't do with the .300 magnum?

[Duncan Idaho]

Conley Precision Cartridge

338 Lapua Ballistic Table



Bullet Type & Weight Muzzle Velocity / Energy 100 Yard 200 Yards 300 Yards 400 Yards 500 Yards

200 Gr. Spire Point 3250 / 4690 +1.23 / 2968 / 3913 +0.00 / 2700 / 3239 -6.02 / 2448 / 2661 -17.83 / 2212 / 2173 minus 36.75in. / 1993 / 1763
200 Gr. Barnes X 3250 / 4690 +1.17 / 3018 / 4044 +0.00 / 2795 / 3470 -5.61 / 2582 / 2961 -16.48 / 2380 / 2515 -33.43 / 2189 / 2128
200 Gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip 3250 /4690 +1.19 / 3005 / 4005 +0.00 / 2768 / 3400 -5.72 / 2545 / 2875 -16.85 / 2330 / 2412 -34.34 / 2131 / 2017
210 Gr. Barnes XBT 3250 / 4924 +1.15 / 3033 / 4289 +0.00 / 2824 / 3718 -5.50 / 2624 / 3209 -16.09 / 2432 / 2758 -32.52 / 2251 / 2361
210 Gr. Nosler Partition 3250 / 4924 +1.20 / 2995 / 4183 +0.00 / 2752 / 3531 -5.79 / 2520 / 2961 -17.08 / 2300 / 2471 -34.89 / 2098 / 2051
225 Gr. Spire Point 3000 / 4496 +1.55 / 2755 / 3790 +0.00 / 2521 / 3175 -7.04 / 2301 / 2646 -20.61 / 2095 / 2193 -42.18 / 1903 / 1808
225 Gr. Hornady SST 3000 / 4496 +1.47 / 2798 / 3910 +0.00 / 2604 / 3386 -6.63 / 2418 / 2921 -19.17 / 2242 / 2511 -38.62 / 2075 / 2151
225 Gr. Swift A-Frame 3000 / 4496 +1.56 / 2747 / 3768 +0.00 / 2506 / 3136 -7.12 / 2280 / 2596 -20.90 / 2069 / 2137 -42.88 / 1871 / 1749
225 Gr. Barnes X 3000 / 4496 +1.47 / 2797 / 2908 +0.00 / 2602 / 3382 -6.64 / 2416 / 2915 -19.19 / 2239 / 2505 -38.68 / 2072 / 2144
225 Gr. TBBC 3000 / 4496 +1.56 / 2747 / 3768 +0.00 / 2506 / 3136 -7.12 / 2280 / 2596 -20.90 / 2069 / 2137 -42.88 / 1871 / 1749
225 Gr. Nosler Partition 3000 / 4496 +1.49 / 2785 / 3875 +0.00 / 2579 / 3321 -6.75 / 2383 / 2835 -19.59 / 2197 / 2411 -39.64 / 2022 / 2045
250 Gr. Spire Point 2850 / 4508 +1.77 / 2630 / 3839 +0.00 / 2421 / 3253 -7.69 / 2224 / 2745 -22.41 / 2038 / 2305 -45.56 / 1864 / 1927
250 Gr. Speer Grand Slam 2850 / 4508 +1.77 / 2630 / 3839 +0.00 / 2421 / 3253 -7.69 / 2224 / 2745 -22.41 / 2038 / 2305 -45.56 / 1864 / 1927
250 Gr. Swift A-Frame 2850 / 4508 +1.78 / 2628 / 3833 +0.00 / 2417 / 3243 -7.71 / 2218 / 2731 -22.49 / 2031 / 2290 -45.75 / 1856 / 1911
250 Gr. Nosler Partition 2850 / 4508 +1.74 / 2650 / 3895 +0.00 / 2457 / 3351 -7.48 / 2275 / 2873 -21.67 / 2103 / 2454 -43.78 / 1940 / 2088
250 Gr. Barnes X 2850 / 4508 +1.70 / 2667 / 2949 +0.00 / 2492 / 3446 -7.31 / 2324 / 2999 -21.01 / 2165 / 2602 -42.14 / 2014 / 2251
275 Gr. Swift A-Frame 2725 / 4533 +1.98 / 2528 / 2900 +0.00 / 2341 / 3344 -8.29 / 2163 / 2857 -24.00 / 2000 / 2435 -48.56 / 1840 / 2060


A typical .300 Win. Mag. load will have a drop in the range of minus 65 in. @ 500 yds vs. minus 36.75 in. @ 500 yds. for the .338 Lapua.

Typical Win. Mag loads don't exceed 200 grs. although 220 gr. bullets are readily available.

All things being equal or better, the .338's 275 gr. bullet will also retain more energy downrange. Objects in motion tend to remain in motion. The bigger they come, the harder they tend to hit.

[444]

Yeah, and the .50 BMG tops all those numbers, at all ranges, all the time.

[Duncan Idaho]

Yeah, and the .50 BMG tops all those numbers, at all ranges, all the time.Yes. And depending on the mission the .50 BMG may be the appropriate way to go. If there are going to be hard targets, I would want the .50.

OTOH if I was going to be in a situation where all of the targets were going to be soft, and the targets would be multiple (making ammo quantity - and my capacity to carry it - an issue), and the distances that I would have to lug my rifle around were long ones, and noise and muzzle flash was a security issue, then I might want a .308, or a .338 Lapua.

I'm a carpenter for a living. I could get away with using only one hammer, but I'm not going to. It doesn't make sense for me to adapt one hammer to all situations when God gave me the capacity to understand the differences between hammers, and why some are more appropriate than others.

Those snipers are doing what I only wish I could do. I don't begrudged them one thing.

[444]

You hit the nail on the head. :D

There are times when a .50 BMG might not be the best weaopn for the reasons you mention. Then you have the .308. The reality of the situation is that you can't carry around a bunch of rifles and pick from them like a set of golf clubs; deciding the perfect rifle for each potential shot. We already have at least three precision rifles in use by the military. They have the SPR in 5.56, they have the 7.62 rifles, and they have the .50 BMG rifles. I don't see the point in adding even more rifles to the mix. If the 7.62 isn't enough, you go to a .50. If the .50 is too much, you go to the 7.62. All the time keeping in mind that you probably arn't going to have every option available all the time. I mean, if you see a target in the open at 900 yards, you arn't going to say, send up the guy with the .338 because he handles the fairly long, but not super long shots. You are also not going to turn to your gun bearer/caddy and say, I think this shot calls for the .338.

[Glock Glockler]

9x90 MEN

http://www.hkpro.com/wsg2000.htm

This long range weapon system would be the ultimate in tacticality, even Skunk would have to agree on that one.

[Zundfolge]

I think caliber choice for military snipers is one of the few things that should be decided by each individual soldier.

Some people shoot some calibers better then others, and these guys need to be able to tailor their rig and loads to their particular shooting style.

In addition, the mission should also have some role in dictating what caliber.

[Duncan Idaho]

I mean, if you see a target in the open at 900 yards, you arn't going to say, send up the guy with the .338 because he handles the fairly long, but not super long shots. You are also not going to turn to your gun bearer/caddy and say, I think this shot calls for the .338. You have obviously made your mind up based on something. All I can tell you is that "something" doesn't resemble the way snipers are deployed/operate in the slightest way.

[duckfoot]

The few Marine STA teams that I have worked with have said that while the 7.62x51 is a good platform, they would like the option of a longer shot than 800 meters (880yds). Which means that they have to creep more to get into range of their tgt using the 7.62x51 than the .338 Lapua. Also bad guys know that "most"(not all) U.S. snipers use the 7.62x51 and can figure out the service range of that weapon, then counter with the 7.62x54 or larger. The .338 Lapua would give U.S. military sniper teams a bit more reach.

As most will agree "use the best tool for the job" and the better tool now is the .338 Lapua. Till some one comes up with a particle rifle in the 20-megawatt range:D

By the way, snipers really hate lugging (patrol) the .50 SASR on foot, got enough crap already. Which is why you rarely hear "I'll take the .50 for today's 25 mile hump."


But to all of this better caliber crap, in the end the skills of the sniper will make the most difference.

[444]

Duncan, you are obiously missing my point. The fact that snipers don't operate that way IS my point. I could understand if you said, we presently have a long range, and a medium range gun; let's just use one rifle that can do both. But I don't see the point in having a half dozen different caliber rifles each to fill some paticular niche. Maybe I am missing the point here and that is exactly what this thread is proposing but the original post suggested something between the 7.62 and the .50 BMG.

[Duncan Idaho]

Duncan, you are obiously missing my point. The fact that snipers don't operate that way IS my point. I think you may have stood that on its head a little.

My point is that snipers do not operate the way you seem to think they do.

Please read duckfoot's post. Perhaps you will understand him a little better.

Let me put it another way. Beyond 800 meters, the .308 is not very effective. The .338 Lapua, is. Under 1,000 meters, the .50 BMG can sometimes be a huge liability: weight/ammo quantity & number of targets to be engaged/noise/muzzle blast/weight, did I mention weight?/etc...

[Bruce H]

Well seeing as how sniping, by it's very nature requires long hikes weight would be a factor. What I would try for is a .300 short magnum. Build a platform trying various barrel profiles. Find the one that shoots the best cold. There are no warm up shots in this business. This round would not weigh much more that a 7.62X51. The .338 is a fine round but recoil is punishing. To control is to a respectable level would require add ons that could fail or otherwise cause problems.

[duckfoot]

Sure the .338 Lapua puts out a beating, I'll admit that in full to anyone who has worn a tree suit before. On the other hand Marines fuss very little about shooting any type of weapon, it's humping that bang stick all over gods creation that you hear the @$$ about.

In the end Marine STA (also known as dirty recon) teams use what is given and make the best of it.:)

[BusMaster007]

It's been mentioned that a 6.5mm would be a good compromise between the .223 & .308.

I believe ArmaLite is developing a .300 Remington Short Action Ultra Mag upper for the AR10.

Were there such a thing as a 6.5/.300 SAUM, that might be a good thing, no? :)

(...I guess it would be a 6.5 SAUM...)

edited to add: it could also be a 6mm.

[Correia]

It is going to be a new .338 WSM style cartridge. Fired out of a semi auto rifle.


Just watch. :D