I'm 18 and Legally Own a Handgun in PA (A How-To)


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clubsoda22
August 3, 2003, 11:06 PM
I am 18 years old and live in the Philadelphia area. I have read the full text of the PA firearms law and found that nothing prevents me from owning this shiny new Taurus 9mm or whatever other handgun I wish to obtain. Here's how I went about it getting it.

First off, all that you have to know is that Federal law does not prohibit anyone over 18 from owning a firearm. Contrary to popular belief, the Brady law does not have any restrictions on age, only GCA '68 does, and that age is 18.

Under PA state law, anyone over the age of 18 may possess (own) a handgun. However, PA state law also prohibits licensed dealers from selling a handgun to anyone under 21 years of age. You may be asking, "How the hell did you get around that!?!" This was actually very simple; I asked my dad to buy the handgun for me!

"But what about laws against straw purchases!?!" Well, they don't apply. PA state law says that when you transfer private party you must have a gun dealer do the transfer UNLESS the transfer is spouse-to-spouse, parent-to-child, or grandfather-to-grandchild.

"What about the Brady law?" The Brady law specifically says that buying a firearm as a gift (obviously to someone who may legally possess it) is not prohibited! It says it right there on that yellow form you fill out when you buy a handgun! Here's a link to one: http://www.titleii.com/pdf/4473.pdf (The yellow form). Look at "important notices" #1.

"But under PA state law you can't buy pistol ammo unless your 21! How about that mister smarty pants!" DUH! I have my dad or a friend by the ammo for me, silly! Getting ammo when you're under 21 is more legal than getting cigarettes when you're under 18! If you're a LICENCED dealer you can't sell pistol ammo to someone under 21, but someone under 21 can own it if it is given to them by an individual other than a licensed dealer, like Dad or your older buddy Tom! With cigarettes, Dad and Tom are committing a crime by supplying a minor (under 18) with cigarettes; by giving a non-minor (anyone over 18) ammo, they have done nothing wrong!

"Okay smartass, I'm a (cop/FFL dealer/Joe blow) and my (fellow officer/other dealer/buddy who's a lawyer of some sort) told me that you're wrong!" Well, I'm not gonna argue that, you acquaintance obviously hasn't done his research! Here are the complete PA firearm laws: http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA6110.1.html (federal laws can easily be found on google). Take it from someone who has read it, it's a good days read. Have fun! I dare you to find something that says I'm wrong.

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rebbryan
August 3, 2003, 11:18 PM
can you CW when you're 18?

GunNut
August 3, 2003, 11:41 PM
rebbryan,

I'm pretty sure that a big NO.




clubsoda22,

Congrats, and do us all proud. Keep it legal and safe.

Steve

clubsoda22
August 3, 2003, 11:44 PM
No, PA law specifically says that you are not eligable for a CWP until you are 21 years of age

However, just having the handgun is fine! Can't wait to argue this on at my local range who insists that state law says i have to be 21 to shoot handguns without my dad.

read this:

§ 6110.1. Possession of firearm by minor.

(a) Firearm.--Except as provided in subsection (b), a person under 18 years of age shall not possess or transport a firearm anywhere in this Commonwealth.

(b) Exception.--Subsection (a) shall not apply to a person under 18 years of age:

1. who is under the supervision of a parent, grandparent, legal guardian or an adult acting with the expressed consent of the minor's custodial parent or legal guardian and the minor is engaged in lawful activity, including safety training, lawful target shooting, engaging in an organized competition involving the use of a firearm or the firearm is unloaded and the minor is transporting it for a lawful purpose; or
2. who is lawfully hunting or trapping in accordance with 34 Pa.C.S. (relating to game).

[added by me: An adult is someone over 18 years of age. Note that according to the above, i can take my 13 year old cousin shooting if i have expressed consent of his parents! He'll be thrilled!]

(c) Responsibility of adult.--Any person who knowingly and intentionally delivers or provides to the minor a firearm in violation of subsection (a) commits a felony of the third degree.

(d) Forfeiture.--Any firearm in the possession of a person under 18 years of age in violation of this section shall be promptly seized by the arresting law enforcement officer and upon conviction or adjudication of delinquency shall be forfeited or, if stolen, returned to the lawful owner.

HOW OBVIOUS IS THIS! PEOPLE JUST DON'T TAKE THE TIME TO READ!

clubsoda22
August 3, 2003, 11:49 PM
Thanks gun nut!

I keep it legal every day and now i have proof!

I think this is an example of how a dedicated individual with internet access and basic reading skills can find just about anything. For heaven's sake! I'm a nursing student! Not a law student!

Ian
August 4, 2003, 12:04 AM
I took the exact same route to obtain my pistols (I just turned 20). I don't bother with the ammo restrictions, though - nobody bothers to check ages except Walmart, so I just buy my own.

GunNut & Rebbryan - Some states do give carry permits to folks younger than 21. Indiana, for example. I have a handful of 18-, 19-, and 20-year-old friends there who have permits. They still can't legally buy pistol ammo, though. Talk about inane laws. :banghead:

clubsoda22
August 4, 2003, 12:30 AM
i think new hampshire and montana are the same way. My range does check for ammo, so i have my dad or a friend buy me a 500 round case of 9's and i'm set for a while.

Randy63
August 4, 2003, 01:01 AM
Good for you clubsoda22. Enjoy your new 9mm and remember be sure to not vote for Ed Rendell should he run again!

K22

cordex
August 4, 2003, 01:05 AM
Good on you.

Now look into reloading so you don't have to have someone else buy your ammo for you.

clubsoda22
August 4, 2003, 01:11 AM
indoor range. they prohibit reloaded ammo at all three around here. doesn't matter. they stock seller&bellot @ $6.25 a box so it's cheap anyway. Other reasons for not reloading are because i live in a college dorm, explaining the handgun would be hard enough if i was caught (it is well hidden). Hiding a reloading press and kegs of gun powder is a bit harder to do.

k22: Unfortunately my B-day just missed the deadline. Anyway, i won't vote for a republican either. Third party all the way unless i find a candidate i really like (i guess you could say, that at least it's not a vote for the dem's). Frankly, If i don't like any of the candidates i'd write in mickey mouse simply so no one can give me the "If you don't vote you can't complain" bullsh*t.

Stinkyshoe
August 4, 2003, 01:11 AM
Hey good job bud! I am in the same boat as you. How would I go about finding out about laws in Nebraska?
Thanks
Ss

clubsoda22
August 4, 2003, 01:15 AM
stinky, if you have any idea how much time it took me to find and anaylize the PA codes, you'll understand why i'm leaving you with this:

Attorney General:
Attorney General
2115 State Capitol
Lincoln, Nebraska 68507
Phone: 402-471-2682
Fax: 402-471-3297
Web Homepage
Email: http://www.ago.state.ne.us/contact/contact_us.html
Ask!

coldshot03/04
August 4, 2003, 03:42 AM
I have a nephew that just turned 21. The gunshops in my area wouldnt let him touch or handle a handgun. Long guns yes, handgun no. Now he gets his ID checked alot.:confused: Strange laws we have.:rolleyes:

clubsoda22
August 4, 2003, 04:28 AM
I do not know what alabama state law says, but, Federal law states that licenced gun dealers can not "sell or deliver" handguns to persons under 21 years of age.

Maybe they take the meaning of the word "deliver" differently than I do, but i take that to mean a licenced gun dealer can't just be a conduit for a handgun not purchaced from but transferred through him to someone under the age of 21.

I personally had the same problems at a lot of gunshops 'till i started carrying printouts of the law in my car. Many of the gun dealers were quite supprised when they read the law for themselves.

Last shop i was in I didn't give a hint to my age and because i easily looks 21. I was taking a look at a new bersa. I'm probably gonna buy it just for the "look". Boy is he gonna be supprised when i show up with my dad and a bunch of papers so i can use the range.

Guerillah
August 4, 2003, 07:06 AM
It seems to me that the law in AZ is basically the same, just worded differently. You seem to have a good amount of knowledge on the under 21 subject so check it of if you could. http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws.asp?FormMode=Detail&R=AZ I am 20 and can get the parents to buy a handgun for me as long as I give them the money of course and have plenty of 21+ year old friends who can buy me ammo.

clubsoda22
August 4, 2003, 11:01 AM
First off, let it be known that I am not a lawyer and not even a law student. I'm an incoming freshman in a 4 year nursing program. This makes me 100% unqualified to give anyone legal advice. However, if you know a lawyer, you may take what i post and show it to him and let him be the judge. I am absolutely not responsible for any trouble you get into using the information I provide.

That out of the way, looking at the NRA ILA synopsis it does appear that an 18 year old may possess a firearm. Personally, I don't like using someone elses abbreviated version of the law and if you're gonna convince someone, you better have the full text handy. I personally read every page of the PA firearms statutes (which are thankfully kept online). You can probably obtain AZ statutes online or from your state AG's office. Here's why I think It's okay in Arizona.

1A firearm is defined as any loaded or unloaded pistol, revolver, shotgun or other weapon which will or is designed to or may readily convert to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.

Okay, so arizona, like PA groups all handguns rifles and shotguns togeather, this is a good sign. If the only laws that differentiate between handgun and longarm are federal, then you're in the same boat as me, where you may not purchace, but may still possess (own) a handgun.

Prohibited possessors.....

An unemancipated person under 18 not accompanied by a parent, grandparent, guardian, or a certified hunter safety instructor or certified firearms safety instructor acting with consent of the minor's parent, grandparent or guardian shall not carry or possess on his person, within his immediate control, or in or on a means of transportation a firearm in any place open to the public or on any street, highway, or on private property, except private property owned or leased by the minor or the minor's parent, grandparent, or guardian. This prohibition does not apply to a person between 14 and 17 engaged in lawful hunting, marksmanship practice, transportation of an unloaded firearm for the purpose of hunting or, between 5:00 AM and 10:00 PM, transportation of an unloaded firearm for the purpose of marksmanship at a range or other area where the discharge of firearms is not prohibited. This law applies in counties with a population exceeding 500,000. However, counties with a lesser population, or cities and towns within such counties, may adopt an ordinance identical to this law.

Okay, now here's where it gets tricky. Looking at the first line you may be thinking "wow! If you're an emancipated 16 year old you can own a handgun!" No, you can't, because federal law is supreme and federal law says 18. Now it doesn't define minor, however, minor is almost 100% defined as someone under the age of 18. Ignore the part about carrying as it doesn't pertain to you. Transport all firearms in a case, sepereate from the ammo in your trunk and you'll be fine. According to the NRA site it may also be legal. Arizona has state preemption so local gov's can't make their own laws.

The synopsis you gave me does not have anything about private party transactions. so I took the initiative and fouund your state firearms laws. http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/pdf/arizona.pdf Still nothing about private party transactions in the section i found

Okay, I did find that sale or gift to a minor is a crime. Sale or gift to you, not being a minor, is fine as long as the seller or gift giver is not a licenced dealer (prohibited by federal law).

But wait, here's more http://www.firearmslawcenter.org/content/arizona.asp

Now, in order for this to be squeeky clean state law must say that you don't need to transfer through a dealer for a private sale. This is why my 21 year old friend can not buy me a handgun. Because to transfer from him to me i would need a background check (which i would pass) but the dealer could then not allow me to take possession of the handgun because he is prohibited by federal laew from doing so (although i'm not sure what prevents my 21 year old friend from then just handing me the gun right then and there a la gun show loophole). To be on the safe side, i would always have the transfer be from a parent.

Basically, us 18-21 year olds are using the much publicized "gun show loophole" to our advantage. I think you're fine in arizona if you follow these steps. First off, it's a straw purchace if you give your dad money and ask him to buy you a handgun. It is not illegal for your dad to buy a handgun with his own money then sell or give it to you.

Here's how I would work it:
-Go to gun shop
-"Hey dad, that (insert gun here) looks nice. and only $400!"
-Dad pays with credit card or withdraws cash from ATM keeping $400 receipt (squeeky clean).
-"Here you go son, happy fouth of august!"
-"Wow, thanks dad!"
-Withdraw wallet "and thanks for filling up my gas tank yesterday night. Here's $400, keep the change" (okay, so you don't have to do that infront of the FFL dealer. just give your dad the money when you get out to the car. You have broken no law to the best of my knoledge)

clubsoda22
August 4, 2003, 11:02 AM
IF ANYONE ELSE WOULD LIKE ME TO DISECT YOUR LAWS, MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT IS "clubsoda22@aol.com"

THANK YOU :D

clubsoda22
August 4, 2003, 11:27 AM
okay, after looking at a bunch of states, i have concluded that in any state where you are allowed to possess a handgun at 18 it is easy enough to obtain one should your parents be the cooperative type.

This is the best use of the private sale "loophole" there is as it is completely legal. If you can pass a NICS check, anyone can sell you a gun with the exception of federally licenced dealers. No law is broken, no harm is done. If you find a summary of your state laws, and it appears that an 18 year old may posses a handgun, here's a list of things you can do to ensure everything goes smoothly.

1) Contact your state attorney generals office and ask a few questions "i read that an 18 year old may own a handgun, may i also discharge it for sporting purposes? May it be transferred to me through a private party such as my father granted that i may legally possess firearms under federal and state law? Make sure they send you a letter, not just oral confirmation

2) Always recieve the gun as a gift from a parent. Most states don't want to make laws that prohibit you from getting a christmas present.

3) Always carry the state law and/or the letter from the A/G office. You can show this to stubborn rangemasters who say "you must be 21 to shoot a handgun on my range because state law" You can also use this with cops in the unlikely event that you are pulled over and searched on the way to the range. If the cop that pulls you over doesn't know your fourth amendment rights, he certainly doesn't know the complete text of your state firearms laws. Don't be afraid to ask him to call his supervisor, they tend to become supervisors because they're smarter than the average bear (sometimes).

4) if you live in NYC, NJ, DC, MA, IL, CA or some similar spot, don't bother. It's not worth the trouble. Move to another state, then try.

5) never assume, always know the law and be confident in your interpritation (letter from AG does a lot to instil confidence). Don't assume that because you may possess you may carry. When transporting your gun, transport it like you would unstable explosives, very carefully. Ammo stored seperately, locked up.

Guerillah
August 4, 2003, 11:43 AM
Thanks for going over it in great detail! Good info.

Thrash1982
August 4, 2003, 12:49 PM
Congrats on the new gun clubsoda22. My dad recently bought me my first gun (with my money of course) a Beretta 96. Living in Indiana though I can carry at 18 (I'm 20 now). Unfortunately I can't carry on campus here so don't really want to spend the money on a good holster. The whole 'have to be 21 to buy ammo' thing is downright annoying. I reload though but am having a hard time finding a good reload for my .40's.

greyhound
August 4, 2003, 01:48 PM
.Other reasons for not reloading are because i live in a college dorm, explaining the handgun would be hard enough if i was caught (it is well hidden).


You seem to be aware that it is probably illegal to possess a firearm on campus? At least every uni I have ever heard of makes it a big no-no.

And if it is illegal, do you realize that if caught with it or heaven forbid have to use it, you put in serious jeopardy your ablilty to legally purchase a firearm at age 21 (if possession is a felony)? Not to mention you would probably be kicked out of school, and with the circumstances might have trouble finding a new one that would let you in.

Hey, to each their own, if you are willing to accept the risk, good on ya.
I personally don't believe that any law that limits the right of possession for any adult legally able to own a gun is Constitutional. But, this is what "For the Children" has gotten us.

Just wanted to bring that point up

clubsoda22
August 4, 2003, 03:13 PM
Thrash, i'm going on my third gun. We've had the Taurus since i was 16 and now it's legally mine. I bought a Winchester Defender a couple months ago and i'll be getting the Bersa sometime next week. I think it's good to get an early start on my collection.

"Are you saying that you are allowed to keep that gun in a college dorm? Every uni I have ever heard of that is a big no-no."

Greyhound, you think i'd spend all this time reading PA firearms statutes and not know the law as it pertains to keeping a handgun at college?

You may not have a gun at a primary or secondary school, but there is no law restricting having guns on a college campus. I will keep one of my handguns with me at college. The only problem is college policy. The college policy is no guns, however that is policy, not law. They can not prosicute me unless i do something illegal.

As far as their policy goes, f*ck 'em! I'm not paying $30K a year for them to take away my right to defend myself, especially in a college that had a murder (shot in the back for $6). multiple rapes, 7 aggrivated assaults and 4 robberies (read: muggings) last year with a student body of only 2500. It's a good school but it's in a very violent neighborhood. I'd know because i'm also an EMT in the surrounding community. Half the guys i work with wear body armor.

A lot of sh*t doesn't go on the "crime statistics" page, such as the murder, because it happened 20 ft off campus at the most popular college bar in the area so it "technically" doesn't have to go on the crime statistics. Universities love being "technical" with their crime statistics, I assure you the two bullets in his back were "technically" real. Guy was only 21 and is "technically" deceased. Try that with me when i'm 21 and i assure you the gun in my holster and the CWP in my wallet will be real. In the mean time i'll be carrying my tactical folder (what good it will do) and leaving the gun well hidden in the dorm room. why? Because I obey the law, period. On the other hand, to hell with those policies. Theyare at odds with the law.

"And if it is illegal, do you realize that if caught with it or heaven forbid have to use it, you put in serious jeopardy your ablilty to legally purchase a firearm at age 21?"

Well, it's not illegal, and i'm not gonna be caught with it because they're never gonna find it. It's not like it's sitting in the top draw of my desk. It's locked away and well hidden.

If i ever have to use the gun it will be for a damn good reason. The reason would have to be great enough to outweigh the inherent problems with shooting someone.

Have you read the thread? I legally buy firearms now. I legally buy shotguns and rifles through an FFL and i legally buy handguns from my dad. I don't understand how breaking a policy (NOT A LAW), would effect my gun rights. PA is not the fascist paradise that MD is.


§ 912. Possession of weapon on school property.

(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

See anything about college's? I certainly don't

greyhound
August 4, 2003, 03:33 PM
? I legally buy firearms now. I legally buy shotguns and rifles through an FFL and i legally buy handguns from my dad. I don't understand how breaking a policy (NOT A LAW), would effect my gun rights.

Hey, like I said, good on ya. You have certainly done your research and it sure seems legal to me. I think you'd be in for a world of hassle if caught on campus, but it sure looks like they couldn't arrest you. We all must decide which policies we obey and those we don't.

What I meant about purchasing handguns at 21 I stand by. You have not legally "purchased" a handgun, you have been gifted one by your father.
Like you said, all perfectly legal. Also like you said, if you give your dad $400 its for filling up the car. :)

Unlike a lot of 18-21 year olds who take their lack of rights for granted, you've done your homework and done something about it. That, in this day and age, is certainlt commendable!

greyhound
August 4, 2003, 03:43 PM
QUOTE]Under PA state law, anyone over the age of 18 may possess (own) a handgun. However, PA state law also prohibits licensed dealers from selling a handgun to anyone under 21 years of age. You may be asking, "How the hell did you get around that!?!" This was actually very simple; I asked my dad to buy the handgun for me![/QUOTE]



Hey, now that I see that its not illegal on campus, here's another question:
How do you tranport the pistol to the range and all? Sure it's a legal gift from your father, but how would you prove that if a cop pulled you over (or in any situation where you are found by some authorities in possession of the pistol)? Do you have to carry a notarized letter or something? Or do you not have to prove anything at all since the law says 18 year olds can possess? Just curious. And yes, some of this comes from living in Maryland, where authorites will do anything to either slap a charge on you or confiscate guns.


Once again, I am not criticizing or implying you have done something wrong or illegal. Its kinda like open carry, totally legal but guaranteed to freak out the sheeple. So congrats to you for being willing to put forth the effort. Stay safe!

Spackler
August 4, 2003, 04:57 PM
You must already be aware of this (after all, you did all of that research and all) but if caught with a firearm on campus, the university will likely toss you out. Depending on the circumstances, you might be locked up by the campus police initially. Don't expect them to know the finer points of the law.

clubsoda22
August 4, 2003, 07:02 PM
yeah spackler, it's a risk worth not dying for. They're not gonna know unless i have to use it, and if i have to use it, better off in trouble than dead.

Greyhound, all i have to do is show them i'm 18, then it is legal to possess. Once the transfer is complete, legalities surrounding the transfer are no longer an issue. A cop can't pull you over then arrest you for legally transporting a handgun on the suspicion that the gun was illegally transferred. There is simply no probable cause. If he ask's how i got it, i'd say it was a present from my dad, and there is still no probably cause because that's a valid and legal excuse.

§ 6110.1. Possession of firearm by minor.

(a) Firearm.--Except as provided in subsection (b), a person under 18 years of age shall not possess or transport a firearm anywhere in this Commonwealth.

(b) Exception.--Subsection (a) shall not apply to a person under 18 years of age:

1. who is under the supervision of a parent, grandparent, legal guardian or an adult acting with the expressed consent of the minor's custodial parent or legal guardian and the minor is engaged in lawful activity, including safety training, lawful target shooting, engaging in an organized competition involving the use of a firearm or the firearm is unloaded and the minor is transporting it for a lawful purpose; or
2. who is lawfully hunting or trapping in accordance with 34 Pa.C.S. (relating to game).

§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

4. Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.


Sad thing is, i've e-mailed a lot of ranges and the owners are fairly ignorant of the laws, as are the state police officers that inform them.

Jason Demond
August 4, 2003, 07:32 PM
I owned five handguns, before I turned 21. My Dad did the same for me, as yours did for you. I MI though, you need to go down to your local Sheriff's department and have a background check done. If you pass, they will give you a purchase permit. After you get the gun, you need to go back to the Sheriff's department for a safety inspection (Read Registration)! You now have a legal pistol in your name. A CCW make the experience slightly better.

greyhound
August 4, 2003, 07:40 PM
There is simply no probable cause

See, now here is where I'd be worried for you. Yes, I know compared to Maryland, Pennsylvania is much more firearm friendly. But I read a lot of these boards, and it seems that the one exception is the Philadelphia area. I can state for a fact that the Philly mayor tried to exempt the city from the statewide CCW law, and that a lot of the local counties are very reluctant to issue CCW licenses, though they have to under state shall-issue laws.

You have the law on your side, but to law enforcement that is very anti 2A I don't think a piece of paper with the law on it is going to stop a LEO from confiscating your pistol until "it can all be straightened out". And once they have it, who knows how you can get it back. As Spackler said, don't count on them to know the law. Lord knows I could be (and probably am:rolleyes: ) wrong but if a LEO finds an 18 year old in possession of a pistol (at least in a gun-unfriendly part of the state) there's gonna be trouble.

You sure do seem to be level-headed and mature though, and that might go a long way in such a situation (i.e. if you don't have the gangsta rap blaring and are not confrontational with the LEO) hopefully you'll be OK.
Also, I do not know if you are just from the Philly area and attend college in a 2A friendly area like Centre County. Thanks for Sheriff Nau!

Anyway, that's the last I'll post on this, and good luck to ya in your studies!
From what I see in the employment section, this country need all the nurses it can get!

MoNsTeR
August 4, 2003, 08:41 PM
This is the case in Colorado as well. It's great if you have a .22, since that's legal to buy from licensed vendors. I took up reloading to supply myself with centerfire ammo.

clubsoda22
August 5, 2003, 12:02 AM
greyhound, for one, i carry the laws in my range bag in the event of such a case. fortunately, i don't need to go into philly to get to my range.

Otherwise, being a firefighter/EMT generally gives you a "same team" advantage. Frankly, if i'm pulled over in philly it's gonna be some cop wondering why i have a blue dashlight in my car if he doesn't see the EMT stickers.

Jason, thanks to this section of PA law, nothing further is required than dad just handing it to you:

(c) Duty of other persons.--Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.

Jason, just one question, did you ever have problems with law-ignorant gun shop or shooting range owners?

Steve in PA
August 5, 2003, 08:10 AM
As long as you are going directly to or from the range. Get stopped going to the Quickie Mart for a slurpee...........

clubsoda22
August 5, 2003, 04:15 PM
No where in the law does it say you must go directly, nor is it implied anywhere in the law. I take it to mean that if you leave your house in the morning and will be going to the range at some point in the day without stopping back home, you are transporting to the range.

Anyway, the way it's written is for any legal gun owner, even those over 21.

Steve in PA
August 5, 2003, 04:30 PM
You may have found a loop hole to have a handgun......sounds real close to a straw purchase to me. But you do not have a permit to possess the weapon on your or in your vehicle unless you are going to or from a range, gunsmith, etc.

Your playing with fire and sooner or later your going to get burned.

PACC 6106 Firearms Not To Be Carried Without a License
(a) Offense defined-

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree

(2) A person whois otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place or business without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committer any other crime
commits a misdemeanor of the first degree

(b) Exceptions -

(4) Any person engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol or revolver if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a seperate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.

It implied directly in the above statements. No, it does not mean you can have them in your vehicle and go about your business.

clubsoda22
August 5, 2003, 05:51 PM
It's not a loophole, it's the law. By your tone and language (loophole) I take it that you do not agree with me and do not think that i should not own a handgun at my age. You are entitled to your opinion.

For one thing, i don't keep my gun in my car.

The only license you can get to keep it in your car at all times is a license to carry. Other than that, you must be going to use that firearm for a sporting purpose. It is not reasonable to assume that you can't stop by your buddies house to pick him up then proceed or stop by a convenience store for a cola after you're done shooting. That's just a ludicrous assumption on your behalf.

here's another encemption of that same law:

* Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.

So, yeah, i can transport it from my home to college as well.

Secondly, it's not a straw purchace. A straw purchace is giving it to someone who may not legally own it. Because i may legally own it, and it is being given to me as a gift, it is NOT a straw purchace. A straw purchace would also involve transfering it illegally, such as transferring it without the recipient of the gun getting a background check, however, no paperwork or background check is neccecary for a father-son transfer.

gbelleh
August 5, 2003, 06:14 PM
I'm not arguing with you, but...

What about the fact that you pay for the gun. Therefore, it's not really a gift...

Could this potentially cause a problem? Straw purchase??

Someone else mentioned that the $400 is for filling up your dad's gas tank. Does it matter where the money comes from? Can it be proven??

It sounds like you've done a great job researching this. If only more 18 year-olds were like you!!

Jason Demond
August 5, 2003, 06:17 PM
Jason, just one question, did you ever have problems with law-ignorant gun shop or shooting range owners?
Nope!
I went with my Dad to pick out the guns, and waited while he filled out the yellow forms. The gun shop guys knew what was up. I joined my Dad's gunclub, and was welcomed in as one of the guys.

Steve in PA
August 5, 2003, 06:22 PM
I could care less whether you have a gun or not. I'm just pointing out the legal aspects of being caught with the gun in your possession.

Its not a ludicrious assumption its the law. I'm a LEO in PA.......and if your stopped with the gun in your car and don't have a permit......and are not moving, going to or from a range........to or from a gunsmith.......your going to be cited for carrying without a permit.......period.

Big deal...your daddy bought you a gun. Good for you. So carry it around with you while you putter around town......and sooner or later your going to get stopped. The law is written to say that you can't just be carrying around guns with you because you want to. As I said......your playing with fire.

clubsoda22
August 5, 2003, 06:28 PM
gbelleh, to answer your question, it wouldn't even matter if i paid my dad for the guns as long as i did it after the purchace. For added protection my dad buys the handgun with his credit card, now it may not be disputed that he purchaced the firearm with his own money. afterwards, i may buy the gun from him without a background check or paperwork as it is between father and son. Note that the brady check only applies to dealers selling guns under federal law. Under PA law you must have a background check and do the paperwork unless it's spouse-spouse parent-child or grandparent-grandchild.

Now that i think of it, with those 3 exceptions you can get a gun from almost anyone in your family, as long as it goes through the right peoples hands :D

Anyway, I prefer to keep it as simple as possible. It was a gift.

Spackler
August 5, 2003, 08:18 PM
I agree with Steve. 6106(b)(4) and (8) are specific, especially (8). If you're transporting it, and you're not going to or coming from the range, or from the store to home, or gunsmith to home or home to gunsmith, etc., etc., you are carrying without a permit. Even if it's unloaded, as the law requires it to be. It would probably come down to officer discretion.

I'd agree that carrying from home to a college dorm or apartment would probably be ok, not withstanding the rules of the college pertaining to firearms possesion.

clubsoda22
August 5, 2003, 08:45 PM
you guys have to realize that most of the people transporting firearms are not licenced to carry and it is an foolish to believe that you could be convicted of illegal transport of arms because you stopped for lunch on the way to the range or something of the sort. Common sence prevails.

Anyway, the point is moot as it has nothing to do with the possession of handguns for 18-20 year olds as laws regarding the transport of arms apply to everyone regardless of their age.

Spackler
August 5, 2003, 08:50 PM
I remember now what it was like to be 18.

clubsoda22
August 5, 2003, 08:57 PM
I'm a LEO in PA.......and if your stopped with the gun in your car and don't have a permit......and are not moving, going to or from a range........to or from a gunsmith.......your going to be cited for carrying without a permit.......period.

Big deal...your daddy bought you a gun. Good for you. So carry it around with you while you putter around town......and sooner or later your going to get stopped. The law is written to say that you can't just be carrying around guns with you because you want to. As I said......your playing with fire.

I have been saying exactly what you are saying. Yes, it is illegal to carry a gun around in your car just because. Where did I say it was not? All I said is that it was foolish to assume because you make an innocent detour on your way to the range, such as going to a convenience store for a drink, that I am somehow violating the law.

Furthermore, where did i say that i ever did or currently do carry my gun in my car while i just "putter around town"? How am i playing with fire if the fire has never been lit?

Aside from that, I do not like your tone. You are speaking down to me and I find it degrading.

clubsoda22
August 5, 2003, 09:00 PM
I remember now what it was like to be 18.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting with that comment....

Steve in PA
August 5, 2003, 09:48 PM
I wasn't talking down to you......I was pointing out the legal aspects of being in possession of a firearm.

You made the comments of how you carry a copy of the laws around with you. Why??? If your not puttering around town with your firearms??

And no......you can not stop for lunch with a firearm in your vehicle.....unless you are properly licensed. Thats it......period. Do people do it all the time? Yes. Are the chances good that you'll get caught? No. Don't like it......too bad. Feel like your being talked down to??? Too bad........I'm trying to enlighten you to the ways of the world as they pertain to being responsible with a weapon, as in following the rules. Don't want to follow them or think you can talk your way out of them?? Fine, go ahead.

Think just because you have a blue light and think your "in" with some team is going to cut you some slack?? Your pushing your luck.

Your being ignorant of the laws.....and its people like you that make it hard for everyone else who wants to CCW. You'll get stopped and it'll be "another unlicensed gunowner carrying a firearm" that the anti-gun people will use to their benefit.

18yoa......and you think you have the world by the b@lls??? Yeah, right..try again.

clubsoda22
August 5, 2003, 10:26 PM
Feel like your being talked down to??? Too bad.

Fine I can play that game

You made the comments of how you carry a copy of the laws around with you. Why??? If your not puttering around town with your firearms??

Here is my quote:

"I carry the laws in my range bag in the event of such a case."

My range bag, that would be where I keep my guns. I don't expect cops to know the laws they enforce (go figure). Never did I say that was in my car. I guess reading comprehension isn't a prerequisite for the academy. I bet you thought you were being clever too. What a shame.

And no......you can not stop for lunch with a firearm in your vehicle.....unless you are properly licensed.

Try to get a conviction there. The ninth circuit, the most liberal court in the country, ruled that a drug dealer who had a gun in the bed of his pickup during a drug deal could not be charged with carrying it. Suck on that for a while. Does it taste bitter? Think a PA judge would rule that a gun locked in my trunk while I stopped off for lunch on my way to the range was "illegally carrying a firearm"? Get a clue.

I'm trying to enlighten you to the ways of the world as they pertain to being responsible with a weapon

Holy crap! He stopped to get a can of Pepsi with a gun in his trunk on the way to the shooting range! How grossly irresponsible! Gimme a break.

Tomorrow I will contact the attorney generals office and see what they have to say. If I am right, I reserve the right to gloat. If you are right, have fun with it, in the mean time, I'll make sure I don't take any breaks to piss on the way home from the range.

Your being ignorant of the laws.....and its people like you that make it hard for everyone else who wants to CCW. You'll get stopped and it'll be "another unlicensed gun owner carrying a firearm" that the anti-gun people will use to their benefit.

I am being Ignorant of the laws? Seems the only person who is even willing to look up the laws is me. I make it hard for people to get a CCW? This is because I'll be caught carrying a firearm in my trunk while grabbing a bag of chips at the 7-11 on my way to the range and the anti's will use it to their advantage? Someone needs a reality check.

Think just because you have a blue light and think your "in" with some team is going to cut you some slack??

Yeah, most cops don't harass fellow emergency services personnel like they do blacks and hispanics (i'm sorry if that wasn't PC). I doubt if i'm stopped for a speeding violation (by the way my driving record is perfect) the cop's gonna ask me where i stashed the guns.

18yoa......and you think you have the world by the b@lls??? Yeah, right..try again.

However old you are and feeling threatened by an 18 year old with a far superior intellect. What would Freud say?

lycanthrope
August 5, 2003, 11:18 PM
Clubsoda,

I owned my first revolver at age 18 in PA the same way you did. I also hunted with it that year in doe season. An 18 year old can carry a handgun to hunt with and shoot at the range (lots of junior IPSC shooters out there do it all the time). If I recall, I think I needed another permit to hunt with it........that was back in '88 though.

Also......can you look into the FEDERAL statutes on having a gun on a college campus? I thought that was a federal mandate and a felony. Kind of like carrying one into a Post Office.

slh02
August 6, 2003, 01:22 AM
I sorta wish I could find a way to do this in MD. I am 18 and have 3 long-guns and a pistol (about to have another) in the gun safe. I purchased and inherited the long guns but the pistol is under my step-dad's name. From every source that I have talked to (and believe me it has been a few), I can not legally possess the handguns until I am 21. Kind of a shame considering that I dont get to use the handguns as much as I would like to because I need someone over 21 to "supervise" me. Kind of funny that I am usually teaching the supervisors how a gun works and how to shoot. Guess thats the way it goes here though... :banghead:

Steve in PA
August 6, 2003, 09:11 AM
The point is the law says if you don't have a permit/license.......you can be charged with carrying a firearm without a license......unless you fall into one of the exceptions. Thats it.

You came here bragging about being 18 and "owning" a handgun in PA. I tried to enlighten you to the laws......that you think you know so well. You took exception to the fact that I stated you could be cited for violating the law......and didn't like it. Awww......I sorry. Have some milk and cookies.....it'll make you feel better.

Have a link to the drug dealer/gun story??? Lots of people being busted for having firearms in their vehicles here. I doubt your story is true since one of my officers just came back from Philly........and was talking with some cops.......they don't even like off duty LEOS having a weapon!!!! So, pardon me if I think your story is BS :barf:

Superior intellect??? Yeah, ok........stand in front of the mirror and repeat that to yourself over and over. :banghead:

SelfProclaimedExpert
August 6, 2003, 12:32 PM
I didn't realize anyone thought this was illegal. My brother and I shared a handgun when I was 20 and he 13. We usually shot it on a state owned gun range. I had a guardianship letter should anyone question us, but that was because of the 13 year old, not me.

Reading the laws on line isn't tough, lots of people do it. Lots also do it wrong when the laws are convoluted, like the two assault weapons laws, but this one is rather straight forward.

RepublicanMan
August 6, 2003, 06:23 PM
It's not worth arguing over. FWIW I'm pretty sure you're correct but in the end it's him (and possibly his father depending on just how wrong he is) that will have to suffer the consequences. If he's right, well hopefully Nursing School will increase his maturity level as well as his intellectual level and you won't have to listen to 1000 "I told you so's".
At any rate, unless I miss my guess, his father is Soda Pop, seems to be a pretty stand up guy and would likely not go out of his way to break a law.

From speaking with various members of the Bucks County Sherrifs dept as well as members of 2 different township PDs I can tell you that it is in fact a FEDERAL OFFENSE as defined by the US Govt to carry a weapon on a college campus.
Take it for what it's worth as I'm not inclined to research it to verify it.

Sean Smith
August 6, 2003, 08:16 PM
clubsoda22:
For one thing, i don't keep my gun in my car.

Which is followed by...

Steve in PA:
Big deal...your daddy bought you a gun. Good for you. So carry it around with you while you putter around town......and sooner or later your going to get stopped. The law is written to say that you can't just be carrying around guns with you because you want to. As I said......your playing with fire.

One doesn't seem to logically follow the other...? :confused:

SelfProclaimedExpert
August 6, 2003, 10:06 PM
From Penn law: Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back,

Don't you guys think there's alot of room contained in the portion "or in moving from one place of abode or business to another" ? This phrase seems to indicate that moving the weapon between ANY place of business and ANY abode (since the previous "his" has been omitted) is acceptable. That certainly may not have been the intent, but it will make presecution for such a minor offense impossible.

It's funny. Virginia's version of such laws reads very similarly, but all that stuff (to and from rules) is a necessity only if the gun ISN'T locked up in the car.

You could also live in your car, and declare it your "abode".;)

Coronach
August 8, 2003, 10:23 AM
Gentlemen-

Lets keep it civil, eh? The thread took a major veer off the High Road a few posts back, but seems to be back on course now. As enlightening as this is, I do not wish to lock it down for personal insults and taunting.

Mike

JackM
August 8, 2003, 03:37 PM
It's perfectly legal to own a restricted handgun in Canada at the age of 18. It will take a month or two to get your paperwork together after your birthday.

Bye
Jack

ajacobs
August 8, 2003, 07:27 PM
I likewise didn't realize anyone thought it was illegal to possess a handgun at 18. I didn't even realize some states had the additional 21 restriction (state law not federal law).

I too remember what it was like to be 18.

I can't of course comment on the PA carry in the car issue as I am unaware of that states law, what I can say is that a thinking that since the law doesn't say it in the exeption that you can't stop for a soda, so it must be legal is the wrong way to interpret any law.

I had a concealed carry liscence in NY at 18.

The main thing I wanted to correct is there is no federal restriction for guns on college grounds public or private. IN fact late last year there was a stick about that in UTAH.

clubsoda22
August 8, 2003, 08:50 PM
* Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.


Someone forgot to note the "places of assembly" clause in section four. Oh well, looks like I can go stop for lunch.

"We assembled at (Insert location here) then proceeded to the shooting range."

If you doubted i'd find the "loophole," you guessed wrong.

As for the guns on campus, federal law only applies to primary and secondary schools. No law for guns on campus. In fact, several colleges do allow guns. I talked to the assistant dean of activities at my school. He said i can keep guns on campus in an ROTC locker (even though i'm not in ROTC) and may access them anytime for sporting purposes. In fact, there is an old shooting range underneath the gymnasium at my school. I decided start a club to get the range up to spec so it can be reopened. The dean thought it was a great idea, said he would sponsor it and looks forward to shooting there in the future (he's been trying to get the pistol and rifle team back for a while.

Do i kick @$$ or what? (You don't have to answer that steve)

Steve, what i said about philly was an example, not a story to be taken as fact. In fact, I fail to see how you could have interprited it that way. I've never been pulled over in philly...nor have i been pulled over anywhere, as i drive a fast car and run from cops who can never catch me :rolleyes: (NOTE, THIS IS BLATANT SARCASM). Just kidding, in fact i'm an excelent driver and simply never get pulled over because i follow the law (big supprise there).

everything i do is legal and it is my business to make sure of it.

Spackler
August 8, 2003, 09:21 PM
Well, good luck to you. You might need it at some point in the future. You come across as a bit smug. You're bound to get your eyes opened a bit when you hit the real world.

clubsoda22
August 8, 2003, 11:57 PM
the words of a man who can't admit he's wrong. Play the age card, because that's about as mature as "My dad can beat up your dad."

Name one thing i mentioned (aside from in jest) that is illegal. You don't spend time looking at the laws, contacting the attorney general and so forth. Quite frankly, i don't understand why you think you can get off talking down to me either.

Truth is, if anything gives me a good excuse for being smug, knowing my stuff is it.

As for you, learn your stuff, then we can talk. If anyone cares to debate me without talking down to me or using my age as an excuse for your lack of knoledge, go ahead. If you happen to know your stuff as well, i'd be glad to talk to you.

Coronach
August 9, 2003, 02:19 AM
Closed.

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