Cleveland police want bigger guns


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Drizzt
August 3, 2003, 11:23 PM
Cleveland police want bigger guns
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The Associated Press

CLEVELAND - City police want more powerful handguns that fire bigger bullets, saying they would be better at stopping dangerous suspects, but the campaign has stalled amid the police shooting deaths of six civilians last year.

Mayor Jane Campbell won't buy the larger guns because she's afraid of upsetting residents who don't trust officers, police union president Bob Beck said.

Beck wants the city to replace the department's Smith and Wesson 9 mm handguns with Glock .40-caliber guns.

City Safety Director James Draper said the 9 mm weapons are so dependable that two-thirds of the police departments in the country use them, he said.

"It was not a political issue. It was a safety issue," Draper said. "My concern is our police officers don't get hurt and die and neither do our citizens."

Telephone messages were left Saturday with members of Campbell's press office.

The .40-caliber bullets are heavier and slightly wider, so they would inflict more damage and be more likely to make a suspect fall, Beck said. Both guns are semiautomatic weapons, not revolvers.

"We're having suspects that are hit and still shooting," Beck said. "This is a necessary piece of equipment that will help police defend themselves."

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/08/03/loc_oh-police03.html

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Coronach
August 3, 2003, 11:29 PM
Wow.

Does that article just fairly scream "Gun Ignoramus" on the parts of reporter, editor, Mayor and Safety Director? Its like the Trifecta plus one.

:scrutiny:

Mike

Fed168
August 3, 2003, 11:59 PM
How about spending the money on training? But the guns could be ending their service life.

Hal
August 4, 2003, 06:22 AM
Years ago when the Cleveland Police Department wanted to move away from the .38sp and the 158 gr RNL to a 9mm high capacity, I was an ardent and vocal supporter.

That was then.

Now, we as private citizens demand the same basic right to arm ourselves.

The Cleveland Police Department has done nothing to support us.

Let em have whistles and sticks for all I care.

feedthehogs
August 4, 2003, 08:46 AM
I found this quote from Evan Marshall, a retired Detroit PD Sgt who taught swat.

"While we were equipped with specialized weapons denied the rest of the department, I made it perfectly clear to the team that we would certainly find ourselves in situations where we were out-gunned. I taught them that the solution was not to request more powerful weapons, but to use superior tactics that would minimize if not fully negate the advantage such weapons provided our opponents. We might be deprived access to certain weapons, but careful training taught us to employ tactics that would allow us to solve the problem."
....................................................
I think it speaks volumes about training in general.
The most important weapon is the one between your ears.

TarpleyG
August 4, 2003, 08:47 AM
I was always left scratching my head when my friend that is a Dallas PD officer would tell me that they were not able to carry anything bigger than a 9mm/.38spl/.357Sig. No .40S&W or .45ACP. Why does it matter? A dead guy shot by one is just as dead as one shot by the other. PC at its peak.

GT

TheeBadOne
August 4, 2003, 10:50 AM
I remember just a few short years ago when NYPD was 1st authroized to carry semi-automatics (9mm). There was public outcry from the minority section that this was racisim, so the powers that be decided to have the magazines restricted to 10 rounds (yeah, I'm thunderstruck by their thinking too....). Well, after a while common sense took over (read: officer deaths) and the regular mags were issued.
Usually when a Dept. switches firearms there are several things involved. As already noted by a previous post above there's a chance the guns are near the end of their service life. Depts most often (now days) replace them with the same gun they have, which goes unnoticed. It's only when they change to something new that it gets attention.
A local PD had S&W 645 (stainless .45 ACP, made before the 4506) pistols and were very happy with them. When the Officers on the street began to request night sights the powers that be said yes, that would be useful. Well, the 645 had fixed sites and no night sight resolution (as far as reasonable, the price quoted to convert them would bowl you over). They looked at the service miles on the 645's, and the cost of putting night sights on them vs. purchasing a new handgun with nightsights. Money wise it was no brainer. The PD sold the 645's to the dealer that then sold them brand new Glock 22's with night sights. Where did I get this info from? The same place I got my prior service S&W 645 from :D (the dealer) :cool:

dandean316
August 4, 2003, 12:14 PM
Ted Nugent said something like "A 9mm is better than a stick in a fight, but not by much."

It's amazing ther is an outcry against bigger guns, then again these are the same people who think rubber bullets and bean bags are the only way to stop a criminal.

By the way, I don't intend an argument if the 9mm is enough stopping power. I own 2.

4v50 Gary
August 4, 2003, 03:19 PM
A 9mm in the brain puts 'em down just fine. Better marksmanship is the key but agencies (or chiefs or the city/county/state) just don't want to spend the money or devote the training time.

Mikul
August 4, 2003, 03:27 PM
The way most police officers shoot, they would need to go to a 40-inch gun to make up for their poor marksmanship. .05" isn't going to do anything for them.

dandean316
August 4, 2003, 03:40 PM
A 9mm in the brain puts 'em down just fine

I just had a class where we used point shooting in low light conditions. One of our drills was 2 shots to the chest, and one to the head. Our instructor said generally never use a head shot because your sweet spot is from the bottom of the eyebrows to the top of the teeth. Basically he said if you kit the skull the bullet will bounce off.

That said we did the drill anyway because a criminal may have body armor on. It's rare, but could happen.

Majic
August 4, 2003, 05:12 PM
Our instructor said generally never use a head shot because your sweet spot is from the bottom of the eyebrows to the top of the teeth. Basically he said if you kit the skull the bullet will bounce off.

This instructor left out a small part. A minor caliber hitting the skull has the possibility bouncing off. Major calibers shatter the skull and bore thru when they strike.

BryanP
August 4, 2003, 05:16 PM
Basically he said if you kit the skull the bullet will bounce off.

I've always wondered about that. I mean, even if it does bounce off, wouldn't it knock you silly? Stun you for a few moments at the very least? (moments that could be used for another shot or for retreat as appropriate)

keyhole
August 4, 2003, 07:15 PM
Shot placement is always the best bet. Sad that dept's do not have the funding to spend more on firearms training.

As for hitting the skull and bouncing off, I'd bet the stats would show more entered, than bouncing off.

Autolite
August 4, 2003, 08:37 PM
the mayor is "afraid of upsetting residents". To advocate sending any LEO into a potential deadly situation with something less than the most effective weapon is criminal. Risking the lives of those who "serve and protect" as a PC angle is unconscionable ...

bfox
August 4, 2003, 08:53 PM
Are all Police issued just one choice of firearm ?
I live in a small suburb in Pa. and a officer I was talking to
said he could score a lot better with a revolver .
They are issued auto 's .
Seems like he should be able to use what works for him .

tlnzz
August 4, 2003, 08:59 PM
Cleveland police want bigger guns
Cleveland police want bigger guns


Why? They are doing a good enough job of killing people with what they have.

natedog
August 4, 2003, 09:00 PM
I think if a 9mm can penetrate a WW2 era helmat from (I believe) 50 or so yards (conducted during penetration tests between .45 and 9mm), then
I think it can go through a forehead.

TheeBadOne
August 4, 2003, 09:07 PM
natedog, that's FMJ ball ammo

natedog
August 4, 2003, 09:18 PM
true, but when the bullet strikes the skull it hasn't fragmented/expanded yet. HP will probably fragment when they hit the skull, this sending several (usually around 30) hunks of metal through the brain. Still just as dead.

Autolite
August 4, 2003, 09:24 PM
I read a WWII test that showed that a 9mm will penetrate a helmet at a further range than a .45 ACP. Maybe the cops could turn the argument around by doing some tests and to see if the .40 has less penetration than their current 9mm. They could ask for the new guns in order to address "over penetration" concerns...

TheeBadOne
August 4, 2003, 09:35 PM
As long as you brought up the good old .45 I'll mention one thing that makes it the good old .45....
Notice how most handgun calibers have a plethera of bullet weights? For self-defense ammo the .45 has basicly 2, the 230 gr and the 185 gr. Know why? When you start addressing different test (FBI, etc) different bullets are made to address those tests. The good old .45 230 gr load (Hydra-shok is the grandfather of the high performance hollowpoint) works very well on all of them :cool:

BowStreetRunner
August 4, 2003, 10:57 PM
while the arguement about whether they need them or not may be valid.....i dont think that we SHOULD politicize the police department's sidearms or equipment issues.......that being said the police dept SHOULD support the const. (ie: 2nd Am.)
politics at its peak indeed
BSR

Atticus
August 5, 2003, 12:14 AM
Cleveland? I'd recommend flame throwers. :D

blades67
August 5, 2003, 12:16 AM
I wonder how many Cleveland PD officers would become victims of the Glock "just going off" in the locker room.:rolleyes:

10-Ring
August 5, 2003, 12:26 AM
The .40-caliber bullets are heavier and slightly wider, so they would inflict more damage and be more likely to make a suspect fall

Isn't that the point? If the 9mm round isn't doing the job, it's time to find a round that does.

blades67
August 5, 2003, 12:30 AM
The 9mm is doing the job, the CPD just keep shooting the wrong people.:scrutiny:

Erik
August 5, 2003, 02:40 AM
They want 40s? Give 'em 40s.

Matt G
August 5, 2003, 03:15 AM
City Safety Director James Draper said the 9 mm weapons are so dependable that two-thirds of the police departments in the country use them, he said.

"It was not a political issue. It was a safety issue," Draper said. "My concern is our police officers don't get hurt and die and neither do our citizens."
Great. The guns they have are the safest? Good. ( :rolleyes: )
It's not political? Good.
It's not about money? Good.

So keep the guns you've got, and spend the replacement amount on extra long-term training for every gun-wearing, badge-toting officer in the P.D. (Training's expensive-- requires paying good instructors, reserving a venue, paying officers while at training and paying other officers to cover their shifts, paying for ammo, targets, and other expenses, and even the inevitable wear and tear on the guns and other equipment.)

No? Not feasible? Then I would submit that the City Safety Director has his mind on other issues.

TonyB
August 5, 2003, 07:14 AM
1)Learn to shoot
2)Shoot the right people
3)Public opinion is BS..................:cool:

TheeBadOne
August 5, 2003, 07:17 AM
Also the point is about stopping people, not killing them. A .22 LR is lethal, but doesn't stop like a .40

dandean316
August 5, 2003, 08:07 AM
This instructor left out a small part. A minor caliber hitting the skull has the possibility bouncing off. Major calibers shatter the skull and bore thru when they strike.
He didn't mention that, but the guy was shooting a 9mm.

I've always wondered about that. I mean, even if it does bounce off, wouldn't it knock you silly? Stun you for a few moments at the very least? (moments that could be used for another shot or for retreat as appropriate)

Sure, but the thinking is if the guy is hopped up on drugs, they will still advance on you. Point is to (generally) always take the body shot, and only head shot if necessary.

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