[mc_coy]

Hi all,
I'm planning to buy a new shotgun. So far I only shot a 12-gauge trap gun, 2 overlapping barrels.

I need the gun for home defense, mostly, for fun secondly. I live in the countryside, home defense may mean shooting from the window to 20 yards distance and over.

My questions are the following:

providing price (within reason) is not a problem, would you choose a pump action or a semiauto?

I saw the Benelli M2 practical and I'm drooling over it:

http://www.pointernet.pds.hu/gun/shot-gun/01/20070125000346367000000419.jpg


sorry the image I found is pretty bad. I held the cheaper M2 version at the gunshop and it feels great!!

they say though it won't reload with light shots and non lethals...

Any more cons you can think about compared to teh pump action??

[The Deer Hunter]

I have a similar gun (Benelli M1-Super 90) and the only problem I have with it is the loading gate pinches your thumb if your not paying attention during loading and that there are a couple buttons for bolt hold open and bolt release which could potentially get confusing in a stressful situation.

But besides that my Benelli has had maybe 2 misfires because it had never really been cleaned.

[Fred Fuller]

Semiautos as a rule cost more than pumps. If money is really tight a pump is a better bet not to bust the budget.

Given good guns in good condition with good ammo, reliability of one over the other shouldn't be an issue. Some folks tout being able to fire the semi with only one hand (if the other hand/arm is busy/disabled) as an advantage- could be, likely won't be an issue but there it is anyway.

And AFAIK that's about all there is to talk about on the issue. Different strokes for different folks, I've been shooting 870s for a looong time and don't see me changing any time soon. YMMV of course, shoot a bunch'o'shotguns and pick what you like.

lpl/nc

[Ash]

I have semi autos, pumps, and over/under shotguns. I enjoy them all, but there's just something about the elegant simplicity and ruggedness of a pump-action shotgun.

Ash

[ronto]

For HD you can't beat a pump...The best of both worlds...reliability AND capacity.

P.S. My CCW is a 357 revolver. Reliability trumps capacity for SD.

[igpoobah]

I've seen lots of semi shotties jam. Even helped strip one down in the middle of a pheasant hunt, lost 15 minutes or so....

Never have heard boo out of a pump though. They always seem to work...

[mc_coy]

Thanks for the feedback so far, it would seem the semiautos may have some reliability problems.

I read there are some models (Benelli supernova 90?) where you can switch from semiauto action to pump action.

Would it be the best of both worlds or an unnecessary complication, potentially spawning mechanical problems?

I also read the following tips from Todd Jarret:

Let me show you a few options that you can put on your pump shotgun today. Extension tubes, porting, having the forcing cones released. Slings, reducing recoil stocks like the Knoxx SpecOps system. Now let me show you what all of these options can do for you on a bank of targets.

Are the particulars in bold something you normally add or modify, or is there a model which displays such features out of the box? I've no idea what extension tubes and slings are, and what release of the forcing cones entails...:(:(

[Ash]

Nah, most of those things are not really needed, some are little better than bobbles added. Porting is of no real value. Extension tubes refers to magazine extensions to give more rounds in the pipe.

The Benelli M2 is a fine shotgun and will do everything you need it to do. For home defense, though, I like a plain-jane shotgun. Leave the bells and whistles off for me, as the less strapped, bolted, or glued on the better. Others differ in that opinion and that is fine. For me, a good, solid, pump-action is ideal for home defense. A good, solid, semi like the Remington 11-87 is great, too. My grandfather used a Remington Model 11 for many decades for home defense, mostly to kill armadillos and feral cats. He never had a problem with it.

Me, I use a Mossberg 500 and am satisfied. I also have a Savage 720, which, like the Remington 11 is based on the Browning A-5, and it has never given me trouble. I also have a Savage 333 to round things out.

The simpler you keep your shotgun, the less there is to break. As Scotty said, "The more you overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." Sage advice that works for me.

Ash

[GunTech]

The main reason for the Benelli M4 is that inertia unlocked guns like the Benelli M1/M2 are weight sensitive. If you add to much weight to them, they become unreliable. The Military wanted to be able to add things like starlight sights.

An original M1/M2 is a much simpler gun and will require less cleaning. As noted, it will cost much more - about 3x what a good pump gun will cost. A semi is more easily operated if you only have one hand available.

I like my M1S90

http://guntech.com/shotgun/m1s90.jpg

[Fred Fuller]

I read there are some models (Benelli supernova 90?) where you can switch from semiauto action to pump action.

That would be the Benelli M3 IIRC. Ancient saying: "Jack of all trades, master of none." Some folks own 'em and endorse 'em, none of the folks I would seek out and pay money to for defensive shotgun training do. YMMV on that one.

Basically it matters much much less what hardware you own than how good you are at running it and hitting what you shoot at with it. Skill doesn't come in a box, it can't be bought. It has to be learned.

Forget the "nonlethal" loads, ANYTHING fired in a shotgun (including blanks) can kill. If you aren't justified in shooting with a lethal load then you aren't justified in shooting with a so-called nonlethal (actually referred to now as LESS lethal) load.

Over 20 yards? Learn to shoot slugs. Get a shotgun with sights if necesary.

Go out and shoot a bunch'o'shotguns of various types (from friends, family, gun club rentals, etc.) and pick whatever suits YOU best. Then train/practice with it till it handles like a body part.

lpl/nc

[waterhouse]

I saw the Benelli M2 practical

Keep in mind that the gun you mentioned was designed very specifically to compete in competition. It has a 26" barrel, which is 6-8" longer than most people have on their HD guns, partly because it was designed to hold a lot of shells and you wouldn't want your magazine tube sticking out 8" past the end of your barrel.

The choice of semi or pump is up to you.

If you want a Benelli, I'd suggest the regular tactical model with the 18" barrel. You can save some money by finding a used M1 as well.

[jlbraun]

(arnold)

The Saiga 12-gauge autoloader.

(/arnold)

Available in stock configuration for about $400:
http://www.keepshooting.com/productimages/firearms/shotguns/saiga12gaugeshotgunbig.jpg
Or converted to pistol grip for $700.
http://www.keepshooting.com/productimages/firearms/shotguns/saiga12cshotgunbig.jpg

[Chuck R.]

It’s funny, but people always mention the reliability issue when choosing between a pump and auto shotgun, but will not hesitate to rely a semi pistol or rifle. But yet, I’ve seen way more jams with semi pistols and rifles than I have with shotguns. Maybe it’s just me.

In my experience a good auto shotgun properly maintained with good ammunition is about as reliable as it gets.

Add in the human factor as part of the “system” and the auto may even be considered more reliable. Based the couple shotgun courses I’ve taken and a couple matches and I’ve seen more pumps short-shucked than I have autos jam.

Chuck

[TrapperReady]

Never have heard boo out of a pump though. They always seem to work...


I've helped plenty of folks un-jam a pump. I've also seen plenty of autos jam. Either can work, or either can fail. You need to pick one, shoot it enough to become proficient and confident that it will function. You also need to perform regular maintenance to ensure that it continues to do so.

[kentucky_smith]

My problem is I want to hold my left hand close to the reciever, seems unbalanced way out there on a pump.

Trying to correct that with a model 12. :D

[ravencon]

A pump shotgun is as reliable as the operator. In a high stress situation it wouldn't be hard to short stroke a pump or to even forget to cycle it.

A well chosen semi should avoid these issues but it will cost you more. I've got a Benelli M1 and a Mossberg 590. Of the two, I'd go with the Benelli. YMMV.

[H2O MAN]

Other than a model 94 and a PYTHON all of my weapons are semi auto.

My HK/Benelli M1S90 is super fast, extremely accurate and it requires no pumping.

[KBintheSLC]

they say though it won't reload with light shots and non lethals...

I would not recommend using anything that will not do the job. If the situation does not call for "deadly force", then you should not use a gun. If it does call for "deadly force", then you should not sell your shotgun short by loading it with stuff designed for the riot squad. I only use #4 and larger buck shot... preferably 0 or 00 buck.

That said, I would go with the pump for better reliability.

I've helped plenty of folks un-jam a pump.
Possible... yes. But it is less likely than a semi jamming. Most pump jams are user errors like not cycling the action fast and hard enough to eject the expired round.

[rmarcustrucker]

reliablility of a pump can't be beat. I've not met an auto that was as dependable unless it's that cool new one with a cylinder magazine.

[PJR]

Most often when a pump fails it's the operator's fault.

Most often when a semi fails it's because of lack of maintenance or poor shell selection.

Both work. The pump requires more practice and less attention. The semi more attention and less practice. Choose the one that suits you best.

[Defensory]

A semi-auto is your best bet for home/self-defense.

Be sure to check out the Benelli M2 Tactical with Comfortech stock, which significantly reduces recoil and barrel rise.

http://www.bhgunrack.com/images/dynamic/M2_Tactical_RS_CT_FS.jpg

[mc_coy]

:) Very interesting answers to my original post, even if the various opinions disagree, they highlight different aspects of the same issue. I'll sure weigh in all your insight before purchase (and, what the heck, I might even buy semi and pump! If the former jams, I've got the latter, or reverse!!):cool:.

Pls. keep those answers rolling!!

[Pete409]

Chuck R in post #13 hit the nail on the head. There is nothing inherently unreliable about a pump shotgun, but when you introduce the human factor (under stress and scared *****less) the pump guns have a great tendency to jam due to "short stroking" by the operator.

An auto shotgun, OTOH, knows nothing about stress or being scared. All it knows is that if it is properly taken care of and proper ammunition is used, it will work with almost 100% certainty.... regardless how scared or excited the operator is.

If you trust your life to an auto pistol, why should a shotgun be any different?

I see newbies bring their pump shotguns to the clay target range all the time and most of them have jam after jam when trying to shoot doubles (2 shots in quick succession).

[PJR]

Depends on the semi-auto. Twice I've had Remington auto loaders rendered hors de combat due to broke parts (link and action bars.)

Pump guns require practice. When I've seen people short shuck it's because they weren't familiar with the gun. Pump it like you're trying to break it.

[Pete409]

Depends on the semi-auto. Twice I've had Remington auto loaders rendered hors de combat due to broke parts (link and action bars.)

I've got a Remington 1100 autoloader. I've put about 2,500 rounds through it without a single broken part.

I've also got a Beretta 390 autoloader. I've put about 13,000 rounds through it with only one broken part. That's about a 99.992% reliability rate due to parts breakage. That's considerably better than the reliability rate of someone under great stress trying to pump a pump gun. Besides, pumps are not immune to parts breakage. The reason you don't see more parts breakage on pumps is because few people shoot them enough to break a part. Most people buy a pump gun, shoot 3 boxes of shells through it, and then proclaim themself an expert shotgunner with an infallible shotgun. :D

One of the biggest myths in shotgunning is that pump guns are super reliable and never jam. I've not only seen pumps jam on countless occasions, I've also seen them eject both the empty round and the round out of the magazine onto the ground. I've seen pumps jam when trying to feed two rounds at the same time. I've seen them eject the empty and close the bolt on an empty chamber with live shells still in the magazine.

In my opinion, the average shotgun owner would be better served with a well-maintained auto than with a pump shotgun for self defense.

[PJR]

One of the biggest myths in shotgunning is that pump guns are super reliable and never jam. I've not only seen pumps jam on countless occasions, I've also seen them eject both the empty round and the round out of the magazine onto the ground. I've seen pumps jam when trying to feed two rounds at the same time. I've seen them eject the empty and close the bolt on an empty chamber with live shells still in the magazine.
I've seen both those occur as well but occasionally not "countless times" but when it does you get a "click." One quick pump and you are back in business.

When the Remingtons failed in the manner described they were finished on the spot. The action bar failure was particularly nasty. I'm not against a semi-auto just wary of Remington.

We agree that just firing three boxes through a pump isn't going build the proficiency needed but anyone using any firearm for self-defense who doesn't practice with it regularly is a fool.

[walking arsenal]

It’s funny, but people always mention the reliability issue when choosing between a pump and auto shotgun, but will not hesitate to rely a semi pistol or rifle.

They are less load sensitive because the loads change very little.

Switching from birdshot to buckshot to low recoil buck or slugs or magnum slugs or buck can cause quite a bit of variation on an auto loading shotgun.

They might not run all those loads.

My one issue with pumps like the rem 870 is the feed elevator. If a sling gets in it or if a shell slips in between the elevator and bolt, your hosed.

I prefer the mossberg 500 or the Browning bps home defense for that reason.

[kentucky_smith]

Blondes, brunettes, redheads.


Variety is good. :evil:

[tblt]

I like pump guns

[berettashotgun]

I use a Beretta 1201fp OR a pintail w/slug barrel for social duties around the house.
Semi-auto's but blow back (inertia -whatever) like a Benelli. Practically the same.
I guess I could use the Browning Gold lite 10ga with slugs and 000 shot. Found a pattern for a mag extension for the gold 10 and I think I'll have a 10 shot 10ga. sweet.
I dove hunted with a remy 1100 sporting 28ga this year and did NOT!!! have a single issue, also got into the birds to the tune of 400+. Pretty reliable Remington.
I have had a few jams in my Berettas' over the years - I just cannot seem to remember it ever happening, only would have missed a duck or bird - nothing life threatening.
My long drawn out point is - I use autos; I got to looking the other day and have acquired 143 empty lead shot bags. I can't remember the last failure.

[Pete409]

Switching from birdshot to buckshot to low recoil buck or slugs or magnum slugs or buck can cause quite a bit of variation on an auto loading shotgun.

That's not exactly correct. It makes absolutely ZERO difference what shot size or slug size you have in the shell. The autoloading gun has no way of knowing if it's 1 ounce of birdshot or a 1 ounce slug. If the payload is the same and the velocity is the same, the gun will react the same.

As to the issue of "magnum" or standard loads, find the load that your gun likes and stick with it. If you do shoot different loads during practice, at least shoot enough of your HD loads to make sure your gun likes them too.

Again, as to comparing an autoloading shotgun with an automatic pistol, most auto shotguns are gas operated and have a system to regulate the amount of gas going into the gas cylinder and venting the rest. Auto pistols have no such "metering" system. They are totally dependent upon the recoil force produced by firing the round to cycle the action.

[jad0110]

Most pump jams are user errors like not cycling the action fast and hard enough to eject the expired round.

When you practice, rack that sucker like you are trying to break it! Don't be timid. If the SHTF, God forbid, hopefully you will rack it hard from muscle memory just as you trained.

An auto shotgun, OTOH, knows nothing about stress or being scared. All it knows is that if it is properly taken care of and proper ammunition is used, it will work with almost 100% certainty.... regardless how scared or excited the operator is.

Perhaps, to a point. But bad software is bad software whether it is running on a Dell, Acer, Gateway ... etc.

Note that I don't claim to be a well trained expert. So my 2 cents are probably not quite :o .

[Snarlingiron]

When you practice, rack that sucker like you are trying to break it! Don't be timid. If the SHTF, God forbid, hopefully you will rack it hard from muscle memory just as you trained.

I have watched WAY too many folks operate a pump in a timid fashion. When you pump it, you need to PUMP it. I have run a lot of 870's. If you aggressively cycle the action, and learn to aggressively feed the weapon, it will not let you down. Even if it does get jammed, holding the forend while smartly smacking the butt stock to the ground will clear most jams. I have several autos, but if I have to grab a shotgun to defend myself it will be the 870.

[sm]

Software not hardware.

I am in the camp of keeping it as simple as can, and this of course looks better in front of Cops showing up and in front of juries too...along with the less there is, the less chance of something going "ka-put"


No tool is ever better than the user of said tool and tool use is easier to learn and become one with , if one learns and uses simple tools.


All tools can and will break, and Mr. Murphy will see to it, this breakage happens at the worst time.

So, having simple also negates some of the problem solving of "what is wrong?".
One needs to know how to run the gun - period.

It might not be the gun, instead a variable some forget about, the ammunition.

Slap trigger and "click" instead of "bang" now what are you going to do?
Get that round out and another in is the solution.


Jams happen, so does a extraction or chambering problem, firing pins freeze up or bust...

Transition drills are good to know...

I do not do side saddles as I can punch receiver pins out, with a pencil, pen, car keys, stick, ...drop trigger group, get the stuck blown primer out and gun is fixed.

870s are modular, so if a firing pin breaks, or extractor goes out during a training class, , take the whole bolt out, put in the extra bolt brought in parts kit, and back to taking the class...

Shotguns are just tools, are you willing to bust steel plates with a muzzle or come down with a buttstock to bust a melon?

I was and I have. Lessons being, "survive" and the only way I could "survive" as my guns were loaded for me, and not loaded with a full cylinder or mag, was to use the shotgun as a tool to "survive".

Busted guns were just how some of my lessons went is all...
WE did not have the guns folks do today, or any gun schools either....



Software not hardware...

[Chuck R.]

Guys,

I shot pumps for years, but still had an occasional short-shuck when hunting. All it took was a hard left to right crossing shot when sitting, or a high overhead passing shot. When I switched to hunting out of a layout boat I'd get hung up a couple times a year. A semi I can shoot prone, sitting, and one handed.

This summer I had a friend and his daughter out to my place to do some shooting. She went through about 3 mag fulls in my Benelli by just pointing a clicking. Meanwhile, she jammed my MOD 12 twice.

You guys are right in that training can help, but in my own experience I've still had and seen more pumps short-shucked then I have semis jam. Last shotgun course I took it was the same thing, several students with pumps got hung up, the 3 of us with autos sailed through.

I go up to the skeet club on post and see guys going through hundreds of rounds and afternoon without issue.

IMHO the benefits a pump has over a semi are cost and ammo sensitivity.

Chuck

[diesel83]

I shot Benelli Super 90's quite a bit in college. Loved them. I found that they cycled better with #4 buck for "business loads". Very reliable action, though when shooting my buddy's Super Black Eagle, they tend to gum up if you shoot light loads and have not done proper cleanings.

I shoot a Beretta AL-391 and am very well satisfied with the overall operation for pheasant.

A lot of people love pumps. Personally, I liked the disassembly/assembly of the Winchester 1200 series over the Mossberg 500s, but having cash and my druthers, the Benelli is choice #1.

[Snarlingiron]

IMHO the benefits a pump has over a semi are cost and ammo sensitivity.

Can't disagree with that. Also can't disagree with the fact the MOST pump gun failures are due to "short shucking". Operate it with authority, and it will work.

[conrad carter]

does Benelli still make the dual use shotgun? It was a semi untill you turned the knob and it became a pump.

[Pete409]

I assume that all the pump gun advocates are driving standard shift transmission cars, right? After all, we can't depend on those new-fangled "automatic" transmissions can we?

[walking arsenal]

Guilty!

And for the same reasons.

[PJR]

I assume that all the pump gun advocates are driving standard shift transmission cars, right? After all, we can't depend on those new-fangled "automatic" transmissions can we?
If a pump gun or a standard transmission is beyond your capacity to operate effectively then they are not for you.

But don't claim superiority of either because millions of people use both standard transmissions and pump shotguns to great effect in a variety of situations. All it takes is a little practice.

[jad0110]

I assume that all the pump gun advocates are driving standard shift transmission cars, right?

Correct! But I don't have anything against semiauto shotguns whatsoever.

For the record though, automatic transmissions suck! :neener:

[Patrick_Henry]

If money doesn't matter I suggest you choose by personal preference...

I have a semi because it has lower felt recoil (which leads to slightly quicker follow ups) and is simpler to use.

Those who use pumps advocate the simplicity of the actual mechanical system.

I don't think it matters, in the end it's all in training anyways. So just get what you want...

[OU_Gryphon]

I like my pistols auto and my cars manual (preferably with 5 or more speeds). But when it comes to scatter guns, there's nothing quite like the sound and feel of a pump gun well racked.