[johnle]

I always wonder in my head whenever I hear about another shooting in Oakland or Richmond which is about 30 minutes away from where I used to live, what do criminals use in their guns when they commit illegal acts?

What ever is cheap or are they wising up and using the same stuff we use to defend ourselves?

[Thernlund]

Whatever goes bang I'd think. A violent criminal uses a gun for intimidation, and as such doesn't depend on a bullets stopping power. A law-abiding gun owner uses a gun for self defense, and as such DOES depend on stopping power.


-T.

[Kind of Blued]

Often times, nothing. It seems that a considerable percentage of stories I read of thwarted convenience store hold-ups are indeed thwarted because the criminal's unloaded gun wasn't quite a match for the CCWers very loaded gun.

Col. Cooper's first rule still applies, of course.

[armoredman]

What ever was in the gun when it was stolen, usually.

[Moonclip]

Depends, usually many seem to have no idea when it comes to loading up but others are influenced by rap lyrics or are not complete morons. I knew a gangster in my area was carrying a .357 revolver loaded with BHA hollowpoints.

[johnle]

most popular gun on the streets around here according to my friends who are in law enforcement is the Glock 22 and Glock 23.

Sadly, on the streets and in local gun shops I hear people refer to as the "Glock Fortay"

[M1 Shooter]

The most popular pistols with the criminal element in my area are Makarov's and various .22 pistols according to a friend of mine who is a local cop. He says they are most often loaded with ball ammo if they are loaded at all. A few weeks ago he took a SIG P220 .45 loaded with JHP off a local thug, of course it was stolen, but that is pretty rare around here.

However, since we live in a rural community, rifles and shotguns are actually far more common than pistols. The rifles taken from criminals around here are usually common bolt action and lever action hunting rifles along with a few SKS's. Most common shotguns are 12 ga. pump actions, sometimes illegally "sawn off", but more often than not they are still equipped with the original long hunting barrels.

[NGIB]

What ever was in the gun when it was stolen, usually.

Huge +1, you owe me a keyboard...

[CWL]

Do not underestimate your opponent.

Serious BGs prepare for war every day, do you?

Hardened criminals have lived thru gunfights and probably everyone they know has survived gun violence as well. They have far more 'street' knowledge of what bullets do to human tissue than you ever will.

[abrink]

Well if they're loaded at all they're going to be loaded with whatever they can get their hands on. Criminals dont care about quality guns, expanding ammunition, or anything like that.They care about getting their money so they can buy their drugs. That's about it.

[Aran]

Not all criminals are into drugs though, abrink.

[Ske1etor]

What ever was in the gun when it was stolen, usually.

I believe that this is more commonly the case than most people realize. These guys aren't out running through 250 rounds a week at the range.

In fact, if I can find the article I will post it later... It was about this older gentleman, WWII Vet I believe. Had a service model 1911 that was brought back from the war over there in the pacific. There was one loaded magazine in the gun and it hadn't been touched in years. The guys grandson had asked to see it and therefore it was out of the attic. Someone robbed the mans home and took the firearm.

Later on that day, the firearm was used in thwarting a criminal act and robbery. The criminal was pointing the firearm at a convenient store clerk and she couldn't open the "Safe". He pulled the trigger and nothing happened. He looked down the barrel to see what was going on and he just happened to eat two hundred and thirty grains of lead and a negligible amount of gunpowder at 800 feet per second. Seems that if not stored properly for 60 years, those primers lose a bit of their "spunk".

[Library Guy]

They use target ammo… at least in one shooting.

My brother is an ER doc in rural Virginia. One night, Police and paramedics bring in an undocumented agricultural worker who has a gunshot wound to his hip/butt assembly.

The patient of course was doing nothing and saw nothing when he was shot.

Anyway, brother doctor (shooter and handloader) looks at the x-rays and sees the unmistakable silhouette of a .45 swc. The bullet created a shallow and easily survivable wound.

So, we can imagine someone out there with a stolen Gold Cup complete with target ammo.

By the way, the paramedics, experts that they are, looked at the wound and insisted to the police that it was a 9mm

[Conqueror]

Depends on the criminal. Someone hunting the president might invest in some AP .50BMG or something.

But your average criminal? He's not buying a $35 box of Federal HST to go rob $40 from the 7-11.

[VHinch]

Can't recall exactly where I saw this story, but I remember reading where one law enforcement officer took a .38 special revolver off someone that was loaded with 4 .38 rounds and one .22 round that had been wrapped with duct tape until it fit in the chamber.

[Fish828]

the most popular guns i've seen/heard for criminal use are glocks (because of reliability and the fact that criminals never clean them) and snub nose revolvers. as far as premium ammo, you would be surprised how popular the federal hydra-shoks are...

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Most common shotguns are 12 ga. pump actions, sometimes illegally "sawn off", but more often than not they are still equipped with the original long hunting barrels.
Do the police call the BATFE? Do the thugs go to federal prison? Isn't it great that when an actual criminal gets caught with an SBR/SBS, they get to spend the night in lockup and get a sweet deal from the DA if they turn on one of their buddies? Yet if any of us normal law abiding citizens gets caught with an SBR/SBS, it's tens of thousands of $$ in fines and a decade in prison.

[Mandirigma]

They care about getting their money so they can buy their drugs. That's about it.

A generalization. Some criminals do it just to pay the rent or electricity or etc. It is easier and faster than actually having to work for a living.

They are getting smarter, well at least more experienced. They have their own society and networking. Luckily theirs is more prone to deliver bad advice without anyone around to correct it.

Here's something to chew on. Whats to stop them from coming here and using what we've posted against us? Nothing.

[Deacon Blues]

They are getting smarter, well at least more experienced. They have their own society and networking.Indeed. Somewhere, there's probably a criminal forum where someone wants to know what kind of ammo law-abiding citizens use. Hey, somebody bought thelowroad.com! Before long, they'll all be doing what we're doing! :what:

I think crime rates are about to drop dramatically. The bad guys just sentenced themselves to a life of arguing 9mm vs .45. :p

[Mad Chemist]

Indeed. Somewhere, there's probably a criminal forum where someone wants to know what kind of ammo law-abiding citizens use. Hey, somebody bought thelowroad.com! Before long, they'll all be doing what we're doing!

http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/index.html

[Mad Chemist]

Indeed. Somewhere, there's probably a criminal forum where someone wants to know what kind of ammo law-abiding citizens use. Hey, somebody bought thelowroad.com! Before long, they'll all be doing what we're doing!

http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/index.html

[PPGMD]

By the way, the paramedics, experts that they are, looked at the wound and insisted to the police that it was a 9mm.

Most ER docs will tell that they can't tell the difference between 9mm and 45 from the wound track alone. The difference between them are pretty minor.

[highorder]

http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/162568.html

the lack of detail is wonderful. I hope criminals do this, so their gun will jam and misfire.

[CBS220]

That article was more or less stolen from the book Fight Club, I believe.

[Thernlund]

Hey, somebody bought thelowroad.com!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!


-T.

[Huddog]

IMHO it depends on the same thing many law abiding gun owners depend on. Advice of "friends", gunshop owners, tv, radio or just whatever they see on the walmart shelf that fits the weapon. I think it also depends on how much of a gun person they are.

[jaydubya]

Unless we speak of madrassah graduates, I think this thread is about local punks. They carry whatever they can get, loaded with whatever they can get. And they practice -- huh?

There are others, however, so we practice.
Cordially, Jack

[MechAg94]

I would think smarter criminals are smart enough to rob your house when you are gone.

[Timthinker]

I think that it is important to recall that criminals are not a monolithic group sharing common backgrounds. A mob enforcer is different from a youthful street punk. A drug addict is not the same as a professional jewel thief. Perhaps the best approach to answering this question is to know your environment and the most obvious threats in it. This is how I would think about the issue. I hope this suggestion is useful.


Timthinker

[762plinkster]

I grew up in gang terroritory and they don't really tend to mess around. Most carry glocks i'll say of the 9mm or 40 cal type and they like hollowpoints because of rap songs and what not.

They like to keep "street sweepers" or automatic weapons in the car just incase they "need it"

But some like the movie shot guns that are "sawn off"

another scary thing i always thought was that they often had body armor

some old friends of mine took a different patha and well their body armor saved them

its getting tricky out there...too bad we have to follow the rules

[Craft714]

"Whatever goes bang I'd think."

[easyg]

I must confess that in my younger days I ran with a not so law abiding crowd...
While there are some really stupid criminals, the majority of them are not near as dumb as some of you guys might think.

They're on the internet too, and they participate in forums just like this one.
And for them, getting guns is as easy as getting drugs....all it takes is money.

Heck, I got mine the legal way...go to the local sheriff's office, apply for a handgun permit, wait about three weeks, go pick up the permit, take the permit to a gun shop, fill out more paperwork, and buy my pistol.
But an old "friend" of mine could have got me a Glock 17 in about two hours.

It also might interest you to know that there are plenty of criminals in the military as well.
When I was a Soldier I knew other Soldiers who were in black gangs, latino gangs, and white gangs.
My room-mate for awhile, a Combat Engineer, was also a Disciple from Chicago...tats and all.

Don't underestimate the criminal element.

[Soybomb]

Often times, nothing. It seems that a considerable percentage of stories I read of thwarted convenience store hold-ups are indeed thwarted because the criminal's unloaded gun wasn't quite a match for the CCWers very loaded gun.
I've noticed that as well. It doesn't seem like there any general rule. Unchambered, unloaded, half full mags, jhps, fmjs...it seems like its just a mix.

[foghornl]

My "Mr. Wise N. Hiemer Travelling The Low Road" answer was going to be "Whatever was in/with the gun when it was stolen."

Most likely, though, if ammo was acquired later, probably the cheapest stuff on the shelf.

F'rinstance, say for a moment you are Mr/Ms Bad Guy/Bad Gal...you have [ahem] 'obtained' a .38Spl revolver and need some ammo, but funds are low...what are you going to buy? The <$10/box LRN ammo, or the $25+/box "Gold Dot/Golden Sabre/Other Super Primo"?

[DrLaw]

In a medium-sized midwestern (Illinois) city, the stores where ammo was sold would sell birdshot shells whenever some people who did not appear to be hunters or sportsmen would come in to buy ammo. As a result, there were a lot of woundings, but not much in the way of actual killings due to distances involved when the shots flew. However, as time went on, the bad guys shifted to other guns and shotguns went out of general use.

Instead we had mostly .22's, and at one point a .44 Special used in a stolen gun that was recovered, and a .45 Schofield from a gun that was not recovered.

There was also a one-armed man who found his girlfriend with another guy. Using a single shot break-open 12 gauge, he nailed the guy in the neck with one shot, then jumped on the car to get a better vantage point to shoot the girlfriend who was now running away. Putting the gun between his legs to hold it, he broke it open, reloaded, swung it shut and got off a shot at her before she got to safety around the side of a house. Winged her in her wing (arm). IIRC, the shooter got 45 years. Had some fun with the sentencing, which I did. The judge was older, the dead guy was named James with a last name that I won't say, but matches the spy's name in the movies with the spy name of the same first name. Each time I mentioned the dead guy's name (no family showed up) I said the last name first, then the first name followed by the last name, just like in the movie. The judge never caught on. Others in the courtroom did though. :rolleyes:

The Doc is out now. :cool:

PS, when the took the dead guy out of his car wherein he was shot, a small semi-auto fell out of his waistband onto the ground. Had he only seen the shooter coming...

[Deer Hunter]

Had a guy back in high school move from inner-city houston (a buzz-word, I know, but it's the truth) to my little 1A school in the country. Big culture shock. Well, he's been in all kinds of what we could call "criminal" dealings (Had a great hour long talk of making meth). Well he knew I was into guns and told me he had a Glock. I figured it wasn't obtained legally, so I said "It's a Glock Forty, isn't it?"

"Well yeah it is, so you know where I got it?"

"Either off a cop or a guy who got it from a cop."

"Yep"

That was the end of that conversation for the time being. Back to working on our Spanish speaking skills. In any case, I'd assume that criminals use whatever they have, which means whatever we and our law enforcement has.

[Sergeant Sabre]

According to the FBI, availability is the #1 factor considered by criminals when choosing a firearm. That is, they use whatever is available, rather than seeking out a particular make / model / caliber.

[Gun Slinger]

I have had the "happy honor" of relieving several thugs, miscreants and cretins of their 'hardware' during my career as a sworn LEO in a mid-western city with a population of 330,000-350,000. Our immediate downtown area is plagued with the usual problematic areas that one might expect to encounter in a declining "rust-belt" city including a "rotten core" central city area.


As a general rule the guns involved in such locales were:

1. stolen

2. had their serial number obliterated

3. usually worn out, beaten up and apparently never saw any regular maintenance

4. loaded with whatever was in them when they were "acquired" or was most easily and cheaply obtained, usually an 'off-brand' FMJ or RNL, both types of ammunition being found in semiautos or revolvers and often times not to full capacity

Of course, there is always an exception to the rule and hollowpoints were encountered infrequently, usually being mixed brands and designs in the magazine (or cylinder), sometimes with FMJ's to fill the balance of the guns designed capacity.

Most of the felonious nitwits that I encountered were neither complex enough in their manner of operation nor blessed with the intelligence to increase their 'competence' and improve their equipment as they tend to be a rather unmotivated lot in general.

GS

[FM12]

I arrested a local thug one night for first degree arson (setting fire to an occupied dwelling). I found a stolen, unloaded Charter Arms .44 SPECIAL Bulldog on the thug. In the car was a box of 44 MAGNUMS. He went to the local Kmart and told them, apparently, he wanted a box of "44s".

I contacted the owner of the stolen gun and returned it to him. He was thrilled, thought he'd never see it again. Our young thug spent 5 or so years in the state pen, after a plea deal that was approved by the family in the aforementioned house.

Many times the thugs will walk into a gun store and ask for a box of "nines", "40s", etc. Most dont have a clue, especially the younger ones.
I see more and more getting into the shotgun business. Usuallly, though they want handguns, easier to hide in all the baggy clothing.

I am FM (fire marshal) 12, and I approvewd this post.

[Majic]

Many times the thugs will walk into a gun store and ask for a box of "nines", "40s", etc. Most dont have a clue, especially the younger ones.
This applies to many honest gunowners also and age is not always a factor. Do not underestimate a criminal. You may run into one who don't have a clue or you may find one that has full knowlege of his weapon and his capabilities. Who says the person you see at the range all the time practicing is not a criminal? The dumb crooks get caught. Many many crimes go unsolved by the LEOs. Somebody must be thinking.

[Nomad101bc]

I dont see why they dont just use sawed off shotguns with buck shot. The buckshot is 100% impossible to do ballistics on especially out of a smooth bore.

I knew a drug dealer type who obtained a .38 specail and he smoothed the bore of the snubby and the firing pin so as to make it 100% non-distinct. The drug dealer types tend to be a bit smarter about what they use but your run of the mill thug probably just uses FMJ.

[Kenneth Lew]

Do not underestimate the criminal.

They know how to use the internet.
They do watch movies/tv.
They do practice at the local gun range.

[RyanM]

In that vein, just remember, it's the dumb ones that get caught. Don't generalize based on the ones that get caught.

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

+1 Kenneth
We have Dons Guns here in Indy, with a majority of crimes committed here in Indy with guns and ammunition linked to that store (they are very expensive 1000USD Glocks, yep, not a typo). They usually want roughly 3 times the amount for a box of ANY sort of hollow points, needless to say, an explosion of dum-dumming is apparent (according to a retired IPD officer I talk to). But every gun purchased at this sleezeball's shop comes with free range time, so they do get some training in, usually taking what they dont shoot and attempting to modify it. +1 to who said that stolen guns usually come up with a variety (various headstamps and bullet types) in the same magazine/cylinder.

[Ala Dan]

It has been my experience that the "gansta types" prefer Federal Hydra-
Shoks in all calibers; cuz they got that little "tit" [if you will] in the center.
Of course, these thugs really know very little 'bout ammo in general~! :eek:

[ZeSpectre]

what do criminals use in their guns when they commit illegal acts?

Whatever was in the gun when they stole it.

[easyg]

I dont see why they dont just use sawed off shotguns with buck shot.
For the same reasons that we don't all carry sawed off shotguns....

Criminals also eat a restaurants, have girlfriends, visit their parents, walk around the mall, play ball with their friends, take their dog for a walk....etc...

A sawed off shotgun just is'nt as practical as a handgun to carry around all day long.

[Cowtown Cop]

I have taken quite a few guns off of people that I have arrested. Criminals seem to favor cheap, low quality, small guns that are concealable in a pocket. I have never seen a criminal with a holster. Most are not fully loaded or are loaded with a mixture of whatever ammo that they had available. Most of the guns were dirty and some would not have functioned. I asked one guy who was a little calmer and not screaming threats at me why he carried such a piece of junk. He told me that if he used it he would have to get rid of it fast anyway, so why have a nice one? I have notice more shootings are happening in my area where shooters are using low cost AK variants that they carry in a car. They almost allways are poor shots but....
REMEMBER THAT A CHEAP GUN THAT IS POORLY AIMED WILL KILL YOU JUST AS DEAD. And some of them are not the garden variety street hood, but are motivated, intelligent planners that will carry out their mission regardless of the consequences.

[phoglund]

I can't say I'm really too concerned about what they may be carrying. I don't want to get shot by any type of ammo! I expect it is a continuum from crap old ammo to the newest best ammo.

[GRIZ22]

Criminals use whatever they get their hands on. They don't care if it's a mix. I arrested a guy with a Detective Special that had 6 different rounds in it.

[Matt-J2]

This thread is actually worrisome. There's a lot more to the word 'criminal' than drug addicts and wannabe thugs.

[Youngster]

From what I've seen, street thugs, outlaw biker types, skinheads and the like who actually go out and buy ammo usually seem to just go with whatever's cheapest, FMJ and non premium hollowpoints for the most part.

[senorlinc]

does it really matter? any bullet that hits the right spot can kill you. the gun toting criminals around my neighborhood may not be the best shots, but generally they dont need to be. a guy on my corner got killed last week by a ..32...killer rolled up behind him and put 2 in his head before he knew what hit him. even better was an "alleged" dealer who fled cops and ended up in the very same spot yesterday. this criminal was not so smart , he pulled a .32 out on a cop while on the run, cop put him down , 1 to the head, right next to where the innocent man died a few days before. wonder if it was the same .32? as it has been mentioned, the average low life "street" criminal doesnt usually have the pick of the litter , they dont really have the time to go order a nighthawk to put in his milt sparks holster

[MikePGS]

Not sure, but I like to hope that they aren't nearly as concerned with bullets and platforms used to launch them as the criminals during prohibition were.

[loop]

Apologies for length. This post just struck a chord.

About 11 years ago right now I decided to move to the country. In a span of a little more than two years 13 people I knew and one my 11-year-old knew were murdered.

The one that prompted the move was the one my son knew. The kid who sat next to him as school was shot on his way home from school after being sent home early because he was feeling ill. The preceding four were very good friends of mine who were all killed in the same robbery. The previous nine were mostly shot to death, but there were a couple stabbings.

The one common denominator to all of the shooting deaths was the guns were stolen. In the instance where my four friends were murdered, the guns were stolen earlier in the day. They were shot execution-style at the Firefighters Union Hall. For somewhere between $200 and $400.

It doesn't really take much skill or special ammo to kill someone at a range of 4 inches. In this case the guns were a 9mm and a .38. The 14th, the kid, was shot with a Mac-10. The gang bangers in the drive-by just wanted to see if they could hit somebody walking down the sidewalk while they drove by.

I took my boy and moved to rural Idaho after that one. Got a CCW permit as soon as they were legal.

I don't know or care what kind of ammo they used. I know two things. They stole their guns and they changed my life and my son's life.

My son has grown up and moved away and my new wife thinks I overreact to potential threats when we're out and to things that go bump in the night. She also doesn't like that I refuse to let anyone I haven't known for at least a couple years in the house.

Where we live now you could put a few football fields in the yard. We have horses, goats and slew of dogs, but I still jump every time someone unexpected comes toward the house.

I'm not trying to play like I was a victim. Just saying it changed everything about my view of the world.

When my four friends were killed I was about a dozen years into a newspaper career. When our editor heard there was a shooting at the Firefighter's Union Hall they sent me because they knew I was a union member. I covered those murders for about two weeks before I asked to be relieved.

The upside is they caught the guys. They got sent to state prison. The son of one of the women who was murdered was a biker (and a friend). He committed a felony so he could get sent to the same prison. The two guys who did the shooting are no longer with us.

A weird side note is that the woman's daughter (biker's sister) was with me 15 minutes before she was murdered. Almost exactly a year earlier. I was the last person, except her killer, to see her alive.

Part of what gets me is the overwhelming sadness of the situation. The woman who was murdered lost her firefighter husband one year, her daughter the next year, then she was was killed. Then her son got himself sent up on a felony so he could avenge his mother. Wasteful destruction of a whole family of really nice people.

Another sidelight, of the four murdered in the union hall, three were women. The fourth left his .357 revolver under the seat of the car because the union hall had a liquor license and he was a law-abiding citizen.

Yeah, I overreact to threats both real and perceived. But, you can be **** sure my family will never fall victim to similar circumstances as long as I'm alive.

And yeah, I see a scumbag pull a gun on somebody, you can bet your you-know -what I'll shoot. And, I never go anywhere that I can't take my concealed weapon. I got a bad attitude when it comes to bad guys with guns.

It's just strange. Lost so many friends in Nam then more than 20 years later, home, where it's safe...

Maybe I'll change my name here to "'Tude."

Sorry about the rant. Like I say, it struck a chord.

[Moonclip]

I also have noticed the dirty gun trend among criminal guns as well as no perceived need for a holster. if I was a criminal carrying a pistol concealed, I'd invest in a clip on holster or a barami hip grip or such, better than Mexican carry and could be ditched with the gun at a moments notice w/o having to unthread holster from belt.

A member here a while back claimed IIRC that he had a buddy in the 1%er biker crowd that put feces in his jhp cavities! I told a couple of buddies of mine, they almost died from laughter!