What makes M1A/M14 so expensive?


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civileng
February 19, 2008, 09:26 PM
Fulton Armory, Springfield Armory, even Norinco are all high dollar rifles. WHat gives?

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Andrewsky
February 19, 2008, 09:29 PM
Have you held or shot one?

My Springfield Armory M1As are really nice as far as fit and finish goes.

highorder
February 19, 2008, 09:32 PM
among other things, supply and demand. they seem to sell well.

civileng
February 19, 2008, 09:32 PM
ive held one, not had the fortune to shoot one yet.

I would LOVE one but coming up with the money is easier said than done.

AK103K
February 19, 2008, 09:33 PM
I'd say its more demand, and what the market will bear. If your willing to pay it, they will surely take it.

Its not just them M1A's, look at what the other rifles of a similar type, from semi custom makers go for.

H2O MAN
February 19, 2008, 09:43 PM
A 50 year old platform that is currently serving the GWOT is a draw to some.
Knowing that it's the last American Main Battle Rifle has it's appeal to others.
All the new mile-spec parts, modern stocks and modern gun smithing techniques are exciting to many.
The best iron sights in the business also draws people to the M14 platform.

I could go on, but I'll just post a picture of my most sedate M14s.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/LITE-SDM.jpg

civileng
February 19, 2008, 09:56 PM
Those are nice. Now you should share.:rolleyes:
I've been debating between a SA and an AR 15 for Christmas wish list.

IF I could get an M1a, any other brands that make a quality gun or SA about the best bargain?

kcmarine
February 19, 2008, 09:58 PM
Why? Cause it looks bad ass. Seriously. No one is gonna say "Hey, aren't you Richard Simmons?" to you when you are lugging an M1A/ M14.

HM2PAC
February 19, 2008, 10:04 PM
One of the things that makes it pricey is that it's Made in America.

American workers get many things that workers in other countries do not.
Health insurance, over-time, double-time, workers comp, PTO, vacations, sick days, unions, retirement packages, ......the list goes on and drives up prices.

Coronach
February 19, 2008, 10:15 PM
No one is gonna say "Hey, aren't you Richard Simmons?" to you when you are lugging an M1A/ M14.Is this a problem for you otherwise? ;)

Seriously, the reasons for the price are:

1. Supply/Demand. They're not making these things for the military anymore, so the makers don't get the economies of scale of the AR parts supply. When some company makes 5.4 bazillion widgets, reciever, lower, M16A4, that tends to drive the price down for everyone. And, since the M14 is a niche market (as compared to the AR or AK), the smaller number of makers can (and have to) make a little more per unit. If you're selling thousands of AR15s, you can have a lower profit per unit than you can if you're selling hundreds of M14s.

2. The design requires a lot of machining and detail work that other designs do not.

3. Most of the M14 clones have outstanding fit and finish.

4. In the case of Norinco and Polytech, the import ban has artificially increased the prices due to scarcity.

Mike

Coronach
February 19, 2008, 10:17 PM
No one is gonna say "Hey, aren't you Richard Simmons?" to you when you are lugging an M1A/ M14.Is this a problem for you otherwise? ;)

Seriously, the reasons for the price are:

1. Supply/Demand. They're not making these things for the military anymore, so the makers don't get the economies of scale of the AR parts supply. When some company makes 5.4 bazillion widgets, reciever, lower, M16A4, that tends to drive the price down for everyone. And, since the M14 is a niche market (as compared to the AR or AK), the smaller number of makers can (and have to) make a little more per unit. If you're selling thousands of AR15s, you can have a lower profit per unit than you can if you're selling hundreds of M14s.

2. The design requires a lot of machining and detail work that other designs do not.

3. Most of the M14 clones have outstanding fit and finish.

4. In the case of Norinco and Polytech, the import ban has artificially increased the prices due to scarcity.

Mike

Neo-Luddite
February 19, 2008, 10:23 PM
One of the things that makes it pricey is that it's Made in America.

(with some help from Australia, right?)

Great rifle, cost is based on the desire of would-be buyer to have an m1a; really, the 'plain jane' SA m1a has not gone up in cost more than maybe 25% or so over the last 15 years. That isn't so bad. It SEEMS like more relative to the fact that the price of AR's has come down owing to more players in the market.
In short, they KNOW that at a relatively high price point you WILL still buy. You can't get an Armalite, Bushmaster, Oly, Rock River, (etc) M1a

highorder
February 19, 2008, 10:25 PM
they do have great sights.

SpeedAKL
February 19, 2008, 10:55 PM
The SA guns seem to be very well-built, for starters. Never fired one, but most people love shooting them and claim that they are very reliable while also being exceptionally accurate for a "battle rifle". The customizability (is that a word?) also adds to their appeal for many. It's not quite to AR levels yet in that regard, but there are plenty of options to make your gun unique. I'd buy one if I had the cash.

General Geoff
February 19, 2008, 11:13 PM
My M1A is the only firearm in my possession that has never:

-misfired
-failed to fire
-failed to feed
-failed to eject
-broken any part
-left me without a smile on my face. :)



Well worth the price of entry, in my opinion. Some things are worth paying extra for.

Matt-J2
February 19, 2008, 11:21 PM
I'd buy one if I had the cash.

Yep, same here. There's one at the local Scheels, Socom 16 type I believe, for $1500. I handle it every time I go in there, I like it. Too expensive, though. Clearly I'm not the only one who thinks so, either, since it's been there for quite a long time.

metalmachine
February 19, 2008, 11:33 PM
I picked up SA National Match, and a Socom 16. Great fit and finish. The National Match was very hard to find with a 6 month wait in So Cal. They are in pretty good demand here and don't sit around very long. The Socom 16 is easier to find. May need to get a scout for this year.

Onmilo
February 20, 2008, 12:16 AM
For a current Springfield Armory Inc. M1A that uses almost all investment cast parts and a Boyds Walnut stock the question is valid.
Demand must keep the price high because it isn't the wages Sping Ink pays their employees nor is it the high cost of building the rifle.
They could sell these newer models for the same retail as a mid level AR15, about $900.00

Now if you are to compare an early Springfield Armory cast receiver rifle or an LRB forged machined receiver rifle with all USGI parts and a USGI contract barrel to the Sping Ink cast blaster,,,,,here you will understand why some M1A type rifles are expensive and worth every penny.

H2O MAN
February 20, 2008, 12:39 AM
civileng

IF I could get an M1a, any other brands that make a quality gun or SA about the best bargain?

After almost two decades of ARs I sold them all and followed the most common advise given "get a Springfield M1A" -
I purchased a new Scout in 2001.
That was a big learning experience for me, I was one of the few and unlucky to get a problematic rifle - I won't go into the details, but SAI did get it running under warranty. That original Scout was parted out down to the receiver and sold off.

That 3 year learning experience taught me much and my quest to have an ultra reliable M14 lead me to Lee Emerson who in turn lead me to Ron Smith.

Today, all of my M14s are Chinese made Poly Tech or Norinco rifles. Four of them are custom Smith Enterprise builds - the others are original ChiComs.

The two rifles pictured above are the best M14 bargains I have. BUILD DETAILS (http://www.athenswater.com/Crazy_Horse_LITE.htm)

BTW, I pick up my new 6920 tomorrow :evil:

Andrewsky
February 20, 2008, 01:10 AM
For a current Springfield Armory Inc. M1A that uses almost all investment cast parts and a Boyds Walnut stock the question is valid.
Demand must keep the price high because it isn't the wages Sping Ink pays their employees nor is it the high cost of building the rifle.
They could sell these newer models for the same retail as a mid level AR15, about $900.00


How do you know that?

azhunter12
February 20, 2008, 01:14 AM
Because Springfield likes to make lots of money.

Vityaz
February 20, 2008, 01:26 AM
I don't think that necessarily means they could drop the price that much.

kimberfan
February 20, 2008, 01:35 AM
h2o man

what brand of stock is that tan one?

and how much do they go for?

Vityaz
February 20, 2008, 06:03 AM
Looks like a modified USGI synthetic to me.

Ash
February 20, 2008, 07:47 AM
The synthetic stock, at least on the one I had, was a modified USGI. The modification was terrible because the texture they use will chafe your face when firing.

Ash

madcratebuilder
February 20, 2008, 08:18 AM
The SAI comes in several models. Stocks can be aftermarket or usgi. The receiver is cast then machined, bolt is forged, barrels can be usgi, Wilson or Douglas, std or NM. Older models may have more usgi parts than newer models. A usgi op-rod is desirable but I have never seen a SAI cast op-rod fail. I think the cheapest have to go is buy a standard and unitize the GB, ream the FS, then bed the stock. Mine shoots moa when I do my job.

Ash
February 20, 2008, 08:30 AM
Mine was not bad, was very reliable, but accuracy was disappointing. It shot better than my Hakim but not as good as my Garand and about the same as my FAL. It should have been at least as good as the M1. When I down-sized, I had the choice of keeping the FAL or M1a. I still have an FAL.

Of course, these days, FAL's have gotten expensive, too.

Ash

H2O MAN
February 20, 2008, 09:17 AM
kimberfan

h2o man

what brand of stock is that tan one?

and how much do they go for?

That is a USGI synthetic I purchased from FRED's it has the Rigid Rail Modification (RRM).
It has a real tight fit and shoots tight groups - Unfortunately, RRM is no longer available.

Ash

The synthetic stock, at least on the one I had, was a modified USGI.
The modification was terrible because the texture they use will chafe your face when firing.

The finish on these is as smooth as a babies ash.

tinygnat219
February 20, 2008, 09:22 AM
I think it can be summed up pretty well here:

It's Demand for a well-made semi-auto rifle in the good old fashioned .30 Caliber partly fueled by Nostalgia of those that have actually held an M-14, and partly by those that hate the 5.56 NATO round and the AR-15 platform.

silverlance
February 20, 2008, 12:06 PM
the high cost of the m14 is because there is no other semi auto rifle out there that is readily available that can achieve that kind of accuracy using a 30 caliber round.

the PSG1 would be nice but that's not available...
the Walther 2000 would be nice but that's $25000
the Barett M82 A1 would be nice but that's $8500

Coronach
February 20, 2008, 12:40 PM
The AR-10 won't shoot comparably to an M1A? I admit not having any experience with one, but I was under the impression that the AR-10 was at least capable of the same level of accuracy as your standard M14 clone.

Mike

tallpaul
February 20, 2008, 12:51 PM
The ar10 types are more accurate overall from what the guys who have em are experiencing... not as reliable though in a combat setting from what others say. I know several guys with the ar-10's that drive tacks with them. I also know quite a few M1A shooters who can shoot well but it tends to cost alot more to do so. Also scopin the ar is an easier and very sturdy when done.

I'd still like a couple m1a's ;)

I only have a PTR 91 for my semi .308 though. I have shot the others. I would buy any of em really if I had the opportunity and the money at the same time :D The ptr I bought new before the price increases relatively cheap- for once :)

Wes Janson
February 20, 2008, 12:59 PM
the high cost of the m14 is because there is no other semi auto rifle out there that is readily available that can achieve that kind of accuracy using a 30 caliber round.

the PSG1 would be nice but that's not available...
the Walther 2000 would be nice but that's $25000
the Barett M82 A1 would be nice but that's $8500

Err, wot? Of the three you list, only one is a semi-auto .30 cal. Of the others, one is a bolt-action, and the other is a .50 BMG anti-material rifle. The PSG1 is an obscenely expensive and rarely seen rifle that's basically irrelevant.

On the other hand, we currently have, by and large, the M1A, FAL, PTR-91, and the AR-10. Hopefully within another year we'll be able to add the SCAR-H, RFB, and the Massoud to that list. Considering the options though, pretty much any American-made semi-auto .308 is going to run over $1k, and usually closer to $1.5k.

cracked butt
February 20, 2008, 01:51 PM
Springfield can charge pretty much anything they want for their M1A. There are very few players in the M14 business and Sprinfield is the cheapest of the bunch. There's no reason whatsoever for Springfield to charge less unless we are allowed to import $500 Norincos again.

Mk VII
February 20, 2008, 02:30 PM
AS the DoD is highly unlikely to ever sell M14s to the American public, there is no baseline of surplus bargain ones to anchor the price down. Plus a lot of people seem to want one, and are prepared to pay what is demanded for it.

aka108
February 20, 2008, 04:05 PM
Would imagine that product liability insurance is pretty expensive and add more than a buck or two to the final price.

Seafarer12
February 20, 2008, 04:16 PM
Personally I think M-14 are all hype. They arent bad but they arent great. I never cared for them that much. I use to have to qualify with one every year. I think the FAL is a better rifle.

aloharover
February 20, 2008, 04:32 PM
the high cost of the m14 is because there is no other semi auto rifle out there that is readily available that can achieve that kind of accuracy using a 30 caliber round.

Actually you can build an AR that will shoot just as well, for less money, and it will shoot longer between tuneups.

pretty much any American-made semi-auto .308 is going to run over $1k, and usually closer to $1.5k.


Uhm, you can get a NIB DPMS 308 with case, cleaning gear, 2 mags, and a sling for <$900

AS the DoD is highly unlikely to ever sell M14s to the American public, there is no baseline of surplus bargain ones to anchor the price down. Plus a lot of people seem to want one, and are prepared to pay what is demanded for it.

Do a little research on what the Clinton administration did to most of the inservice M14s.

kcmarine
February 20, 2008, 04:32 PM
Basically, it's the rifleman's rifle. It's not as... "intimidating"... to the shooter as perhaps an AR-10 would be. And as far as I know... AR-10s are more expensive and aren't standardized.

H2O MAN
February 20, 2008, 04:33 PM
Seafarer12

Personally I think M-14 are all hype. They arent bad but they arent great.
I never cared for them that much. I use to have to qualify with one every year.

I can personally attest to the fact that the current M14 lives up to the hype.
The current platform benefits from modern stocks, parts and build processes.
More brand new mil spec parts become available just about every month.
The modernized M14 is an ultra reliable, extremely accurate battle rifle.

Seafarer, it's worth another look :cool:

Wibb
February 20, 2008, 04:56 PM
Those are some beautiful weapons H20 Man. My father-in-law has a couple of them and after shooting them many times, I have to say it is one of the finest weapons I have ever had the pleasure of shooting. I keep my eyes open for a good deal on them all the time. The laws of supply and demand can do some crazy things.

Ash
February 20, 2008, 05:11 PM
The Military fiberglass stocks are indeed smooth. What Springfield Armory does to them that gives them that textured finish is what I hate. I'm pretty underwhelmed with the basic M1a. Great, solid rifles but for the money, not nearly accurate enough. Of course, they are as accurate, if not more so, than any real SVD out there and half the price. But, well, perhaps it was mine but it was not just super accurate. It was in the 2 MOA range, sometimes less, sometimes more. Certainly battle accurate, but my CMP Garand was always more accurate, and that disappointed me. When my Imbel FAL was just as accurate, it seemed to me that if I was to get rid of one, the M1a would have to go.

Ash

BozemanMT
February 20, 2008, 05:28 PM
Perfection costs money. :cool:

Andrewsky
February 20, 2008, 05:41 PM
Ash I guess I don't see what the big deal is with the stocks.

I got a nice USGI Birch for $35 and have a $65 USGI Synthetic on the way.

Also SAI has changed the finish on their stocks. The old SOCOMs feel much different than my newer M1As.

ATAShooter
February 20, 2008, 06:06 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ATAShooter/BUY14.jpg

H2O MAN
February 20, 2008, 06:11 PM
Yes Sir !!

http://www.athenswater.com/images/MK14Mod1-small.jpg

Ash
February 20, 2008, 06:14 PM
There is no big deal with the stocks. Replacement stocks work great. I went that route myself. The deal was that the finish that SA put on the USGI fiberglass stocks would rub your cheek raw after only a few rounds down the pipe. I didn't like what they did to it. They would have been far better leaving the stock alone than to apply what ever kind of finish they used.

In any case, I don't have a problem. Heck, I don't mind folks liking the M1a. Mine may have been an aberration. I certainly will not tell others not to buy.

Ash

cpttango30
February 20, 2008, 07:40 PM
It is more on your market than anything else. I have been to two different gun stores about 20 miles apart where I live. They each had a m1a that were exactly the same. Only place wanted $1899 or it the other wanted $1499 for it. The more expensive place also has a 700SPS for $999 and that ugly 700XVR for $1500 the other store have them for $759 and $799. Go figure the more expensive store had plenty of business.

Wes Janson
February 20, 2008, 09:14 PM
Uhm, you can get a NIB DPMS 308 with case, cleaning gear, 2 mags, and a sling for <$900

I'm looking at RSR's 2008 catalogue right now, and DPMS's website, and I see suggested retail of the LR-308 models ranging from $1154 to $2104. $900 before tax might be possible once in a long, long while if you get really lucky somehow, but I'd say is pretty much outside the realm of likelihood. $900 for a used model is more likely.

Neo-Luddite
February 20, 2008, 11:36 PM
When you think...hmmm...the CMP has M1 Garands for 500 bucks---it's not a bad thing to ask hard questions about WHAT you need that M1a to do for you that a Garand can't. Answers will vary, but the platforms are far more similar than they are different (although they DO differ without a doubt). But they are mostly equal in:
-weight and length (full size)
-reliability under adverse condition and (general) durability
-battlefield accuracy <600m (beyond that, .308 may have a technical advantage in the M-1a)
-round-for-round power; (M-1 in .30/06 has a slight edge)
-primary operational characteristics apart from initial loading and charging

The M-1 limits you in capacity and is less refined than its replacement; but it is a true bargain right now. Original examples are (arguably) more durable in terms of receiver longevity than the SA m1a's (and their m1's also). But that debate will go on for at least the next 100 years or longer---and THAT is what makes either choice solid as hell; the SA's come with a lifetime warranty.

ALS
February 21, 2008, 06:00 PM
Quality rifles or guns in general cost money.
Most of the posters before have explained it one way or another why the gun in general is expensive. I bought my SA Super Match back in 1988. It cost me $1800 back then. With inflation that gun would cost in today's money about $3,300.

aloharover
February 26, 2008, 02:46 PM
I'm looking at RSR's 2008 catalogue right now, and DPMS's website, and I see suggested retail of the LR-308 models ranging from $1154 to $2104. $900 before tax might be possible once in a long, long while if you get really lucky somehow, but I'd say is pretty much outside the realm of likelihood. $900 for a used model is more likely

It has nothing to do with luck. The DPMS basic model 308 is $900 before tax all day every day, until DPMS ups their rates. If you are not in Co then I will ship it to your FFL (price includes shipping)

Coronach
February 26, 2008, 02:55 PM
AS the DoD is highly unlikely to ever sell M14s to the American public, there is no baseline of surplus bargain ones to anchor the price down. Plus a lot of people seem to want one, and are prepared to pay what is demanded for it.Do a little research on what the Clinton administration did to most of the inservice M14s.The fools sent a bunch overseas, sent a bunch more to Cap'n Crunch, but the main problem is that they're legally machineguns- we'd never, ever see them, even if they still existed.

Mike

Andrewsky
February 26, 2008, 04:14 PM
They could have just converted the M14s to semi-auto only and sold them like CMP Garands. I have an article written by a military officer on how to do it but please don't make me dig it up.:neener:

Or better yet the government should have just kept the old M14s around.

H2O MAN
February 26, 2008, 04:40 PM
Quote:AS the DoD is highly unlikely to ever sell M14s to the American public, there is no baseline of surplus bargain ones to anchor the price down.
Plus a lot of people seem to want one, and are prepared to pay what is demanded for it.

Quote: Do a little research on what the Clinton administration did to most of the inservice M14s.


Coronach: The fools sent a bunch overseas, sent a bunch more to Cap'n Crunch, but the main
problem is that they're legally machineguns- we'd never, ever see them, even if they still existed.

Mike

True, the M14 will never be retailed by CMP or any other company - not going to happen - never.

On the plus side:

After a huge initial investment of time and money by a few private companies plus the ongoing reinvestment of profits into the M14 platform some in the private sector have successfully produced numerous mil-spec M14 parts that are equal or superior the original USGI design. The M14 is alive and well at 50 years of age :)

This feat was accomplished with the application of modern technology, materials and build techniques. Many of these mil-spec parts are available on the commercial market.

At this rate, a civilian will soon be able to have a semi-auto M14 built with modern mil-spec or better parts that is superior to what the vast majority of our troops are now using... new receivers, barrels, bolts, sights, op rods, gas cylinders, pistons, plugs, triggers housings and stocks are or will be available soon.

The modernized M14 is an outstanding battle proven rifle, they are more accurate, more reliable and much easier
to maintain than the original USGI M14 every was and they are available in several mission specific configurations.


The M14 game is not for the meek. Non of this comes cheap. IMHO, the modernized civilian M14 is worth every penny invested.
If all goes well, my M14K will be made with almost 100% new production mil-spec parts from SEI.
Unless something happens it will be built on a on my last heel stamped Norinco receiver... a new LRB receiver would make me happy :D

lencac
February 26, 2008, 04:59 PM
My national match M1A is like driving a Caddy with an automatic transmission :)
As time goes by, and I see virtually everyone has some sort of AR thing going on. To me they have become passe' But my M1A is still a total pleasure to shoot and show off

Matt-J2
February 26, 2008, 05:05 PM
If an M-14 blew up in his hands and took out his right eye, H20 MAN would just tell you there was something terribly wrong with that eye and the M-14 sacrificed itself to save him from future tragedy. A martyr, if you will.








Ok, just kidding. He sure does love that M-14, though. :D

H2O MAN
February 26, 2008, 05:24 PM
I am passionate about the platform :)

Andrewsky
February 26, 2008, 06:42 PM
I'm very emotional about my M1As.

They are my pride and joy.

H2O MAN
February 26, 2008, 06:42 PM
http://www.athenswater.com/images/TDonM14.jpg

Vityaz
February 26, 2008, 06:55 PM
I'm very emotional about my M1As.

They are my pride and joy.

Andrewsky really does cry every time he sees them.

Andrewsky
February 26, 2008, 06:57 PM
No, no, no. What am I? Gay?

Vityaz
February 26, 2008, 06:59 PM
Just emotional about your M1As.

Coronach
February 26, 2008, 07:07 PM
They could have just converted the M14s to semi-auto only and sold them like CMP Garands. I have an article written by a military officer on how to do it but please don't make me dig it up.Oh, they could convert them to semi, sure, but the receiver was once a machine gun. Under the law, once a machine gun, always a machine gun. The only way for it to happen would be to open up the NFA list again, and I don't think that will happen anytime soon.Or better yet the government should have just kept the old M14s around.Certainly the best answer under the current law. Clinton was a fool.

Mike

Andrewsky
February 26, 2008, 08:07 PM
No, Coronach, I mean the government could easily convert M14 receivers to semi-automatic only and then sell them through the CMP.

Thing is, the military is a bit short on M14s.

750,000 of them just disappeared and no one is real sure where they went.:rolleyes:

AK103K
February 26, 2008, 08:14 PM
No, Coronach, I mean the government could easily convert M14 receivers to semi-automatic only and then sell them through the CMP.
No, Coronach is correct. Even if the converted them, they are still a "machine gun" according to current rules.

H2O MAN
February 26, 2008, 08:20 PM
The M14 will never be retailed by CMP or any other company - not going to happen - never.

Onmilo
February 27, 2008, 12:00 AM
Resistance is futile.
After years of dogged unwillingness to accept the advantages, I broke down.
I now shoot AR15 rifles in competition.
I still own three M1A rifles but two are rarely fired any longer and the third, A short Bush rifle, is used for hunting.

Two of my M1A rifles were bought for well under $1000.00, the Match gun has a bit more invested by me in the upgrades.
All three rifles came with nearly all parts as USGI right from Springfield Armory Inc.

If it costs more for Springfield Inc to have the smallparts investment cast in Brazil or by Caspian in Spain, I am going to rapidly lose faith in the buying power of the all holy American dollar.

kgpcr
February 27, 2008, 12:23 AM
M14's are being used extensively in Afgahnistan by our spec ops people. the old m16 just does not reach out and touch some one like the good old M14. I carried an M16 in combat but would have not complained with an M14 either.

lencac
February 27, 2008, 12:33 AM
Is the M14 plateform perfect...... nope..... but darn near. In 1993 I commissioned Springfield Armory to build me a national match rifle. It took em 3 months and about $1500. That was a ton of money at the time for that rifle but I wanted one. Their service was excellent as was the quality of there finished product. 15 years later, after literally thousands of rounds it still will print sub-MOA groups and hit a 12 inch wide by 18 inch long gong at 600 yrds. virtually everytime I pull the trigger. I've hit gallon water jugs at 800 yrds. I've pulled the scope and used it for CMP shoots. It has run the finest handloaded ammo I can build and the cheapest surplus ammo I can find and it has never bitched, moaned or complained. The only thing it says is "FEED ME !!!! and clean my poopy diaper Daddy" I didn't name it "Bang Ding" for nothing:evil: Is the M14 platform perfect .... nope ...... but darn near.

ducktail
February 27, 2008, 12:59 AM
A few years back I bought a M1A when I was afraid Gore would beat Bush. I have yet to pull the trigger on that gun and my oldest son & I admire it every so often. Right now, that is all the action this gun os going to get. It really makes my 10 year old's day to hold that gun. The AR's are fun for him to hold, but they are not the the M1A. I am a bit worried that this fall I will be even more pleased with this purchase.

Andrewsky
February 27, 2008, 01:01 AM
No, Coronach is correct. Even if the converted them, they are still a "machine gun" according to current rules.

Like I said, there was an article written by an Army officer who outlined how M14s could be sold through the CMP to civilians.

I understand that if a machine gun is registered with the ATF per the National Firearms Act that it can never be taken off the registry, but that's hardly comparable to taking a Military automatic rifle and permanently converting it to semi-automatic before any civilians ever own it. I don't have the article with me now and I cannot find it online.

desertvet762
February 27, 2008, 01:02 AM
They're all I shoot anymore.

I LOVE my LRB M14SA. Look them up as they are the finest of the fine currently availiable and not cheap.

Lucky
February 27, 2008, 01:08 AM
What's that beige plastic stock called

Ignition Override
February 27, 2008, 01:32 AM
General Geoff:

In contrast to this "Ferrari" of the semi-auto. rifle category, which semi-rifle was the least reliable for you (other than just a magazine problem), assuming no prior abuse etc?

Coronach
February 27, 2008, 01:43 AM
Like I said, there was an article written by an Army officer who outlined how M14s could be sold through the CMP to civilians.

I understand that if a machine gun is registered with the ATF per the National Firearms Act that it can never be taken off the registry, but that's hardly comparable to taking a Military automatic rifle and permanently converting it to semi-automatic before any civilians ever own it. I don't have the article with me now and I cannot find it online.According to the ATF it is exactly comparable. Or, rather, is not a case of the rifle "having been on" any list. It is a matter of it having been a firearm capable of full auto fire, and now you're attempting to either add it to the list for sale to civvies (which is not possible since the list is closed) or attempting to make it semi-auto and sell it to civvies (which is not possible because of the "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" rule). The only ways to do this are:

1. Repeal the 1934 law regulating machine guns
2. Repeal the 1986 law closing the registry
3. Rescind the "once a machinegun..." rule.

Any tinkering the Army might do may well make it semi-auto only, but it still won't make it legal to sell.

Mike

Andrewsky
February 27, 2008, 01:51 AM
According to the ATF it is exactly comparable. Or, rather, is not a case of the rifle "having been on" any list. It is a matter of it having been a firearm capable of full auto fire, and now you're attempting to either add it to the list for sale to civvies (which is not possible since the list is closed) or attempting to make it semi-auto and sell it to civvies (which is not possible because of the "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" rule). The only ways to do this are:

1. Repeal the 1934 law regulating machine guns
2. Repeal the 1986 law closing the registry
3. Rescind the "once a machinegun..." rule.

Any tinkering the Army might do may well make it semi-auto only, but it still won't make it legal to sell.

Mike

What it comes down to is whether or not the President wants to sell M14s to civilians, since he controls the ATF. And we all know how Clinton felt about that.

Now say someone really pro-gun was elected, M14s with their selector lugs cut off could be sold through the CMP without violating the NFA of 1934 or the FOPA of 1986.

Neither of those two laws actually says "once an mg, always an mg," correct?

Sven
February 27, 2008, 02:10 AM
OK most that could be said has been said already, but this thread is suffering from too few photos.

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/gallery/albums/m1a/its_here.sized.jpg


100 yard group off a sandbag, iron sights, no break in....

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/gallery/albums/m1a/100_yards.jpg


In summary, it's worth it... to me. Your milage may vary.... :)

Sven
February 27, 2008, 02:20 AM
Oh yeah... and it has a nice lineage...

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/gallery/albums/m1a/pair_side.sized.jpg

Wes Janson
February 27, 2008, 02:50 AM
No, no, no. What am I? Gay?

I thought the M14/M1A was a classy lady?

It has nothing to do with luck. The DPMS basic model 308 is $900 before tax all day every day, until DPMS ups their rates. If you are not in Co then I will ship it to your FFL (price includes shipping)

I work for a dealer; I know cost on it. However, most people do not have an FFL, and you're generally not going to find that rifle on a store shelf at that price. While we could debate the influence of internet sales on traditional brick-and-mortar gunshops, my point is that it's completely unreasonable to expect to find it for that price in an average shop. $1200 is MSRP, and most stores will be selling it in that vicinity.

Andrewsky
February 27, 2008, 02:54 AM
I thought the M14/M1A was a classy lady?


They are.

But I certainly don't cry!

H2O MAN
February 27, 2008, 08:36 AM
Sven OK most that could be said has been said already, but this thread is suffering from too few photos.Good point Sven.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/EBRs020407%20003.jpg

http://www.athenswater.com/images/PJwithMK14SEI.jpg

Coronach
February 27, 2008, 11:25 AM
What it comes down to is whether or not the President wants to sell M14s to civilians, since he controls the ATF. And we all know how Clinton felt about that.

Now say someone really pro-gun was elected, M14s with their selector lugs cut off could be sold through the CMP without violating the NFA of 1934 or the FOPA of 1986.

Neither of those two laws actually says "once an mg, always an mg," correct?IIRC, it is an executive order or ATF "ruling". So yes, the President probably could do it at the stroke of a pen. However, it has nothing to do with what the Army or anyone else in .mil can do. The legislature could do it as well with a bill.

Mike

Andrewsky
February 27, 2008, 11:37 AM
Well I believe Congress stopped the destruction of M14s and created the CMP at the same time, correct?

neal7250
February 27, 2008, 11:43 AM
What is the going rate for a nice M-14 Springfield?

Mac Attack
February 27, 2008, 11:55 AM
I understand the "Once a MG always a MG" deal. Couldn't the government just parted out the rifles, destroyed the receivers and selectors and then give the parts to the CMP. The CMP could have purchased SA receivers, reassembled legal rifles and then sold them to the public. That would have been better than to have sent them to the breakers. Stupid Clinton! I hope Hilary doesn't make it into office because we most likely will see the same type of thing again.

My local gunshop had an excellent Chicom M1A that sold for $600. I just missed it by a few hours otherwise that baby would have been mine. I always wanted a M1A but could never afford one and with the cost of ammo nowadays, I most likely will not own one anytime soon.

H2O MAN
February 27, 2008, 12:06 PM
Mac Attack Couldn't the government just parted out the rifles, destroyed the receivers and selectors and then give the parts to the CMP.

I would not encourage the destruction of any additional USGI M14s.

Let the private sector supply the parts needed to keep the USGI M14s
and civilian owned M14 type rifles running indefinitely.

lencac
February 27, 2008, 12:44 PM
Ok, pic of my NM M1A1. I know, I know, it suffers from not being newvous waveous but 15 years ago this is how it was done.
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1787/img3184vj3.jpg

Andrewsky
February 27, 2008, 01:25 PM
Of course they could have Mac Attack. But the president, who controls the military and the ATF was very much against civilian ownership of firearms, especially military-style weapons.

K3
February 27, 2008, 01:33 PM
Ok, pic of my NM M1A1. I know, I know, it suffers from not being newvous waveous but 15 years ago this is how it was done.
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1787/img3184vj3.jpg

Pretty rifle. IMO, that's how it still should be done. :)

BattleChimp Potemkin
February 27, 2008, 01:34 PM
It always seems that weapons used or in use (similar pattern weapons, not exact) by our military always seem to be very expensive when they are made in the USA. 1911s, Thompsons, Springfield 1903, AR-15s, M14, Garand, etc... Always seem to be much more than what seems equitable (dont give me that fit and finish junk :)) A well constructed firearms should not cost 3 times its materials cost). A garand is a fine weapon, dont get me wrong, but Im not going to shell out 1000+ dollars for a decent one. Import ban weapons? My polytech M1A1 does wonderful, especially when I bought a USGI bolt for it. 500+150 bolt= 650. It is as accurate as the American made equivalent, but for lots less. I think that everyone should have access to these wonderful weapons, not just those who are rich or retired (took it with them after "the war"). Any thoughts/flames :).

mordechaianiliewicz
February 27, 2008, 01:38 PM
Cost of parts and materiel to make it. Cost of labour. Shipping it. Not easy to do.

dpms7625
February 28, 2008, 12:29 AM
I have a Springfield m1a s/s national this is one of my favorite to shoot this gun is like the door on a 70s caddy built like a tank worth every penny great gun Springfield is great when you have a problem if you get one keep in mind what the gun was designed for and you wont be disappointed.

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