So i messed up somewhere


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Wilburt
February 19, 2008, 10:42 PM
So there i was, at the range I was happy as a school boy (the range will do that to you). I had brought 4 different recipes of 50 rounds. they were all the same except different powder variations.

200 gr lswc h&g 68
1.241 OAL
.469-.470 taper crimp
mixed brass
rem prime
and several powder combos

They all fired fine out of my wilson cqb. i picked the 2 combos i liked best of the day which was 3.8 and 4.0 gr VVN310 and decided to run production on it. They next week i went out and tried to put 50 of each through my kimber. Much to my dismay after about 3 mags i started to run into problems. The slide failed to return fully. i little nudge had to be applied to seat the round fully into the chamber. the more i shot the worse it got.

I became somewhat bewildered. I took the gun apart and ran a bore snake through it and a couple shot fine but then the same old problem. After going home i started to analize everything. i check the bullets i was using and all of then where a diameter of .452 like they were supposed to be. I then put some of the rounds into my wilson and kimber (respectively left and right). barrel to gage them and these were the results:

After futher examination i noticed that after cleaning the chamber, which was very dirty, the rounds set just fine. SO........ what is causing my chamber to get so dirty after a few mags to not accept the rounds anymore? I didn't change my dies at all and the previous batch had no problems in the wilson.

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Snapping Twig
February 20, 2008, 03:45 AM
How many rounds have you shot through your Kimber?

The chambers on Kimbers are tight, so you may need to seat your bullets a little deeper.

I cast a 230g TC for mine and while the OAL is good for every other ACP, every so often one sticks on the way in to chamber and I have to forcefully eject it.

I seat that bullet deeper and now all's well.

Kimber's NEED 500 rounds to break in with a complete cleaning every 100 round or so.

redneck2
February 20, 2008, 07:39 AM
what is causing my chamber to get so dirty after a few mags to not accept the rounds anymore?

You have to build enough pressure and heat to help the powder burn totally. If your load is on the low side, it wont' burn as cleanly.

May sound simple, but make sure your slide is lightly lubed. My Springfield Stainless won't cycle with minimum loads. Hasn't been fully broken in yet.

dmftoy1
February 20, 2008, 07:59 AM
You said "production run" so I'm curious what kind of machine you're loading on? I had a similiar problem when I first got my 650 in that I was in a rush to set it up (think christmas and a small child! :) ) and hadn't snugged down the lock ring on the seating die and my rounds go slightly longer as the session went on. (we're talking .010) I had EXACTLY the problem you described, and it wasn't apparent to me from looking . ..I had to get out the mic and measure rounds from the first and last batches. I'm not saying this is your problem, just throwing it out there.

Have a good one,
Dave

345 DeSoto
February 20, 2008, 08:38 AM
You MIGHT be loading too light. If the charge doesn't expand the case enough, you could be getting a slight amount of residue in the chamber from leakage around the case. The very slight residue build-up would be cumulative and cause the rounds to not fully seat...FWIW...

Otto
February 20, 2008, 09:30 AM
4.0 gr VVN310 behind 200 gr LSWC is the maximum charge according to Vihtavuori.
I would suggest using a case gauge to make sure your cartridges are meeting SAAMI specifications. If they all pass the gauge test then I would start by making small adjustments to the COL. If that doesn't work, I would look at the gun and magazine.

Eljay
February 20, 2008, 01:28 PM
You don't happen to have any A-MERC cases in your lot of brass, they will do what you discribe.

rcmodel
February 20, 2008, 01:44 PM
I'm guessing here, but:
Quite simply, I think your Wilson Combat gun has been throated for SWC & TC bullets, and your Kimber Match barrel hasn't.

I think if you look at the two barrels side-by-side, I think you will see a longer "Leade" where the chamber transitions into the rifling in the Wilson barrel.

I think your SWC H&G 68 bullets are hanging up in the rifling on the bullets sharp shoulder driving band after fouling starts to build up.

You have two choices to stop it.
#1 Have the Kimber barrel throated for SWC bullets.
#2 Seat the bullets deeper in the case so they will chamber fully without running into the rifling.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Wilburt
February 20, 2008, 02:51 PM
otto and desoto.... While VVN310 website says they recomed 3.7-4.0 gr it is a very light load. I know wilson recomends and uses 4.5 gr vvn310 to shoot there test loads. So while 4.0 might be max i guess it is plausable it is too light and not burning as clean.

I have put about 1000 rounds through the kimber and i did follow the recomended breakin and cleaning during that time. I am using an LNL and i do use a caliper during various stages to make sure my oal is consistant through the entire loading process. But that is b/c of simlar mistakes i made by not doing so in previous times. i'm not using a-merc cases either.

I guess i will try a warmer charge in some and also change the oal in a few batches to see if that fixes the problem. I guess i thought that 1.240 was short for the H&G 68 so i did want to go any shorter. Haveing the Kimber barrel throated for SWC bullets will be a last resort. i want to make sure it's not OE (operator error) first.

Shoney
February 20, 2008, 03:14 PM
Wilbert
Try one or the other sepeerately, not together. Shortening the OAL will increase pressure. If you shorten OAL and up the charge at the same time, it could lead to over pressure.

My experiences are that the shortened OAL will solve a lot of the chambering problems in most autos.

Texastbird
February 20, 2008, 03:23 PM
I run my 45s through the Lee FCD and it post sizes the case so it will feed reliably in my Colt that has a tight chamber. Shortening the OAL didn't help in my situation, but the factory crimp die did the trick.

The Bushmaster
February 20, 2008, 03:54 PM
Go to a cleaner burning powder that leaves less residue like W-231 and try it again...

Walkalong
February 20, 2008, 05:12 PM
I shoot 4.6 Grs N310 with a Berry's 185 Gr SWC, 4.4 Grs N310 with a Ranier or Hornady 200 Gr SWC, and 4.5 Grs N310 with a Berry's 200 Gr HP and they all burn super clean with light recoil and excellent accuracy. Oh yea, from a Wilson and a STI barrel.

The old Vihtavuori manual is a little more liberal with it's charge weights than the online data. ;)

I do believe O.A.L. and bullet style is a big part of the problem along with powder possibly not burning completely, although N310 is extremely clean burning unless it's pressure is real low.

Vihtavuori online data link. (http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/pdfs/Handgun-Reloading-Data-2006.pdf) N310 is VERY fast. Be carefull working up a load. Go .1 grain at a time.

These loads are safe in my guns with my load procedure. Reduce 10% or better to start.

Ceemack
February 20, 2008, 05:54 PM
I'm not sure you need to go any shorter. If the rounds chambered correctly after the chamber had been cleaned, OAL is not the issue.

You might try one of the more mainstream .45 ACP powders, like Bullseye or 231. 700X would also be a good choice--isn't exactly mainstream, but it's clean and comes in half-pound cans. Data for these powders are easily available, so you won't have to rely on one source that may or may not be showing you the true maximum. If you get good results with one of these powders, you'll know you probably weren't buring the VV charges completely.

Wilburt
February 20, 2008, 09:17 PM
I will work up some heavier VVn310 loads at .1 gr incriments keeping the same oal and also try using some differant powders too. Will be going to the range on friday so i'll let you know how it turns out. I know not to change oal without droping the charge a bit. safety first.

Wilburt
March 2, 2008, 01:01 PM
well after 3 trips to the range i fixed it. First i tried heavier VV loads and some BE loads. i found that that dirty chamber not to be the sole culprit as it was worse this time. Next i played with the OAL and i crimped and seated in diferrant operations on my rock chucker. I made 25 each of OAL 1.230, 1.235, 1.240, and 1.245. ALL worked with no problems. So i think i narrowed it down to to much crimp and shaved lead maybe. not sure but it worked now. So then i when back to the ol' LNL AP (i just got my TC Only Die from hornady) I made some at 1.245. All worked.

Also the TC die from hornady takes a bit of TLC or i found it will get caught and seat your rounds farther down wich sucks. I think i got the hang of it now.

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