"Will a .45ACP kill a Grizzly?"


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HHank
February 22, 2008, 01:57 PM
Hey Class! My wife and a do a lot of hikeing in the MetroParks (some of which can be pretty "wild"). While there are no grizzly's there (that we know of) there are some black bears, bands of coyotes, herds of deer, etc. Anyway, the question came up that in a "tight" (at close range) how effective do you think a semi-auto .45 would be at stopping an angry bears charge? I own both .357 and .44 magnum revolvers and I know that they may be effective, but I carry a Colt .45 Govt. model (1991) that rides in a Bianchi "paddle" holster. It seems to me from firing it often that anything standing in front of it after it discharges should be off on a "celestial" ride for sure. I cannot carry a .357 or .44 magnum on these hikes. What do you think? What ammo should be used? As far as the legality of carrying such weapons in the parks, as the saying goes "I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. Thanks

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WOODROW
February 22, 2008, 02:12 PM
I'm no expert when it comes to bears but I don't think they make any .45 acp round that would be overly effective on a 'angry charging" bear. My best advice would be at least a .44 mag. In the state of Indiana you can now carry concealed on, or in, any state park,or DNR property as long as you have a CCW permit. Good luck!!

Ske1etor
February 22, 2008, 02:18 PM
I wouldn't trust anything less than a 105mm howitzer to stop an angry charging bear. I would stick with a .44mag just to be sure (I understand that you said that you can't carry a .44 but why would you ask this question if you aren't willing to change firearms anyway?)

MT GUNNY
February 22, 2008, 02:24 PM
During our last hunting season here in MT a guy emptied his 45 in a attacking
grizzly. He survived without a scratch, He notified MTfish and game They tracked the bear and gave up search after two days. They said ther was blood pools where the bear had stoped to rest, less with every stop.

nbkky71
February 22, 2008, 02:26 PM
A .45ACP might kill a bear with proper shot placement. However, it wouldn't consider it a reliable 'bear stopping' caliber.

If .45ACP is your only choice in caliber, be sure to choose a brand of ammunition that will maximize penetration.

brickeyee
February 22, 2008, 02:29 PM
The correct question is "Will a .45 ACP kill a grizzly before it can kill me?"

The answer is 'Not reliably'.

You are more than welcome to undertake the test though.

Mainsail
February 22, 2008, 02:30 PM
When you signed up there was a place where you could provide a location where you live. Having that information would help others to answer your question.

bdjansen
February 22, 2008, 02:33 PM
Isn't there some kind of pepper spray made for grizzly bears that is 100 effective?

I don't think a 45 would be very good at stopping a grizzly. It probably could be done but you'd have to make the shot of a lifetime.

As for black bears, I don't think they attack people. I think short of alaska your biggest danger when hiking is still people. If your hiking somewhere where there is snakes you could carry some shotshell in a 38. I hate snakes.

bdjansen
February 22, 2008, 02:35 PM
Also just so you know, there are no guns alowed on national parks.

highorder
February 22, 2008, 02:36 PM
Isn't there some kind of pepper spray made for grizzly bears that is 100 effective?

thats a joke, right? :)

nothing is 100%, and a grizzly bear might just thank you for the hot sauce. :)

30-06 lover
February 22, 2008, 02:56 PM
Sure a 45 ACP can stop a bear charge, so will a 22 short so long as the bear is hit just right, but we are talking about a target smaller than a golf ball and moving all over the place at short range while you are hopped up on adrenaline.

I suggest that you carry bear spray. It covers a much larger area than .45 and is reported to be just as if not more effective at stopping a charge than a handgun, but nothing is 100%.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0047644228701a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=bear+spray&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=bear+spray&noImage=0

ClarkEMyers
February 22, 2008, 03:02 PM
Wilson Combat offers a 1911 in .460 Rowland which gives better odds in the 1911 platform.

Assuming arguendo that a 1911 in .45 Auto might actually be capable of the task then I would believe only in hands more skilled than mine - I'd expect people who could consistently stop a charging bear with a 1911 to be fairly well known if only within limited circles. Jeff Cooper writes of the best field shot he ever saw - square between the eyes and into the brain on a charging buffalo with a .470 - works every time but it's not easy to make.

Then too there was the man who took a tamping rod through his head and survived - nothing hand held is 100%.

I've used a High Standard Derringer in .22 rimfire magnum solid for slaughter - never had a failure with a confined animal - don't plan to use it in the field just because a brain shot with a .22 has done well by me in the past.

CountGlockula
February 22, 2008, 03:11 PM
10mm my friend.

brighamr
February 22, 2008, 03:21 PM
Personal Defense TV - Charging Bear episode 34, air date 11/21/07

"Back up, and make noise first"

"Aim for the middle of the eye nose area. Use the nose as your aim point."

"I would always carry a rifle first as primary defense, barring that a shotgun, and lastly my handgun"

"Heavy hard cast bullets with as much penetration as you can get"

If you can only carry a handgun, I'd opt for a 44 mag.

Cosmoline
February 22, 2008, 03:25 PM
.45 ACP bullets are just too stumpy. Their SD is too low as is their velocity, which makes perfect sense given that they were designed for two legged critters from the start. If you want a .45 with more penetration you need a .45 Colt loaded hot and heavy with a hardcast slug in it.

JohnnyMac
February 22, 2008, 03:50 PM
I've shot a grizzly bear with a 10mm from a range of about 15 feet. The first two shots it didn't flinch (I'm 99% sure I hit it). The next shot it looked like it was stung by a bee and by the 4th shot it started to run away from me. After the 7th it was out of sight but I'll put it this way, if that bear wanted to have it's way with me it would have. As a result I've switched to a 460S&W.

I've had literally hundreds of encounters with bears (black and grizzly) and if I had a choice between pepper spray and a 45acp I would take the pepper spray. Ya if you hit that bear in the eye with a 45acp you might kill it but lets be realistic, you're not going to be able to hit that bear in the eye.

Considering how often this has been debated I just wonder if people asking if a 45 (or other small pistol caliber) will kill a bear are just trying to stir the pot.

Willis
February 22, 2008, 03:52 PM
You can kill a "griz" with any pistol or rifle, but if you want him to die before you do, then get the biggest thing you can carry. I carry the 454. A big rifle would be better, but it is harder to carry than the Ruger Alaskan.

Willis

jimmyjackjones
February 22, 2008, 04:21 PM
I think this has been discussed on every gun forum over and over.

sqlbullet
February 22, 2008, 04:28 PM
With regard to the pepper spray...

It seems to me a few years ago there was a notice that hikers should wear little bells and carry pepper spray. The idea was that the tinkling sound would ensure you didn't startle a bear, and the pepper spray would ward it off if needed.

They also said you should be familiar with bear sign, or scat. It has bells in it and smells like pepper spray:-)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Treo
February 22, 2008, 04:44 PM
As far as the legality of carrying such weapons in the parks, as the saying goes "I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. Thanks

I thought we didn't speculate on or discuss illegal actions on THR

That said I live in Colorado and I frequently run into Black Bears. In all the times this has happened the bears have been more anxious to get away from me than I was from them. pepper spray would be a better ( and legal ) option.

akraven
February 22, 2008, 04:55 PM
JohnnyMac
What bullet and load were you using in the 10mm when you shot that griz?
Just curious. Thank you. akraven

jgo296
February 22, 2008, 04:58 PM
head head with fmj will kill a grizzly or when they roar a shot the hits the base of brain will drop it too

akraven
February 22, 2008, 04:58 PM
JohnnyMac
What bullet and load were you using in the 10mm when you shot that griz?
Just curious. Thank you. akraven

akraven
February 22, 2008, 05:01 PM
sorry double post

jgo296
February 22, 2008, 05:03 PM
head head with fmj will kill a grizzly or when they roar a shot the hits the base of brain will drop it too

A man with a gun!
February 22, 2008, 05:12 PM
The .45 acp. could still be useful for putting yourself out of your misery after the attack.

Never was too impressed with the range on bear spray. - Do you have any idea how quickly a charging bear can cover 15-20 feet?

I favor a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs in bear country..

DougDubya
February 22, 2008, 05:13 PM
Maybe from a Thompson SMG...

highorder
February 22, 2008, 05:14 PM
With regard to the pepper spray...

It seems to me a few years ago there was a notice that hikers should wear little bells and carry pepper spray. The idea was that the tinkling sound would ensure you didn't startle a bear, and the pepper spray would ward it off if needed.

They also said you should be familiar with bear sign, or scat. It has bells in it and smells like pepper spray:-)


haha, I was going to post something similar....

DFW1911
February 22, 2008, 05:56 PM
If you can only carry a handgun, I'd opt for a 44 mag. That's what I carry as a backup to a shotgun.

RE: bells and sprays, a couple of years ago we took a guy with us on our annual Alaska adventure who was convinced he'd be okay with, you guessed it, bells and bear spray.

Day one that was his defense set up. It rained like crazy, which caused him some concern about the effectiveness of A) a bear hearing the bells and B) his spray even hitting the bear in the downpour.

Then we saw one of the "great beasts" (Coastal Brown)- not huge, probably 800lbs or so. My buddy asked Mr. Bells and Pepper "...still think you have the right bear defense...?"

Day two Mr. Bells and Pepper carried a short-barrel shot gun and a .357 to the tune of "I can't believe how big that thing was...Did you see how big that thing was...Man, that thing was big!!!"

Nothing like a little dose of reality to test your ideology on ecology!!!

Thanks,
DFW1911

JohnnyMac
February 22, 2008, 05:59 PM
AKRAVEN - I was using 200gr FMJ with 8.3 grains of Longshot. They were fired out of a G20 standard length barrel.

akraven
February 22, 2008, 06:02 PM
Thanks JohnnyMac just curious. Coastal brown or interior grizz?
akraven

RP88
February 22, 2008, 06:19 PM
I'd take a 9mm hi-cap gun like a Glock over a .45ACP., and just unload into its underside and face. IMO, possibly hitting it 17 times beats hitting it 6 times then realizing that you need a couple seconds between reloading and getting eaten.

1911Tuner
February 22, 2008, 06:32 PM
Sure. A .22 will kill a Tyrannosaur if you hit him in the right spot. The problem isn't with killing him as much as it is in making him understand that he's been killed.

It's more a matter of: "Will this thing die before it finishes ripping my arms and legs off?"


Fortunately, most bears...MOST bears...are as anxious to avoid us as we are to avoid them. This is not to be counted on, however. There are a good many bears who never read the books written by bear experts.

For people who ask about such things as shooting large bears with a pistol, my usual recommendation is to grind the slights down flush and do a radical melt job on the gun so that...after you've shot the bear...it won't hurt so bad when he takes it away from you and sticks it where the sun don't shine.

JohnnyMac
February 22, 2008, 06:32 PM
AKRAVEN - It was an interior grizzly, probably a 2 or 3 year old. Not huge but still big enough to eat and crap me out (or as tuner would say shove my plastic pistol where the sun don't shine).

HM2PAC
February 22, 2008, 06:33 PM
In an auto-loader I would not want less than 10mm or 460 Rowland. IMHO .45ACP or 9mm is too risky. Not a risk I'll take.

Personally I would prefer .45LC or .44RM as a minimum revolver round.

As a preference in a perfect world, the .375H&H in a nice compact rifle with irons is about perfect.

The grizzly is a monster of an animal. Centerfire rifle rounds have been known to ricochet off of the forehead or disintegrate on the shoulder. Big bears can go 1200+ lbs, and they are fast. Carry enough gun. Leave yourself the last round.

bdjansen
February 22, 2008, 06:37 PM
Quote:
Isn't there some kind of pepper spray made for grizzly bears that is 100 effective?

thats a joke, right?

nothing is 100%, and a grizzly bear might just thank you for the hot sauce.

No, not a joke. :rolleyes: I like guns as much as the next guy here but it doesn't mean that their always the best solution.

You are right. Nothing is 100%. Not sure where I read it. I shouldn't have posted that.

Here are examples of bear spray (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0054111229010a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH-perf&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=bear+pepper+spray&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=bear+pepper+spray&noImage=0&rid=0180101070502&cmCat=perf&cm_ven=performics&cm_cat=yahoo_non_brand&cm_pla=hunt_hunt_accessories&cm_ite=bear%20pepper%20spray&OVMTC=standard&OVADID=8163524522&OVKEY=bear%20pepper%20spray&OVKWID=73999240522&OVRAW=bear%20pepper%20spray&_requestid=59676).

And a link to a PDF (http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/inc/PM-MP/visit/visit12a_e.pdf) about using it.

I'd carry that stuff before I carried anything under a 44 mag.

Being attacked by a bear is going to be a pretty low risk in the lower 48 states. But it is your butt on the line. Look at the statistics and all your defensive options and make a personal decision about how much space you want to leave in your pack for this stuff.

Try not to shoot any bears. They are beautiful creatures. :)

1911Tuner
February 22, 2008, 06:45 PM
There's an old joke, told on the heels of an expert's advice to wear little jingle bells on shoes and carry pepper spray for bear defense...the bells let'em know ahead of time that you're there so they can run away...and pepper spray for those that don't run away and hide.

The joke was that recent bear droppings were discovered that contained little jingle bells and smelled like pepper.

You may draw your own conclusions...

bluez4u
February 22, 2008, 06:50 PM
what about the velocity of a .40?

RP88
February 22, 2008, 07:08 PM
"...despite their massive, bulky build, Brown Bears can reach speeds up to 35 MPH for short periods of time..."

"...weigh up to 700 kilograms (over 1500 pounds)..."

okay, so basically, you're shooting at a Sedan or small truck. If it moves that fast, without standing up or roaring at you (as in charging at you), you'd probably be lucky to get your gun out of the holster in time.

HM2PAC
February 22, 2008, 07:34 PM
RP88 wrote:
okay, so basically, you're shooting at a Sedan or small truck. If it moves that fast, without standing up or roaring at you (as in charging at you), you'd probably be lucky to get your gun out of the holster in time.

Scary, eh?

Hopefully the bells on your shoes will ring while you are in mid-air.

Remember, you don't have to outrun the bear. You do have to outrun your buddy.

DougDubya
February 22, 2008, 08:19 PM
The only "handgun" I'd carry for bear would be a 10 gauge AOW shotgun. There's a reason why the Ithaca 10 gauge autoloader was called the "roadblocker."

It was meant to shoot machines as large as a bear and stop them.

Although, if limited to pepper spray, I'd hose my hiking partner, and while he was thrashing and behaving like wounded prey, I'd high tail out of there and arrange for flowers for his relatives.

1911Tuner
February 22, 2008, 08:43 PM
I'd hose my hiking partner, and while he was thrashing and behaving like wounded prey,

Uh...Ain't that a little cold?

No need to be that proactive in your bud's demise. Just pick a partner that you know you can outrun.

bdjansen
February 22, 2008, 10:05 PM
I know you guys make fun of the bells on the feet idea but joking aside it is a good idea to make some noise while you hike. Just a normal conversation or something will be fine. Bears don't like being surprised.

berkbw
February 22, 2008, 10:12 PM
You know, this is all nice stuff - in print. In REALITY - when the mother bear exits her lair, anything/anyone is subject to a quick death. She doesn't care, will not be frightened, and will not relent.

If you are thinking of going into bear country in the spring - early summer, PLEASE check with your local officials who know about where and when you should stay clear.
b-

Seven For Sure
February 22, 2008, 10:20 PM
I'm always amazed that bear vs. man comes up a lot on the internet. Some of us are in good shape and get out a lot. Most of us don't fit in that catagory. Then the percentage of those of us that do get out a lot who actually have to worry about a bear or mtn. lion attack is even smaller. I think I'd rather have 16 rds. of DT 200 gr. bear tooth's from a G20 with a backup mag than a 6 shot 44 mag. I'd definately take a 12 guage with 000 up front and a few slugs behind if I was really worried. I used to live in Western Montana and actually had to worry about such things. I only have to worry about two legged predators now unfortunately. I'd rather go down to a bear than a crackhead anyday.

Albatross
February 22, 2008, 10:21 PM
Couple young men around here (Alaska) recently killed a brown bear with a 9mm after they dropped their shotgun in the river.

Popular choice is the 10mm, but bear spray is probably more useful more often.

Everyone in these threads always imagines the bears as monster killing machines bent on getting fresh human flesh. People imagine extremely dynamic 100% enraged charges, but after experiencing literally 100's of bear encounters I can assure you this is a rare occurrence.

What usually happens is the bear becomes curious of you and casually approaches then initial investigation turns into an act of predation. Which is why pepper spray is the way to go as it can be used to prevent an attack from actually occurring.

/The danger of bears is exaggerated. For some perspective: People hunt them with bows regularly.

greener
February 22, 2008, 10:34 PM
In the interest of science and advancing knowledge, someone should start with black bears and work their way up the size and ornery chain. Report the date you intend to look for an angry bear and then report the results. I guess if there is no results report, then we could guess the answer.

I'd be happy to do it, but I've got these, er, prior appointments.:D

SevenŠ
February 22, 2008, 11:51 PM
I'd take a 9mm hi-cap gun like a Glock over a .45ACP., and just unload into its underside and face. IMO, possibly hitting it 17 times beats hitting it 6 times then realizing that you need a couple seconds between reloading and getting eaten.

Absolutely! Or better yet, a Glock in .45ACP! The mere sight would make a bear piss itself and faint. Thus, allowing you to escape without ever firing a shot.

DougDubya
February 23, 2008, 12:35 AM
Quote:
I'd hose my hiking partner, and while he was thrashing and behaving like wounded prey,
Uh...Ain't that a little cold?

No need to be that proactive in your bud's demise. Just pick a partner that you know you can outrun.

Sorry. That was the low road in me talking.

Guess I'd better call up Mayor Daley and tell him the Alaskan hike's off...
And I got wasabe spray too.

1911Tuner
February 23, 2008, 12:35 AM
/The danger of bears is exaggerated. For some perspective: People hunt them with bows regularly.

Having been on the wicked end of a Brown's sudden charge from about 50-60 yards, I can offer a little perspective on that.

I was on a Brown hunt...had me a nice M-70 in .338 Mag. When the thing broke cover, I hit him solidly twice and he never even broke his stride. Knowing better than to turn and run, I was bolting the third round into the rifle when he dropped and knocked me elbows over appetite as he skidded to a stop. Good thing that he knocked me 10 feet away from him because he still had enough fight left in him to do me a world of hurt during the estimated 15 seconds that it took him to expire while I crab-crawled backward out of his way.

Ya had to be there, I guess...

30 years later, I still dream about it once in a while.

steelyblue
February 23, 2008, 12:56 AM
I like the spraying the buddy idea. I would also pour a little honey on him too, just to make sure he doesn't pass him up for the tastier treat!!!

M47 Dragon
February 23, 2008, 12:59 AM
This is my only bear story:

Went camping with my buddy up in the Sierra Nevada range years ago. We hiked into the woods about 7 or 8 miles and found a great little place to set up camp - 100 yards or so off of the path we were hiking, a gentle downslope all the way - lead to a cliff overlooking a deep gorge with a stream running way down below. It was beautiful!

Woke up the next morning and tried to get a campfire going. One of us noticed the bear walking along that slope about 50 or 60 yards away. He was walking parallel to us, not toward us. Something made him look our way, and he turned straight toward us. He was still going slow. My buddy, a cop, starts ruffling through his pack looking for his 9mm and I start work on getting my 12 gauge to the ready. It was strapped to my pack, so I had to take my eyes off the bear momentarily to free the shotgun. My friend is cursing under his breath because he can't find his gun. I finally free my shotgun, which has alternating 000 buck and slugs in the tube, and look back up at the bear. He wasn't charging, but he wasn't going slow anymore either... kinda rumbling toward us. We had nowhere to go except over the cliff.

This is a true story... I have a witness!

I racked the shotgun and the bear stopped on a dime. He was about 20 yards away. He stopped, looked at us, and then turned and ran back the way he came.

We both had a shot of Jack Daniels at breakfast to calm our nerves, and to this day we can tell a good bear story about a beast that knew what the sound of a racking shotgun meant.

ETCss Phil McCrackin
February 23, 2008, 01:05 AM
I know this has been beat to death and the only real use for a sidearm against griz is if your .338 Win Mag has a problem. But would you really be that underarmed with 200 grain hard cast SWC's loaded up to +P levels?

greenmtnguy
February 23, 2008, 01:16 AM
I think that the 45 ACP +P *might* work, but you'd have to be very very quick - the trick would be to shove your hand down his mouth with the gun pointed up at the back of his throat and squeeze the trigger as fast as you can, hoping that the gun doesn't jam and he dies before he bites your arm off...

(sorry, couldn't resist)
;-)

jimbob86
February 23, 2008, 01:28 AM
Also just so you know, there are no guns alowed on national parks.

This is supposed to be changing soon- story at "Call me Ahab".

A man with a gun!
February 23, 2008, 08:42 AM
Keep in mind that there are two types of bear attacks. Defensive and offensive. Bells can lead to an offensive bear attack by attracting attention to yourself. In Yellowstone they are generally refered to as "dinner bells" and have been falling out of favor with the backwoods folk.

HHank
February 23, 2008, 01:37 PM
Thanks to *ALL* for your replies to this dangerous question! I am new to this board and was not aware of previous posts on this topic.(nor about the legal dicussion restrictions). Judgeing from the answers, the information given may be "priceless" to some "novices" that think they know more than they do about running around in the woods! Understanding this potential problem might just be the *most* important (or certainly one of the most) knowlege we can carry with us. Thanks again, I learned a lot.

NRA MEMBER

Zeede
February 24, 2008, 02:36 AM
I'm confused, if guns are illegal in national parks, then how are folks carrying them around in Alaska? Or is it just in wilderness that is specifically designated as a "national park"?

Personally, I'd bring a M1 Garand. Screw .45 ACP, 44 mag, or anything like that. 30-06 all the way. Or if not, then a shotgun with 00 buck and slugs.

Cameron

KurtC
February 24, 2008, 06:13 AM
I received this e-mail from the NRA yesterday morning:

Bush Administration to Propose New Rule
Regarding Right-to-Carry in National Parks
Friday, February 22, 2008
Fairfax, Va. - At the request of the Bush Administration and 51 members of the United States Senate led by Senator Mike Crapo (R-ID), the National Park Service and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service prohibition of firearms on agency land will be revised in the following weeks. The National Rifle Association (NRA) is leading the effort to amend the existing policy regarding the carrying and transportation of firearms in National Parks and wildlife refuges.

"Law-abiding citizens should not be prohibited from protecting themselves and their families while enjoying America's National Parks and wildlife refuges," said Chris W. Cox, NRA chief lobbyist. "Under this proposal, federal parks and wildlife refuges will mirror the state firearm laws for state parks. This is an important step in the right direction."

These new regulations, when finalized, will provide uniformity across our nation's federal lands and put an end to the patchwork of regulations that governed different lands managed by different federal agencies. In the past, only Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and Forest Service lands allowed the carrying of firearms, while National Park lands did not.

The current regulations on possession, carry or transportation of loaded or uncased firearms in national parks were proposed in 1982 and finalized in 1983. Similar restrictions apply in national wildlife refuges. The NRA believes it is time to amend those regulations to reflect the changed legal situation with respect to state laws on carrying firearms.

The effect of these now-outdated regulations on people who carry firearms for self-protection was far from the forefront at the time these regulations were adopted. As of the end of 1982, only six states routinely allowed citizens to carry handguns for self-defense. Currently, 48 states have a process for issuance of licenses or permits to allow law-abiding citizens to legally carry firearms for self-defense.

The move for regulatory change by the Administration will restore the rights of law-abiding gun owners who wish to transport and carry firearms for lawful purposes in most National Park lands and will make the laws consistent with state law where these lands are located. Fifty-one U.S. Senators from both parties sent a letter to the Department of Interior late last year supporting the move to render state firearms laws applicable to National Park lands.

"These changes will respect the Second Amendment rights of honest citizens, and we look forward to the issuance of a final rule this year," concluded Cox.

************

As for a .45 ACP, certain steel frame guns like the S&W 45xx series, can be modified to also shoot .45 Super. You can get 10mm velocities with a heavier bullet.

Northalius
February 24, 2008, 06:25 AM
If you can: Buy a 10mm Glock 20, load it up with Double Tap 200-230 gr. rounds, and you should be pretty well equipped against a bear (or bears).

Remember, always bring a few big bottles of bear spray (pepper spray). This helps against bears charging, and from a distance. They reach 30-40 feet. I've read great reports on this stuff; some said it was like the bear hit a brick wall after a full charge!

Let's imagine it doesn't work this well, it'll still be better than nothing else, on top of your bullets! So, bring both gun and pepper spray with you... ALWAYS! Pepper spray is good for you (and your wife) to have in the city, too. Works well against most people. :)

Anyway, people (including Ted Nugent) go hunting for big game with their Glock 20's... so that says a lot.

The 10mm is a superior round compared to the .45; it's even superior to the .357 Magnum!

Test a Glock 20 out at the range, with Double Tap ammo. See how you like it.

geophysicishooter
February 24, 2008, 06:35 AM
Then we saw one of the "great beasts" (Coastal Brown)- not huge, probably 800lbs or so. My buddy asked Mr. Bells and Pepper "...still think you have the right bear defense...?"

Day two Mr. Bells and Pepper carried a short-barrel shot gun and a .357 to the tune of "I can't believe how big that thing was...Did you see how big that thing was...Man, that thing was big!!!"


LMAO!!!!!!:D:D:D
I thought you were going to call him Mr Bell Pepper!! You had me cracking up!!

1911Tuner
February 24, 2008, 07:28 AM
If you can: Buy a 10mm Glock 20, load it up with Double Tap 200-230 gr. rounds, and you should be pretty well equipped against a bear (or bears).

Uh-huh...

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/bearhunt.asp

HM2PAC
February 24, 2008, 07:46 AM
Tuner,
Great link. I love that story.

Yesterday at the barbershop I read an account of a bear attack in a magazine.

In both accounts, and in others, the bear "Gets Lost" in the scope.
In no account did it seem as though anyone would have had time to get their BUG if they had one.

jahwarrior
February 24, 2008, 10:09 AM
"As for black bears, I don't think they attack people."....

this is why black bears are so dangerous, epecially in PA.

1911Tuner
February 24, 2008, 11:24 AM
As for black bears, I don't think they attack people.....

Some fairly recent studies have shown that Blacks are more likely to stalk and hunt people...as a food source...than the Grizzlys or the big Browns, which generally attack in self-defense or a territorial dispute. Of course, all females with cubs are extremely dangerous, regardless of the species.

jaysouth
February 24, 2008, 11:53 AM
Tuner,

Last year there was a 7 year old girl killed by a black in a TN state park. It stalked her and drug her out of a tent.

I have perfected the perfect method of foiling a grizzly, large brown bear or polar bar attack.

I developed this when we took my wife, her sister and her mother on a camping trip to the Flat Head Lake area of Montana. I gave each of the women a pan, a large spoon and a whistle.

In the event of a bear confrontation, the women were to make as much noise as possible and advance toward the bear banging pot and pans and blowing whistles. More the better if they screamed invectives at the bear/s while they advanced.(are women good at this or what?)

My job was to run perpendicular to the axis of attack in order to draw the bear away from the women.:D

They never did figure it out.:evil:

Musta been a plan cuz the bears stayed as far away from us as possible.

The Lone Haranguer
February 24, 2008, 12:05 PM
While I don't frequent this kind of country (King of the Wild Front Lawn, as it were:neener:), I still fear two-legged predatory animals much more than four- (or no-) legged ones.

Of course, all females with cubs are extremely dangerous, regardless of the species.
If you see a loose bear cub, beat feet in the opposite direction, 'cause Mama ain't far away. :eek:

Brasso
February 24, 2008, 12:27 PM
Personally, I don't believe that a .45acp would be any more effective against a grizzly bear than mud balls.

Reyn
February 24, 2008, 02:46 PM
Ive heard that black bears are responsible for more attacks on people than any other bear.

RManinID
February 24, 2008, 10:51 PM
I have spent about 1500+ miles backpacking through AZ,CA, ID, MT, And Alaska and have had about 30 or so run In's with Bears (Grizz, Black) and I carry a Glock 21 Strong Side / Bear Spray Week Side on my Belt.. But the Scary things i have run into are 6 Javalenas Tearing apart my campsite in AZ and a very aggressive badger in ID, a territorial beaver in Alaska. Now those were scary. and the snakes i hate snakes.

LAK Supply
February 24, 2008, 11:41 PM
Amen to that.... the chances of encountering the many other varieties of "annoying" animals and humans are much greater than encountering a bear in most cases. Up here I'm more worried about a pissed off moose or pack of wolves than I am of a bear.

The 10mm is adequate to stop anything you shoot right; McNett has done tests with his HCFN gas checked loads and found that they do about 24 1x4 pieces of pine in a baffle box out of a stock Glock barrel. The Glock is my first choice for most places as I value capacity with adequate power over 5-6 rounds with 1.5-2x the power. When I'm in the Black Hills or the Big Horns my G20 is on my hip with hardcasts and a 6" Jarvis barrel.

If you call Double Tap and speak with Mike McNett he'll tell you about some of the photos his customers have sent him... 1000+ lb moose and bison with his 200-230 gr 10mm stuff, and a pig down in Texarkana that was 350 lbs or something... shot right above it's pooper and the bullet exited the chest as was not recovered. In a survival situation or and 90% of the situations I will encounter in the mountains I'll take the 15+1 of adequate over the heavier Redhawk.

If I'm going to be running around in the Tetons for more than a few minutes, I do carry my 44 mag with 320 gr hardcasts at @ 1250 fps. That's the largest gun I care to pack; those SRH and X-frames are so damn big they're unpleasant to carry for long. An adequate gun that stays on your hip is better than a monster that's sitting on the camp table while you're down at the stream! :D

As far as the bears go.... as some people here have noted it's very rare for a bear encounter to go bad. If that's the case, I would take a .45 over nothing, but the 45 acp does not penetrate well. Penetration is going to be the second factor, right after "can you hit what you're aiming at under stress." If you must carry your 45 at least pick up some hardcast +P stuff so you have a chance.

There are documented occurrences where brown bears have been killed by 9mm and 38 spl. IIRC, the 9mm was a guy who was in the middle of a river and shot the brown that was attacking his friend on the bank.... hit it in the eye or something. The 38 spl was a hiker who fired (blindly) directly into the bear's ear while the critter was on top of him chewing on his other arm. Guy was in the fetal position and reached down and got his piece loose, then killed the bear with a lucky, blind, desperate shot.

There is no sure thing for a bear... other than a vehicle-mounted mini gun I suppose. Your best bet is to know where you're at, pay attention to what's going on around you, and not panic if you see something that may eat you. The gun should be your last-resort.

jon_in_wv
February 24, 2008, 11:47 PM
Will a .45 kill a grizzly? Sure it will.
Before he eats you? Maybe not!!

1911RjB
February 25, 2008, 12:11 AM
I'd personally go with a S&W .460 mag, S&W does have a Bear Survival Kit does it not? But I think with the right ammo, and shot placement a .45 will do the job. But I'd rather not test that out my self, IF you decide to have some one let us know ;]...

biscuitninja
February 25, 2008, 01:03 AM
A .45 is better than nothing. But I'd probably carry some pepper spray, while it won't STOP a bear in its tracks, it might give it enough annoyance to turn it around.

With that said, almost any hike that i've been on, I taken my Mosin Nagat M44 with some yellow tip heavy rounds (steel core heavy rounds). I've also taken it when my wife and I went to Alaska (she grew up there). Her friends and family were duly impressed that i'd pack enough hardware and not be a "city boy"... ha ha. While I didn't have a chance to ever use it as it was intended, a moose did decide that we might have food on us. I fired a round or two "noise wise" to scare it away.... But i was REAL nervous to have to take a shot if I had to.... (The wife got her 16 rounds of 9mm readly also...).
Anyways good luck
-bix

Defensory
February 25, 2008, 01:29 AM
Neither bear spray or a .45 are 100% effective. However, bear spray would be considerably more effective than a .45.

If it was my life on the line, I'd go with the bear spray. Not to mention that the bear spray wouldn't get you in trouble with the law like a firearm would.

Confederate
February 25, 2008, 01:49 AM
The worst thing a .45ACP can do is leave your wife with a false sense of security. Certainly having a gun is better than not having one, but though a .45 has a tough reputation as a manstopper, it simply lacks the penetration and the power to reliably do the the job.

For black bear, it would be kind of like using a .25ACP against a large, aggressive man.

Samuel Adams
February 25, 2008, 01:58 AM
Having spent a couple of weeks in Alaska courtesy of Uncle Sam, I was told the best thing to bring along on a fishing trip for such emergencies is a 12 ga. shotgun loaded with slugs. I also met a guy who put one down with the last round from his .303 as it charged him.

MikePGS
February 25, 2008, 02:14 AM
Although, if limited to pepper spray, I'd hose my hiking partner, and while he was thrashing and behaving like wounded prey, I'd high tail out of there and arrange for flowers for his relatives.
LOL The visual that gave me was hilarious :D

BlindJustice
February 25, 2008, 03:38 AM
It might but not before the Griz kills you...

There are .400 CorBon barrels available for drop in
on the 1911 platform. 155 gr. Hornady XTP JHP at
1350 fPS - let's see 8 rounds a clip maybe 4 clips
if yhou're in a tree stand... you might live and the
Griz dies some day....

BlindJustice
February 25, 2008, 03:58 AM
let me make a WAG - the original poster never posted again right?

Mac45
February 25, 2008, 04:18 AM
Nothing like a little dose of reality to test your ideology on ecology!!!
That's the best one I've heard in ages.
I may have to steal it for a signature line:D

USMCDK
February 25, 2008, 07:29 AM
originally posted by rp88 I'd take a 9mm hi-cap gun like a Glock over a .45ACP., and just unload into its underside and face. IMO, possibly hitting it 17 times beats hitting it 6 times then realizing that you need a couple seconds between reloading and getting eaten.

hi-cap 9mm only have 15 in mag and one in pipe that would equal 16. sorry to be a jerk but your math is wrong.

beemerphile
February 25, 2008, 08:02 AM
It might, but you will be inside the bear when it happens.

gb6491
February 25, 2008, 08:24 AM
hi-cap 9mm only have 15 in mag and one in pipe that would equal 16. sorry to be a jerk but your math is wrong.
More than a few 9mm pistols come from the factory with 15+ magazines (i.e. Ruger SR9 - 17rds, S&W MP - 17 rds, Beretta PX4 - 17rds) and there are many after market magazines that hold more than 15 rds available.
Regards,
Greg

HHank
February 25, 2008, 01:44 PM
BlindJustice's quote:"Let me make a wag, the original poster never posted again right?"

*Wrong*. See posts #1 and #57. And thanks for your input. Some of the comments and especially the pictures of the "Bear Attack" were quite informative and unsettleing (to say the least). This reality check is just what is needed for those of us who are not as experienced in the woods as some of you. Many novices to the woods believe almost everything they hear from "anyone" who says it. I most certainly assure you that this thread has done a great service in "wakeing up" the community at large.

Darthbauer
February 25, 2008, 02:01 PM
wait, let me go outside and shoot my bear!

Nope, it just pissed him off.

kanderson586
February 25, 2008, 08:43 PM
iam pretty new here and actually DID learn a lot from this "redundant" post. i also LMAO at some witty folks!!!

jon_in_wv
February 27, 2008, 12:51 AM
Penetration is going to be effected by your choice of load also. The 200gr +P XTPs from various makers are very deep penetrators.

bdg146
February 27, 2008, 07:50 AM
I asked this question a few months ago, except my question asked it in regards to a PA black bear. I got similar answers.

I'm pretty much stuck with a .45 for now, so I went and picked up some ammo for this purpose. I was told "penetration and limited or no expansion", which makes sense to me. I was recommended some high velocity FMJ from Double Tap, but I couldn't find them in stores. I recently found some +p flat-nosed FMJs from Buffalo Bore. Haven't had a chance to run them through my P90 yet, but I'm sure they'll be fine.

SlipperyShooter
February 27, 2008, 09:35 AM
Personal Defense TV had an interesting episode about predator defense.

Their strong suggestion (I believe they were at GunSite) was to use a long gun (shotgun with slugs, etc) if at all possible, but that a .44 Magnum or S&W 500 would be an acceptable alternative "if you had no other choice."

Shoot in the "triangle between the eyes and the nose" was the suggestion, especially if you are using smaller caliber.

Anything less than that and I think you are rolling the dice.

jon_in_wv
February 28, 2008, 01:09 AM
.45acp should be more than enough fro a black bear. They don't get nearly as large.

Defensory
February 28, 2008, 01:47 AM
I've sworn by 1911 .45's for over 30 years. My all-time favorite handgun and handgun cartridge.

However, I have no desire to run into a black bear or any kind of bear, when that's all I'm carrying. For that matter, I wouldn't want to be carrying ANY type of handgun, if I only had the choice of one weapon.

If I'm going into bear country, I'll be toting a 5+1 semi-auto shotgun loaded with 00 buck or slugs---or a semi-auto rifle chambered for at least .308, but preferably .30-06.

CJ
February 28, 2008, 03:34 PM
This reminds me of a Far Side cartoon:

A group of cavemen stand around a woolly mammoth they have just killed. The creature is staggeringly bigger and more powerful than their little band armed with sticks and stones. But a single wound from a single stick felled the monster. One of the cavemen points to the wound and says to the others, "Let's remember that spot."

If you hit that spot on a grizzly, even a pointy stick will stop it. My uncle, an Alaskan bear guide in many of his younger years, carried an original Casull .454 for, as he put it, 'Last ditch, up the nose', if that tells you anything about caliber choice and belief regarding how much good it might do.

senorlinc
February 29, 2008, 12:48 AM
i used to spend quite a bit of overnight time in bear country...we had been advised by the helpful rangers and their well written pamphlet that while nothing is guaranteed to stop a charging griz, the best primary defense weapon was a 12 ga w at least 5 rounds....personally i have heard several testimonials about the bear mace. apparantly it works ...

Northalius
February 29, 2008, 05:12 AM
hi-cap 9mm only have 15 in mag and one in pipe that would equal 16. sorry to be a jerk but your math is wrong.

Actually, he's right. The Glock 17 comes with 17 round magazines! You're most likely thinking of the Glock 19, with 15 round magazines. The Glock 17 would then have 18 shots altogether, with 1 in the chamber. You can always buy 1-2 round extensions, as well, for the magazine. Then you can buy "true hi-cap" Glock 18 magazines (which can fit in all the other semi-auto 9mm models: Glock 17, 19, 26, 34), which hold 33 rounds of 9mm. They're so hi-cap, because the Glock 18 is a fully automatic pistol.

Anyway, if I had to pick a handgun for outdoors, it'd be the 10mm Glock 20. Again, many hunters use this for medium and big game. Ted Nugent goes hunting for big game all the time, including in Africa, taking down 1000+ pounders with his Glock 20.

Again, I'd strongly suggest you test the Glock 20 out, with hot Double Tap ammo (200-230 grain FMJ, for bears or hunting in general). The Glock 20 holds 15 in the magazine, and 1 in the chamber.

Of course, a shotgun and/or AK-47 (;)) is always best, but pistol only? Glock 20 for me. It's good for backup, even if you have a shotgun / rifle / assault rifle on you (ALONG WITH YOUR PEPPER SPRAY - DON'T FORGET!)

Chemotaxis
March 6, 2008, 06:36 PM
This 45 will stop a Grizz-its called the 45-08-and its pretty ridiculous, but awsome for 1911 fans-

AS for all this talk about what will kill a grizzly, when i was 19 (7 years ago) i killed a grizzly at 25 Metres with a single 30-30 shell to the neck, with two more on principle...at dusk, from my grandfathers Model 64-there is a hole in the skull, behind his eardrum where i think a piece of his vertabrae broke into the brain case...he didnt move, just rolled over...

SO THE LESSON IS-SHOT PLACEMENT and being calm are key in my opinion.

The 45-08 seems like an interesting idea-
His website is here- http://www.armco-guns.com/what's%20new%20at%20armco.htm

Posts regarding the 45-08 are here-

45-08 update! Actually, nothing really new, except it is working out really well with more and more wilderness guys & gals having occasion to use it. Reports are very encouraging :) We still haven't found a better powder than Hodgdon Longshot, but testing is ongoing. I'm playing with a bottleneck version (200 grain 10mm bullets), as well as looking for a good hardcast flat point 220 to 240 grain bullet. 250's are an option, too, at about 1150- to 1200...
This is essentially a .308 case cut down to .45 ACP length and neck reamed to make room for a Nosler 230 grain FMJ flat point bullet (and as much powder as we can cram in behind it. Alternately a 200 grain hard cast SWC bullet beautifully cast and sized by Smart Bullets is used, at higher speeds, of course. Results? So far, almost 1200 FPS from the 230 grain bullet with a 4 1/4" barreled Springfield Armory Defender with a 2 port compensator and a 22 pound recoil spring. That will translate into well over 1200 with a 5" barrel (testing soon) and starts to get REAL close to what you get from a 4" Model 29 in .44 Magnum. 50% (at least) more rounds and twice the controllability. Recoil is absolutely nothing compared to the big magnums, although it IS noticeable! Testing is ongoing and will include a .40Super barrel with 200 grainers at around 1300 FPS. Should be fun. I still like the .45/08 version, and even at the speeds we've achieved, see no excessive pressure signs with Federal 150 (large pistol) primers, which are notoriously soft. The cases, of course, are made to withstand pressures we'll never encounter without actually blowing these pistol primers to smithereens! I really think that a standard 5" 1911 or Para Ordnance, set up with the heaviest recoil springs that Wolff makes, will push 230 grain bullets past 1250, without being anywhere near as punishing to shoot as a hot heavy bullet .44 Magnum load in a Redhawk, a much bigger and heavier gun.

The idea came from the need for a "Bear Gun" for the north where a lot of people who move about in the woods for a living are now getting licenses to carry a handgun. Traditionally it's been a .44 Magnum or bigger, but some of these are a pain to carry comfortably all day, along with a lot of other necessary gear.

I ran into a prospector who insisted on carrying a Colt Officer's Model loaded with 230 grain hardball! Another carries a Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull and has a permanently disabled shooting hand and the biggest flinch you ever saw. Somewhere in between there has to be a gun that has the penetration and sheer bullet weight to take down a bear, even a grizzly, and still be shootable by the average person.

There are, of course, others like this, such as the .45 Super, touted by Ace Custom .45's out of Texas, the .451 Detonics Magnum of some years ago, and the new Triton .450SMC, as well as the .460 Rowland pushed by Clark, and sold only as a compensated gun. It gets to 1300 FPS, but probably needs the comp! All these, by the way, are the same overall length, although case lengths differ. The problem, as we've discovered, is to find a powder that will give us the velocity we want without compressing enough to start pushing the bullet back out. That lets out the old magnum standby, Hodgdon H110, and actually all its contemporaries, such as N110 Vihtavuori, 296, 2400, 4227 IMR, etc. N105 seems to compress at about 1200, so may be OK - and as is usual with this excellent powder, shows no more pressure than an ordinary IPSC load. Others hit the "wall" at 1050 and 1150, and we're currently playing with Tite Group, which is compact enough, and has shown nice results in some reasonable .44 magnum loads.

CaptMac
March 6, 2008, 09:21 PM
Rely on a handgun to stop a "charging" Grizzly roflmao > A handgun is your best defense against an unexpected attack, only because you have it on you. But a Grizzly the best "most common" would be a reliable .12 Ga Shotgun loaded with Brenneke Slugs.

1911Tuner
March 6, 2008, 09:29 PM
.12 Ga Shotgun loaded with Brenneke Slugs.

Which would be roughly equivalent to the diameter of the projectile fired in a 155 Self-Propelled howitzer...

Yeah. That'd probably stop a chargin' Tyrannosaur.

:D

Welcome aboard, Cap'n.

yongxingfreesty
March 6, 2008, 09:36 PM
too easy.

last summer,

i blinded Mr. Grizzly Bear w/ my streamlight tlr-1 and unloaded 33 + 1 of 9mm speer gold dot and ate the bear for dinner.

no pics of the bear, but it was very tasty. HAHAHA

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/yongxingliang/g17.jpg

icanthitabarn
March 6, 2008, 11:46 PM
I would be more at ease with a shotgun and slugs. However, if you believe me, I once took a huge Grizz with a bow, while being charged. I posed with my trophy. :rolleyes: http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/rock46839/00000-1.png

jr_roosa
March 7, 2008, 12:20 AM
You know, if your 1911 gets stuck in his throat on the way down, he might starve to death.

-J.

Zeede
March 7, 2008, 03:14 AM
If I were hiking in bear territory I'd bring a M1 Garand. Screw .45 ACP, 30-06, baby!

On topic, however, the answer is "Probably not, especially if you can't put the rounds where they'd count the most." Most likely you aren't going to be toting a Thompson, so if we're talking .45 ACP, we're talking handguns. And if you have the time to post on an internet forum, you should also have enough time to arrange to bring a rifle or shotgun instead. :)

Cameron

Pathtoyorsoul
July 25, 2009, 11:07 PM
I had a conversation with someone today and they said that they didn't think a .45 would stop a grizzly. Well I wanted to see what others thought so I came here. Most people say that they would favor pepper spray over the .45. I would much rather have the gun. Watch this video and you'll see why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjkTmE--Ntg

Lone_Gunman
July 26, 2009, 01:41 AM
I think this has been discussed on every gun forum over and over.

Yes, that is true, but if comments like that were left out, the threads would only be half as long.

Browns Fan
July 26, 2009, 02:24 AM
Quote:
"This is my only bear story:"

I dont have a bear story, and I dont WANT my own bear story!

Call me a wus if you want to, but I'd rather face 5 crackheaded gangbangers than one bear!

30mag
July 26, 2009, 02:24 AM
Is CSC (concealed spear (http://www.coldsteel.com/spear.html) carry[not sure about the licensing term]) legal in National parks?

bootless
July 26, 2009, 05:24 AM
After all these bear threads I've never heard the idea of carrying both spray and a gun. After all every situation is different, so one can give themselves the option of whatever they feel will work. What's wrong with bells/making noise while carrying a gun? I rarely see this and the bear threads as well.

C-grunt
July 26, 2009, 06:59 AM
I was at a LEO conference at a game and fish building and they had a small slide show about that world record grizzly that the hunter shot. It killed and partially ate two people a few days before, had some pics of a guy with his legs eaten. Apparently that guy shot the bear several times with a .357 at close range and the slugs were recovered imbedded in the bears skull.

Yeah I dont think a .45 would be a good bear stopper.

Gungnir
July 26, 2009, 04:39 PM
Interesting Compare Contrast for this both happened in AK and both involved interior Grizz

1) 60 year old woman shot a Grizz that was tearing up her place in the bush with a .32 one shot kill, hit dead in the eye.

2) 3 experienced hunters charged from about 90 yards, all carrying 338 Win Mags all got 2 shots on target bear fell dead 10 feet from them. Damn good and accurate shooting.

Proving, nothing, #1 was lucky, #2 was lucky, you pays your money and takes your chance, in Bear country paying attention is gonna save your ass before pepper spray, or any kind of projectiles, you can smell and hear bear from quite a distance. Make noise generally they'll leave, if not, well then you can prepare to deploy pepper spray or firearms. If you don't know where they are you probably shouldn't be there, and you probably wouldn't be able to kill the bear with a tac-nuke

Personally bear defense wise I carry a 870 with OO buck and Brenneke Slugs, and spray, and a 40S&W for self defense against any 2 legged predators. Hunting 338 Win Mag for Grizz, or 30-06 180 gr SP interlock loaded to 3000 fps if I come across one that isn't specific quarry but I've got a good shot placement but only if my rifle's packing those rounds (which it frequently isn't unless I'm gunning for moose).

Surefire
July 26, 2009, 04:45 PM
A .45 acp could very likely KILL a grizzly, but it is unlikely to STOP the bear from killing you before it dies.

A .22 for that matter might kill a grizzly with a lucky shot, but would be almost impossible to stop the bear from attacking.

Whether or not a round kills the bear is irrelevant, IMO. You want to stop the bear's attack, and nothing short of a .454 Casull in a pistol is IMO even remotely effective at STOPPING a gizzly bear from attacking. A rifle designed for dangerous game is the best bet, but of course it is not exactly easy to carry or concealable.

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