February 24, 2008, 06:03 AM
Help me figure this out.
I currently have an ATI collapsable stock on my Winchester 1300 which I paid around $50 for. Not only does it's design make me press my face into the gun to get an even line of sight, but recoil feels harder than the original stock. I have read reviews on this product and I am not alone on both observations.
I came across a simmilar stock made by Knoxx industries which sells for twice as much. I will assume that the line of sight issue will not be a problem since the butt seems to be lower in relation to the barrel.
My question is about all the reviews I have read about how much this product reduces felt recoil. How can two stocks that look so simmilar perform so differently? I am willing to spend the extra coin if it will mean a noticable reduction in recoil and an easy to aim shotgun.
February 24, 2008, 07:33 AM
The Knoxx has a leveraged spring recoil absorbing system built into the pistol grip. The receiver actually recoils against said spring, soaking up some of the 'punch'.
I tried one, hoping my wife would like it- she found the whole thing objectionable, the stock tube was too fat and interfered with her cheek weld, and she didn't like the pistol grip. It seems a good design and well executed, but it just didn't fit her.
Me? I don't like pistol grip stocks on shotguns.
FIT and FEEL are critical components in a shotgun stock. Get those two right, learn proper form and gun mount, and recoil should not be an issue with normal loads.
February 24, 2008, 12:43 PM
A stock won't reduce recoil, it will reduce felt recoil. If the drop on the stock is such that it will cause muzzle rise or if the stock is elastic or has a spring like the Knoxx, it will spread the recoil impulse over a slightly longer time, causing less felt recoil.
February 24, 2008, 12:54 PM
Managing recoil has more to do with proper technique than changing the stock. You cannot buy-your-way out of improper hold and arm tension.
February 24, 2008, 01:24 PM
I don't know about tacticool crap, but on a normal sporting shotgun stock, proper stock fit will greatly reduce PERCEIVED recoil. It's really amazing the difference it can make.
February 24, 2008, 01:46 PM
A fella won't hit
If the gun don't fit
Is the rage these days
Some folks like to hunt
Others shoot clays
A bone stock shotgun
Allows one to shoot all targets
Defense, hunting clays and fun
Instead of shooting money to those that market.
*Henry Gibson Smilie*
February 24, 2008, 01:53 PM
And SM is a poet,
But then, he probably knew it....:D
February 24, 2008, 03:08 PM
Thank you Lee for the info.
I am guilty as charged of buying into the "tacticool crap" and ditto for probably not using the best technique. (working on the latter)
That being said...
I woke up this morning and was still the owner of a shotgun that forces me to keep my head in an uncomfortable position just to aim it. When shooting, the felt recoil is more than when I had the original non-pistol grip stock.
I realize that shotguns hold a special place in the hearts of many people here. Many have fond memories from childhood of hunting quail with grandpa with an old single shot nicely worn .410 or (insert any other shotgun memory here). I see how putting anything plack and plastic on a gun like this some consider sacrilege.
My shotgun memories are as follows.
- 18 years old, never held or fired a shotgun
- walk into gunstore for a H/D weapon
- cant buy pistol, sales guy says shotgun is the way to go.
- held one with a pistolgrip, felt great. Forgot what brand but it was pricey
- bought the 1300 no pistol grip because it was in my price range at the time.
- shot the 1300 for years with no problem but always wanted the look and feel of the PG maybe because it was out of my reach at the time.
Looking back, it was my first purchase as an adult, and I still have it to this day. I cant think of anything else that I can say the same for.
February 24, 2008, 04:20 PM
I have nothing against tools for task.
I have assisted armored car guards , undercover /plainclothes LEO and private security in the use of PGO shotguns.
I am going w-a-y back, before a lot of what is available today, come to be.
I hate the damn things, still I know about actually shooting a PGO from a real Armored Car with the issued 2 3/4" , nine pellet, 00 buckshot.
There was no reduced recoil ammunition.
Breeching? Yep, I have assisted in this too, as some of my Mentors were those real deal persons that had btdt and passed to me, and I assisted them , or years later, folks like them in this breeching tool use for a Dept.
There were no gun schools when I was coming up. Uncle Sam trained folks as did Police Depts.
Shotgun are pointed - not aimed.
Exceptions do apply in specific tasks. Turkey hunting is one , breeching a slug is another.
Now every swinging richard wants to be TEEM Walrus. Oh these bad boys make TEEM SEEL look like a bunch of little girls running and screaming with flailing hands.
Screw 'em - feed 'em fish heads and rice I say.
I really hate the fact some folks are breathing my air and are contributing to my rights being hammered on by Anti's and Gun Grabbers and I do not appreciate New Folks getting WRONG information.
MY mentors knew about moving targets, they learned to shoot skeet with shotguns and ammo Uncle Sam bought so they could be aerial gunners to hit planes - planes move.
Pilots learned to shuck, jive and juke, as if they moved, the enemy shooting at their plane would have a harder time hitting them , be the guns shooting at them were aimed or pointed.
On can miss with all them 00 buckshot pellets if Charlie is juking and jiving and coming in the wire and and you don't 'Point' the shotgun and match angle, speed and swing the shotgun through, slap trigger and follow through...
Mentor kicked himself later, he grew up a country boy shooting shotguns at quail, doves and ducks. He shucked and got back to shooting a damn shotgun like a country boy can and put down 3 Charlies that come into the wire.
He admitted, he screwed up, surprise, fear, and seeing his bud with his hwad blown off messed up his mental game...
Nothing wrong with tactical, just some folks need to get off their ass and realize there is a real world out there, including courtrooms, and if they really want to play with tactical stuff, Join the Military.
Get a bone stock shotgun that fits you. I don't care if it fits me, Dave, Lee, PJR, Trapper, or anyone else around here, and I and they don't care if it does or not.
We don't care if a Win, Mossberg, Rem, or Ithaca either.
MY suggestion is to get a bone stock shotgun with WOOD stock.
-Wood is denser , therefore less perceived recoil.
-Wood allows for tweaking gun fit, including comb, LOP, cant, pitch, and even attaching a recoil pad back on, as some syn stocks make that difficult.
One has to have a gun that fits to learn correct basics and then continue quality lessons.
YOU are part of the shotgun, one cannot shoot what they cannot see, and the pellets, slugs have to go where pointed.
Now, you get to be one with the gun, you have a gun that fits you.
Now go get a synthetic stock that meets these dimensions, you know work and fit you, as you have a wood stock gun you can copy.
Go see Awerbuck for instance and now, ask about defensive shotguns.
LOP he will suggest be a tad shorter. Again, a wood one might be best to fit to you, as a synthetic might not be able to be had, or tweaked to fit.
Defensive let me share I watched firebombs being tossed toward houses, these are moving targets, low light/no light conditions and bone stock shotguns felled this out of the air, before they could reach a porch, or roof and set a structure on fire.
I watched this as a kid, I got bigger and did this myself.
Now one learns correct basics with a bone stock gun that fits.
This is THE foundation one build upon.
Skeet, Trap, 5 stand, Sporting Clays, Hunting, Defensive , 3 gun...and everything one has for a solid foundation will allow them to tranistion.
10 pound tactical shotgun with optics distracts the hell out me.
I cannot see a skeet target moving 55 mph...
I can take a 10 pound 10 ga BPS pump shotgun, and from low gun, get that big old heavy gun up and bust them same skeet targets.
Toss me a Dept issued Police or Riot gun, no optics, mag extension, I can do the same thing with that short barrel.
Oh I will slap a moleskin pad to raise a comb if need, or use electrical tape and styrofoam cups.
Still I tweaked those guns to fit me...
I will shoot dirt, or a pattern board and see what a gun will do that does not fit me...
Now I have some trigger time, and I can get my brain and human computer to understand what I want to do...compensate for a gun that does not shoot where I look, and have to shoot so they gun will hit.
I and others can do this, as we have the foundation built to do so.
We have dropped more shells than TEEM SEEL has have shot, or even handled.
800 rds in two days, 2500 in a week, 100 - 200 slugs in a day and one year I ran around 50,000 shells through a shotgun.
My role is for folks to learn correct basics with a gun to fit.
Then go see someone about whatever tasks they want to do.
I always started Armored Car and LEOs and other with full stock guns, never a pistol grip forend with light loads.
IF...IF I could I did so with a 28 ga, and preferred having a lot of various guns for everyone to check for gun fit.
This drove the Armored Car Folks nuts...Police too, but I am hard headed enough, and I proved my point.
One day, maybe only a half a day is all I got, still I got it.
Then folks got up to speed a whole lot faster with Issued guns, and whatever else we had to do.
A 6'3" 220 pound fit as can be fella learning shotguns with a 28 ga, will not think you are stupid.
He saw the light bulb go off.
Yep, exactly how I assisted with serious fella on shotgun use.
Just my take, and I have the right to be wrong, which also means I have the right to be correct as well.
February 25, 2008, 03:36 PM
Not only does it's design make me press my face into the gun to get an even line of sight, but recoil feels harder than the original stock.
That line says that the shotgun, as setup, does not "Fit" you. Try an original equipment stock if you can find cheap/borrow from a shooting budd.
I don't remeber the brand right now, but one of my shooting budds had some brand of after-market stock. Said it felt like it had a 30-grit sandpaper patch for a cheekpiece. A piece of "moleskin" over that spot fixed it up for him.
February 25, 2008, 04:16 PM
YOU are part of the shotgun.
I'm nothing like an expert and most certainly don't know as much as others here, but that's the essence for me. When it's true the shotgun does not recoil. It moves our turret slightly backwards as if on a strong spring, and it returns forward at the proper time. We move together and the sensation is most pleasant.
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