Saps and Blackjacks


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yakkingallover
February 24, 2008, 12:01 PM
Anyone have any ideas on where to source a striking device along these lines. Looking for something of good quality and don't mind spending some money...

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4v50 Gary
February 24, 2008, 12:06 PM
Police supply places. Be sure you check the legality in your state first.

R127
February 24, 2008, 12:59 PM
I see you are in Florida. It seems these weapons are prohibitted under the rule against manufacturing or selling slungshot. Here are the relevant passages.

"(12) "Slungshot" means a small mass of metal, stone, sand, or similar material fixed on a flexible handle, strap, or the like, used as a weapon."

"790.09 Manufacturing or selling slungshot.--Whoever manufactures or causes to be manufactured, or sells or exposes for sale any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slungshot, or metallic knuckles, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."

And here is the whole chapter.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0790/titl0790.htm&StatuteYear=2007&Title=-%3E2007-%3EChapter%20790

I haven't seen anywhere that slungshot is illegal to buy or own, just illegal to make or sell. I still wouldn't mess with it because it's a very dubious area. That said slungshot of one form or another is available for sale EVERYWHERE! It seems this law is routinely ignored and I'm not suprised. It is one of the most positively stupid weapon laws in our state. You can't have a sock with a rock in it but you can legally carry around a pistol. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

About a million everyday ordinary objects meet the definition of slungshot. Did you ever use a lead sinker when you went fishing or do you wear a belt to hold up your pants? I have no idea what halfbaked moron got a wild hair up his but and went after slungshot but this law desperately need to be removed from the books. You'd think the martial arts community would be easy to motivate on this one since nunchucks and manriki gusari are both valid martial arts weapons and both meet the legal definition of slungshot. It's a very very dumb and bad law.

Pax Jordana
February 24, 2008, 01:23 PM
I have no idea what halfbaked moron got a wild hair up his but and went after slungshot

Jacksonville doesn't look much like a port town to me. You guys get a lot of sailors?

Hey, birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, legislators gotta legislate. It's how they fix problems.

From a legal standpoint you might be better off using something "improvised" to club a home invader.. but boy are saps fun to play with!

They sell serviceable ones at cheaperthandirt.com also.

In PA they're illegal to carry around, with another more general provision about 'offensive weapons' just to cover all the bases. Laws get hairy, lemme tell ya.

yakkingallover
February 24, 2008, 02:04 PM
Good to know these things, I will have to dig a lil deeperand see if carry would be permissible with a ccw permit since in Florida we have concealed weapons as opposed to concealed firearm. And yes Jacksonville is a major port city not sure if you were being sarcastic or not.

R127
February 24, 2008, 02:21 PM
Honestly an Asp baton is a better weapon for most purposes and is legal in our state. Just an idea. I still think the anti-slungshot laws are really stupid though.

Skofnung
February 24, 2008, 03:12 PM
It was sort of like a switchblade ban of the 1800's. Slungshot (which is different from a sap or a blackjack, more akin to the Chinese "meteor-hammer") were seen as a thugs weapon, and indeed they were used by miscreants. It was pure moral panic.

Timthinker
February 24, 2008, 06:44 PM
Like so many here, I have read about many different types of impact weapons. With a little research, you should be able to obtain the addresses of companies that sell blackjacks and saps. Please note the differences between the two. Blackjacks tend to impart more damage due to their shape. The sap, having a flatter surface diameter, tends to diffuse the impact of a blow along a greater area thereby minimizing its lethality compared to the blackjack. This is a point you may wish to consider. In addition, metal flashlights such as the Maglite might be considered a quasi-legal version of a truncheon or blackjack. While we are not discussing metal flashlights, I thought it might prove useful to bring up this point.

Honestly, there are a great variety of actual and improvised impact weapons that can be purchased or created with little effort. I recommend that you think about these weapons legally and practically also. If you decide upon a particular weapon, then become familiar with how to use it effectively. Your life may depend upon it.


Timthinker

Timthinker
February 25, 2008, 04:57 AM
The topic of blackjacks and saps has reminded me of a story one of my uncles told our family some years ago. My uncle knew a bus driver who kept a leaded pool cue with him on his bus. This gentleman cut the cue to a manageable length and wrapped it in a newspaper he carried with him. After returning home from work one evening, a mugger attempted to rob the bus driver. The old driver quickly struck the mugger over the head with the newspaper containing this makeshift blackjack. The attacker fell unconscious to the ground as the driver ran indoors. The next day the old driver discovered some money that the mugger apparently dropped and decided to keep it. Every time I think of that story I am reminded of how effective blackjacks can be. I also wonder about the moral fiber of my uncle's friends.:D


Timthinker

jaysouth
February 25, 2008, 10:06 AM
"Gentlemen have firearms, thugs have knives and coshes"

I forgot the original author of this but it expresses how most people feel on a visceral level.

If you want an impact weapon for your home, good on ya, a baseball bat or crowbar would fit the bill.

Out in public, the onus in on you to prove that you are the 'good guy' for carrying a thugs weapon. Even cops can't carry these anymore.

Also remember, displaying a blackjack or knife in public gives somebody a perfect execuse to shoot you without without fear of prosecution.

jonjon1885
February 25, 2008, 12:42 PM
Also remember, displaying a blackjack or knife in public gives somebody a perfect execuse to shoot you without without fear of prosecution.


be careful with that statement, they might not get prosecuted but will certainly have lots of court time and expenses $$$$. which is probably why many of us law abiding citizens don't go around shooting at every LEGAL opportunity.

if you carry an alternate form of protection treat it just like you would a gun.

Timthinker
February 25, 2008, 07:31 PM
Be discreet with any weapon you carry. This is sound advice regardless of weapon type. Also remember that impact weapons can be extremely effective, so do not use them unless all other options are exhausted. This is a good policy to follow in the eyes of the law-and your conscience.


Timthinker

JHansenAK47
February 25, 2008, 07:51 PM
http://budk.com/Default.asp?bhcd2=1203987007
You have to look, but I bought my blackjacks here. More of a toy than something you would want to carry.

Snarlingiron
February 25, 2008, 08:56 PM
Texas is sort of goofy on this point. You can sell them, you can buy them all over the place, but it is illegal to carry one.

More of a toy than something you would want to carry.

I have to disagree. A slapjack smartly applied to someones head, knee, elbow, ankle, etc. can smash bone. It is most assuredly not a toy.

jaysouth
February 26, 2008, 12:00 AM
If you pull a knife or jack on somebody and get yourself killed, the cops and prosecutors won't push it far. One less thug on the street in their view. If they do, the shooter still walks after paying 20-30K to a shyster for his defense.

If you want a deadly weapon to carry, get a gun. That's what law abiding citizens carry where licensed.

JONJON:

Prosecute means judicial proceedings. If you don't go to court, you have not been prosecuted, if you have not been prosecuted, you do not go to court.

RyanM
February 26, 2008, 01:39 AM
Swing a good, solid-head, spring-loaded blackjack with any real force at someone's head, and you'll cave it in. Easily. Like smashing a watermelon with a sledgehammer. They are not toys.

Main benefits of a blackjack are compared to a knife or other edged weapon. More immediate stopping power (knife to throat = 5-10 seconds, blackjack to head = instant; knife to arm = some bleeding, maybe a cut tendon if you've trained for 40 years at some dojo, blackjack to arm = broken arm), slightly less chance of blood contact.

Timthinker
February 26, 2008, 01:56 AM
Ryan, you are correct about the effectiveness of blackjacks as worthwhile impact weapons. In my opinion, the blackjack is underestimated as a compact self-defense weapon. Why this is the case would make for an interesting discussion. After all, blackjacks have been around much longer than "tactical" folders and other self-defense products that are marketed today. This is something to think about.


Timthinker

JHansenAK47
February 26, 2008, 07:08 PM
I have to disagree. A slapjack smartly applied to someones head, knee, elbow, ankle, etc. can smash bone. It is most assuredly not a toy.
That is why it is banned in several states and is not covered under my states CCW laws. They do work, but require you to make physical contact with the person being struck. Which make them more of a liability to carry in addition to my pistol that has range and instantly disables better than any blackjack without much limitation. They just don't have the nod from law enforcement for concealed carry.

Timthinker
February 27, 2008, 05:51 AM
JHansen, I agree with your position that blackjacks are effective. I think all of us, hopefully, agree on this matter. Also, I think we agree on the questionable legal status of these items. But it is at this point we may part company. In a mugging, you will be within arms reach of your assailant. At this distance, a blackjack, pistol or blade can be used along with unarmed fighting techniques if you are unable to access your weapon. In this senario, the blackjack can be used effectively.

While I do not doubt the effectiveness of handguns as self-defense weapons, I do think the blackjack has been undervalued as a defensive item. A 14 ounce blackjack applied to a thug's skull seems like a good fight stopper to me. I think other will agree with this position also. My point is the blackjack is a very useful weapon for one skilled in its use. I hope this posting gives my readers food for thought.


Timthinker

langloisandy
February 27, 2008, 07:04 AM
Hi, I make them! In fact I am having a 2nds sale currently, See some photos:

http://www.andysleather.com/andysleather/saps.html

$35 each, includes shipping.

Andy

PS email me direct for photos, I have approx 20 on hand.

senior
February 27, 2008, 09:07 AM
I too remember blackjacks from one my Dad carried as an M.P. prior to WW 11, wrist stap and leaded ball with a stout spring in the shaft, beleive me, would take no effort to crack a man's skull with a relatively light "tap" as compaired to doing the same damage with a baton of the type used today!

Seven High
February 27, 2008, 03:20 PM
Are there any books or instruction manuals avaliable to teach how to properly use a blackjack or sap?

Timthinker
February 27, 2008, 05:47 PM
Seven High, while I am not aware of any training materials specifically designed for the blackjack, it would function like a very short club. Actually, the 14 ounce blackjack to which I have referred is a short club. This being the case, one could employ it in a manner similiar to that used with Maglite flashlights some LEOs carry. I do believe there are training materials for the use of metal flashlights as clubs.

One point I need to make here is that the police are taught where not to strike, to avoid lawsuits for police brutality. As a civilian fighting for your life, you may wish to disregard that advice and target the BGs most vurnerable areas. This is something you should consider. I hope this helps.


Timthinker

Seven High
February 27, 2008, 08:20 PM
Timthinker: Thankyou for the information. I remember someone telling me not to hit someone in the head with a blackjack type weapon but I have never seen information on the proper places to strike.

alwilliam
February 28, 2008, 01:06 AM
Tell David at the below email address that.... AL WILLIAM sent you and ya want blackjacks and saps ! ;) Hes one of the top dogs and a straight shooter.

Davids leather work is outstanding and well priced..if you can think it in leather he can make it or maybe he already has.

daviddoerr@d3protection.com

Skofnung
February 29, 2008, 07:37 PM
The way I look at it, if you are justified in hitting someone with a blackjack, you are justified to use deadly force, and thus the restriction on smacking the head is moot.

A blackjack is no less a deadly weapon in the eyes of the law than a knife. If you hit a fellow with one, you had best have a very compelling reason for doing so.

All that said, the collarbone would be a great less-lethal target, though you might miss and hit the head...

B.D. Turner
February 29, 2008, 07:59 PM
A 10" adjustable wrench works and is 50 states legal.

Seven High
February 29, 2008, 08:19 PM
A ballpean hammer also works and is legal to carry in your vehicle. Who knows what will happen after you use it though?

Timthinker
March 1, 2008, 05:21 AM
Skofnung, I agree with your assessment 100%. Any weapon such as a gun, knife, blackjack or even a wrench can be construed as a deadly weapon. Never use any of these items without a legitimate and compelling reason. Anyone who seriously thinks about self-defense should know the laws governing deadly force. Thanks for bringing up this point.


Timthinker

B.D. Turner
March 1, 2008, 10:01 AM
Pepper spray would be a better choice. You do not have to get close enough to touch the attacker, you can use it against more than one person at a time. OC spray will be legal where a firearm will likely be illegal. While OC is not legal everywhere there are many other places you can still live in freedom and protect yourself.

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