Hornady Lock and Load doesn't Lock or Load!


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Spartacus451
February 24, 2008, 10:58 PM
I started using the CAPD (Case Activated Powder Die/Measure) today and found that the vibration of the powder measure working would consistently loosen the die bushing in the press. Eventually this leads to the bushing rising along with the CAPD and that produces a squib load. Luckily I caught it before endagering myself. I checked every station and found out that half of them had partially unlocked and were loose even when fully locked in.

Has anyone else had this problem? Solutions? Thicker o-ring? Oversized die bushings? I really don't want to have to ship the press back...


This is exactly what I have come to expect from the American firearm and reloading industry. I am so sick of buying guns and shooting related products that don't work. I hope they have good warranty service because lord knows I am going to need it. I bet they will make me go through two or three ineffective workarounds (SOP) before they actually replace frame with another equally sloppy one from the refurb pile.

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SASS#23149
February 24, 2008, 11:00 PM
Capd ?

snuffy
February 24, 2008, 11:12 PM
CAPD Case Activated Powder Dispenser.

Spartacus451
February 24, 2008, 11:14 PM
Case Activated Powder Die/Measure. It slides up and down and weighs quite a bit. It has a rotating drum like the RCBS measure (not a sliding bar like the Dillon) and it is extremely tall.

Additonally... they "lost" one of the UPCs for the bullet offer. I sent the UPC for the press and a set of dies taped to each other and they sent it back saying I hadn't included the UPC for the dies. The problem was that the UPC for the press they sent back was not the same one that I gave them! The UPC they sent back was attached to a different much thinner piece of cardboard. I sent it back with a letter of explanation a month ago and I still haven't heard back. None of this is promising.

IMtheNRA
February 25, 2008, 01:02 AM
My LNL AP came with four loose bushings, only station 1 locked the dies in place well. Hornady sent me four replacement bushings and only two of those are good. CAPD/M comes loose all the time. So does the expanding die. This, as well as several other problems are why the press is going back to Hornady in the morning.

Otto
February 25, 2008, 06:23 AM
Has anyone else had this problem? Solutions? Thicker o-ring? Oversized die bushings? I really don't want to have to ship the press back...
The powder measure would back-out on mine as well.
I used an over sized o-ring which corrected the problem.
I haven't had any problems with the remaining bushings.
Personally, I don't really care for the LNL bushing system.
It takes me 6 seconds to remove a die from a conventional press.
With the LNL it takes 2 seconds. So I save 4 seconds per die...big deal.

pinkymingeo
February 25, 2008, 06:56 AM
We just had a thread about this. Quality control on the bushings is crummy. A thicker O-ring, or (for me) second O-ring will solve your problem.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
February 25, 2008, 08:01 AM
Sounds like either the female die bushing in your press is oversized or the male die bushing on your powder measure die is undersized. Evidentally they've gotten a run of out of spec bushings.

You have two choices:

1. Put a larger o-ring on the bushing. This works, but is probably not the best solution.

2. Call Hornady and get them to send you whichever bushing is out of spec. I suspect they will have researched it by now and figured out where the problem lies and will know which one you need. Replace the problem bushing and check to see if the fit is now the proper tightness.

Your problem should be solved.

Dave

Spartacus451
February 25, 2008, 09:03 AM
I bought a set of ten bushings with the press and I tried two of the unused spares with the powder measure and found that it didn't improve anything. Time to break out the calipers?

I sent Hornady an email and will call if I don't get a response in the next couple of days.

KeithB
February 25, 2008, 09:15 AM
My tool head never comes loose :D I looked long and hard at buying a LnL but those bushings concerned me.

pinkymingeo
February 25, 2008, 09:31 AM
It's not really a matter for concern, just part of the tweaking process. The male bushings seem pretty consistent, but there's a lot of variation in the females. O-rings provide locking tension in any case, and it's no big deal to go with a different O-ring to make things work right. Guys with other brands of presses face primer feed issues and powder drop inconsistencies. The only wide-spread gripe with the LnL is loose bushings, easily fixed for less than a buck.

mrwilson
February 25, 2008, 11:05 AM
Try some teflon tape on the threads. Someone at GTR had the same problem and this fixed it.

rino451
February 25, 2008, 12:16 PM
I have had the problem and my first squib ever. Luckily, the next round would not seat so no prob other that the inconvenience.

I'm tempted to make some sort of locking piece that will lock each bushing to the next to prevent the unintentional rotation. It would make it more time consuming to change dies, but at least depths don't have to be redone everytime.

Roccobro
February 25, 2008, 01:10 PM
It takes me 6 seconds to remove a die from a conventional press.
With the LNL it takes 2 seconds. So I save 4 seconds per die...big deal.

I think your comparison is missing the idea. Remember the additional minutes (and aggravation it might take) to re-setup the die for use without a bushing.

The "big deal" is the bushing allows a 2 second re-insertion and your ready to rock-n-load again. :D

Justin

Otto
February 25, 2008, 06:58 PM
The "big deal" is the bushing allows a 2 second re-insertion and your ready to rock-n-load again.
You can't "rock-n-load" if the bushings work loose. When you're forced to stop the reloading process and find a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place...you ain't saving time.

Roccobro
February 25, 2008, 07:12 PM
It takes me 6 seconds to remove a die from a conventional press. With the LNL it takes 2 seconds. So I save 4 seconds per die...big deal.

Sorry, that was what I was replying to, and that time saving effort was what the engineers at Hornady designed them for. Yes, you are correct in these few and rare occasions there are a problem. But in actual, non-problem arising use, the function of the bushings eliminating the need to "re-adjust" the dies, thus saving a whole lot of time when switching dies back and forth-especially in a single stage press. Come on, you know they are good at what they are designed to do. Please don't make me use any more commas in this post by countering a frustration induced mis-statement with another argument, please, , , ..! :D

Justin

Otto
February 25, 2008, 08:08 PM
No argument intended. But the LnL bushing system doesn't offer any substantial time savings. Screwing a conventional die in-and-out takes no time at all. Even on my single stage press, once my lock rings were set tight, there was never a re-setup of the dies. I could put a die in and out in 15 seconds.
I believe the designers envisioned a way to "sell" more equipment, hence the LNL bushing system. The convenience of the LNL system is marginal, the expense of extra bushings is undeniable.

jamz
February 25, 2008, 08:18 PM
You could talk to Eddie Coyle on NES about it. He has one and loves it. He might have some pointers.

PsychoKnight
February 25, 2008, 08:44 PM
Just use a rubberband to keep the powder measure CAPD from rotating and popping out of the bushing.

Hook it from the lower clamp ring to another die, or the mid-level case-feedre mechanism, if you have a case feeder.

Its not a big deal, really. Yes, there should have been a detent or some kind of resistance built into the bushing to require extra effort to rotate the male bushing - that will be LnL version two.

You have to realize the vision of the LnL was not just for the progressive AP press, but the single stage as well. Its a huge convenience for a single stage user to not have to spin out the dies between each process.




adweisbe
Senior Member



Join Date: 07-17-06
Location: MA
Posts: 368 Hornady Lock and Load doesn't Lock or Load!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I started using the CAPD (Case Activated Powder Die/Measure) today and found that the vibration of the powder measure working would consistently loosen the die bushing in the press. Eventually this leads to the bushing rising along with the CAPD and that produces a squib load. Luckily I caught it before endagering myself. I checked every station and found out that half of them had partially unlocked and were loose even when fully locked in.

Has anyone else had this problem? Solutions? Thicker o-ring? Oversized die bushings? I really don't want to have to ship the press back...

Spartacus451
February 25, 2008, 10:02 PM
Teflon tape did it. Rubber o-rings weren't in the ball park but the tape I could adjust for the wildly varying needs of each station. I kinda wish they had a place for me to wrench on the bushing so I could put more tape and really jam that sucker in there.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
February 26, 2008, 05:50 PM
I've had one of these presses for several years now. IF your bushings are in tolerance, you guys won't have any of these problems you're having. I strongly suggest you call Hornady and get them to send you in tolerance bushings. There really should be no need to rig up something to get the bushing to lock properly.

ALL (100%) of my LnL Bushings work as promised. Including the recent batch of male bushings I ordered this past year. I suspect the problem is with the female bushings in the presses. If you have bushings that are working correctly, check those against the problem bushings and get Hornady to send you new ones.

I know they'll honor their warranty, they always have with me.

Dave

Idano
February 27, 2008, 02:08 AM
+1 for what Dave said.

If you guys don't cowboy up and get those presses fixed you are never going to like them and continually whine forum about them. Like Dave I have run thousands of rounds through my Hornady AP with one L-n-L bushing coming loose: you have a defect part it occasionally happens with all the manufactures. Once you get the parts replace and press setup and have the aptitude for running and maintaining a progressive press you'll discover that the Hornady AP is a very good and reliable press.

No argument intended. But the LnL bushing system doesn't offer any substantial time savings. Screwing a conventional die in-and-out takes no time at all. Even on my single stage press, once my lock rings were set tight, there was never a re-setup of the dies. I could put a die in and out in 15 seconds.
I believe the designers envisioned a way to "sell" more equipment, hence the LNL bushing system. The convenience of the LNL system is marginal, the expense of extra bushings is undeniable.

Substantial is an arbitrary value. The whole nature of progressive reloading is to maximize your time creating shells and not to waste any of it on nonproductive motions. Granted, screwing in a die is not horribly time consuming but screwing in the powder measure is a pain but not as big of pain as unscrewing it when it has powder in it.

Spartacus451
February 27, 2008, 12:31 PM
I asked Hornady for a refund or a replacement and they refused. They said send the press back and we'll look at it. I already paid for a working press press. It's NIB and it doesn't work and they are expecting me to play the waiting game with them. I am returning the press to MidwayUSA. Hornady will have to explain themselves to them.

Their last chance:
Hello,
I've checked MidwayUSA's return policy and I could just return the whole press for a refund. If I return the press, then I'll also be returning all the Hornady accessories and parts I bought with it. I think it would be better for you, and more convenient for me, for you to send me a new frame with fifteen new bushings that have been checked for proper fit.

Once I have them, I will send you the frame and fifteen bushings that I have now. I do not want to ship the whole press to you and then sit and wait to see whether you will fix my problem, as I have had bad experiences in the past with unethical retailers who simply sit on the item for weeks and then return it unchanged.

If this is impossible for you to do, then I will simply return all the items in my $500+ order. I can't risk the 90 day return window running out while the press is in your hands. Please let me know whether I should process that return, or await the new parts.

Thank you

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:40:18 -0600
>
> Thank you for the note on the LNL AP press. We want to see the press.
> I need you to put the press in a box and I will send UPS to pick it up.
> They think the problem is in the press bushings. We will either
> exchange the press or change the bushings and check them.
> Drop me a note as soon as you have it ready and I will have UPS pick it
> up and bring it to us,
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> To: Webmaster
> Subject: received defective LnL SN 12077
>
> Hi,
> I bought an LnL serial number 12077 and I am having trouble with the die
> bushings working loose. Three out of the five stations have quite a bit
> of slop. The powder measure bushing is so loose that movement of the
> measure causes the bushing to work free after about six cartridges,
> producing a squib load which is EXTREMELY dangerous for the user. I
> tried using a new set of bushings but this did not solve the problem;
> the problem lies in the press itself.
>
> The machine is not usable in this state. I would prefer to exchange it
> for a new press, one hopefully in spec, but a refund would also be
> acceptable. If you choose to do an exchange, please ship the new press,
> along with a return shipping label for the defective press, to:
>

>
> Please let me know whether you will issue a refund or an exchange. I can
> be reached via email or cell phone, .
>
> Cheers


I saw in my bank account that they deposited my check for the free bullets. That is going to further complicate things.

pinkymingeo
February 27, 2008, 02:36 PM
I've had my LnL AP a couple of months now, and done about 3K rounds. The press exceeds my expectations, and I'm more than satisfied. It had a couple of loose bushings. Dealt with that, and it's taken care of. When I got it, it was kinking case retainer springs in a hurry. I discussed it with Hornady, polished a couple of rough edges off the subplate with a dremel wirebrush, and that was fixed. These are not world-class events, just minor stuff which isn't unexpected with a piece of equipment like a progressive press.

snuffy
February 27, 2008, 03:15 PM
Their last chance:

It would seem that you've drawn a line in the sand that you're unwilling to back down from.

We want to see the press.
> I need you to put the press in a box and I will send UPS to pick it up.

Hornady is willing to have UPS pick up the press so they can evaluate it, then repair or replace it. All you have to do is box it up. I'd say that would satisfy me. YMMV.

My only experience with Hornady service occurred just last week. I had a stuck case in a .223 new dimension die. During the threading/drilling operation, I bent the de-prime rod, decapper pin, and shattered the expander ball,(drill went through too fast, up into the die). I called, but that cutesy phone system left me hanging. So I e-mailed them last Thursday.

I got a reply on Monday that the assembly I damaged was leaving their plant that day! I already had a zip spindle for Hornady dies,(replaces the collet held rod), but the expander ball is unavailable anywhere, including the Hornady site.

Spartacus451
February 27, 2008, 05:08 PM
Hornady is willing to have UPS pick up the press so they can evaluate it, then repair or replace it. All you have to do is box it up. I'd say that would satisfy me. YMMV.
I'm not a bank here to lend them money while they get it right. I don't want to have to go without the press indefinitely when I could have a 650 in a week and a guaranteed refund. I have been taken advantage of too many times to allow that to happen anymore.

SDefender
February 27, 2008, 05:49 PM
Personally, I would just send it back to MidwayUsa and get a Dillon 650. My LNL and the many accessory bushings are 100%; never an issue. It could be they have sold so many of these due to the free bullet offer that quality control has slipped.

Luggernut
February 27, 2008, 08:30 PM
I think you should be more patient. The service from Hornady has been great in my experience. I enjoy the machine thoroughly. Is it perfect? No but it makes great cartridges.

Virginian
February 27, 2008, 09:02 PM
You choose not to trust them, which is your right. But, my opinion is, that if you send the press to Hornady, along with whatever bushings you feel may not be right, they will send everything back to you in proper working order in a short time. For all the times you have been screwed by a company, I bet they have been screwed by a customer 50 times as many times, and that's why they will not send you a new press, frame, etc. first.
Impasse.
You may as well start boxing it up for Midway, and I think you are going to eat some shipping charges there.

Idano
February 27, 2008, 09:47 PM
I don't want to have to go without the press indefinitely when I could have a 650 in a week and a guaranteed refund.

Odds are you won't be happy with the 650 either since it is mechanically similar to the AP. IMO Hornady basically copied the 650 and both presses and companies are excellent!

EddieCoyle
February 28, 2008, 08:59 AM
Hey Ariel,

Either the bushings are bad, the inserts are out of spec, or both are in spec but at the extreme edge of their respective tolerance bands. Hornady can replace the inserts - not a do-it-yourself job.

Let me know if you'd like to try some "known good" bushings that I have.

They won't send you a frame. There's a lot on that press that you can't take apart easily. You won't be able to just swap your stuff onto their frame.

I think the fastest way to resolve this is to send the press and bushings back to Hornady. You'll probably have your press back before Midway could even issue you a refund.

Regards,

JF

Spartacus451
February 28, 2008, 03:32 PM
By frame I meant the press sans powder measure and the other parts that come with it. The bottom line for me is that I am not willing to further inconvenience myself on their behalf. Return and exchange periods exist for a reason. When I called up MidwayUSA they were nothing but helpful and they offered to exchange or refund it even though I didn't have the original packaging for some parts. They even offered to refund shipping! I'd exchange it if I didn't think I would end up with a press with the same problem.

The only acceptable response for a NIB press that doesn't work is immediate replacement with a working press that has had the QC and gauging that should have been done the first time. The fact that I need the leverage of a large buyer like MidwayUSA to get taken care of properly says a lot. I have been stuck in the lifetime warranty loop too many times to fall into it again.

Why do we hold the firearms industry to a completely different standard then we do the retail industry?

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
February 28, 2008, 04:14 PM
While I agree your press should work and should be fixed, I disagree with your thinking it should be replaced immediately from the manufacturer. If you buy a car and it isn't perfect, the company doesn't give you a new car. Same with the press.

Retailers, for convenience sake, often exchange items that customers aren't satisfied while they're still new and you have that opportunity to do so with MidwayUSA. More than likely they'll send it back to Hornady to be checked out, re manufactured, then repacked to be sold as "like new" by either Hornady or Midway.

That said, the manufacturer's warranty doesn't offer such a service and neither does any other manufacturer's warranty. But since you have the opportunity with the retailer to exchange it, do so.

Finally, being impatient and not allowing the manufacturer to correct the problem isn't allowing them to provide warranty service regardless of manufacture. You can buy another manufacturer's product, but if it has issues, you'll get yourself into another "I want a new one now" situation. Eventually, thee will be no one to get a new one from, as you'll have went through all the manufacturer's.

Bottom line for me is, even though I think you should insist on the correct dimension bushings, I don't think you're allowing the manufacturer to warranty their product.

Master Blaster
February 28, 2008, 11:08 PM
Finally, being impatient and not allowing the manufacturer to correct the problem isn't allowing them to provide warranty service regardless of manufacture. You can buy another manufacturer's product, but if it has issues, you'll get yourself into another "I want a new one now" situation. Eventually, thee will be no one to get a new one from, as you'll have went through all the manufacturer's.



Very Good advice, Dave is speaking from personal experience.

Spartacus451
March 13, 2008, 04:58 PM
My "free" bullets came today, I refused shipment and told UPS to send them back.

They had lost the UPC for the box of dies and sent my order back to me. I resubmitted it with a letter explaining that they had lost the UPC and that they had been stapled together when I sent them in and that the UPC they returned to me was not the same UPC I had submitted, it was on different cardboard stock.

Fast forward to today. They deposited my check for shipping of 1100 bullets but only sent me 100 bullets. I could tell from the size and weight of the box the UPS guy showed me. The remaining UPC that they had not lost was for the press so there should have been 1000 bullets and not 100.

I am glad I returned the press for a refund and got out while the getting was still good. All told I am still out 70 dollars but it a small price to pay to manage future risk.

MinnMooney
March 13, 2008, 07:05 PM
When I was but a nyophite L-N-L user, the same problem cropped up... the Case Activated Powder Drop would turn loose and then the whole unit would rise with the casing so no powder would drop.

DAH! I used the wrench that comes with the L-N-L unit and loaded 500 more shells w/o a problem. I imagine that an extra or oversized O-ring would also work but about 15ft/lbs of torque worked too.

Come on people, let's not create problems where no real problem exists. I see one thread contributer actually is sending his unit back due to the fact that he doesn't want to have to buy a 50cent O-ring. GMAB!

Spartacus451
March 13, 2008, 07:14 PM
I used the wrench that comes with the L-N-L unit and loaded 500 more shells w/o a problem. I imagine that an extra or oversized O-ring would also work but about 15ft/lbs of torque worked too.
My LnL did not come with a wrench. The die bushing does not have a surface on which to apply a wrench so I assume you used the lock ring.

DAH!
I tried that with my own wrench. Didn't do a thing.

Come on people, let's not create problems where no real problem exists.
Yeah and jerking me around on the free bullet deal isn't a problem either. Neither are the hours I have spent sending letters and waiting on the phone.

I see one thread contributer actually is sending his unit back due to the fact that he doesn't want to have to buy a 50cent O-ring. GMAB!
To my knowledge there is no such poster in this thread.

I can only report the facts of the matter. How to read and find meaning in them is up to the reader.

David Wile
March 13, 2008, 10:53 PM
Hey adweisbe,

Don't worry, you are doing the right thing - for you. From your very first post to your last, it is obvious you will never be satisfied with the Hornady machine, no matter what they do to make you happy. I wonder, however, what you will do when you order a Dillon or some other machine, find a problem with it, and then go through the same thing with that manufacturer? Dillon and Hornady produce really good machines, and they usually do a pretty good job of fixing things for the customer. Some customers, however, just refuse to be satisfied.

I have had a Hornady L&L since they first came out about 15 years ago, and I have not had any personal experience with Hornady's warranty service. That is because I have never had any part break on my machine - none. And, no, I have never had any problem with any of the 30+ bushings I own - they all lock in place and stay there until I take them out.

I loaded shells for three decades on single stage presses. When I first bought my L&L, I had a pretty good understanding of reloading and how reloading machines worked. After unpacking the L&L, I read the manual quite a few times before I ever attached it to my bench. Once attached to my bench, I spent a lot of time reading the manual and observing how each process worked as the handle was moved down and up. When I first started to reload some cases, things went pretty smoothly right from the start. I learned about the primer feeder sticking and the problem with getting the last one or two primers to feed. Both problems were obvious, and I was able to smooth out the primer feed process, and I came up with a solution to the last few primers in the tube. The machine is a good machine, but it will not satisfy those who refuse to listen and learn.

There are many folks here who are very happy with their Hornady and their Dillon machines. If one listens to them, they can help one with a new machine.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

jeepmor
March 14, 2008, 01:02 PM
The thicker o-ring is probably the quickest DIY path for a long term fix w/o involving Hornady. I just snug mine with a pair of pliers. I don't muscle it in, but it is tighter than I can get them by hand to make them stay put.

I really like the system and converted my single stage to them and really like their repeatability. I know some of you are fine with just using the lock rings, but my RCBS lock rings still slip more than I like. I can jam nut them into the LNL bushing and they don't move.

Also, I removed the soft brass set screws and replaced with steel ones and a small BB fishing sinker between the die body threads and the set screw tip.

There are set screws with soft plastic faces available that'll do the same thing, I just couldn't find any.

hope this helps.

jeepmor

Phil A
March 14, 2008, 02:05 PM
adweisbe
I am glad I returned the press for a refund and got out while the getting was still good. All told I am still out 70 dollars but it a small price to pay to manage future risk.

I would suggest a replacement press such as a 550 or a turret. There is less to go wrong mechanically along with a lower risk of ranting. :) - Phil

Shoney
March 14, 2008, 02:49 PM
I did some searches on the posts by adweisbe.

Seems he is an expert, long time Dillon owner.

Is adweisbe perpetrating a hoax here????? Looks that way to me.

pinkymingeo
March 14, 2008, 04:19 PM
There has been a thread about O-ring fixes (which works), and I know from experience that if you tighten with a wrench on the lock ring a nuclear blast won't loosen the LnL bushing. I also know that Hornady has excellent customer service. They did exactly what Dillon would do, working with the customer until it was apparent he couldn't fix the problem, then offering shipping for a factory fix. The bullet mixup should be taken care of easily with a phone call. I don't get it, either.

1911NM
March 14, 2008, 06:04 PM
I am very pleased with my LNL-AP. Might one call Shenanigans?

David Wile
March 14, 2008, 06:27 PM
Hey Shoney,

After reading your post, I also read adweisbe's prior posts. He apparently has the same problems and complaints about Dillon as he has with Hornady. From what he has said in prior posts, he does not sound like much of an expert or long on experience. In one October 2007 post, he stated he was 23 years of age, and in another October post he states:

"I have an SDB. I size and prime on a Lee challenger with the Auto Prime II. This seats them to the bottom of the pocket every single time. You have little to no mechanical advantage when priming on most progressives. I did find that CCI primers were harder to seat to the bottom of the pocket and I now try and use Winchesters. Running already sized cases through the SDB takes far less effort, but the SDB harder to work then the 650.

When I called Dillon they just told me to lean harder. I hurt myself quite badly trying to get the press to seat the primers and it tooks months to heal."

He hurt himself quite badly seating primers on his Dillon press and it took months for him to heal? Get serious!

Is he perpetrating a hoax here? I don't know what he is doing, but it seems clear to me that this young man is not very mechanically minded. He obviously has problems with both Dillon and Hornady progressives, and he makes disparaging comments about customer service from both. Personal maturity may be a problem here.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

rino451
March 14, 2008, 11:02 PM
I will say that that you'll probably still get the 1000 bullets. Mine came two days after the 100 round boxes did.

hornadylnl
April 1, 2008, 05:15 PM
First thing for the bullet deal. If you'd have spent 41 cents more on another stamp and written a second check, you wouldn't have had the problem with the bullets. Whoever opens the envelopes doesn't know to inspect both side of each upc to see if someone might have stapled two upc's together. That will be true of anyone handling rebates, etc.

I have an LNL with around 10k rounds loaded on it. My die bushings lock down really tight. When I tighten the lockring down to the bushing, I have to use a wrench to get the die back out.

Next, I don't know what level of perfection you expect out of such a complex piece of equipment for under $400. Give a machinist a block of steel and tell him to do $400 worth of machining to it. You'd be appalled at how little metal has been cut off of it.

I've had to call Hornady's customer service a couple times. When I bought my press, I bought two used shell plates off of ebay before I knew that Hornady had made some improvements to their newer shellplates. If I had known that, I would have not bought the used ones and bought new ones. They went ahead and warrantied the plates and gave me brand new ones.

I talked to Bob Palmer personally about some adjustment issues and other stuff and he was as courteous as you could ever want from a customer service guy. I got the distinct impression that he is actually a guy that works with and on Hornady equipment, not some guy who sits at a computer with drop down troubleshooting menus and has no idea what reloading is.

I had some case feeder issues and described to him my problem. He sent me all the parts to completely replace my escapement and it has cured my problem. I've always received great customer service and expect to in the future if I ever need it again.

The first rule to buying a blue press is to never admit to a problem with it. Any of us with any experience reloading knows that it isn't true, but the blue guys sure would like us to believe that their presses are absolutely flawless.

hornadylnl
April 1, 2008, 07:56 PM
I'm sure he will come on here and complain about over all length inconsistancies due to tool head slop once he gets his 550 or 650.

I'm sure Dillon or Hornady would love to make a press much more reliable than what they do now and have the full capability of doing. Only problem is, is that nobody would buy it because it would cost $1000+. Reloaders are a very minute percentage of the population, thus a very small market. I'm guessing that the number of reloaders who are willing to spend $300+ on a press setup are less than 20% of people who reload. It's a catch 22.

Spartacus451
April 1, 2008, 08:00 PM
I'm sure Dillon or Hornady would love to make a press much more reliable than what they do now and have the full capability of doing. Only problem is, is that nobody would buy it because it would cost $1000+.
Oddly enough my 650 cost around $1050 fully equipped and shipped. I think you may be on to something here.

David Wile
April 1, 2008, 08:25 PM
Hey folks,

I just read the last adweisbe post, and I am dumbfounded. I know he may only be 23 years of age, and I may be a really old person, but I don't think I acted like this guy when I was 23 years of age. Come to think of it, thinking back about my two daughters growing up, I can state clearly that this guy's actions make my two daughters seem like they were some kind of rocket scientists when they were 23 years of age. I have four grandchildren from eight to fourteen years of age, and all of them seem to exhibit more maturity than adweisbe. I think some people are just not happy unless they are telling everyone else how unhappy they are.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

hornadylnl
April 1, 2008, 09:11 PM
I was talking about the base price of the press, not case feeders, extra caliber setups, etc. Who would fork out $1000 for a press only, no case feeder, dies, toolheads, powder measures, etc.?

Spartacus451
April 1, 2008, 10:24 PM
I have concocted an image that I think every one will agree describes what we all think but from a different angle.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m235/adweisbe/poster13523206.jpg

FTW!

David Wile
April 1, 2008, 10:32 PM
Hey Hornadylnl,

I don't have a case feeder on my L&L, and other than a bunch of extra L&L bushings, I would think my L&L is pretty much "stock" as I bought it. I know they have gone up in price since they first came out over ten or so years ago, but I think I paid not too much more than $200 back then. At $400 today, I would still think the Hornady L&L is a very good value compared to the Dillon 650 comparably equipped.

I would also like to ask you something about the Hornady (or Dillon) case feeder since I do not have one. Did you ever operate your L&L without a case feeder? And do you really rely on the case feeder that much? For me, I was never interested in a case feeder. Placing a case in the shell holder seemed just fine to me, but I will admit that I used my L&L for more than five years without ever buying any extra bushings. I just changed my dies in the five bushing that came with the machine. I never saw a need for either the Dillon die head system or the Hornady bushing system. Finally after reading so much about the utility of the bushing system, I bought ten extra bushings and did find them useful for some calibers.

I am not real quick to change to whatever the latest fad is, but I would like to hear your thoughts on the casefeeder.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

David Wile
April 1, 2008, 10:39 PM
Hey adweisbe,

Who are you kidding? In your previous posts on other threads, you bitched and bitched about problems with your Dillon equipment and how bad you were treated by Dillon. Now you are suddenly a Dillon rah rah cheerleader? How soon you forget what you have said previously.

If I had all the problems you have had with all your guns and reloading equipment, I think I would take up meditation or something more soothing to your mind.

Dave Wile

hornadylnl
April 1, 2008, 10:41 PM
ad,

Did you ever even own an lnl or are you just a blue koolaid drinking troll? I hope your 650 came with a wrist brace for all that pressure required to prime.

David,

I sized 1000 pieces of 223 brass yesterday with the case feeder. That is sizing only and it took about 45 minutes. I've never run without the casefeeder but I wouldn't want to either. It isn't perfect and requires a little help every now and then but way faster than reaching into a tub and loading each case.

snuffy
April 2, 2008, 02:19 AM
The first rule to buying a blue press is to never admit to a problem with it. Any of us with any experience reloading knows that it isn't true, but the blue guys sure would like us to believe that their presses are absolutely flawless.

That would be mine, never a problem. However this board and any other reloading board is filled with Hornady LNL owners sobbing over the POS they have to fight with to load shells.

I'm sure he will come on here and complain about over all length inconsistancies due to tool head slop once he gets his 550 or 650.

That's just bias BS! What slop are you talking about? The slight clearance required so the tool head can be slid into the machine?

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/garden03/websize/P2080001_edited.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/garden03/websize/P2080002_edited.JPG

In case you can't see what the dial indicator is reading, it deviates .013 from no pressure to full loading pressure while loading 45 acp. Most importantly IT IS THE SAME EACH TIME! That's called repeatability. Or a moot point, since it does not matter in the final outcome.

Roccobro
April 2, 2008, 04:04 AM
In case you can't see what the dial indicator is reading, it deviates .013 from no pressure to full loading pressure while loading 45 acp. Most importantly IT IS THE SAME EACH TIME! That's called repeatability. Or a moot point, since it does not matter in the final outcome.

Then why have I seen members here complaining about it, and more importantly, seeing a conversion kit to FIX this sloppiness?

IBTL. I think this thread was a setup by a boy with Blue.

Justin

TexasSkyhawk
April 2, 2008, 04:33 AM
When I called Dillon they just told me to lean harder. I hurt myself quite badly trying to get the press to seat the primers and it tooks months to heal."

I have concocted an image that I think every one will agree describes what we all think but from a different angle.

Must be done healing. I sure see a lot of silver primers in that picture.

Jeff

hornadylnl
April 2, 2008, 05:34 AM
I don't have anything personal against Dillon as I've never used one. The reason I mentioned the toolhead slop is because it has been brought up as an issue on here and other forums. We have what appears to be a troll on here who claims to have owned an LNL and I doubt he ever has. Now he is singing Dillons praises. There is no objectivity in any of his posts. He convieniently trashes all 3 of Hornady's selling points. The Lock N Load bushing system, their customer service and the free bullet program. The free bullet program is one of the bigger selling points for Hornady right now. Makes me wonder if this guy draws a paycheck from Dillon.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
April 2, 2008, 08:00 AM
Yep, sounding more and more like a false post by the original poster.

Spartacus451
April 2, 2008, 11:36 AM
Who are you kidding? In your previous posts on other threads, you bitched and bitched about problems with your Dillon equipment and how bad you were treated by Dillon. Now you are suddenly a Dillon rah rah cheerleader? How soon you forget what you have said previously.

Who says I forgot? Yall seem to have trouble understanding me so I'll quote it again.

I can only report the facts of the matter. How to read and find meaning in them is up to the reader.

I would buy a press from Macy's if it worked. Having a good or bad experience or multiples of them does not mean someone is a fan or hater of a manufacturer. They happened and that it is it. A single data point at most (or several in the case of my Hornady experience).

I have had both good and bad experiences with Dillon products. I have had good experiences with Hornady products other then the LnL. This thread isn't about those products. Just to emphasize it again, I don't care who makes my press or who I do business with as long as business is good.

It just so happens that I called Dillon the Saturday I was setting up the 650. The tech picked up before the first ring. I asked him what I should do about the two holes for the case feed post that were not drilled all the way through. He said I could finish drilling them with a 1/4 bit, problem solved.

I then asked him about a 9MM SDB shell plate that had notches worn into it by the pawl that were causing it to index late and catch on the primer slide. He said he would send me out a new one.

I then asked him about my issues with the large primer slide on my SDB. I reminded him that this was the third or fourth time I had called about this. I told him that the primer seating punch in the large primer slide did not protrude above the shell plate as far as the one in the small primer assembly and I thought that was the source of high and difficult to seat primers. He said there was a set screw that allows you to adjust the height of the primer seating punch.

I told him I recalled that screw and that I remember reading about it in the manual and adjusting it according to the instructions and that I thought it was an adjustment screw and not a set screw and that it adjusted the height of the primer cup. The tech said that it was indeed a set screw. I finished the conversation and later in the evening went to check it out. Sure enough the primer punch in my press was set up for the screw to act as an adjustment and not as a set screw. I compared the manual that came with the press to the recent one from Dillon and realized they had changed the design of the primer punch so that screw is a set screw instead of an adjustment screw. I even had the new design punch in my spare parts kit!

I sympathize with the Dillon techs because they have to keep up with several different designs that have evolved over the years. That doesn't excuse the first two-three times they dismissed the issue and said lean harder instead of listening to what I had to say. All they had to tell me was that there was an adjustment screw for the primer punch and everything would have clicked a year ago.

Must be done healing. I sure see a lot of silver primers in that picture.

Jeff
A. It's a joke. (http://echosphere.net/star_trek_insp/insp_captkirk.png)
B. Those were loaded on a 650, not an SDB
C. I didn't load those.
D. It's a joke. (http://echosphere.net/star_trek_insp/insp_captkirk.png)

David Wile
April 2, 2008, 12:35 PM
Hey folks,

Snuffy says, "...this board and any other reloading board is filled with Hornady LNL owners sobbing over the POS they have to fight with to load shells." In reference to a Dillon 650, Hornadylnl stated that adweisbe would be complaining "...about over all length inconsistancies due to tool head slop..." I have the Hornady L&L, and to Snuffy I would say he is wrong about the L&L. It is a great press and works very well for me. I do not have a Dillon 650, but I have a friend who does, and I have spent some time using his. I don't know anything about overall length inconsistancies with ammo produced on the 650, but I do know that the ammo I made on it seemed for my purposes to be pretty much the same as the ammo I made on my L&L. Both of those machines are great machines, and to bash either one is just plain wooden headed.

I really like my Hornady L&L, and I think it was a better value than the Dillon for my purposes. However, I would not think of telling my buddy his Dillon 650 was not the better press for his purposes. And folks, I suspect there are a few other progressive machines out there I have never used that are also great machines.

It seems that human nature is such that we often are inclined to think whatever we choose for ourselves is the best for everyone else. That may be human nature, but we should recognize it for what it is and try to be more objective in our consideration of other folks choices.

I have to admit that I have a prejudice toward most of the Lee products because I think they are not made as well as others such as RCBS, Dillon, Hornady etc. In spite of what I have just said, however, I recognize that Lee puts out a product at a price that a lot more people are able to afford. Even if I am correct that Lee's products are not as strong as the others I have mentioned, the fact is there are a lot of folks out there making a lot of ammo on Lee presses, and they have been doing so for many years. I would not think of telling a guy who has use the same Lee press for 20 years that he made a wrong decision because my RCBS press is stronger and will last longer. As a matter of fact, I swear by a couple of Lee tools that I have found very useful, especially their hand held Auto Primer.

Blue, Red, Green, whatever, they all make a good product. We are silly when we argue that "mine is better than yours," and we are really wooden headed when we tell the other fellow that his is junk. I think we are much better served when we tell what we like about one machine more than another and avoid trashing either.

As to adweisbe and his whole blabber about making a "joke," everything coming from him should be considered a joke. His are the words of an immature person whose statements are inconsistent throughout.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Spartacus451
April 2, 2008, 01:08 PM
As to adweisbe and his whole blabber about making a "joke," everything coming from him should be considered a joke. His are the words of an immature person whose statements are inconsistent throughout.
Why is the immature person the one who hasn't made any personal attacks throughout the thread?

Roccobro
April 2, 2008, 03:28 PM
Why is the immature person the one who hasn't made any personal attacks throughout the thread?

Good question. Think about it. Nothing personal and I would elaborate that "conclusion" but I feel this thread has run it's course and personal attacks are not allowed in this polite and civilized forum. ;)

Justin

hornadylnl
April 2, 2008, 05:34 PM
David Wile,

You said it perfectly. I'm sure Bentley owners like to sit around and bad mouth Mercedes because they are junk. I only mentioned the toolhead slop issue with Dillons because it has been noted as a problem by Dillon owners and there is a kit made to fix the slop problem and to remind the OP that no press is perfect.

I've been very vocal about my opinion of the LNL versus the Dillon machines but have not bad mouthed Dillon other than price. In my arguments I even give the 650 the benefit of the doubt that it may be a slightly better press than the LNL but the higher price for that slight improvement isn't worth the extra cash to me.

David Wile
April 2, 2008, 09:23 PM
Hey Hornadylnl,

Like you, I am also vocal about my L&L. I like it better than the 650, and considering the difference in price between the two, that makes it even better to me. However, I have used the 650 and I know it is a great machine, and I understand why my buddy owns his. Having admitted that, however, I clearly do prefer my L&L and think it is "better" than the 650 - for me.

In many ways, I tend to lean toward more simple things, ideas, and solutions to problems. Just like the fact that a case feeder for my L&L has never appealed to me. I don't criticize those who use them, but there are a lot of folks who think I am a bit behind the times without a case feeder. I finally caved in and found the L&L bushings to be useful for some calibers, but I doubt if I will go for a case feeder.

Then again, one should never say "never."

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Luggernut
April 2, 2008, 09:39 PM
It seems that human nature is such that we often are inclined to think whatever we choose for ourselves is the best for everyone else. That may be human nature, but we should recognize it for what it is and try to be more objective in our consideration of other folks choices.

In many cases people seem to have the need to justify their purchases by bashing other products. Weird. I have a LNL and wish I could try a Dillon for comparison to REALLY see how they compare. I think it's great that Dillon has a great competitor now... it's good for ALL of us... there's the ultimate irony.

Roccobro
April 2, 2008, 09:51 PM
I have a LNL and wish I could try a Dillon for comparison to REALLY see how they compare.

My next press will be a SDB. I'm not brand specific, but my LNL compared to a 650 was the best choice under my circumstances at that time. I don't regret my choice either. ;)

Justin

Johnny Guest
April 2, 2008, 10:03 PM
- - - One that some would say has gone on for too long already.:(

CLOSED

Johnny

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