[BOOM-BOOM]

Ok I may not be the brightest star in the sky, so please bare with me.

From what I read the 357 is rated as the #1 one shot man-stopper. That being said, then why is it when someone asks about carrying a 357 in the woods they're told that a 44mag would be better..

My Question is, what can a 44mag bring down that a 357mag cannot..I realize it may take a few more rounds with a 357mag then it might with a 44mag. but its the end results that matter.

Also what if I had a rifle chambered in 357mag, would that level the playing field any????

[Lucky]

No thread off-hand but a couple guys did some math with .357 carbines and found ballistics approached that of 30-30's. .357 did great out of a longer barrel, if you find the thread please post it as I'd like to read it again too, one talked about different lengths of barrels and even measured what length 9mm begins to slow down.

For .44 the point is why carry in the woods. Defence against people or animals? Against bear it's assumed that there won't be time for several shots, so the ones that hit have to hit hard. .44 goes deeper heavier faster. Bears are tough and move fast and bullets have to mess them up badly to stop them attacking, even headshots can glance off. Nothing is certain, every situation will be different, but even .44 is thought to be less certain to stop a bear in than desired. Where I am the bears are protected now so not hunted much, but those that do just use rifles.

[American_Pit_Bull]

My Question is, what can a 44mag bring down that a 357mag cannot..I realize it may take a few more rounds with a 357mag then it might with a 44mag. but its the end results that matter.
Hell, why do our troops carry .223's when it isn't even considered a good deer round? In some states it is illegal to hunt with a .223 because it is under-powered...

.357mags are good against human targets and .44mags aren't usually in the same rankings because of the lack of data. You will not catch many LEOs carrying a .44mag. Especially today.

[DENALI]

The .357 magnum in it's full power 158gr loading was designed to exit a 4' barrel in the vicinity of 1500fps actual muzzle velocity. That will penetrate the skulls of plains Buffalo and any errant Brown/Grizzly Bear.
The .44 is considered way to heavy of a load and demonstrably harder to control to be of any real value against human targets, of course it will also work just fine in that capacity if called on for it.........

[hnk45acp]

Bears, mountain lions, etc are a lot harder to bring down than people, thus the .44

[Timthinker]

DENALI just make my point. In terms of raw power from comparable barrel lengths, the .44 Magnum would prove superior. But what about rapid, accurate successive shots? In this instance, the .357 has the edge. To make a .44 Magnum revolver controllable, one would need to load it with .44 Specials or lighter magnum loadings. Please do not misunderstand, the .44 Magnum is a powerful handgun round, but there are other factors to consider as well.


Timthinker

[shooter429]

And improvements in factory ammo such as Buffalo Bore, the .357 still cannot produce the same raw "horsepower" (for you car junkies) as the +P+ .44, making it less than ideal for Bruin encounters involving species such as Ursus arctos horribilis/Ursus arctos arctos, for example. Reliable .357 wheelies are great for use against lighter bodied predators, however, such as Homo sapiens, Canis lupus and C. domesticus, as well as Felis concolor and Ursus americanus, to name a few of the more dangerous critters you might meet.

In short, you would be foolish to chase AK brown bear with a .357 or even try to repel one with it or any lesser caliber, but if you are living in the South, the .357 is plenty for red wolves, coyotes, Cougar and hippies. :)

For those of us that do encounter the big bears from time to time, we need the power that only a .44 +P+ or larger handgun can deliver.

Shooter429

[MikePGS]

.357 did great out of a longer barrel, if you find the thread please post it as I'd like to read it again too, one talked about different lengths of barrels and even measured what length 9mm begins to slow down.
I think this might be the thread your looking for http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=152659

[Confederate]

The matter is as simple as is relativism.

A .44 slug will hit a man and go through him, exiting with great force and wasting whatever is left of the big bullets on whatever's left. The .357 125 gr JHP will generally hit a man, then stop somewhere in the body, having expent all of its considerable energy in that person. If you could figure out a way for a .44 mag to stay in the human body, then it would be a super duper man stopper, but no luck so far. Anyway, it's all about energy transfer, and the .357 125 gr JHP does the best job.

[BOOM-BOOM]

Yes I understand that the 357 was a better man stopper then the 44 because of the over penetration thing.

What I want to know can the 357mag be used in the wild as a replacement of the 44mag.

Or would it take a 357mag lever to even the playing field.

[MechAg94]

I wouldn't say it is a direct replacement at all, but unless you are worried about big bears, I would say it is fine for animal defense. Like others said, use the larger rounds.

There are no bears where I grew up. The worst threats run on two legs. Dogs are probably the next worst. The only relative of mine that ever got killed in those woods was killed by two legged animals.

[glockman19]

Hell, why do our troops carry .223's when it isn't even considered a good deer round?

Because it takes 2 soldiers to rescue one fallen soldier so it's strategically better to wound than to kill. Also, as discussed in other threads, you can carry more 5.56 than .308 and finally 5.56 can kill.

To addres the OP, I specifically have a .44 mag revolver & lever acvtion when camping in the sierra. .357 can certianly kill many animals, deer, pig but I wouldn't want to take the chance with a bear. You may get good velocity from a lever action but the stopping power of the .44 over the .357 with Mountain lion, Elk, Bear is undeniable

[JShirley]

Because it takes 2 soldiers to rescue one fallen soldier so it's strategically better to wound than to kill.

There is NO historical basis for this as a driver for the 5.56*. More gunshop commandoing.

The .44 Mag could be more effective as a manstopper with a lightweight, rapidly expanding bullet.



*Instead, the reason for the 5.56x45mm is a 300 meter cartridge that can be carried in bulk, and was more controllable in full auto.

[wickedsprint]

Aren't most deer bigger than us..so while a .223 might work ok on people, it makes sense why they might not be ideal on a larger animal..I guess.

[jmr40]

I sold all of my .357's a few years ago and decided it was easier to just use the .44 mags. My 4" 629 is only slightly larger than the 686 and GP-100 I sold. With good .44 special ammo it is my "opinion" that the .44 is a superior manstopper than the .357 with much less recoil and muzzle blast. If I need a handgun for hunting or protection from wildlife the .44 mag. loads are a big step up from the .357.

[Ben Shepherd]

A few things:

Momentum- A 240-300 grain slug out of a 44 will go A LOT deeper penetration wise than a 158 grain out of a 357 given similar slug construction and compareable velocity. Will also be more likely to go through anything, including bone.

So if the BIG bear decides to chew on you and all you have is a bad angle shot? I'd have much more confidence in the 44.


Diameter-A bigger hole is a bigger hole. No way around it.

Environment-Urban setting means that overpenetration must be considered. Out in the wilderness, it's much less of a concern.

The average woodland critter that does try to eat you is a whole lot bigger, far tougher, and much more motivated than your average urban perp. He also doesn't understand brandishing very well. If it comes to that point you will have to shoot, showing him your gun does nothing.

Concealment-A Dirty Harry cannon around town is honestly a pain. Trust me on this, I CCW a 7.5" 357 redhawk occasionally. Just because I can. Outdoors, who cares if it shows. And you can wear enough belt to hold it up without sticking out.

[Gunz]

Well, if each round were rated at 1200 fps, the 44 mag at 240gr will be like a Suburban, and the 158gr 357mag will be like an EQuinox.

The Equinox will slam into the target and crumple and wrap itself around what it hits.

The Suburban will slam and mangle, but will probably also bore through what it hits, if there is not enough mass to capture and absorb all of the sububan's mass.

I admit that 44 mag can be overkill for mammals under 200 lbs.

[dirtdog]

Diameter-A bigger hole is a bigger hole. No way around it.

That is the way I see it also.

[_N4Z_]

There is NO historical basis for this as a driver for the 5.56*. More gunshop commandoing.

1985-6, Ft Sill OK. US Army basic training. Drill sergents given the task to train 70 some recruits, including myself, did in fact make such statements concerning tumbling rounds and wounding. I was there, I heard it, it is part of my history.

Now I am not saying they were right and you are wrong, but I will say there is something more to it than just gunshop commandoing. Sure there may not be in any official doctrine, but it was discussed.

For a long time the gov't denied the existence of neutron type nuke warheads. I saw them first hand, in bunkers, in then W.Germany. That same gov't used your tax dollars to train us to deploy them. Hoorah! ;)

[slzy]

i would think any thing that moves in a combat zone will get shot till it stops.

[GJgo]

I admit that 44 mag can be overkill for mammals under 200 lbs.
So then.. That cottontail rabbit last weekend? I didn't need the .44? :P

In Ohio, I imagine that a .357 would prove more than versatile enough for the woods and the street. In other locales something with more juice may be preferred.

But then, shouldn't everyone have at least one gun that they don't really need?

[Quoheleth]

for Bruin encounters involving species such as Ursus arctos horribilis/Ursus arctos arctos, for example. Reliable .357 wheelies are great for use against lighter bodied predators, however, such as Homo sapiens, Canis lupus and C. domesticus, as well as Felis concolor and Ursus americanus, to name a few of the more dangerous critters you might meet.

Shooter429: Latin...showoff :p

Pax Vobiscum...

Q

[polekitty]

Now, here comes an opinion from someone with zero experience with big things like bears. Going back to the reason our armed forces switched from .38 to .45acp (many years ago)---I think if I came nose to nose with a bear I’d want the .44mag. Like you guys say, the .357 would likely kill him, but wouldn’t the.44mag come closer to stopping him (even if it didn’t instantly kill him) before he stopped you?

[MechAg94]

223 can kill a deer just fine. It just requires more accuracy to make sure it is a quick and humane kill. Larger more powerful cartridges make bigger wounds and are more forgiving for bad shots.

[BigBlock]

I think a lot of people overrate the .44 mag recoil and the problem of repeat shots. I don't know, maybe a lot of you have little girl wrists? :neener: Even though I'm generally a bad shot because I can't see and I'm over caffeinated...I can unload six rounds in my single action .44 in the same general area (say, the size of a bear) in a very short amount of time.

[Lucky]

Mike thanks for the thread link man.

JShirley
:
Because it takes 2 soldiers to rescue one fallen soldier so it's strategically better to wound than to kill.
There is NO historical basis for this as a driver for the 5.56*. More gunshop commandoing.

The .44 Mag could be more effective as a manstopper with a lightweight, rapidly expanding bullet.



*Instead, the reason for the 5.56x45mm is a 300 meter cartridge that can be carried in bulk, and was more controllable in full auto.

You're incorrect, though if you have source material that says otherwise it's welcomed of course.

"COL. MARTIN L. FACKLER, USA. Col. Fackler is a surgeon with extensive expertise
in military weaponry and ballistic wounds, and is currently director of the
United States Army Wound Ballistics Lab. He described the purpose, function and ballistic affect of military munitions and provided the military definition of
"assault weapon". Col. Fackler testified that such military ammunition was
intentionally less powerful and thus less lethal than sporting ammunition. He
explained that the purpose of such military ammunition is to inflict only a
wound on the enemy causing other enemy soldiers to stop their participation in the battle when they go to the aid of their comrade. He explained that the
military definition of assault weapon was a "select fire" weapon which he
described as a weapon having a switch which would allow the user to shoot the weapon in the fully automatic mode (multiple shots with a single pull of the trigger) or in semi automatic mode (one shot for each separate pull of the
trigger). "

"STOCKTON -- THE FACTS by Martin L. Fackler, MD

Madman shoots 35 in Stockton schoolyard; 30 of those hit survive. That
would have been the appropriate headline. Why did the media dwell almost
exclusively on the five that did not survive?
A military type AK-47 rifle was used. Full-metal-jacketed military type
bullets were used. That 86% of those children recovered from their wounds comes as no surprise to those who understand this particular bullet's wounding potential. Those familiar with the international laws governing warfare recognize that the military full-metal-jacketed bullet is specifically designed to limit tissue disruption -- to wound rather than to kill. Purportedly
mandated for "humanitarian" reasons by the Hague Peace Conference of 1899, this type of bullet actually proves to be more effective for most warfare. It
removes not only the one hit from the ranks of the combatants, but also those needed to care for him. Full-metal-jacketed bullets are prohibited for hunting; they are too likely to wound rather than kill. Most full-metal-jacketed AK-47 bullets do not deform significantly on striking the body, unless they strike bone. They characteristically travel point-forward until they penetrate 9 to 10 inches of tissue (if a bullet yaws, turning sideways during its tissue path, it causes increased disruption). This means that most AK-47 shots will pass through the body causing no greater damage that produced by handgun bullets. The limited tissue disruption produced by this weapon in the Stockton schoolyard is consistent with well documented data from Vietnam (the Wound Data and Munitions Effectiveness Team collected approximately 700 cases of AK-47 hits), as well as with controlled research studies from various wound ballistics laboratories."

[Firepower!]

Glockman19 is right on the money when he talks about wounded soilder issue. This is what at least is taught at the military academy.

However, we should remain focused on 357 v. 44 in this thread since I see 223 creeping in and then some other will as well.

357 v. 44
1. Simple: Both will stop a man
2. Yes 44 will bring down bigger body mass such as bear
3. Since talking six shooter 357 might not get chance to place all six to bring down a dangerous game.

Conclsuion: self defense...both are good. But if you want powerful bullets that will peneterate more (such hiting in the car, bullet proof jacket etc) 44.

A few days back there was a gun fight here, where two one time friends got crossed with each other on the road and decided to shoot it out. One had a 9mm Glock the other had .30 Tokerav. .30 guy got out of the car first and reach the other guy before he could exit the car. The Glock guy sitting in the car got chance to shoot once before .30 guy grabbed his gun and shot him 9 times, 7 from one mag and 2 from another, and then went off to hosipital.

Three days later. The guy who was shot once with 9mm is still critical while the other who was shot 9 times is out of hospital.

So better bullet more power counts.

[customizedcreationz]

Ok can of worms, but I bought a glock 29 10 mm for my UP Michigan adventures. Its small and packs a good wallop and I get 10 rds ( plus 1 15 rd full size ). I ve heard alot of people say this is an excellent setup for backwoods fun and a capable bear stopping device.

I am also looking into getting a 44 mag, just to add to my collection. But I find alot of the info here interesting.

Thanks guys

[ChrisMG]

I reckon a 10/22 would kill a bear or even an elephant. All about shot placement (which is even more important to keep your wits about you when something is bearing down on you with obvious intent for violence).

I witnessed my dad shoot a deer last fall with a Ruger GP100. The 158gr .357 round went completely through the chest cavity at 50 yards. When we opened the deer up for gutting we had to hold the carcass up to allow the internals to drain out. The round literally liquefied everything in the chest cavity with the exception of a bit of lung. I'd say that's pretty darn impressive.

customizedcreationz, that 10mm will take care of anything in U.P. The bear will leave you alone unless you scare a ma and her cubs. I have heard of a couple wolverine sightings there abouts, and they do have a few cougar. Wolves will also leave you alone. Good luck, gorgeous and wild area most people in the US (including Michigan!) don't realize we have.

[Lucky]

I think the people who've hunted with .22s snuck up and popped the animals in the eye, or missed a bit and tracked them for days. I cannot possibly imagine them using them on charging beasties.

Not sure a .22lr could possibly even kill an elephant.

[BOOM-BOOM]

Lucky, usually a bee sting won't kill a man. But get a swarm on you and its bye-bye lights out....:D

[Confederate]

What I want to know can the 357mag be used in the wild as a replacement of the 44mag.
No.

If it could, there wouldn't be two calibers.

The .41 attempted to bridge the gap, but it ended up doing neither as well as either. With the .44, you can always download it to where it's just a bit more than a .44 Spc. Or, conversely, you can use a 158-gr JSP or even hard lead .357 to burrow deep into your target if it's an animal (Massad Ayoob has used the 125-gr JHP on deer with success, though I'm not sure he'd recommend it for all around use.) With bear, you really want a .44, and you really want to know where to put the bullet. (Many people think the head. Good guess, but no cigar. Best bet is to hit the critter right in the mouth or nose, as the brain is directly behind the nose. Even a .44 will often ricochet off the skull.)

[BOOM-BOOM]

I guess what I'm really trying to do, is narrow the field down to one single caliber. So that when the..... hits the fan,I'll be ready for anything.

The one thing I don't want is a bunch of guns all in different calibers. I want to keep it simple. Thats why I was asking about the 357/44. think the 44mag is way to much for SD. this is why I carry a 357mag. But if I need a little more power I was thinking 357mag out of a Lever action.

I've read that a 357 from a lever is about the same as a 30-30. And I believe a 30-30 would bring down just about anything I would run across here in the states.

Now, Is this a correct assumtion on my part, or am I full of whats hitting the fan:)

[Firepower!]

Boom-Boom
I think you are ok with 357 for self defense. However, in case you need more power for penetration purpose then you will need 44. Do not forget that 44SPL rounds are out there if you want less power in you 44. With 44 you have nothing to worry about. I can say the same for 357 unless hostile is behind steel sheet such as car or in a similar circumstances.

[Ben Shepherd]

BOOM-BOOM:

Good call on the 357 combo. That's one of my favorites. The 357 out of a lever is indeed very close to equalling the 30-30, although strict attention to proper slug construction is needed.

On top of the shared ammo benefits, think also along the lines of "rounds per pound" or "rounds per cubic foot"

[brownie0486]

From the buffalo bore website:

"About Buffalo Bore 357 Mag. ammo

Our 357 mag. ammo adds more power than ever before to the 357 mag. This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver—this includes J frames. This ammo is no harder on your gun than any other normal 357 ammo. Please don’t phone us and ask if this ammo is safe in your gun. It is, providing your gun is in safe condition for use with any normal 357 ammo.

We don’t recommend this ammo to be fired in super light alloy revolvers as bullets may jump crimp under recoil, but the ammo itself wont hurt these super light weight revolvers. These revolvers are simply so light that the recoil is severe enough to cause crimp jump.

The below velocities are offered so that you can see what guns/barrel lengths give what velocities with this new 357 mag. ammo. You’ll notice that new S&W revolvers with short barrels are often shooting faster than older S&W revolvers with longer barrels. The new S&W revolvers are very good and are made with equipment that makes them more consistent and faster than the S&W revolvers of yesteryear.

Make special note of the Marlin 1894, 18.5 inch barrel velocities. Item 19C/20, supercedes 30-30 energies!!!

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1707 fps

5. 18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!"

I have two 357 long guns myself that use the 180gr Hard Cast loads. A tricked out Rossi 92 20" stainless and the new Persoli Lightening with color case hardened frame, oct barrel 20".

From their website as well:
Photo of the 180 grainers.

Plenty of horsepower onboard?

Brownie

[JShirley]

1985-6, Ft Sill OK. US Army basic training. Drill sergents given the task to train 70 some recruits, including myself, did in fact make such statements concerning tumbling rounds and wounding. I was there, I heard it, it is part of my history.

Heh. I like your "evidence".

2001-2002, Fort Benning GA. US Army ITB OSUT. Drill sergeants given the task to train x some recruits, including myself, did in fact make some of the stupidest, least-informed firearms-related statements concerning all kinds of stuff, including one DS claiming that "the AK-47" could fire 7.62 NATO, and he had done so. I was there, I heard it, it is part of my history.

Lucky,

Let's think about this. Just a bit. Maybe just a teensy-tiny bit more. If I say, "there is no historical basis (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4056463&postcount=100) for this as a driver for the 5.56", evidence from you contrary to this would be either high-ranking military types who would dispute this, or statements from historians who say otherwise. You do not provide this, instead giving me a statement from a retired medical type who was not in any way involved in this process, and whose work convincingly demonstrates that 5.56x45mm is typically more lethal than 7.62x51mm...but the quote you give is actually talking about the difference between hunting ammunition and military ammunition! What was your point again? :D

[Nematocyst]

Now returning to the OP's question: .357 mag v. .44 mag.
(Hint: other calibers deserve a different thread.)

From what I read the 357 is rated as the #1 one shot man-stopper. That being said, then why is it when someone asks about carrying a 357 in the woods they're told that a 44mag would be better..

<snip>

Also what if I had a rifle chambered in 357mag, would that level the playing field any????Speaking only for myself (ymmv):

I own .357 mag in revolver (currently mod 65) and carbine (1894C).

I'm very comfortable with either for what stalks my neighborhoods: home in the city to outback at camp,
but griz doesn't walk in either neighborhood where I live.

Why? The .357 handgun is comfortably controllable for double taps.
The carbine will add velocity and take any predator around here,
plus deer at 75 yds if I'm hungry.

If I decide to camp where griz walks (say, Northern ID or AK),
I may carry .357 mag for the 2-legged predators
but .45-70 for the larger 4-legged ones.

What's my point? Buy what ever you need for your neighborhood.

If you change neighborhoods, change guns.

[JShirley]

The real problems with using sidearms chambered for larger than duty-size rounds are of size and controllability (which have already been mentioned). The .357 can be had in more convenient platforms, and has less recoil in similar-sized platforms than the .44 Mag.

When used against light-skinned bipeds- again, as mentioned- the .44 typically overpenetrates, unless it has been loaded with a rapidly expanding and/or fragmenting round. If you anticipate a very large-boned animal threat, a nonexpanding .44 round could be just the ticket, if you can't carry a longarm. If you CAN carry a longarm, carry more medicine: 12 GA slug, .30-06, .45-70, .35 Whelen, .300 WinMag (be sure to load decent bullets in the faster rifle calibers, or you might not get the penetration you need at close range. There was a study done by Alaskan wildlife some years ago, which found that many powerful rounds were inadequate penetrators at close range).

On the subject of expansion/penetration: Nem, you also have to be sure you're using the right bullet, from a carbine. That additional velocity could either make a much larger hole, or penetrate deeper. Possibly both, but you'd want a very sturdy bullet. EFMJ would be my first choice, if you could find it, since tests have shown it doesn't fragment, just penetrates deeper with additional velocity.

[Nematocyst]

JS,

Reads like excellent advice to me. ;)

[Ben Shepherd]

If you want NON-varmit preformance out of a 357 rifle, stick with at least 158 grain slugs. Two choices that I've driven over 2200 without them blowing up in any test medium I've shot them into: Hornady XTP FP and Speer Gold Dot.

[Mike Sr.]

"357 Mag Vs 44 Mag

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok I may not be the brightest star in the sky, so please bare with me.

From what I read the 357 is rated as the #1 one shot man-stopper. That being said, then why is it when someone asks about carrying a 357 in the woods they're told that a 44mag would be better..

My Question is, what can a 44mag bring down that a 357mag cannot..I realize it may take a few more rounds with a 357mag then it might with a 44mag. but its the end results that matter.

Also what if I had a rifle chambered in 357mag, would that level the playing field any????"

-------------------------------------------------------

I've not read all the posts and another may have touched on this my point, if so I regret duplicating.

You basic premise I highlighted in RED is wrong...

A particular load for a 357mag is rated as prime man-stopper.
Big difference

----------------------

"My Question is, what can a 44mag bring down that a 357mag cannot..I"

An innocent bystander after the 44 passes thru the perp!

--------------------------------------

"Also what if I had a rifle chambered in 357mag, would that level the playing field any????"


Rifle vs handgun...you'd certainly have sighting plain advantage if distance was a factor. A handgun hollow point bullet out of a rifle will certainly have plenty of explosive value.

[Nematocyst]

If you want NON-varmit preformance out of a 357 rifle, stick with at least 158 grain slugs.So, if 158s are minimum ("at least"),
what would be optimum?

In fact, imagine an optimum rnd
for revolver (say, a 3" or 4") and carbine. What is it?
(Yeah, let's play "if you could have only one" for a minute.)

[MCgunner]

.357s come in easy to tote, easy to shoot packages. .44, not so much.

I get about 1200 ft lbs out of my rifle, 20" barrel. Buffalo Bore shows about 1600 ft lbs IIRC which pushes the traditional 1800 ft lbs of the .30-30. But, I haven't equaled that from the rifle. Actually, most .30-30 factory loads are anemic and don't make much more'n 1600 ft lbs. BUT, the .44 out of a rifle is IMPRESSIVE out to a hundred yards. The .357 is plenty for deer hunting to 100 yards, though. I still consider the .30-30 quite superior for said application, though. I do get about as much energy out of my 20" .357 as I get out of my 12" .30-30 contender. That contender, loaded with a 150 grain Nosler BT, is pushing near 1000 ft lbs at 200 yards, though. The .357 is down below 700 ft lbs at 100 yards, advantage .30-30 even out of a short barrel. The bullet BC is just plain superior. And, hornady lever evolution out of a rifle is pretty impressive.

I think Buffalo Bore loads are pretty impressive as factory loads go and while I can equal them with my 180 grain load in a revolver, the powder I use to do it (AA#9) apparently is too fast for the rifle. My 158 grain load, a cast, gas checked SWC in front of 14.5 grains 2400 is quite adequate in rifle or revolver. Out of my 6.5" Blackhawk it makes 760 ft lbs and out of the rifle right at 1200 ft lbs. It's killed two deer out of the revolver and one at about 80 yards from the rifle. Out of a 4 inch gun it still gets about 600 ft lbs. It's accurate and a good load and since I cast the bullet, is cheap to shoot. I can load 50 rounds for something under $2 where Buffalo Bore costs a buck a shot IIRC. Yeah, I'd rather shoot handloads, thanks.

BTW, I carry 140 JHPs in my SP101 and 3" Taurus 66 for defense. Used to carry 125 grainers, but those 140s are more accurate and less abusive to the senses and to the gun and still make 550 ft lbs out of a 2.3" barrel.

[JasperST5]

I think it's important to also consider where you are going to shoot it. I've heard people say they got permanent hearing damage from shooting a .357 magnum indoors without protection. I can't imagine what a .44 magnum would do. I wouldn't use either round for home SD.

[BOOM-BOOM]

Jasper, I wouldn't use either one for Home SD. I use a S&W 457 45acp. But I do carry a 357mag

[JShirley]

I think it's important to also consider where you are going to shoot it. I've heard people say they got permanent hearing damage from shooting a .357 magnum indoors without protection. I can't imagine what a .44 magnum would do. I wouldn't use either round for home SD.

Firing any unsuppressed firearm inside without protection will cause permanent hearing damage.

I've been present for both an ND from a .270 and one from a .44 Mag. Neither pleasant, but neither would have taken me out of the fight from blast and noise alone.

J

[Bezoar]

Most people dont load their 357 up for heavy hunting. THe majority of people seem to go favor the leightweight jacketed hollow points in the 110-125 grain range. Sure those are proven to be useful on PEOPLE. but if im in the woods and a grizzly comes after me. id rather have a 200-240 grain jsp or lead slug that will penetrate the heavy structure of a bear.

THough if i go in bear country, id be packing a .35 remington, which is better then both calibers in question.

[Nematocyst]

But let's be clear: "bear country" is potentially very different from "griz country".

If I'm in black bear country (which I am), .357 mag is enough.

If I'm in griz country (which I'm not), it wouldn't be.

[kmrcstintn]

I might be off kilter here, but...I have yet to encounter any factory loaded 158 gr .357 magnum that replicates the original 1500 fps from a 4" barrel; too many idiots to potentially drive them through scandium framed & lightweight steel framed snubbies causing detrimental damage to their hands & wrists; given between a 180 gr hardcast lead bullet measuring .357" in diameter or a 300 gr hardcast lead bullet measuring .429" in diameter...gimmee the larger & heavier...

I've shot .44 mag 300 gr Hornady XTP's from my 629 PowerPort...I found them to have less recoil & muzzle blast than 240 gr standard factory loads...among the magnums, I find Remmie 180 gr sortpoints & Hornady 300 gr jhp's to recoil less than the 240 gr softpoints from Winchester & Federal and the 240 gr jhp's from Hornady;

with that said, my favorite magnum caliber is .357 magnum due to the practicality & availability of ammo choices...I am just starting to get in .44 magnum and I understand why alot of folks cherish the caliber...lots to offer if you want to go bigger than .357 mag

[spoonman72]

"Aren't most deer bigger than us..so while a .223 might work ok on people, it makes sense why they might not be ideal on a larger animal..I guess"

Wow don't know what kind of deer your breeding but the ones around here in the south run around 100 pounds give or take unless you hitting a monster buck, Altho it is true a deer's hide is harder to pentrate then human skin they are in no way bigger than we are.

[wickedsprint]

I was asking, I didn't know the average size. I think they might be bigger up here than 100lbs though.

[Ben Shepherd]

Nem, and others interested: I think one of, if not the best, for all-around use in a 357 rifle/revolver combo would be the hornady 180 xtp. Slightly overkill for urban ccw, but for anything else, enough. At least enough of a slug for anything you should use a 357 on. That slug starts expanding at 1100, and still holds together above 1800.(figured that out with the rifle and the 357 max awile back.)

[Evocatii]

I live in the Colorado Rockies and find that I am quite comfortable with carrying the .357 while camping and hiking. I believe the round is good medicine for local bear and other critters. Follow-up shots must be considered for the quicker critters like mountain lion. I consider myself a good shot, but lions are quick and stealthy. Moderate power with manageable single hand operation if things ever got to the point of the old rough and tumble.

[KodeFore]

When I used to volunteer with SAR in WA we relied on the buddy system for bear defense. In order for this system to to be effective it is imperative that you chose a buddy who runs slower than you do..... How likely is it that you are going to be attacked by a bear in the wild? The one time I have seen a bear in the wild, when we looked it, it looked at us, we all went about our business. Clearly a 44mag has more more critter stopping power than 357 mag. In my opinion between which is better for bear defense between 357 mag 44 mag is I say spend less money get more power and get a 12ga. ( If you are tough enough or dumb enough to go messing with bears, a little extra weight shouldn't bother ya... ) As for the sub thread of why the army chose the 5.56, I have no fact but an opinion on that as well... Its a flat shooting round easy to teach to young folks who more than likely than not have no previous shooting experience.

[hamourkiller]

To date I have shot no people and pray it stays that way!

I have shot multiple deer in the 80# to 130# live weight class with both revolvers and carbines in .357 & .44 mag.

In each case, the .44 has had more visible effect upon the animal than the .357. The .44 has a much larger wound track and exit wound. Bleed out is quicker and blood trail much easier to follow. The .357 is an adequate deer round while the .44 is a stone cold deer killing round @ woods range.

How will this relate to home defense? I suspect the .44 would perform in the same manner when compared to people. With the added benefit that if your enemy is a large 250# + man the 44 will punch his ticket as well.

A 180gr 44 hpt will be running the same speed as a 125gr hpt. A 240gr hpt will run the same speed as a 158gr hpt. In all cases the 44 has more of everything you need in a self defense situation.

Due to the size and weight of 44mag revolvers vs the 357's I carry the .357 most times. For a nightstand revolver I go with the 44 mag since I am not carrying it.

I like the S&W mod 29 and or the Ruger redhawk 5 inch models. I am sure both will pull the internals out of a bad guy just like they do on deer.

I do not feel under gunned with either choice. Each has its good points. The main one being that each will let me fight my way to my rifle!

[tourer]

357 magnum transfers it's energy much better than a 44 magnum.
The reason being is, with 125 grain JHP for the 357 and 240JHP for the 44 mag, the 357 mag is more likely to stay in the body ( of a human ) thus transfering ALL it's energy, whereas the 44 mag is more likely to go right through ( a human ) the body, not dumping all it's energy.
Both rounds will certainly kill what they hit but the 357mag will put them down quicker with more energy dump and greater trauma to the body.

[Ready2Defend]

I guess i have never warmed up to the recoil of the 44 mag. I do shoot a lot. 45acp, 357, 40s&w handguns; 30-06, 308, 223, rifles, 20 and 12 gage shotguns. Any of these I can go through 50-100 rounds at any range session. But with the 44mag (borrowed from a friend - several different sessions) It just isn't fun. If I had to I could build up to it. But would I develop a flinch/jerk? My thought is to bring as much gun as you can handle well. It probably take 100's of rounds (1000's?) fired through a gun to reasonably believe it can be handeled well by you. If I were goung to Bear country I would carry the 6.5" barred 357, and If my impression we I was at moderate to high risk a long gun as well.

Recoil comparison:
Cartridge (Wb@MV) /Pistol Wt. (lbs.) /Recoil E. (ft. lbs.) /Recoil V. (fps)
.357 Mag. (158 at 1250) /2.75 /8.7 /14.3
.44 Mag. (240 at 1450) /3.0 /22.5 / 21.9
(values from www.chuckhawks.com )

It's not just my imagination, both the recoil energy and recoil velocity are a lot more for the 44mag.

[Nematocyst]

I guess i have never warmed up to the recoil of the 44 mag.That's pretty much where I'm at, too.

.357 mag is stout enough for me (a smaller person), and feels like enough power for what I want.

I'd develop a flinch with .44 mag, and the double taps would be slower.

YMMV.

Nem, and others interested: I think one of, if not the best, for all-around use in a 357 rifle/revolver combo would be the hornady 180 xtp. Slightly overkill for urban ccw, but for anything else, enough. At least enough of a slug for anything you should use a 357 on.Sounds like good reasoning, Ben.

I'm going to explore those rnds for both revolver and carbine.

When I used to volunteer with SAR in WA we relied on the buddy system for bear defense. In order for this system to to be effective it is imperative that you chose a buddy who runs slower than you do.....One of the best laughs of my day.

[hamourkiller]

Exit wounds are very important in how fast some one or some thing bleeds out. The larger the exit wound the better. Handguns kill with bleed out or central nervous system damage or both. Please shoot some animals with each round and make your own decisions. Do not let paper theory blind you to the reality that the .44 mag has much superior terminal performance compared to the .357 mag. I have seen enough difference that I have learned to handle the recoil and keep a 44 by my bed. Yet I have great confidence in the .357 also. Either is a great self defense round.
In a rifle there is no room for argument, the 44 carbine has no objectionable recoil and is the same sized gun as the .357 carbines yet delivers much superior performance.
Once again I strongly urge you to shoot some animals with each type of cartridge and weapon.
In the ever ongoing battle of the 30-06 VS 270, I have no opinion as I can observe no difference in their game killing ability. In the .357 vs .44 mag comparison, the .44 mag is an obvious better killer in all platforms.

[Leadhead]

Pretty rare to be faced with a charging bear but if it happens then no doubt bigger is better.
The main thing when dealing with bears is confidence.....if you can maintain your composure facing a bear with a .357 mag and give the bear the space to leave you will be fine.
I've met lot's of black bears in the woods armed with only my wits and calm demeanor and have only had a few grumpy bears snort and hiss at me....most wanted nothing to do with me.
I think if you travelled back in time a couple hundred years with your stoutly loaded .357 you would be king of the hill!

[MCgunner]

I think if you travelled back in time a couple hundred years with your stoutly loaded .357 you would be king of the hill!

Yup, certainly tops the black powder loaded .44-40. :D

[JesseL]

357 magnum transfers it's energy much better than a 44 magnum.
The reason being is, with 125 grain JHP for the 357 and 240JHP for the 44 mag, the 357 mag is more likely to stay in the body ( of a human ) thus transfering ALL it's energy, whereas the 44 mag is more likely to go right through ( a human ) the body, not dumping all it's energy.
Both rounds will certainly kill what they hit but the 357mag will put them down quicker with more energy dump and greater trauma to the body.

And everyone knows it's far worse to be run over by a toddler on a tricycle than it is to be hit by a Mack truck. The tricycle will stop on your ankle and dump all it's energy, while the Mack truck will keep going like you weren't even there, hardly losing any energy.:rolleyes:

1. The "Energy Dump" theory of incapacitation is seriously flawed at best. Energy doesn't kill or stop. Holes in vital organs do. The wider and deeper the hole the better.

2. Even if the energy dump theory made sense, a 44 that goes all the way through and only loses two-thirds of its energy may still deposit more energy than a 357 that deposits all of its energy.

[MCgunner]

Here we go again, another big slow vs small fast thread and a Fackler know it all....:rolleyes:

Well, I can't agree that the .357 is better than the .44 mag, either. You gotta match your load to the job at hand. You don't go totin' the 320 grain hard casts for self defense and you don't tote 180 grain .357s either. The .44 has well over 1000 ft lbs, more energy to dump. Not a lot of street data on the round, though, since not many carry it, especially police, I mean, outside of Dirty Harry. I certainly don't. I don't often carry the .357, actually. Can't handle the weight of my SP101 in pocket carry.

[Vern Humphrey]

The .357 was designed in the 1930s as a police cartridge. It has primarily been offered in handguns that are designed for portability. It represents, in a revolver, the best compromise between being powerful and being easy to carry.

The .44 Magnum was designed as a hunting round. Almost all .44 Magnum revolvers are much heavier and bulkier than .357s, and for that reason, it never caught on as a police or self-defense cartridge (sorry, Dirty Harry.)

Given the different uses to which the two cartridges are put, their ammunition has evolved differently -- light, violently-expanding bullets for the .357, heavy, deep-penetrating bullets for the .44 Mag.

If you want a self-defense cartridge in a revolver, the .357 is tops. If you want to hunt deer, elk, and so on, the .44 Mag is the way to go.

[Nematocyst]

If you want a self-defense cartridge in a revolver, the .357 is tops. If you want to hunt deer, elk, and so on, the .44 Mag is the way to go.I agree with Vern if we limit the conversation to revolvers. (Which IS the main topic of this thread.)

However, if one is willing to consider adding a matching carbine to the revolver choice, then the options increase a bit.

Speaking only for myself, I want my revolver in the woods mainly for SD against biped predators; I'm not concerned about (griz) bears where I live. (And I'm not concerned about black bears at all. As I've said before, as a long time backpacker/mountaineer who's encountered black bear many times, they're just a non issue on my list.) Thus, my choice of .357 mag.

Yet, I also want to be able - in a pinch, if not on a regular basis - be able to take a deer. Hence, I also have the .357 mag carbine that's small, light and easy to carry on hikes or even on longer walks. (It fits completely inside my backpack, or even more conveniently, straps to the side of my pack.)

As one can learn in other threads, the .357 mag out of a carbine will readily take deer (even if not bear or elk) at reasonable distances (keep it inside 75 yds, it's ballistic performance is not much different from .30-30).

Energy dump or not, I feel fine with the combo.

Now, if I was walking in griz country, I might sing a different tune ...

[Fear Night]

Saying the .357 Mag is the "#1 one-shot manstopper" is kind of misleading. How many shots of a .50BMG can a man take?

What they are trying to say is out of the main "service calibers" the .357 Mag has produced the most amount of observed one shot stops. Since the .44 Mag isn't considered a viable service caliber it wasn't even in consideration.

[Huddog]

Aren't you glad you pay your money and you make your choice. So if you like the .44 or the .357 you can have either or both.

[saturno_v]

No thread off-hand but a couple guys did some math with .357 carbines and found ballistics approached that of 30-30's.

What they were smoking???......:eek::eek::eek:

With the same barrel lenght a 30-30 rifle runs circles around a 44 magnum, never mind a 357...

[Nematocyst]

Where'd you get that quote, saturno?

Here's a thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=160161) that (favorably)
compares .357 mag w/ .30-30
for deer at 75 m or less.

With the same barrel lenght a 30-30 rifle runs circles around a 44 magnum, never mind a 357...Of course it does.

That was never in question.

But it seems that
you missed the point.

Therefore, just to be clear,
inside 75 yds, the ballistic performance of
.357 mag is not much different from .30-30.

After 75 yds, .30-30 excels.
But that was never in question.

As an owner of
.30-30 & .357 mag rifles (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=69216&d=1197845338),
I'll put a 5-spot (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=341173) on that.

[saturno_v]

I got that quote from the first reply of this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=343008


What do you exactly means by "within 75 yards the ballistic performance of a .357 is not much different than a 30-30"???

If you mean that at 75 yards you drop a deer with both rounds and the deer will not notice much of difference :evil::evil::evil: I can agree with you...but that does not mean that they have the same ballistic performance....not even close....these are 2 totally different concepts...like saying that point blank in the head of a man the ballistic performance of a 9 mm are the same of a 375 H&H..;-)

Regards

I do not own a 357 but I do own a 30-30...this is my Marlin 336 in 30-30 :D:D:D

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6163/marlin336fullyn2.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=marlin336fullyn2.jpg)

[Nematocyst]

Saturno, drop by the 336 club (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=258000).

I think it'd be cool :cool:
to continue this discussion over there
so as not to drag this one too far OT.

:)