[Hawk]

Just saw my first wire-tie on a used S&W. Specifically a 29-2 nestled in a disintegrating blue plastic thing in a nondescript wooden box. It exhibited a pretty healthy turn line.

Wazzup with a wire-tie on a piece that already has a turn line, I inquire? Evidently, the intent is that the turn line not get any turnier lest the new owner elect to treat as an investment.

How depressing.

Given my singular nearly spectacular sorry luck with buying product that can't be checked out I've sworn off the practice. Colts had pretty much already been positioned such that they were either remote or wire-tied and thus outside what I could buy but it appears nicer pre-lock S&Ws are starting to join them.

Anybody else noticing wire-ties starting to show up on boxed (but not new) Smiths?

[Sistema1927]

Was this at a gunshow? If so then it might be a result of the requirements of the show organizers.

[Hawk]

Nope - LGS in west Ft. Worth.

It's by no means a universal practice in the area but I wouldn't be surprised to see it spread.

[cpirtle]

I would just ask them to remove the tie so you can properly inspect the gun. Most times I have seen this they will do it, even on high end collector guns. They may ask you not to do something [eg: whatever they are trying to avoid with the tie]

I think a lot of shops tie them up stop some poser from spinning the cylinder and slamming/flipping it closed, can't tell you how many times I have seen someone do that. :fire:

[dbarale]

After seeing some idiots spinning the open cylinder on a pre-27 before slamming it shut with a flick of the wrist I can understand the cable tie...

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Our local shop does that for that exact reason (after talking to the owner, he and I are friends). He also does it with automatics (runs the tie through the trigger hole and over the chamber) so that when someone attempts to close the gun, the tie would slip into the now open hole and prevent the slide from slamming home without a round to attenuate the slide velocity. Neat idea tho.

[Hawk]

This was my first time in this particular shop - he's the latest in my quest to find a good local 'smith. Since the guy doesn't know me from any random tire-kicker he didn't volunteer to remove it and I didn't ask.

If they get the "timing-challenged" model 57 right I may ask to inspect although I'd actually prefer one that didn't have the decomposing blue fuzzy plastic that S&W felt compelled to inflict on certain wood boxed models. One doesn't feel right just throwing it away as it surely accounts for more of the price than I care to imagine. Nah, I'll toss it anyway.

Guaranteed I'll buy something there if the 57 gets fixed - gotta support whoever's keeping the 'smith on staff.

[Evyl Robot]

OK. Newbie moment. I understand how slamming/flipping the cylinder closed can damage the yoke hinge, but what about spinning the cylinder? Is this bad, and why? Frankly, I tend to hold a gun like a baby, and am probably not going to do anything stupid to it, even out of ignorance, but please do enlighten. Thanks!

[MortalWombat]

OK. Newbie moment. I understand how slamming/flipping the cylinder closed can damage the yoke hinge, but what about spinning the cylinder? Is this bad, and why?I don't think spinning the cylinder by itself is a problem (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but this action is usually then followed by the dreaded flick/slam shut action. These two together is what is often seen in movies and TV.

[Cowtown Cop]

On a revolver, especially a nice blued finish S&W revolver when you spin the cylinder it leaves a drag mark in a ring around the cylinder. The cylinder stop is spring loaded and drags on the cylinder. SOOOOO when you give it a good spin and slap it shut like you are an old west movie cowboy it makes a nasty clicking sound that is the cylinder stop trying to lock up in the notches but the cylinder is spinning to fast for it to fully engage. It could possibly bend or break the cylinder stop too.

[cpirtle]

The two generally go hand in hand and just show a lack of respect and/or knowledge for the firearm.

There's no real reason to quickly spin the cylinder and it could cause abnormal wear on the cylinder from rubbing the stop that is milled into the frame.

[Cowtown Cop]

Dont ask me why this had to be tested but when my department was transitioning from revolvers to autos we had stacks of crates of S&W model 64's sitting around. We took one of them and opened the cylinder and used an air compressor to spin the cylinder up to a high rpm. Then flipped the cylinder closed and listened to the buzz saw sound as it slowed down and stopped. Then we removed the cylinder stop and the cylinder to inspect for damage. Model 64 is a tough gun. This was evil and a heresy to a fine firearm. (hope nobody bought that gun)

[Hawk]

Nothing wrong with spinning the cylinder when it's open - it's a good idea to check for ejector rod run-out and spinning the thing is pretty much needed to eyeball for run-out.

Spinning it while closed ala Jerry Miculek's DVD requires a deft touch on the hammer to keep the cylinder stop in the frame and isn't an art that should be practiced on SEG (somebody else's gun).

But I believe the post was referring to the Hollywood "spin it up like a turbine in the open position, flick wrist to slam shut and allow the inertia of the spinning cylinder to rotate it into battery". The spinning while open is okie dokie so long as it stays open.


OT: @ BattleChimp Potemkin: Shadowfist?
Gotta love a CCG with a card titled "Bag full of guns".

[Evyl Robot]

SOOOOO when you give it a good spin and slap it shut like you are an old west movie cowboy it makes a nasty clicking sound that is the cylinder stop trying to lock up in the notches but the cylinder is spinning to fast for it to fully engage. It could possibly bend or break the cylinder stop too.

Like putting your car in "park" when you are still doing about 20? I see. Don't tell him I said so but, I had to physically stop my brother from doing the cylinder flip, and then explain laws of inertia to him, and how they apply to precision machinery. Please note that he's a bright guy. He really should have known better. It's just the "movie cowboy" deal all over again. Only, in his case, it's Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

[cpirtle]

I use to work with a guy, who was pretty intelligent, but every time he saw one of my knives he'd ask me to see it because he knew it would almost always be something different. Invariably before he handed it back to me he had to do some pretend knife fighter routine where he pretended to jab at someone. (Even with a 3" slipjoint!)

This is the same type of guy you never want to hand a good revolver to.

[Virginian]

I always like to open the cylinder, hold it out, and really spin it, and act like I am going to slap it shut.... only to gently grab the spinning cylinder with my off hand. Makes you wish you had a camera. Works equally well with a mint Colt SAA 2nd gen. Quickly half cock and spin the cylinder, and act like you are going to pull back to half cock, but then grab it with the off hand.
I would NEVER mark someone else's expensive firearm, and usually it's a good icebreaker when I tell them that. Gotta have some feel for what the guy is like first I might add. :-)

[Sistema1927]

Nope - LGS in west Ft. Worth.

Ewell Cross?

One of the places that I frequented when I lived in Ft. Worth in the 80's. It was there that I first saw a Glock G17.

[Gator]

...decomposing blue fuzzy plastic...

Don't toss it! The fuzzy blue stuff is flocking glued to the plastic tray. It can be cleaned off and the tray reflocked; the glue and flocking can be found at hobby or fabric stores. Those boxes are worth a few bucks...more with the tray.

[asknight]

I always like to open the cylinder, hold it out, and really spin it, and act like I am going to slap it shut.... only to gently grab the spinning cylinder with my off hand. Makes you wish you had a camera. Works equally well with a mint Colt SAA 2nd gen. Quickly half cock and spin the cylinder, and act like you are going to pull back to half cock, but then grab it with the off hand.
I would NEVER mark someone else's expensive firearm, and usually it's a good icebreaker when I tell them that. Gotta have some feel for what the guy is like first I might add.

I don't "act" with my firearms, and don't let anyone else. So, in this case, your "icebreaker" would result in me taking my firearms out of your hands and asking you to leave, now.

I do hope that your "acting" doesn't result in an accident requiring you to purchase the firearm you just damaged all because you wanted to put on a show. Put on the shows with your own weapons, please.

[StrawHat]

+1 to what asknight said.

If you need to act like a jerk do it with your own property.

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff generally buys used guns by preference because they represent better value for less money, and I have enough experience to know what to look for and not get burned – at least most of the time… :uhoh:

I seldom encounter a gun that’s tied, but if that happens I ask the owner to remove it long enough so that I can inspect the potential purchase. If the answer is, “no,” I move on to something else. The only exception is if the price is so low I can’t get hurt, and that seldom happens.

If dealing over the ‘net I am very careful to pick who I buy from, and only use sources that have a proven record for reliability and honesty. Consequently I have found some excellent buys, and have yet to be disappointed.

I actually look for guns that have problems – so long as they are minor or cosmetic in nature. Pointing out the faults often lowers the price, and repairs are generally inexpensive, often only involving a minor adjustment.

[Hawk]

Don't toss it! The fuzzy blue stuff is flocking glued to the plastic tray.

Much like the blue plastic that my 57 came with, chunks of the plastic have split and fallen into the box offering a unique "swiss cheese" appearance that's more noticable than the flock going bald in spots. I'll never guess what possessed S&W to combine a nickel's worth of cheesy plastic with a servicable wood box and top shelf revolver. They surely weren't thinking of collector value when they selected a material with a limited shelf life before it would grow brittle and self-destruct.

A piece of sugar pine, some blue felt, glue, a router, 20 minutes and tossing the blue plastic would do wonders to improve the looks of the box as well as its utility. Ironic that this would like reduce the value.

Odd bunch, we firearms enthusiasts. In another shop I was witness to what I believe was a 100.00+ premium paid for a stainless Python due simply to its being accompanied by 5 cents worth of styrofoam and ten cents worth of ratty, faded, dilapadated brown cardboard sleeve.

If there's a "collector gene", I must have been born without it.

[Hawk]

Ewell Cross?
Elk Mountain

[Hawk]

If dealing over the ‘net I am very careful to pick who I buy from, and only use sources that have a proven record for reliability and honesty. Consequently I have found some excellent buys, and have yet to be disappointed.

In what must simply be karmic payback for an offense I can't recall, the "timing challenged" 57 came from our mutual bud in Alaska. It was an estate arm, in the box with ratty blue plastic and unfired or nearly so. I likely could have asked him to check it out but he's typically circumspect about "turning" the "unturned".

Lesson learned - we "shooters" (at least me) should probably ask that the thing be checked if we know the guy but I doubt anybody could have guessed it would suffer from both a "notchy" cylinder release and glaring timing issues. If the new smith up to bat can fix it it'll cost just slightly more than the freight would have cost me to S&W.

But I'm the guy that bought two nasty Pythons in a year's time before giving up on them - that's two more rattty examples of the breed than most people will ever see - possibly the only two extant, if most of what I read on the internet is correct. I should have derived a clue from that episode.

But then there's the nice Dick's Special, t'other 57 and the 5" nickel 27 that keeps the hope alive ;)

[Old Fuff]

Post a partial serial number for the '57. I have a hunch it was made during the middle 1960's to the middle 70's. During the Viet Nam war era the demand for S&W handguns far outstripped the supply, and quality suffered as the company tried to meet demand. The current owners are in no way responsible for guns made during that period, but they have been very good in fixing problems related to questionable workmanship, and doing it under warrantee.

Returning a problem gun to them has an advantage, in that they fully inspect it – and have the necessary jigs, fixtures and other equipment to discover issues that a private gunsmith might miss or overlook. After determining everything that’s wrong they fix whatever, and aren’t limited to a particular issue that brought the gun to them in the first place. I suspect that a large part of your timing problem is related to the way the ratchet teeth were fitted (or not as the case may be) and correcting it might involve a new extractor. If so, that’s usually something that has to be done at the factory.

Looking back over the (many) years, I have bought guns from friends, but under circumstances where I could examine them first. All of my “sight unseen” purchases have come from dealers who offered a money-back guarantee, and were knowledgeable enough to spot, and correct issues before the gun was offered for sale – or at least note them in the description.

Concerning the box, I would rebuild the interior after dumping the cheap plastic. Unfortunately from the 1960’s on American manufacturers have been focused on cost (and quality) reductions, and this sad fact is not limited to firearms.

[sloppyjoec]

YEa, so uh you're not to let the slide of an automatic snap back without a round in there? :uhoh: i think i have to go apolige to the gander gun guys now.

"no wonder they sold me a gp100 instead

[Hawk]

Fuff, SN is N33442x

'tis a 57-no dash.
Thanks

[Old Fuff]

Fuff, SN is N33442x

Ah so....

About 1976 - 1977

That would be in the Bangor-Punita era (1965-1984) when quality control was a bit more lax then usual. :(

I would seriously consider returning it to S&W - at least for an opinion.

[Hawk]

Thanks.

We'll arrange for a trip home. Maybe this guy will do it for USPS so I don't get stuck for air freight when he finds it's the ratchet and not the hand. I didn't figure it was a good sign that one of the chambers was more out of time than the others...

I guess if the much revered pinned and recessed articles sometimes suck I'm possibly better off with a different hobby. First ratty Pythons then a ratty pinned and recessed S&W - gotta be nature's way of telling me something. :(

...or time to buy a lotto ticket.

[Old Fuff]

If you call Smith & Wesson's customer service department they will likely provide you with a prepaid shipping label. That way the gun will go back and forth on their, not your, dime. It is likely that if they determine that the problems resulted from sub-par workmanship the repairs will be covered under their warrantee - even though you are not the original buyer/owner.

During the years that the Wesson family controlled the company (1857 - 1965) product quality was outstanding. But during the following years they became a small part of someone else's larger corporate empire. At the same time the Viet Nam war years brought demand that they couldn't possibly keep up with, and manufacturing economics - including but not limited to skyrocketing labor and other overhead costs slowly but surely brought an end to most of their fabled handcrafted workmanship. Even so, the greater percentage of their production was more then satisfactory. The problem is that when quality is inconsistent you have to pick and choose on a case-by-case basis.

This is a sad commentary on the situation during the last quarter of the 20th century, and the following years of the 21st, coming to the present. But I can think of nothing else in the way of American manufactured goods that are any different. Today’s companies – including, but not limited to gun manufacturers – are run by bean-counters who make decisions based on the bottom lines on their spread sheets, and those that don’t are not in business for long.

Even so, both Smith & Wesson and Colt have made an outstanding effort to make good by repairing or replacing those guns that shouldn’t have left the factory in the first place, although they are under no legal obligation to correct that which was made before their time. For this, credit is due.

I am sorry about the disappointments you have endured, and I understand your feelings. I suppose you might seek other hobbies, but I know of none that provide the satisfaction that this one can. If you should decide to continue I suggest that you visit www.armchairgunshow.com for a start, and subscribe to their catalogs. The site, and company are owned by Jim Supica, who co-authored Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson (a book you really need to have) and is also a member of this forum. His considerable expertise is always available to you.

My relationship with them has been a happy and productive one, and while I can’t guarantee that you would never get a lemon (although I never have), I will say that the matter will be resolved to your satisfaction, and they have a fine offering of vintage Smith & Wesson, Colt and other high quality firearms of every description.

[Moonclip]

I do like Old Fuff, if tied and shop or owner refuses to untie, I don't buy unless a real bargain! I got a revolver recently that was consignment, the younger guy working at the shop refused to remove it and was giving somewhat of an attitude, trying to impress me on how tough and tactical he was, his attitude improved a bit after I bough the gun though, I think he though his (wife/gf?)was taking a shine to me! Another employee untied it but said not to work the action! I was allowed to look down the bore.

After I bought the gun, my state has a waiting period, I worked the action and found it was maybe a teeny bit out of time but it was still worth having taken the gamble on. Keep in mind this was a revolver tagged at $225, though worth more the shop didn't have a clue and the shop even tied used Taurus revolvers in the sub $200 range.

[Old Fuff]

You might be surprised at the number of times a gun dealer or pawn shop get a scarce or rare variant of a common gun, and not knowing the difference price it against the value of the most common one. That’s why it pays to have a few reference books. Sometimes one good deal will more then pay for the book(s). ;)

I understand why some dealers tie their guns. I once watched a total jerk try to impress his lady friend by fanning a 1st generation Colt Single Action, and in the process broke the trigger and chipped a notch off of the hammer. One such experience is enough to justify having ties. But a shop’s sales personnel should be trained well enough to detect the difference between a serious and responsible buyer vs. someone that is out to play with the merchandise.

[Hawk]

I'm guessing there's not much point in taking a road trip before local dude even looks at the 57. If it's a factory botch, I'll see what S&W has to say. If it's been "enhanced" by a previous owner and looks to be expensive to return to factory condition (either by S&W or anyone else) I'll have it flame cut and retired.


If there are bargains around here at pawnshops, they've been well hidden. Ours tend to take common variants and price based on the rarest variant listed, then double it. The closest pawn shop tags High Point C9s at 400.00 - doesn't move very many but then I guess he doesn't have to.

[Old Fuff]

It remains to be seen, since I have no way to examine the revolver, but I suspect at worst it would need a new ejector and possibly a hand - plus labor. This of course assumes that S&W doen't pick up the tab. If so it shouldn't be all that expensive. The way older N-frames are going up in value I think you'd recover the cost fairly quickly.

The really big money would be in replacing a frame, cylinder or barrel - and this isn't likely.

[Hawk]

I'd actually be happy if it turned out to be a factory botch. My concern is the thing having been previously dremeled by or at the behest of a previous custodian. That drops S&W's probable participation in cost to zero and opens a whole can of possibly expensive stuff.

I doubt I could tell - I still haven't had my first sideplate off but the Jerry Miculek DVD has joined the Kuhnhausen manual along with the cup ended punches and Brownell's S&W-specific bit set. Soon we'll set off down that road.

I probably don't have an option in that regard. The two local 'smiths I've tried haven't left me with a warm fuzzy (although the one that couldn't fix one of the Pythons didn't charge for trying). The third has the 57 (for right now). Sending half of what I buy to S&W doesn't seem a viable option and Cunningham hasn't reopened the waiting list.

I recently discovered that two 686s can both pass the "check out" but still be more different than alike when compared to one another. One assumes they could both be fine but with my luck I suspect one or the other needs fixed. I prefer the first one (a no-dash with "M") so I hope it's the second one (a dash 4) that's broken. I soon as I can fortify my nerve and watch the Miculek DVD a couple more times, I'm going elbow deep in both without even knowing what I'm looking for - should be fun.

[Old Fuff]

I don't see how you can go wrong with Smith & Wesson. They pay for the shipping, and send you a quote for any work they propose before they do anything. If you say, "no" they send the gun back. Otherwise you send them money, after which they do whatever. I also think you have at least a 50% chance or better, that the work will be done under warrantee.

Be aware that some of Jim's excellent checklist is more appropriate for Colt's then Smith & Wesson's. In a Colt the hand is designed to lock the cylinder with absolutely no rotational movement when the trigger is pulled all of the way back. This is great, but only if the bore and chamber are in exact alignment - and Jim explains how to look for this if you don't have a range rod, and few do. The Smith & Wesson hand does not lock the cylinder, and a little rotational movement when the trigger is held back is O.K.

If the model 686 has been updated and stamped "M" it has already been back to the factory and gone through a full check-up. I would consider this to be a plus.