[Lochaber]

Hi all,

I am getting ready to start loading .308 for my Savage 10FP, and I have a number of questions.

1) I'm planning to get the Lee deluxe die set. No one seems to say anything bad about them and they sure are cheap. Any reason not to?

2) My initial load will proabably be Sierra Matchkings in 168gr over Varget, because that seems to be what a lot of people are getting good results with. What other combinations work well? Price is a consideration, so I would like to stat within the same price bracket.

3) I do have a collection of various brands of brass from the factory ammo I've shot, but I would like to standarize and buy a batch of brass. Whithout paying for high end match brass, what brand should I be looking for? I will proabably end up necksizing only, after the initial chamber forming. How to nickel plated cases work, and are there pro's and con's related to their use?

Are there any details particular to .308 that I should be aware of (this would be my first rifle reloading experience)?

Thanx
Loch

[dakotasin]

1- i've no experience w/ lee dies. i use rcbs and am very happy w/ them.

2- for target loads, 168 mk's and varget works well. rl-15 is a good powder to consider as well. my favorite load is 168 hornady a-max's over varget in win cases and lit by cci br-2's. my experience w/ varget is that it doesn't produce the velocity rl-15 does, but my rifles shoot it so well i don't care. rl-15, however, is capable of very good accuracy.

3- for run-of-the-mill brass you'll have a tough time beating winchester. i really don't like nickel cases, and the first time you trim and size nickel cases you'll see why. i've heard that they are hard on dies, but i don't know for sure. nickel cases definitely require more effort to trim, though. also, after a few firings and resizings, there is a good chance the nickel will start to flake off...

the 308 is very easy to load for. it shoots most appropriate powders and bullets well (some just 'weller' than others). the mild recoil makes extended shooting sessions tolerable, which will reduce the number of range sessions you need to find a really good load. i seat bullets so that they are lightly engaging the lands. if you do this, too, be sure to check function through your magazine. because the 220 round nose is still being produced, many chambers are cut to accept this bullet, which turns most rifles shooting lighter (168's for example) spitzer bullets into single shots. to me, this is not an issue for target loads as i prefer to load target/varmint rifles one at a time.

good luck!

[bogie]

1. The Lee collet dies are great.

2. Buy surplus 4895. Start at 39 grains, and work up. Will work with either the Matchkings or Nosler 165 ballistic tips (which I've found to be as accurate at the matchkings, cost about the same, and are good for hunting).

3. Buy Lapua .308 - Match-quality brass at only a little more than "spray & pray" costs. It's a bolt action, ferchrissake - you're not going to be throwing it all over the place. Buy 100 rounds - you can wear out the barrel with that.

Now call Sinclair's and order the Lapua brass. All you need is 100 pieces. Trust me.

[Mesa]

I have a Savage 10FP in 308 that has had 4000+ rounds through it. My old handload was 40.5/4895 with a 168 Sierra MatchKing in Federal brass. For the longest that handload was good for a 5 round cloverleaf (about a 1/2" group) at 100 yards. The groups had opened up to nearly an inch by the time I got to 4000 rounds. I just figured the barrel was nearing the end of its life and didn't really worry about it. THEN I tried a Hornady A-Max 168. WOW! What a difference! I had some IMR 4064 and some Black Hills Match brass so I loaded up a few rounds and seated them to different depths and headed to the range. After a bit of testing my 308 is a 1/2 MOA rifle again! I have tested it to 600 yards with those A-Max bullets and it is like a new rifle. What would it have done when it was new I wonder?

The last time I went to the 600 yard range there was a guy shooting 2 Savage 308's and after a while we naturally started talking. I told him about my rifle and the new handload and he pointed to one of his rifles and said he had experienced the exact same thing. He was at around 4000 rounds through it and when he tried the A-Max bullets it was like a new rifle.

I use 42.5 of IMR 4064, a Hornady A-Max 168 gr bullet, Black Hills Match Brass (that same guy told me Lapua makes the match brass for Black Hills, but I don't know if it's true), and Federal GM210M primers. I have also had really good luck with Winchester brass. But since I have 500 rounds of BHM, I'll stick with it.

I'm off to the range in the morning!

[Dave P]

and don't forget about Nosler 168 bthp bullets, as a cheaper substitute for the MK's. Excellant bullet; about $33 for a box of 250 (Midway, Natchez).

[J Calhoun]

I've had a 10FP for a few years. I've found it shoots 175gr MatchKings better than any other bullet.

I've done my best short range groups (under 400yds) with 44.5gr Varget. For what I do now, 600 & 1000 yard matches, I use 45.8gr BLC2. It gives a muzzle velocity of 2735fps. For anything under 500 yards, I don't worry about brands of cases. For matches, I use match grade brass.

Here's my match load:
brass- LC82 Match (military)
bullet- 175gr Sierra MatchKing
powder-Hodgdon BLC2 (I did use Varget)
primer- CCI BR2
OAL-2.82"

[Bottom Gun]

I would avoid Hornady Match brass. After two moderate pressure loadings, the primer pockets have enlarged to the point that primers will fall out of the brass I have.
Their Frontier brass isn't much better.
I've had best luck with Remington and Winchester.

[enichols]

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I am just starting to load .308 for my Savage 10FP and I selected this particular loading:
Federal brass
43.0 grains IMR 4064
Sierra Matchking 168gr hpbt
CCI primer
OAL 2.80

Does anyone else shoot a load similar to this? How does it perform in your rifle(s)? Thanks for any info you can give me.
-Nic

[Steve Smith]

I agree with Bogie on the surplus 4895 and Lapua brass.



Nic, nothing unique about your load at all, those are reliable components...well, with excepton to the Fed cases. In a bolt gun it might not matter though. Fed with semi-auto is asking for case head seps.

[ocabj]

I found 43.0gr Varget + 168SMK gave me 1/4" 5-shot groups in my Savage 10FP until a couple weeks ago. Out of nowhere it wouldn't group under 1/2" and usually gave me a 1" group. I ended up shooting some 45.0gr Varget loads I had in my ammo box and they shot 1/2" groups.

I'm not sure what happened. I doubt it's bore damage and it can't be barrel life because it's only got 300 rounds through it. I checked the bases and re-loctited the base screws.

I'm going to try 45.0gr Varget + 175SMK next.

I'm confused why those loads I was shooting such good groups with now shoot like garbage.

[Hutch]

Ocabj, no offense meant, but have really, really cleaned the barrel? Sounds like it could be a build up of gilding metal. Also, have you been alternating the standard MK's with moly-coated bullets? I had an accuracy problem with my 700VS that I attributed to that. A diligent cleaning including <gulp> JB Bore Paste cured the problem.

[hillbilly]

I shoot 168 SMKs in my Rem 700.

However, just to let you know, lots of folks really like the 175 SMKs instead.

With the 175, you get a little more oomph at looooong ranges.

hillbilly

[ocabj]

Ocabj, no offense meant, but have really, really cleaned the barrel? Sounds like it could be a build up of gilding metal. Also, have you been alternating the standard MK's with moly-coated bullets? I had an accuracy problem with my 700VS that I attributed to that. A diligent cleaning including <gulp> JB Bore Paste cured the problem.

I clean very diligently, even between groups. I take the rifle to the range with a completely clean bore. After every 5-shot group, I clean with a brass brush and Shooter's Choice solvent. Then I run patches saturated with Shooter's Choice until no blue shows. I clean in this manner the same way before I leave the range. When I get home, I run patches with Butch's Bore Shine until no blue comes out (this takes awhile).

I have to run Butch's Bore Shine as a followup to Shooter's Choice solvent because the solvent, while it does get the fouling out completely, it doesn't get all the copper out.

Last Sunday afternoon when I was cleaning in my garage, it was taking a realllll long time to get blue out of the bore with Bore Shine. Maybe I'll get some JB Bore Paste and try it out. I can make a detour to the local gun shop after work.

I don't use moly coated bullets. The only ammo that has went through it are Federal Gold Match 168 and 175, Hornady 168 BTHP Match (Factory), Hornady 168 AMax (Factory), and handloads using 168SMK and 168 AMax.

But, yeah, I'll try JB Bore Paste. How is it? Does it harm the bore if I leave it in too long?

[enichols]

Steve,
Thanks for the reply. I'll post the results after tomorrow's range trip.
-Nic

[Steve Smith]

ocabj, sounds like you're going to wear out your barrel with a bore brush, not bullets. All that cleaning really isn't necessary.


Did anything change, such as lot of primers, powder, bullets? Is 1" really that bad? How many groups, TOTAL, had you fired with that load, and did every single one of them go into 1/4"? You realize that one or even five lucky groups into that small of an area is NOT a representation of what the rifle usually shoots? Perhaps you have just found the other extreme of that load's AVERAGE group.

Shoot more, clean less, don't panic.


No, JB won't hurt your bore if you leave it in until the next ice age. I don't think you need it yet, but I could be wrong. Maybe try it once, concentrate on the throat area, and wash it out well after you're all done. You shouldn't need to use JB very often at all.

After you're done with that bottle of Shooters Choice go to the GM dealer and buy some Top Engine Cleaner instead.

[ocabj]

So clean less with the bronze brush? Just stick with patches for cleaning?

I've been using the same components for handloads:

168SMK
Varget
Lapua Brass
CCI BR2 Primers

As far as the groups for the 168SMK/43.0gr Varget, I shot 4 different 5-shot groups that would shoot shots 2-5 within 1/4" or less. The first shot (a clean bore shot) would always print 1/4"-1/2" 6 o'clock of the fouled bore shots.

[Steve Smith]

So clean less with the bronze brush? Just stick with patches for cleaning?

Just stop cleaning so much period! Once every 5 shots? Start enjoying your rifle and step away from the cleaning rod!

I've been using the same components for handloads:

168SMK
Varget
Lapua Brass
CCI BR2 Primers

I didn't ask if you were using the same components, I asked if they were the same lot from the little group era until now. (Lot = that little number stamped on the box)

As far as the groups for the 168SMK/43.0gr Varget, I shot 4 different 5-shot groups that would shoot shots 2-5 within 1/4" or less. The first shot (a clean bore shot) would always print 1/4"-1/2" 6 o'clock of the fouled bore shots.

Well, that's good, and if you want to be one of the guys who always brags one or two groups (or in this case 4), then stop now, and post that target up on your fridge. The reality is that the rifle may really have a 1MOA average group and you caught it on a good day. 20 shots in a 1/4" do not a great rifle make. One day it may only shoot a 1.5" group...what will you do then? What you want to do is find the real average that the load will produce. Sounds to me like you have the beginnings of a good load. Consider tinkering with bullet depth and primer brand (try Rem BR primers too). Try changing bullets. Eventually, you may find that the true average group of your rifle is 3/4" or so and you will have a beer on the days it shoots 1/4" and you'll just say "oh well" on the days it won't go under an inch.


The biggest question is when will you stop wearing out your barrel with load testing, take the rifle off the bench, and learn how to use it? The load is good enough.