[Newton]

Ok, I know your fingers are poised over the keyboard to ridicule such a silly notion, and I know it has been asked before. But I was reminded of the importance of these little .22LR pistols the other day when a friend told me that when he was a kid, his dad could only afford a worn old .22LR pistol with which to keep the family safe, and I certainly wouldn't want to take a couple of rounds from one. It is after all known as the "kill you later" round.

Most people recommend CCI Stingers if you absolutely have nothing else, but I'm not so sure that a 32 grain hollow point is the right way to go. If you have to use .22LR, I would think that the fastest 40gr solid would be your best bet.

So now there is such a round, the Aguila Interceptor solid. That's probably what I would opt for, but I don't have the ballistics for anything other than a rifle length barrel.

Has anyone looked further into this question? What would you carry in a Beretta 21A, or a 4.5inch Beretta Neos - would they be the same load?

[spiroxlii]

I am curious about how the Aguila SSS (Sniper Subsonic) 60gr .22lr round would do. I know it's heavy compared to the lighter hypervelocity rounds, but heavy and slow sometimes ends up penetrating better than fast and light. 115gr 9mm vs 147gr subsonic 9mm is one example.

[DENALI]

I have a cheapy jenning's thats been around for ever, I'd never even consider it for defense. Thats not to say I wouldn't use it if it was the only thing available.
The 22LR out of a rifle is however a different matter, while not legal, back in my youth my brother and I harvested whitetail deer very effectively with it.

[Library Guy]

I learned on the internet that the mere sound of a shotgun being pumped will cause evil doers to discharge their bladders and run like a cat on fire.

If that’s so, then the sound of a .22 hitting them in the throat ought to make them really skedaddle.

Now, consider this little hypothetical situation. You have to shoot a string seven yards away with one shot. You can use a .22 or a .45. Let’s say both guns/cartridges will give the same center to center accuracy. Which would you choose?

I would choose the .45. (Remember, same accuracy.) The .45 with its great diameter would offer a greater chance of clipping that string.

Sometimes stopping a biological target depends on literally clipping a string.

Okay, that was a silly line of reasoning…

So, how about CB longs for self defense?

[Newton]

I have heard others recommend the 60 grain Aguila, but in testing I seem to remember it didn't do as well as expected (it's very slow out of a pistol barrel), but I don't have the link.

[MCgunner]

Don't worry about ammo, worry about shot placement. Shoot for the eyes. Forget center mass.

[MaterDei]

Self defense is not about killing a threat, necessarily, it is about stopping a threat. It is a proven fact that a 22LR is not as good of a stopper as other larger caliber rounds are.

With that said, it beats the hell out of a knife, a bat, or a fist.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I always get a chuckle out of the Armed Citizen page in the NRA mag when some granny woman opens up on the boys in the hood come to steal her pension money with a .22LR pistol usually a revolver.
sometimes there's a DRT usually hospital with serious wounds.
my mom was a crack shot with the H&R 9 shot I got her. if she had time to aim she could knock an eye out easy. no problem hittiing a bread basket in a point&shoot situ. she practiced too, using old fruit and melons I got from the market dump bin.

[Geno]

When I was in high school, I cooked in a family restaurant. The owner always walked home...across the neighbor's yard then into his home. Not far really. He always carried a 10-shot S&W .22LR revolver. His rationale was he wanted to be sure the perp lived to go to jail. He never chuckled or grinned when he said it, so I always assumed he was pretty serious. That said, I doubt many criminals would stop and ask, "Are you shooting at me with a 10mm or a .22LR?" If all you have is a .22LR, that's what you have.

[Vonderek]

His rationale was he wanted to be sure the perp lived to go to jail.
This is noteworthy when you think about the ramifications. It probably means that if the perp lives you will probably get the pants sued off you. And if he remains disabled you will forever be paying for his medical care and rehabilitation. Fair? No. But that's the way it is in this liberal, litigious society. For this reason alone I think the 22LR is a poor choice. Perhaps it's the only choice for the elderly or infirmed who cannot handle the recoil of a larger caliber but a poor choice for anyone else IMHO.

[woad_yurt]

Newton:
I tried Velocitors, Stingers, and Aguila Super Maximums side by side, for comparison. I used all 3 with each of the same 3 revolvers, all fired from the same 6" distance into a 2X4. I had 3 barrel sizes, 2.5", 3", and 6" and in every instance, the Aguilas penetrated further, followed closely by the Velocitors. The Stingers were a semi-distant third.

The Aguila solid points penetrated further than did the HPs. So, for my little 9 shot 2.5" barrelled H&R 922 revolver, I now use Aguila Super Maxes. Those little puppies can tear up a 2X4!

[moooose102]

Well, I Kind Of Thought The Idea Behind Using The Light Weight Hollow Point Was To Have A Bullet That Would Not Over Penetrate, And Get Larger In Diameter. A 33 Caliber (i Am Guessing About The Expanded Size)hole Is More Effective Than A 22 Caliber Hole. Better Chance Of Inflicting Harm To Vital Organs/ Arteries/ Brain Matter/ Etc. Etc.

[Javelin]

I am just going to throw it out there not go out and purposely buy a .22LR for personal protection, but I am not saying to buy a 25 auto either.

You can defend yourself with your hands... with that said a .380 or 9mm is going to do a better job.

:)

[1911Tuner]

Not a silly notion at all. The ever-present and prolific .22 rimfire isn't as bad a choice as one might suspect, given all the talk about knock-down power and manstoppers and other such drivel.

It's an estrblished fact that nobody wants to get shot with anything, laying aside suicides. The .22 can do what needs to be done if shot well against 95% of the people who would attack us unprovoked, and who are not under the influence of alcohol and/or similar numbing drugs. The knowledge that you've just been shot...or at least shot at...is a pretty viable deterrent for the largest percentage of the population. For the five percenters, it won't matter, because there are some who are able to absorb multiple hits with a .44 magnum and keep coming. These are the exception, though.

Understand that I'm neither advising, nor promoting the use of the .22 rimfire handgun for a personal protection/carry gun. There are better calibers, and one should carry all the power that he or she can reliably manage...but don't be too quick to discount the .22 Long Rifle cartridge. Outside of war zones, there have probably been more people killed with the .22 than any other three calibers combined, with the possible exception of the .38 Special...another cartridge that regularly gets pooh-poohed in this age of Hi-Cap, +P+ hot-rod autopistol rounds.

[DPris]

Many years ago, stuck in a small town in Wyoming overnight for car repairs enroute to my first USAF duty station out of Tech School, I met a guy in a restaurant who said he was still undecided on having the .22 slug removed from his chest that he'd been carrying around for a few months.
That & other occurances since have kinda led me to contude that on one hand the .22 is better than nothing, but on the other hand it may be worse than nothing, in that it gives you the illusion of being armed for defense when you're really not. :D
And from there, the obvious questions: Is a 6-oz rock too small? A 16-oz rock too big? :scrutiny:
Denis

[Gun Slinger]

There are much better cartridges (.38/.357, 9mm, .357 Sig., .40 S&W, .45 A.C.P., etc.) suitable for the role of self defense and given the wealth of choices we have, it is foolish to constrain oneself to such a feeble performer.

Sure, the .22LR has killed many, but it will most likely not do so in the desired timeframe. Why inhibit yourself with a "lesser" cartridge unless you absolutely must?

GS

[Mad Magyar]

Shoot for the eyes. Forget center mass.

Reminds me of Jeff Cooper when asked if he had only a .22 pistol in defense of his life, "Empty the entire mag at his face"...:)

[WVMountainBoy]

Well I'm with everyone else if I had the choice to have a larger caliber with me I would, but if constrained to a 22LR I have a good bit of faith in what it can do. One it is loud coming out of a pistol and no one wants shot or shot at, so there is a good bit of "ACK" factor. Using a .22LR just means they get all 10 rounds instead of the double tap. I own two .22LR's a pistol and a rifle. The rifle is my go to gun over my bed, as I'm a good shot with it. but theres a .38 right beside it.

[Timthinker]

To answer the original question, try different rounds and see what cycles best in your handgun. Semi-autos are more fickle, owning to the nature of their design, than revolvers. In the case of a .22 long rifle handgun, I look for penetration first and expansion second. Try the rounds that interest you and compare them for reliability and penetration, if checking for penetration is possible where you shoot. That is the best advice anyone can offer regarding this question.

Of course, I am impelled to say that a larger caliber is better, but I did answer the original inquiry. I try to be a team player.:D


Timthinker

[1911Tuner]

There are much better cartridges (.38/.357, 9mm, .357 Sig., .40 S&W, .45 A.C.P., etc.)

No argument there.

Why inhibit yourself with a "lesser" cartridge unless you absolutely must?

You may have partly answered your own question.

There are people who have a .22 and wish it was a .357 magnum, but for whatever reason...be it financial or physical...can only rely on that one pistol that they can have and use.

Others that may not be able to carry something more effective...or as Richard Farnsworth said in The Grey Fox..."something with a little more heft."
Let's face it. Pistols of serious caliber are either bulky, heavy, or both...while there are some nice little .22 revolvers and self-shuckers around that could be carried easily for the people who aren't quite as dedicated as many of us are.

The best gun for personal defense is the one that you have with you, and the one to carry is the one that you WILL carry instead of leaving it at home. The .22 in your pocket beats the .45 that you left in the nightstand when a wolf is ripping at your entrails.

[Ralph]

I met a guy in a restaurant who said he was still undecided on having the .22 slug removed from his chest that he'd been carrying around for a few months.

Yes sir. Been carrying around a mousegun slug in my leg for 28 years now. Went in below knee hit tibia and follwed tibia about 12" down. Dr. said he would do more damage trying to take it out than it would probably do if we left it there.

[Born4spd]

.22 will do just fine.

What ever you can shoot the best is what will work for you.

If you can shoot a .22 better then a 9mm.. carry the .22LR. : )

[wheelgunslinger]

I would carry a 22, but would ideally want a pistol with a double stack mag that held about 25 or so rounds so I could follow Cooper's advice.
Hey, if they can fit 20 in the FN 5.7... :D

[Confederate]

My father grew up in the country and he said that the .22LR was always treated with a great deal of respect. And though some people disparage it for defensive purposes, I've seen so many newspaper clippings and news reports of people who have used it successfully that I wouldn't hesitate to keep one in my drawer. Take a look at this video I found. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QttVzZ107N4&feature=related) It pretty much says it all.

[mossy141701]

WVmountainboy you are not alone, I own more 22's and 38's than any other caliber. I have several up to the 44 magnum but be honest, for just all around plinking fun and the cost involved you can't beat either. I also would not pick a 22 for a defense gun but would use it if that was all that was available. I also have never felt under gunned with any of my 38's.

[Gun Slinger]

Quote:
Why inhibit yourself with a "lesser" cartridge unless you absolutely must?

You may have partly answered your own question.



1911Tuner,

It was more of a rhetorical question. :)

GS

[woad_yurt]

moooose102:
.22LR needs all of the penetration it can get if one is going to use it against a human. I'd rather have a deeply buried solid point than a shallowly placed hollow point. Rounds with more power can afford to slow up a bit in the body.

[PointOneSeven]

Concealability, that's why I'd carry (and do carry) a .22. But some of those .32's are pretty small packages! I use gameshoks, minimags or velocitors.


In a longer barrel, I'd consider using stingers, let the increased velocity do something with the lighter hollowpoint.

[CJ]

Got to agree with wheelgunslinger:
would carry a 22, but would ideally want a pistol with a double stack mag that held about 25 or so rounds so...

I always thought a very high cap .22 with a very short, crisp trigger would make an interested choice. In my high school days when I might have given Extreme Shock ammo a second though, the vision was for a compact full auto .22 with a large magazine...seems like it would be similar to getting hit with a shotgun.

[-terry]

I think lots of the shootings with .22 have been with "unloaded" 22's.

[ReadyontheRight]

.22? Better than a knife or baseball bat for self-defense.

Easy to shoot, easy to carry, easy to carry a lot of ammo. A great caliber for bugging-out or survival, but there are certainly better choices specifically for self-defense.

Still not a bad option if it's all you've got.

[sm]

1911Tuner,

Old Slabside's of yours is loaded I know, watch my six will ya? *puh-leeze*

Folks,
I do not know how many of you realize how many Physically Limited persons are members of THR and other gun forums.
Realize how many that are not, still lurk on THR and other forums.

I do for one, or should say I keep learning of more and more- as I have been contacted by such persons.
THR Staff, has assisted in these persons getting in contact with me.

NO Recoil orders by Doctors, Surgeons and Physical Therapist's occurs every day, just as it has always.

I was born in the mid 50's, and grew up with Veterans of War, Polio Victims, and Elderly with Osteo Arthritis.
All my life, Veterans from War, such as Vietnam and other Conflicts including the Conflicts going on now.

Hi round shooters in Trap and Skeet, detached retinas. Retinas get detached from car wrecks and other accidents.

Accidents occur, and neck, shoulder, back detached retinas happen.

Chemotherapy for Cancer patients weakens them, their immune system is down, and they can get hurt easy.
Risk for Falls is not just for old folks, anyone of any age can be susceptible to injury, and if they are injured, sick and recovering, their system can get hurt worse falling again.

One of our own members, with real combat experience, and more hours of training than one can imagine, was restricted to a .22 for defensive use.
Force on Force training and he busted his back,
Two back surgeries.

He knows as well as anyone, a .22 is not the best choice.
Still he himself was under NO RECOIL orders.

He assists with physically limited folks. Some have Osteo so bad, stepping down too hard will break a foot.
My Aunt did just that before she died, with Osteo so bad.
One of the ladies I know is that bad off, and her home guns are Marlin 60s.

This member with the surgeries does the same as I. These folks get the Doc's and PTs approval, to shoot .22.
These folks will shoot a golf ball every time, and a tennis ball on a bad day.

First Do no harm. Medical Folks take this oath.

I take this oath, I am not going to harm someone.
I earn their trust, and they know I am going to keep them safe.
Other folks that work with physically limited do the same.

I had one young lady, detached retina, shoulder and knee surgery.
NO Recoil orders.
She recovered, and can shoot shotguns and other guns well now.
It took time to get to that point as she was only able to use a .22.

Marine is back from the Conflict, busted up and is under NO Recoil orders.
Young, handsome , stropping ,young man. I mean 6'2 or 6'3" solid as granite.

NO Recoil, and he finally got to where he could use a .22.
Time passes and he can use a .410 shotgun.
He does not push it, he is recovering , still he does not want to be paralyzed or have to have surgery again - or any of that.

He is not the only Military Person, male or female, that is under NO Recoil restrictions.

I get ticked, I really really do.
I grew up with all I did and was Mentored by these fine Mentors and Elders.
These folks sacrificed for Freedom.
Folks like them continued to sacrifice for Freedom.

Polio victims, those physically limited do to car wrecks, work accidents and whatever else , Mentored Physically Limited Folks and whole folks like me...
These still do.

I really do not want folks getting hurt, sick, injured, having surgeries, I really don't.

Some folks know not of what they speak, and if they ever get down, and hear NO RECOIL orders, well...this Armchair BS is not going to be of much comfort, or help.

Yes there are better choices than a .22.

The reality is, NO gun in any caliber is a magic talisman.
Folks really should not put all their security into physical things, be close minded and not be receptive, or even be compassionate to those that are physically limited.

In the blink of an eye, anyone of use could be limited, either temporary or permanent.

Part of why I am ticked is, some physically limited members, and lurkers are being talked down to, not made to feel welcome here as they do not see understanding, compassion, open-minds.

They have a right to keep private, I respect this.
Still they are not made to feel a part of our community so they contact me
and others off public postings.

I really wish these folks would share more...
I am real appreciative of all the things these folks have passed to me, all my life.

No tool is any better than the user of a tool.

It would blow some minds around here, as to how some of these Physically Limited can shoot a .22...
Other guns too, and some are not the kewl gotta haves everyone says either.

Still a .22...

Beware the person that shoots one gun - they know how to shoot the damn thing.

Discuss the .22.
Do NOT attack anyone using one.
That crosses a personal line with me.

You don't know if that person is a Military Person, or anyone else Physically Limited.


Steve

[lvcat2004]

Can you make your post any more wordy?? I don't think we are talking about disabled people shooting 22's, and although it may be relevant in rare occasions, it deviates much too far from the heart of the discussion and find your long-winded post somewhat annoying.

I personally woudn't BUY a 22LR for a defensive purpose as many have said. While it may be true that it may cause fatal damages eventually, when you are shooting for self-defense, the cardinal rule is that you shoot to kill, not to maim. If that's the only gun you own, and the only gun you can afford, by all means use it, since it's better than a knife or a fist.

I used to carry a 9mm subcompact, but I found myself not carrying it all the time due to bulkiness and weight, and as many said, it's better to have a small caliber with you than to have a 45ACP in your gun safe. So now I carry a Kel-tec 380, which is very compact, perhaps as compact as 22 semi-autos. I encourage you to look into some 32ACP's or 380's that have significantly more stopping power than a 22LR, yet small enough to carry. If you can carry a big 45 or 9mm without problem, then I would say that would be a better option--I just coudn't do it.

[OU_Gryphon]

lvcat,
I think what SM was talking about is the reflexive response of many caliber snobs who just can't wait to jump in with "the .22 sux for SD". The original question was essentially what is the best 22lr ammo for defense, not "what is the best round for defense." Very few people have answered that question because they are too busy saying the 22 is a bad SD round - something the original poster acknowledged right at the very beginning.

Oh, and by the way, the purpose of shooting in self-defense is to stop the attack, not to kill or even to "knock down" the attacker. While not the best choice for any of these purposes, the 22 can stop an attack. The heart of this discussion is what ammo in a 22 does this best.

As to the orginal question, I've always heard that 22 hollow points aren't moving fast enough out of a pistol to expand reliably anyway. I can't back that up with links, but that is what I've heard anecdotally. In any case, it seems like deeper penetration would trump expansion in a 22, so I would give the advantage to a heavy round nose bullet.

[lvcat2004]

Ok, you are correct that the OP was about the ammunition, and not too much about 22LR's ability to stop people. I would agree that penetration would be important in feeble caliber, so in such instance, I have heard many people using calibers such as 25ACP or 32 usingt FMJ for self defense as opposed to HP's. I just haven't seen a lot of data on 22LR in self defense because probably it's not meant to be.

I completely disagree with you on "stopping" and not killing for self defense. If you are in immediate danger of your life or serious injurty as a result of an assault, I would not hesitate to shoot and kill, and there will be only one side of the story, and the assailant will not be disabled, and will not be able to sue me or retaliate--it's fundamental. "It's not to kill or even to knock down the attacker"??? I don't know what planet you are from. Perhaps you are talking about military/police or somethign completely different, but as far civilian self-defense goes, avoid drawing your weapon at all cost in the first place, but if you do, you better be prepared to shoot and kill, not merely stopping, knocking down, or maiming--that would be the wrong thing to do. If you are in no need to fatally wound your assailant, then you shouldn't be drawing your weapon in the first place.

[OU_Gryphon]

I'm from the planet earth - specifically the USA. In the USA there are a lot of jurisdictions (even Texas, for instance) where intending to kill your attacker can be interpretted as 2nd degree murder. That is not to say that you shouldn't shoot to kill, but the purpose (at least legally speaking) is to stop the attack, not to rid the streets of another scumbag. It is a fine distinction, but an important one. Tactically, though, I agree that if you are going to pull your gun, you should be shooting to kill because that is the best and only safe, reliable way to stop the attack.

Edit: I just re-read your original post, and I realized I misread what you had typed regarding shooting to kill. My mistake. Carry on.

[1911Tuner]

lvcat:

Can you make your post any more wordy?? It deviates much too far from the heart of the discussion and find your long-winded post somewhat annoying.

That's Steve's style. I suggest reading his posts. Lot of wisdom and humor contained in most of'em. We like him, anyway. If you find his posts annoying...skip over them. Personal attacks are not acceptable here. I suggest that you re-read the rules that you agreed to before you get that toe any farther across the line.

I don't think we are talking about disabled people shooting 22's, and although it may be relevant in rare occasions...

Actually, that's part of why many people opt for a smaller caliber pistol to start with. Arthritis...Carpal Tunnel...things like that afflict many people, and firing even a mildly recoiling handgun causes a lot of discomfort and keeps them from practicing to any reasonable degree. A .22 gives them the ability to have something besides a sharp stick and a prayer. Remember that these 2-legged predators often select the old and the infirm as targets.

Just recently, we had an elderly couple murdered on a hiking trail in the Western Carolina mountains. By the time they were found, the scavengers had reduced them to skeletons. A little .22 revolver dropped into a coat pocket might have provided a different ending to that sad story.

[wheelgunslinger]

SM is right. Not everyone is dragging a large caliber weapon that will sunburn you from the muzzle blast and deafen you with the report as it's simultaneously vaporizing the bad guy and ripping a hole in the space/time continuum where his particles disappear forever.
Ideally, I'd like a handgun that shoots African Lions at the bad guy. Talk about ending the conflict...

Some people just can't use anything larger than a 22. And, that's cool.

My own mother is one of those people. She has MS, Fibromyalgia, and a laundry list of other neurological ailments. And, she just went through what seems like her 10th cancer surgery. She's very very weak and unfortunately not able to defend herself with even my Dad's little czechomatic CZ52. So, I bought her a 22 a few years back. And, after sounding like a crazy person talking about home invasions, I've finally and sadly been proven right within the last six months when a home down the street was the target of home invaders. So, now she keeps the 22 around instead of in the safe.

As to what ammo, the Aguila solids sound pretty interesting since the mercurial CCI stingers seem to come apart at the hollowpoint if they hit something hard. (This is purely anecdotal since I have no photos to show you.)
Seems like a solid would penetrate better.
Try them out and see what happens with some phone books and watermelons and such.

[foghornl]

I would always prefer something larger, but if my MKII or 10/22 was what I had in hand when "Vigoro Strikes Mixmaster"....well 'run whatcha brung' And as Steve {sm} pointed out, there are some folks that for various reasons CANNOT use anything larger.

But I do keep the .22Mag cylinder in my Single-Six....loaded up with Gold Dot bullet. IIRC, it is CCI brand. I only saw that stuff on the shelf once at my local Gander Mountain, and I bought all 6 boxes they had. Haven't seen anymore in the last 2 years.

Wha????? Using a Single-Action Revolver in .22Rimfire??? Yep...Run Whatcha Brung

Now CCI calls that ammo the "Maxi-Mag TNT", #0063 based on the Gold Dot bullet techology. CCI claims 1600FPS muzzle velocity from a 6" handgun. Would be somewhat less than that from my 4-5/8" Single-Six, but would still put a hurtin' on what was hit.

[BOOM-BOOM]

I was just wondering why no one has mentioned the 22mag.

When I was younger I use too hunt ground-hog. And I always use 22magnums. they did a great job on those little fat critters....

[OU_Gryphon]

IIRC, the original question was about 22lr, although obviously a 22 mag would be a major step up in power and recoil vs. the 22 lr. I always thought the little NAA mini-revolvers in 22 mag would be a good weapon of last resort. I don't care who you are, a 22 mag in the face is going to ruin your day real quick. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can get real jacketed bullets in 22 mag instead of the plated bullets so common in 22lr. Seems like that would help keep the bullet together whether you are using FMJ or JHP.

[Hokkmike]

Poor choice.

[sm]

1. Standard Pressure , 40 gr, LRN.
I prefer lead, no copper plating.
Winchester T-22 is a old example, there are others by other mfgs.

I prefer Fiocchi, with CCI being my second choice for my guns.
My guns like this load.

2. Winchester Dynapoints.
If you can find these, these are standard pressure, with a dimple, not really a HP

3. Target grade ammo by Eley, RWS and others.
Your gun will inform you what it liked best.





Shot placement and quick effective hits are what one has to have, with any firearm, in any caliber.
Period.

A gun has to feed, extract feed - repeat.
Magazines are part of the semi auto design.

Guns are mfg to shoot ammunition of certain specifications, and are regulated to shoot point of aim/point of impact (POA/POI)

It does not matter what mfg makes the gun, platform, caliber, if the gun does not feed, extract, feed, repeat, shoot POA/POI , then one is not going to get shot placement in the first place, much less quick effective hits.

I don't care if you have umpteen bazillion rounds of the most hi-tech, most popular round, if these do not work in YOUR gun, you are screwed.

Bulls-eye shooters are a very smart bunch.
Everyone is so damn down on these folks, as they are not "hip, slick, cool and tactical enough".

Youth is wasted on the young...

Standard pressure is the best kept secret in a .22 firearm. Always has been, still is.

Reliability is a big factor, many hyper velocity shells, such as Stingers are NOT recommended for some guns.
One the OAL is different, and second the wear and tear on action and the dwell time is affected.

Bigger and faster is NOT always better.
Fast bullets often times start out fast and slow down fast and trajectory is off, and varies in a wider "window".
Part of that is do to dwell time.
That wear on a semi, will change how the round is chambered.

Match shooters will use a "gauge" to measure every .22 round to get all the ones the same to use for a string.
.22 ammo , like any ammo, will behave different. So having the same specs every time, increases reliable feeding into the chamber the same and the dwell time being the same.

Art & Science...Brister was correct, and he knew this applied to not only Shotguns.

i.e Beretta 21 A in .22 lr.
I have never had a problem with this gun. Never!
Neither has others I know. Some are Undercover Cops, Body Guards and the like.

I/we know why folks have a problem with these and 98% of the time, it is NOT the gun.
Beretta knows how to make small tip up guns, it is rare for me and mine to have seen a faulty Jetfire, Bobcat, Minx and others.

These small guns, have to be respected - even in revolvers.
There is not a lot of room for levers, and all to move, one reason one cannot get a action job on these as they can a bigger gun.


Hi-Velocity.
Prefer LRN.

CCI Mini Mags, Winchester X22lr, and Win Power point.

In the old days, we did not have CCI here. PowerPoint had not even been invented yet.

X22LR, ran in every damn gun we shot it through, even Jennings and Ravens.
It might not be the most accurate, often times it was!

Federal made a similar load, forget the name, and since ATK has them now, not looked to see if still in the line.
That load did the same thing.

Fiocchi had one ( maybe still does) and that was one nice load.

Remington, w-a-y back when had a good load, I used it.
Remington does not make their .22 ammo and for us, about mid 70's Rem loads were avoided like the Plague.

Recently...Remington or whomever is doing their .22 ammo, is doing a really nice job.
The Standard and Hi-Velocity are really running guns and shooting accurate!

Now I really hate light loads and the heavy loads. 60 gr SSS don't do ...
Most 34, 36 gr won't...Except, the Old Federal Bulk packs.
These are old, 40,000 rds were bought at one time and these are the ones I and mine are using ...getting low.

That 36 gr HP, hi-vel, has baffled us in being reliable, and accurate.
One old boy has a old High Standard he shoots for Bulls-Eye and his gun likes this load better than Eley and other expensive Target loads.

I have run to the aid of another, given them a Marlin 60, a box of T-22s and knew the gun would work, even if I had not shot the thing.

LRN and in Standard pressure will work.
I have seen the Autopsies, and been in on the Organ Harvests.

My (one of) old Beretta 21A's is stoked with Fiochhi standard pressure LRN, an and is used by a UC LEO lady /Bodyguard type.

H&R 999 I had, is stoked with some 20+year old Win X22LR.
Fella has this gun...

Marlin 60s , one is using a new Remington Target load of 40 gr LRN, it has yet to fail and this gun likes it. It likes Dynapoints real well, and what it was loaded with forever, just we wanted to try these and were surprised.

NAA Mini, we only do the 1 1/8" barrel. We only use standard pressure 40 gr LRN.

Some of these are worn around the neck as they have factory lanyards.
If a lady is down, and hands are in places where they should not be, think of where a ladies hands are, and at bad breath distance going for an eye, into mouth or sinus cavity.
We do lessons on this, and the ladies know where sinuses are.
Sinuses are just holes in the skull. Get out your Anatomy book and look these up.

Physically limited folks, knocked down or our of wheelchairs use these guns, and snub nose .22 , 32, and 38spls.

Some of my Mentors were interesting folks. They shared about Cold War, Checkpoints and Restrictions.

Nobody ever made fun of them carrying concealed a Colt Woodsman, or Beretta tip up - in .22
For fun, they shot lit cigarettes, to extinguish the glowing end.
Daylight, low light, no light...they did this.

[41magsnub]

As has been said before, if somebody broke into my house I'd rather have one of my shotguns or any of my centerfire pistols but if all I had was my 10/22 25 rds of CCI stinger would definitely ruin somebodies day. I've tested this, at 50' (the farthest LOS in my house) I can put every round in a rotten cantelope with the 10/22 while tired and shaky immediately at the end of a run.

[Gun Slinger]

Been thinking about it over night.

If absolutely "stuck" with no other alternative (my 9mm is not accessible to me for some unforeseen reason), my preference would be to load up the Stainless Ruger MK II with CCI Mini Mag 40 grain solids and plan on expending the entire magazine, hoping the desired results occur.

GS

[lvcat2004]

That's Steve's style. I suggest reading his posts. Lot of wisdom and humor contained in most of'em. We like him, anyway. If you find his posts annoying...skip over them. Personal attacks are not acceptable here. I suggest that you re-read the rules that you agreed to before you get that toe any farther across the line.

Thanks for the suggestion, but as you mentioned, if that's his style to deviate from the topic in a long-winded way, I'd prefer to skip them. We have done enough deviation from the topic I feel bad for the OP, and spending 3/4 of a page in something that was not directly related to OP question (type of ammunition) was felt to be inappropriate, whether you agree or not, and I would consider gross deviation from the OP against forum rules (which you should know)so let's stick to type of ammunition, shall we?

I have had a few 22LR guns and tried many 22LR loads, but I find them to be finicky at best, occasionally unreliable--one of the reasons I wouldn't choose 22LR for self defense where reliability is not optional. Therefore, rather than looking into penetration and such, I would use the most reliable 22LR loads for the gun that you are using. For most of my guns, CCI mini-mags seem to do well, but that's just my firearms.

When you have a few options of very reliable loads, then you have options to decide on HP/FMJ....and really...I just haven't encountered what I consider reliable data.....

This "anonymous" author of this well-read article
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VG1.htmlrecommends CCI Stinger 37gr. or Remington Yellow Jackets 33gr. becuase they are both reliable in his guns, and he seems to stress marksmanship and reliablity as the most important...which I agree with 100%, rather than dwelling on details of bullet ballistics in flesh.

I conclude....
having any gun, even 22LR, is better than nothing, especially 45ACP that's in your car or gun safe where you can't have access to.

Any load, whatever bullet weight, or type, that fires reliably is better than something that jams.

Well placed shots are better than ill-placed shots by bigger caliber or "better bullet".

Shoot a bunch, practice for perfect placement, find whatever ammo that is as reliable as you can get in YOUR gun and stick with them. ;)

[Tim L]

Definitely avoid the Aguila SS or SSS, I've seen too many of them bounce off the cardboard target 7yds away. My .22s all shoot the various Winchester bulk loads well and they (as well as Federal and Remington) are available almost anywhere, Eley and CCI may not be.

Tim

[1911Tuner]

if that's his style to deviate from the topic in a long-winded way, I'd prefer to skip them.

Then skip them. All topics wind up deviating a little if they run long enough. Part of the scene. Our job is mainly to keep them from completely jumping the track and heading into points unknown.

so let's stick to type of ammunition, shall we?

Topic:

Let's talk about .22LR for defence

As far as I could tell, the OP asked about the caliber, and thus opened the door for discussion on that line...opinions on the caliber AND ammunition...to see what feedback he got...experiences, references, horror stories, etc.
That's what we've been doing for the most part.

[woad_yurt]

Why should reliability be an issue? If one used .22 semi-autos for range or fun duty and revolvers for any self-protection, one would be fine, reliability-wise. I have 6 .22LR revolvers: 3 H&R DAs, 2 tiny, ancient US revolver Co 7 shot DAs, and a clunky, cheap-o Regent. Out of thousands of rounds shot among them all, I've had a handful of duds. In an emergency, I think there'd be multiple trigger pulls anyway, which would pass by the dud on to the next, good round. Reliability isn't really an issue with a revolver. Still, I do prefer my other, larger calibers for SD duty. But, if push came to shove, I'd feel good with just a .22. I use them, one in particular, a lot & I shoot very well with that particular gun. Probably better than anything else I have.

[1911Tuner]

Why should reliability be an issue?

Reliability IS the issue with any defensive weapon.


I think there'd be multiple trigger pulls anyway, which would pass by the dud on to the next, good round. Reliability isn't really an issue with a revolver.

If it's a dud and not a squib that propels the bullet about an inch deep into the barrel and stops. At that point, your only option is to throw it at him and run unless you carry a backup.

[Shooter973]

Back on Dec.31st 1965 I was shot in the back with a 22 rifle while in Long Beach Calif. I was hit near the right shoulder blade and the bullet tracked around under my arm and stoped on my right side. I was 15 yrs. old and am a pretty good sized guy. The perps gave us fake name and adresses and split.
I was taken to the hospital and they kept asking me if I could breath alright... They thought the bullet has in my lung. Couldn't find it until they took an X-ray from the right side. Then the bullet was removed and I was observed for a couple hours and sent on my way. No real surgery as they just reached in with a long clamp anf pulled it back out the wound. About a dozen stiches and a big bandage and a some pills and "Good bye.":(
Getting shot makes you change your proirities to "get me to a hospital, NOW!!!" I don't care what the caliber is you forget about anything else!!!
Getting shot at a few yrs. later with Ak's and B-40 rockets bring back bad memories, and it still wasn't any fun except ya get to shoot back. :eek:

[lvcat2004]

As far as I could tell, the OP asked about the caliber, and thus opened the door for discussion on that line...opinions on the caliber AND ammunition...to see what feedback he got...experiences, references, horror stories, etc.
That's what we've been doing for the most part.

Not exactly... he wanted to know about the ammunition to use in his Berettas for self defense. This was not a discussion about should I do 22LR or 25 or 32 ACP? or whether many people are disabled and thus can only use 22LR's....but I think that he has enough answers and perhaps more....

I do agree with you on reliability.....it's paramount for self defense....Yet it's probably true that in revolvers it may be a bit less important compare to semi-autos, and the chance that a squib bullet is going to lodge itself mid-barrel is quite small....I can't imagine even using anything but the most reliable weapon/ammo combination for self-defense....whatever caliber/ammo you choose to use.

[Confederate]

Back on Dec.31st 1965 I was shot in the back with a 22 rifle while in Long Beach Calif. I was hit near the right shoulder blade and the bullet tracked around under my arm and stoped on my right side. I was 15 yrs. old and am a pretty good sized guy. The perps gave us fake name and adresses and split.
What, you mean they lied?

This sounds like an accidental shooting, and that you were only shot one time. You also didn't say what kind of a weapon launched that .22LR round, but imagine if you had been shot five or six times repeatedly, very quickly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QttVzZ107N4&feature=related). Even worse, what if you'd been shot while you were in a country where you didn't have the benefit of an x-ray or a trained medical team.

My dad grew up in Western Kentucky and could only afford an old .22LR, which he nailed squirrel and rabbits with after school. He also used cheap, cruddy ammo that he could drive tacks with. But back then, if a .22 round went into someone's chest, no one knew where it might end up, so no one screwed around with guns and even neighbors trusted kids not to shoot out windows or hit cattle.

One of the best guns I've EVER had was the Ruger Mark II autoloader with the 4 3/4-inch barrel. I also have one with a 6 7/8-inch barrel, but I really like the little guy.

[woad_yurt]

1911Tuner:
I meant that I haven't had a revolver jam. My question about reliability and revolvers was posed rhetorically. Revolvers rarely, rarely malfunction, jam-wise; that's primarily a semi-auto issue. .22 semis can and do jam sometimes; some are real pains in the butt that way. The only semi I have that has never jammed is a 9X18 Makarov IJ70.

As far as squib loads are concerned, I've never had one yet in the thousands of .22 rounds I've shot. I know it can happen, but it seems to be a remote possibility. If I was forced to use .22LR for self-defense, I'd use the better quality ammo, like Velocitors or Aguila Super Maxes, not the bulk cheap-o practice stuff.

[sixgunner455]

steve, I have to agree with you on those Federal bulk packs. My .22 rifles and MKII pistol love that load for accuracy and reliability. My pistol chokes on anything Remington makes. T22 from Winchester is fine, as is CCI anything, but for day to day use, it's all about those Federal bulk packs.

Gonna strap on the old MKII today and go for a walk with the dawg.

[Newton]

This is a good thread, but then as the OP, I'm somewhat biased :)

The real purpose behind my original question, was the thought that poorer neighborhoods have higher levels of violent crime, and poorer families either have no firearms, or cheap used plinkers, most likely .22LRs, and these guns tend to see a lot more action than the H&Ks that are stored behind the gates of the gated communities.

To throw in one anecdotal story, I recall reading about a young couple who were attacked in their home by armed thugs. The wife could only tolerate the recoil of a .22LR, and they had purchased a semi auto target style pistol to have as their "house gun". While the thugs beat and stabbed her husband, she managed to get away to the bedroom and retrieved the pistol, and returned to the aid of her husband. Coming up behind one of the perps who didn't see her, she efficiently put 2 rounds in the middle of his back. At the sound of the shots (.22LR is LOUD in a house) the attackers both fled. The guy with 2 rounds in him made it just outside the house where he collapsed in the dirt (remote house as I recall), only to then have his lights permanently turned off by his accomplice who drove over him in a truck while trying to escape. I do believe that .22LR has a role in self defence, and arguably, it has one of the most significant roles, because it is used so often.

PS - I love stories that have happy endings ;)

[XD-40 Shooter]

A hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a 45.:neener: I agree, just the thought of being shot with anything is a significant deterrent. A 22 is far from ideal, but a whole lot better than nothing. I also like the idea of emptying the magazine into his face.:D

[trickyasafox]

CCI Mini Mags I think are a great all around 22 round.

[sm]

Newton,

I am the eldest of four and when I was a kid, armed persons busted down the front door and I stopped that threat with a .22 revolver.
I started shooting that gun at age 3.

I would fire that gun again to defend myself, or those I had responsibility for.
Just information and I own these things and have to live with my life experiences.

I and mine have given away guns to folks in need. Some of these guns were .22 caliber for various reasons.
I have been just outside of a curtain when the rape kit was done, more than once.


So my Perspectives are not only shaped by the era I was raised in, and how Mentored, also history:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3820341&postcount=14

Reality is real, and there are many that post replies that are just parroting of what they read, saw on TV, some movie or other source.

Some know and have to live the rest of their life with what they have had to do, in real life matters.

A .22 revolver with standard pressure 40 gr lrn will have a person stop what they are doing to a lady on the ground, blouse ripped open and panties pulled down and...
I know, I know all to well it will.

I do not have to qualify, and will not go further.

[Newton]

sm

Sounds like the .22 has done you and your family good service. Well done, you should be proud.

[BlindJustice]

I have a S&W 617 6" Bbl. with the 10 shot cylinder. I have the full size Hogue grips in Coco Bolo wood. I'd love to have a K-frame in the same 10 shot cylinder but a 3" Bll. and compact grips with finger grooves & checkering for an option fto have for fun, as well as a gun I could give to a
person with little experience and they could figure it out with little problem .

I also like the new offering of the Kit gun S&W Model 63 with an 8 shot cylinder but let's have a 3" Bbl. Len. offiering for balance/handling.

heck S&W lists the Model 317 as a DUty/Carry piece - as a primary handgun?
SOrry gals but is this for wimmin llawyers or what ?

[sm]

Re: 317

It was my understanding that gun was designed for two main reasons.
1. Physically Limited Persons
2. Quality practice with .22 for a center-fire.

Another was, a simple , light woods-walking , property, trap-line, fishing gun.

Back in the day the J frame .22 was used for quality lessons and practice for J frame .38 snub nose.

Model 18 a K frame, in .22 cal, was used for quality lessons and practice for K frames.

Police Depts did this.
Colt has .22 gun like the .38spl guns too.

So we have always "believed" a .22 firearm like a center fire was just smart.
Not just handguns, rifles too.

317 filled a niche, as mfgs quit making a small .22 revolver.
We have an aging society, add computers and Carpal Tunnel and S&W filled a niche - again.

Lots of folks bought these, and I know some THR members, and their families that use a 317 for defense -as they are physically limited.

Teaching tool for new shooters - lots of these for new shooters including kids.
These 317s fit kids hands.
Learning to shoot a revolver is still the way I assist, as that is how I was raised.

Duty gun/Carry gun?

Yep, 82 year old lady with a hip replacement, and that gun does not hurt her to carry concealed. Recoil does not bother a wrist /hand either, with arthritis.

317 is just a old concept brought back.

S&W needs to bring back the J frame 32 cal as well...

[Valkman]

I know a young lady that carries a Beretta .22 - Bobcat I think. Is it legal? No. Would I rather see a bigger caliber? Of course. But thank God she has begun to protect herself, legal or not, and we'll work on calibers and permits later.

[nitestocker]

i feel pretty confident with a 22 first the 22 i have is a colt 22 targetsman my dad used it to kill our cows growing up he killed a lot of outher animals as well . i watch those cows drop right to the ground another thing he could shoot bottle caps of a tree as fast as you could pull the trigger im not that good but what im saying is i can shoot a coke bottle very fast and keep on target with mini mags i feel very safe . there is very little barrel jump so you can keep on target now this being said for a human and this pistol i would feel safe. for a dangerous animal no. do i carry a 22 for protection no. i carry ether my 357 or cz40p i do feel safer with a larger caliber

[Wheeler44]

Kind of funny but just this weekend I explained to a new shooter (BRAND NEW SHOOTER) that I could run faster on two good legs than anyone can with shotout kneecaps.

[dagger dog]

i used to shoot stingers out of my beretta mdl 21a .22lr. while out plinking at a dump site decided to do a little penetration study at 7 feet, target being a discarded refrigerator door. they would not penetrate the outer skin at that distance, not even crack the metal, left a dent maybe 1/4" deep and bounced off.
the bbl. on this pocket auto not including the chamber is
1 1/2", all the extra velocity of the stingers was for naught through that short of a bbl. i think 6" bbl is minimum to use the extra velocity ammo and see any gain. but that 6" bbl puts the pistol relvolver out of the pocket.
now i load solids 40 gr rn. the little beretta fits in any pocket dead reliable if you do your part and keep it clean, double action on the first shot has that tip up bbl so it's easy to load unload safley . if called upon , it's there and can put several shots into an eye, temple, nasal cavity, with enough authority to make the reciepient call it off.

[1911Tuner]

Again...The little pocket .22s are last-ditch, do-or-die belly guns, probably at their best when fired repeatedly into the soft mid-section of an attacker who has you in a bad spot and you've been unable to hold him at arm's length.

Sounds cold. Is cold. Personal, mano e mano life and death struggles can get ugly. The possible alternatives are a marble slab and a toe tag, or learning to pilot a wheelchair.

[sqlbullet]

Two memories from my youth kept running my head as I read these posts.

First, memories as a young man slaughtering cows on the farm. We raised two or so a year for beef for our family and some friends. We would drop them with a single shot from a 22. The always went straight down.

Second, a funeral. A boy went off the deep end and tried to kill his parents with a 22. The funeral was for the mother. I don't recall where she was shot, but died from the wound. The father was shot repeatedly in the face. The hits bounced off cheek bones, ricocheted off teeth and more bone and either lodged or exited. He was out of the hospital in a day or two, and I saw him at the visitation.

If you must use a 22 for defense, it is shot placement. Two inch group accuracy isn't really good enough with this cartridge. You better be able to hit a dime first shot every time at self-defense ranges. Under pressure.

Clearly reliability is critical in any firearm for defense. But in this caliber, it better be reliable and accurate.

[GoldenLoki]

Here are some gel tests results.

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm