Small concealable 9mm's


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19-3Ben
February 28, 2008, 11:09 PM
DISCLAIMER- Ok so this is really a WAY over-done topic, and I know that using the search I could find infinite numbers of threads on this topic, but this isn't asking for info. It's just asking if I'm missing something.

I am looking to replace my Sig P232. I love the gun. But honestly, it is oversized for a round as weak as the .380. I personally feel like the .380 is now relegated to the world of pocket guns. I also don't really trust the blowback action, and i don't like the mag release on it.
I want to replace it with a small 9mm.
Glock- is out. They don't fit my hand well.
XD subcompact- also out. I don't like the way XDs balance. It's like a peg-legged hippo. All the weight is on top and it's all wobbly.
Taurus mil pro- I don't trust their customer service, and products. I've seen good ones, and bad ones (like any company), but I'd rather not gamble on them making it right.
Kahr CW9- I've heard problems with QC and with customer service, otherwise, i'd be all over it.
Kel-tec PF9- gonna get that anyway. I'm looking for something a tad bigger here.

My primary candidate is the new M&Pc. I just got the full sized M&P and LOVE it. to have a smaller carry gun that shares mags, especially with their current rebate... i mean it's almost too good to be true. I just want to be sure that I am not missing any guns in that general price range.

Also, do you think the M&Pc is thick enough that it will make a difference in how it conceals compared to the slim P232? I have compared the thickness of my M&P to the P232, and it's a good deal thicker. On the other hand, i conceal my Ruger SP101 with no problems at all.

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senorlinc
February 28, 2008, 11:15 PM
as it would happen, i used to carry a p232til about 4 years ago...traded it for a glock but, like you, found it uncomfortable to handle as well as conceal....i now carry a m&p 9c in a mtac iwb. while it is a bit thicker than the sig, it is lighter and comfortable and easy to conceal in the holster i have. im slim frame and 5'11 and you really cant see this thing on my ss hip at 330-4:00.

19-3Ben
February 28, 2008, 11:34 PM
Nice. I too am slim at 160lbs, and 5'11. Sounds like a winner.

newkahrman
February 28, 2008, 11:49 PM
I had a m&p and now have a kahr cw9. For conceal carry and just fun to shoot the kahr is great. I had some problems with wolf ammo, but everything else has been flawless. The kahr is a high quality pistol. I was sold on the slimness of the kahr, it is very comfortable to carry, low recoil for such a small frame gun, accurate, and still under $450. We are all different though. I don't think you would go wrong with either of these guns.

DENALI
February 29, 2008, 01:03 AM
I've heard this objection many times about Glock pistols and then seen the same person excel with them after some good tutoring. I also own the M&P 9c and like it's handling qualities, I also like the trigger on them. Not the pull but the shape of it vs the Glock, the Glock always bites my finger on the reset. One thing about the M&P, it's a little more complex than the Glock, having multiple takedown levers, it's not to be dry-fired, and certain types of ammo are verboten! It's black melonite finish is also only a surface treatment so don't expect it to avoid corrosion as the Glock does.
I own both pistols, and I like both pistols, I'm just stating my observations about them. The M&P is also new as a model, so expect some tweaking and debugging over the next few years.
Head to head, IMO it's not quite the match of the Glock in strength and durability although the gap is greatly narrowed, the M&P, at least mine, is more accurate than either my G-17 or G-19. It's also bigger then the G-26, it's direct competitor.....

NWdude83
February 29, 2008, 03:25 AM
<--- CW9 owner

usp9
February 29, 2008, 06:25 AM
Get a HK P7. It is the same size as the P232 it is replacing, though a bit heavier. Yes, that is a P7 hiding under the P232 in the photo.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/P232onP7.jpg

jwxspoon
February 29, 2008, 06:57 AM
Take a look at the kel-Tec P11 also. I have both the PF9 and the P11. The P11 normally carries 10 in the magazine, but you can find LE magazines that will hold 12. That gives you 13 rounds in an extremely light and small pistol - in fact the only 9mm that is smaller would be the PF9.

jw

jon_in_wv
February 29, 2008, 07:01 AM
I carry an M&P 9c with a S&W 337 as a pocket gun and a P32 as my deep concealment gun. I am also getting a Ruger LCP for that duty. I am REALLY happy with my M&P. I've said many times before, I can't imagine how good a gun would have to be to replace my M&P. I used carry a KT P11. The M&P required a little more effort in the way of choosing a good holster to carry it but it is SO much more better to shoot quickly and accurately than the P11. The PF-9 is a very tempting weapon though. It is extremely small and light for its caliber, has good sights, a good trigger, and it really looks like a winner to me.

takhtakaal
February 29, 2008, 08:33 AM
If it absolutely, positively has to be a nine, and tiny, try and find a Colt Pocket Nine that isn't pricier than platinum.

http://www.pearcegrip.com/images/pocket9.jpg
Shown with a Pearce grip extension.

Here's one that has collector written all over it: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=93313804

Here's a discussion of micro-pistols: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=251766

19-3Ben
February 29, 2008, 08:37 AM
I've heard this objection many times about Glock pistols and then seen the same person excel with them after some good tutoring.

Denali I really appreciate all your advice, and your own personal experience with the M&Pc. It's not that I have anything against glock, in fact, I shoot them better than I shoot many other pistols. I really like Glocks. They just don't fit my hand well. As such, I won't get one, because they just feel "wrong" to me.
USP9- If I had the money to buy a P7, i'd be all over it, and the $50 rebate for the M&P would mean nothing. Unfortunately, I just don't have the coin.

JWXSPOON- I feel like Kel-tec is great for deep concealment. I handled my friend's P11 and while it was a nice gun, if I am going to get something that small, I might as well just get a PF9 which, as I said, i am going to get anyway.
:cool:
Perhaps I'll look into the CW9 more closely. ugh. here I pretty much had my mind made up and now you guys had to go ahead and enlighten me and now I'm all buggered up again.

Takhtakaal- Way out of my price range, but those are neat guns.

chupacabrah
February 29, 2008, 09:00 AM
I'll keep an eye on this thread to see what you end up getting, I'll be looking for a conceal piece sometime next year.



I love my MP9 fullsize also :)

surjimmy
February 29, 2008, 09:06 AM
KAHR.....KAHR.....KAHR....KAHR. You might take a look a Kahr, love mine. same size as a PPK but in a 9mm or 40 cal.

wingman
February 29, 2008, 09:13 AM
KAhr MK9, excellent compact, accurate and no problems after 2 years
and many rounds of reloads and commerical ammo.

romma
February 29, 2008, 09:40 AM
I like the light weight of the Kahr PM9

tinygnat219
February 29, 2008, 11:41 AM
Heh...

Get yourself a S&W 3913. Often considered the best S&W auto ever made.

kymarkh
February 29, 2008, 11:52 AM
I'm in the market for a small 9mm myself and have narrowed it down to the G26 or the CW9. I'm looking for something low maintenance and reasonably priced.

I really wanted to like the PF9 and have tried several of them, but I like to shoot at least 100 rounds or so each trip to the range and I'm not convinced that it would last very long at that pace. I don't think it was really designed for high volume practice sessions.

19-3Ben
February 29, 2008, 11:57 AM
To all who are suggesting Kahr... all f their guns but the CW's are out of my price range. You're talking to a law school student. Student = very little money at the moment. Perhaps after a few years in practice when I start to make money it will be an option for for now $500 and less is the goal.
I do appreciate how finely made they are, and as soon as I make any money, a kahr is one of the first items on the short list!!!!

Tough Guy Levi
February 29, 2008, 11:59 AM
Howdy:

13,800+ rounds with nary any problems. Has been 100% reliable since purchased new June 05!


Tough Guy Levi
SASS#61430
NRA Cert. Pistol Inst.

PS: Kahr will be introducing a new Kahr .380- look for photos on website within a week or two!!!!

jon_in_wv
February 29, 2008, 01:52 PM
An M&P can be found pretty easily in the 350-400 dollar range. Often they can be had with a hoster too. Check the M&P forum.

Rex B
February 29, 2008, 02:03 PM
I have had 3 P11 keltecs. Nothing fits my hand better in a similar size. I tried the PF9, but the single stack reduces capacity, and it has no 2nd strike capability. A lot of early adopters have since bailed and gone back to the P11. I'll stick with the P11.
I recently stumbled across an Astra A75L. This is an all-metal gun that is almost the exact same size as my P11 and only a little heavier. It's also DA/SA and has a decock/safety. Very nicely made, apparently on a CZ pattern. If you can find one, buy it.
But you know, my daily carry is still a P3AT.

skinewmexico
February 29, 2008, 03:11 PM
especially with their current rebate... i mean it's almost too good to be true.

Yeah, it is. I wonder why no other manufacture is doing that? Guess S&W is just a really nice company. Or can't move their inventory. Nah, nice company.

austin360
February 29, 2008, 03:44 PM
I have the Para Ordnance Carry 9.

http://http://www.paraord.com/product/CWX79Rphoto.jpg

austin360
February 29, 2008, 03:46 PM
what happened here?

austin360
February 29, 2008, 03:47 PM
Para Ordnance Carry 9, CWX79R

http://www.para-lda.com/images/pistols/CWX79Rright.jpg

MarcusWendt
February 29, 2008, 04:07 PM
it's not to be dry-fired, and certain types of ammo are verboten

Allow me to correct some erroneous information being posted here.

S&W states that their firearms can be dry fired with a few exceptions, M&P is not in the exception category.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...tionId=10504#2


As to certain ammo being "verboten" we should call that a wash since it is common knowledge that you should fire cast lead bullets or reload .40 S&W out of Glocks.

Crimp
February 29, 2008, 06:29 PM
you may want to look at the new Walther PPS.

yhtomit
February 29, 2008, 06:50 PM
As to certain ammo being "verboten" we should call that a wash since it is common knowledge that you should fire cast lead bullets or reload .40 S&W out of Glocks.

Ought that read
"common knowledge that you should not fire cast lead bullets or reload .40 S&W out of Glocks."?

The Lone Haranguer
February 29, 2008, 06:51 PM
CZ75 Compact, PCR, P-01 or 2075 RAMI should be on your list in addition to the others, as well as a used S&W 3913 or its variants (finishes and DA/SA or DAO triggers).

jon_in_wv
February 29, 2008, 09:44 PM
yhtomit, its called sarcasm. I have two teen agers, I recognized it immediately.

Wineoceros
March 1, 2008, 10:58 AM
One thing about the M&P, it's a little more complex than the Glock, having multiple takedown levers, it's not to be dry-fired
I have to wonder why this bit of misinformation keeps being posted here even though it has been *repeatedly* identified as being false.

bsf
March 1, 2008, 05:28 PM
.......It's black melonite finish is also only a surface treatment so don't expect it to avoid corrosion as the Glock does......
Being that it is stainless steel, corrosion is not much of a concern.

Hawaiian
March 1, 2008, 08:59 PM
I carry my Kahr PM9 more that any other gun. It makes a great pocket gun in a FIST thin kydex pocket holster. Also carry on it IWB. I added a pearce grip extension as my pinky needs to be on the grip, not under the butt of the gun. And an Agrip which made a huge improvement in grip and felt recoil.

jon_in_wv
March 2, 2008, 09:29 AM
Multiple takedown levers? What the heck? The M&P has ONE takedown lever. It also has a disconnect that can be pushed out of the way to avoid having to dry-fire the weapon to remove the slide. You CAN do it by pulling the trigger but its not an issue of damaging the weapon its a safety issue. Smith wanted you to be able to dis-assemble the weapon for cleaning with having to pull the trigger. Seems to me to be a good thing.

BTW, the parts count of the Glock and M&P are nearly identical and the design is so similar to keep harping about the Glock having a superior design is a bit hypocritical.

afvoo52
March 2, 2008, 11:42 AM
I have the kel-Tec P11 and love it. I get 2 inch 5 shot groups double action at 50 feet offhand with the right ammo and a good shooting day, never had any FTF's. I use Gold Dot 124gr +p carry in this gun. The S&W 3913 is the best shooting 9mm I ever owned period, shot circles around my H&K USP compact 9mm. The only issue with the S&W is the magazine safety, you can't shoot it without one, though I know you can put light pressure ( about a 1/8 inch pull back ) on the trigger as you drop the mag and it will fire, not sure if the new M&P has the same design. The M&P guns have had growing issues with jams and some FTF's on some guns. Go to the mp-pistol.com forums for more info. I owned an XD40 and it was a good gun but the grip angle made me instinctively shoot a bit low and I had to adjust for this.

I own several CZ gun and cannot say enough good, own both 40's and nine's. The PO-1 is an excellent gun but may be too large for your needs. I have also owned Glocks, reliable usually good accuracy but again the grip angle problem, you also have to be constamtly aware of your trigger finger or you may get glocked! Hard to beat the 3913 but limited mag capacity may not meet your needs either.

Chortdraw
March 2, 2008, 11:58 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/Chortdraw/DSCF0014.jpg

Alan Fud
March 2, 2008, 01:41 PM
Get either a Smith & Wession 3913TSW or a Colt Pocket Nine ...

http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f135.jpg

sfmittels
March 4, 2008, 08:17 AM
For me, the choices come down to exactly two: the Walther PPS and the Kahr PM9. They both are roughly the size of a Walther PPK, but are full-power 9mms that weigh 20 ounces or less.

Personally, I didn't like the feel of the PPS, so I bought a Kahr PM9. Then, to put the icing on the cake, I bought my PM9 directly from Cylinder & Slide gunsmiths, where they performed an additional $500 worth of magic. Why did I spend that much extra money on an already-expensive firearm? 1) As Clint Smith says: "Because you can"; and 2) my ass is worth the extra investment in my primary CCW weapon.

This Kahr PM9 is a wonder. It weighs only about 16 ounces dry, yet it will hold 6 + 1 rounds of +P 9mms (7 + 1 with the included extended magazine). Cylinder & Slide did a trigger job, polished about everything possible, and added XS Tritium sights. XS sights are not designed for precision work: they're designed for rapid target acquisition, day or night. And they work. The trigger is like a very well-tuned S&W revolver. This little beast has been 100% reliable since the first round fired. The ergos are great; it's surprisingly controllable despite the light weight.

IMO, in this age of light weight and great metallurgy, there's no reason to carry a CCW piece that weighs more than 20 ounces. I absolutely love my SIG P239s, but they're bricks compared to the Kahr.

DougDubya
March 4, 2008, 08:54 AM
IMO, in this age of light weight and great metallurgy, there's no reason to carry a CCW piece that weighs more than 20 ounces. I absolutely love my SIG P239s, but they're bricks compared to the Kahr.

Comfort and recoil control while shooting. :)

jdjohnston
March 4, 2008, 09:26 AM
Although you might not believe from my experience (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=344958)so far in shooting the Kahr PM9, I would say definitely, IMHO, it is one of the better CCW small handguns. Very easy to carry in different situations and locations. Pocket, holster, etc and I think it also is a weapon you can take to the range and have some fun firing while becoming proficient in a smaller weapon.

harmonic
March 4, 2008, 09:38 AM
Not exactly what you're asking, but I did this comparison before I bought my last CCW (Sig 239 SAS). I included the Sig 232 cause I used to own one. It gave me a familiar frame of reference. I also stuck the Ruger in there cause I'm thinking of buying one of those.

Overall length in inches
Sig 232, 380 cal: 6.60
Ruger 380: 5.16
Walther PPS 9mm: 6.3
Sig 239: 6.6
G26: 6.29
G19: 6.85
HK USP Compact: 6.81

Overall height in inches
Sig 232, 380 cal: 4.70
Ruger 380: 3.6
Walther PPS 9mm: 4.4
Sig 239: 5.1
G26: 4.17
G19: 5.0
HK USP Compact: 5.0

Overall width in inches
Sig 232, 380 cal: 1.20
Ruger 380: .820
Walther PPS 9mm: 1.04
Sig 239: 1.2
G26: 1.18
G19: 1.18
HK USP Compact: 1.14

Weight unloaded in ounces
Sig 232, 380 cal: 17.6
Ruger 380: 9.4
Walther PPS 9mm: 19.4
Sig 239: 27.5
G26: 19.75
G19: 20.99
HK USP Compact: 23.52

Weight loaded in ounces
Sig 232, 380 cal:
Ruger 380: (Not given)
Walther PPS 9mm: N/A
Sig 239: 29.7
G26: 26.10
G19: 29.98
HK USP Compact: N/A

Standard magazine capacity
Sig 232, 380 cal: 7
Ruger 380: 6
Walther PPS 9mm: 7 or 8, depending upon magazine: one of each provided
Sig 239: 8
G26: 10 rounds
G19: 15 rounds
HK USP Compact: 13 rounds

Trigger pull
Sig 232, 380 cal: DA/SA 10.0 lbs/ 4.5 lbs
Ruger 380: 8 pounds
Walther PPS 9mm: 6.1 pounds
Sig 239: DA: 10.0 pounds; SA: 4.5 pounds
G26: 5.5 pounds
G19: 5.5 pounds
HK USP Compact: N/A

I chose the Sig over the Glock 26 cause I like being able to visually see the hammer is down. Although my nightstand gun is a Glock 17 (somehow 17 shots seems comforting), I still haven't gotten used to carrying Glock with the chamber loaded.

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